Why It's So Hard to Make Friends as an Adult

Summary

旅行や趣味を通じて友情を築くことをテーマにしたエピソード。メキシコ旅行から帰ってきたドリューが、メキシコシティの美食や歴史に感銘を受けたことを報告。また、成人後の友情の維持方法について、マークとドリューが議論した。彼らは、プロクシミティ、頻度、持続時間、感情的強さという4つの要素が友情形成に影響を与えると述べ、現代生活がこれらの要素を複雑にし如何在しました。最後に、彼らは趣味や興味を深めることで友情を築くことを提案し、参加するグループやイベントを積極的に取り入れることの重要性を強調した。

Takeaways

• 🌍 メキシコ城の美食と歴史が印象的である。
• 🏃 誕生日にマラソンを走るという目標を設定したが、実際にはタコスを巡る「マラソン」を楽しんだ。
• 🚜 録音が始まると、外で割草機の音が響き、録音のタイミングが常に奇異である。
• 🏆 「The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Podcast」のホストはMark Mansonである。
• 🕴️ 初めて盗まれた経験と、その際の状況以及つの生み出される「ライフスタイル税」の存在。
• 🌎 旅行が友情を深める不思議な方法であること。
• 👫 成人間の友情を築くのは、若い頃の友情と比べて難しい。
• 🔍 心理学者の研究によると、友情は接近度、頻度、持続時間、情熱の強さ（共有の興味や経験）の4つの要素で決まる。
• 🏢 遠距離ワークや仕事の移転が、職場での友情築きに影響を与える。
• 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 結婚や子供を持つことで、友情の形が変化し、新たな複雑さが加わる。
• 🤝 成人間の友情は、互いの成長と変化を理解し、それを共有することで深まる。

Q & A

メキシコ城の食べ物と歴史についてどう思いますか？

メキシコ城は食べ物と歴史において非常に優れていると感じました。タコス、ガクチャ、トルティージャなどが手作りで美味しく、メキシコ城の歴史や文化に深く根ざしています。

メキシコ旅行中に得た3つの教訓は何ですか？

첫째, 메キシ코 시티는 음식과 역사에서 훌륭합니다. 둘째, 저는 처음으로 빼앗기 당했습니다. 셋째, 여행은 인격 간의 친밀감을 구축하는 기이한한 방법입니다.

メキシコ旅行中に盗まれたのは何ですか？

旅行中に携帯電話が盗まれました。

盗まれた時の状況を教えてください

盗まれたのは、メキシコのアステカ競技場でのサッカー観戦中にいました。人込みの中で携帯電話を前面のポケットに入れていたのですが、突然3人の女性が殴り合い始め、混雑の中で誰かが私のポケットから携帯電話を盗みました。

成人の友情とは何でしょうか？

成人の友情は、若い時の友情とは異なり、より深い情熱や共有された経験に基づいています。時間や空間の近さ、会う頻度、共に過ごす時間の長さ、そして共感や経験の強さに基づいて形成されます。

成人の友情を築くためにはどのようなことが重要ですか？

成人の友情を築くためには、地理的な近さ、会う頻度、共に過ごす時間の長さ、そして共感や経験の強さが重要です。また、趣味や関心を通じて出会い、継続的な交流を続けることが大切です。

旅行が友情を深める方法としてどのように機能するのですか？

旅行は、日常環境から離れ、新しい経験を共有する機会を提供することで友情を深めます。異国文化や共同の目標追求によって、より深い個人的なつながりを感じることができます。

リモートワークはどのように友情に影響を与えるのですか？

リモートワークは、職場での友人との出会いやコミュニケーションの機会を減らすことがあり、友情の築き方や維持に影響を与える可能性があります。しかし、一方で、リモートワークがもたらす柔軟性や自由度は、新たな友人との出会いや交流の機会を増やすこともできます。

子供やパートナーが友情にどのように影響を与えるのですか？

子供やパートナーがいると、友情の選択や築き方にも影響を与えることがあります。カップルや家族との相互関係を考慮しなければならず、自由時間の使い方も制限されることがあります。しかし、一方で、子供やパートナーを通じて新たな友人との出会いや友情の機会が得られることもあります。

友情が変わることについてどう思いますか？

友情は時間や状況の変化によって変わることがあります。人生の各段階で自分が変わり、新しい興味や価値観を発展するにつれ、友情も進化し、新しい形態を受け入れることができます。

友情を維持するためにはどのような努力が必要ですか？

友情を維持するためには、時間とエネルギーを投資し、友人とのコミュニケーションや共有経験を積極的に追求する必要があります。また、友人の変化を受け入れ、関係の進化に柔軟に対応することも重要です。

Outlines

00:00

🎉 メキシコ旅行の3つの教訓

第1段落では、話者はメキシコ旅行の経験から得た3つの教訓について語ています。メキシコシティの美食と歴史に感銘を受け、自らの目標であるマラソンを跑るという意気込みを語ります。しかし、実際には「タコスのマラソン」を楽しんでいました。また、旅行中に盗まれた経験についても話し、その際の状況や感じを詳しく述べています。

05:02

🤔 成人間の友情とは

第2段落では、成人後の友情について語ります。読者からの質問に基づいて、友情を築く方法や、良い友情を見つける方法、友情を成長させる方法について話し始めます。心理学者の研究に基づいて、友情を形成する4つの要素（接近性、頻度、持続性、情熱）について説明し、現代生活がこれらの要素を複雑にし如何在回します。

10:02

🏃‍♂️ 頻度と持続性の重要性

第3段落では、頻度と持続性が友情形成にどのように影響するかについて詳しく説明します。例えば、リモートワークや頻繁な仕事の変更、旅行の習慣などが友情の形成を難しくしている理由として挙げられます。これらの要因が現代の生活においてどのように友情を複雑にし、どのように対処するかが議論されています。

15:06

💑 パートナーと子供による影響

第4段落では、パートナーや子供が友情に与える影響について話します。結婚や子供の誕生によって、友情の形成がより複雑になる理由を説明します。例えば、カップル間の互いに認め合う必要性や、子供同士の関係が親の友情に与える影響などについて語ります。

20:06

🧒 子供との関係

第5段落では、子供との関係が友情にどのように影響するかについて話しますが、特に子供がいることや、親としての経験が友情の動向を変える方法について深く掘り下げています。子供が友情に与える影響や、親としての視点からの友情の変化についても触れています。

25:07

🤝 友情の進化と変化

第6段落では、友情がどのように進化し、どのように変化するかについて話し始めます。例えば、趣味や興味、生活スタイルの変化が友情に与える影響について詳しく述べています。また、友情の狭まりや、どのように新しい友情を築くことができるかについても話しています。

30:07

🎯 友情を築くためのアドバイス

最後の段落では、友情を築くための具体的なアドバイスを提供します。興味やホビーに熱心に取り組むことや、グループや活動に参加すること、そして人に優しく接することが必要です。また、友情の重要性についても再確認し、どのように友情を大切にするかを提案しています。

Keywords

💡メキシコ城

メキシコ城は、食事と歴史において非常に重要な地位を持つ都市です。この都市は、タコスやガク、トルティージャなどの伝統的なメキシコ料理で知られ、それらは手作りで焼かれます。この都市の食事文化は、アステカ人の手によって作られたと叙情的に表現されています。

💡マラソン

マラソンは、このコンテキストでは運動イベントではなく、タコスをたくさん食べることを意味しています。主人公は自分自身の誕生日にマラソンを走ることを目標にしていたにもかかわらず、実際にはタコスをたくさん食べることに焦点を当てています。

💡ローマネス

ローマネスとは、他人との恋愛関係を楽しむことや、そのような関係を通じて自己を成長させることを指す概念です。このポッドキャストでは、ゲストがローマネスを通じて自己成長を促すことについて話しているシーンがあります。

💡親友

親友とは、非常に近い友人関係を指す言葉です。このポッドキャストでは、親友との関係を維持し、どのように良好な親友関係を築くかについて議論されています。親友は、自分自身の人生において重要で支持的な役割を果たすことが多い人々のことを指します。

💡リモートワーク

リモートワークは、自宅や遠隔地から仕事を行うことを指します。このポッドキャストでは、リモートワークが職場での人間関係にどのように影響を与えているかについて話し及んでいます。リモートワークは、職場でのコミュニケーションやチームワークを向上させる可能性がある一方で、遠隔地での作業がもたらす孤独感やつながりを失う可能性も指摘されています。

💡孤独感

孤独感は、孤独を感じることを指す感情状態です。このポッドキャストでは、現代社会においてなぜ多くの人が孤独感を感じるのか、そしてどのようにその孤独感を軽減するかについて議論されています。孤独感は、人間が社会的なつながりを失ったときに経験する感情であり、それは人々の心身の健康に悪影響を及ぼす可能性があります。

💡自己理解

自己理解は、自分自身について深く理解することです。このポッドキャストでは、自己理解がどのように人々の人生や選択に影響を与えるかについて話し及んでいます。自己理解は、自分自身の価値観、目標、強み、弱みを理解し、自分自身と向き合うことを意味します。

💡キャリア

キャリアとは、職業や仕事に関する道を指します。このポッドキャストでは、キャリアの選択や進歩、成功に関連するトピックが取り上げられています。キャリアは、個人の自己実現や社会的成功に重要な役割を果たすことが一般的に認識されています。

💡社会関係

社会関係とは、個人が他の人々とのつながりを築くことや、それらの関係を維持することを指します。このポッドキャストでは、社会関係の重要性や、どのように良好な社会関係を築く方法について議論されています。社会関係は、人々の幸福感や生活の質に大きく影響を与えることがあります。

💡ストレス

ストレスは、心身が圧力や困難に直面した際に感じる不快な感情や、物理的な負担を指します。このポッドキャストでは、ストレスがどのように人々の生活や心身の健康に影響を与えるか、そしてどのようにストレスを管理するかについて話し及んでいます。ストレス管理は、健康的な生活を送るために重要なスキルです。

💡自己啓発

自己啓発とは、自分自身の成長や改善を目指して行う活動や学習を指します。このポッドキャストでは、自己啓発の方法やその重要性について議論されています。自己啓発は、個人が自己実現や幸福感を高めるために必要なプロセスであり、様々な形態で行われることがあります。

💡幸福感

幸福感とは、個人が満足感や幸福を感じることを指します。このポッドキャストでは、幸福感がどのように人生の質に影響を与えるか、そしてどのように幸福感を高めることができるかについて話し及んでいます。幸福感は、人々の心の健康や生活の満足度に重要な役割を果たすことが一般的に認められています。

Highlights

Mexico City's food and history scene punches above its weight, offering an exceptional culinary and cultural experience.

The guest shares his goal of running a marathon on his birthday, humorously stating he ran a 'marathon of tacos' instead.

The unexpected robbery experience in Mexico City, highlighting the well-coordinated tactics used by thieves.

The concept of a 'lifestyle tax' is introduced, where the cost of enjoying certain experiences or lifestyles comes with its own set of challenges or drawbacks.

The idea that travel can build intimacy among friends, even without spending more time together than usual.

The common struggle of maintaining adult friendships, especially beyond the age of 25, and the desire for practical advice on the topic.

Four key variables that psychologists believe influence the quality of friendships: proximity, frequency, duration, and emotional intensity.

The impact of remote work on the ability to form and maintain work-related friendships, and the tension between wanting flexibility and desiring social connections.

The increasing frequency of job changes and its effect on the development of long-lasting friendships.

The role of travel and disposable income in complicating the formation of stable friendships due to constant movement and absence.

The complexity added to friendships by factors such as marriage, partners, and children, and the need for mutual approval and compatibility.

The evolution of friendships as individuals go through life changes, such as becoming parents, and the need for patience and openness to these changes.

The narrowing of potential friendships as individuals progress in their self-discovery and life achievements, leading to more selective social circles.

The importance of focusing on hobbies and interests as a strategy for forming new friendships in adulthood.

The value of joining groups and participating in activities to meet like-minded individuals and potential friends.

The necessity of follow-ups in maintaining and developing friendships, and the importance of being proactive in social connections.

Transcripts

- So, Drew, I just got back from Mexico

and I spent my birthday down there with some friends.

It was a great time.

I have three takeaways.

The first is that Mexico City punches way above its weight

in terms of food and history.

I always knew the food in Mexico was good,

but holy shit.

The tacos, the guac, the tortillas, man.

I could bathe in tortillas made in Mexico City,

hand padded and baked by the hands of the Aztecs.

It was phenomenal.

Long-time listeners know that I set a goal

of running a marathon on my birthday.

A lot of people texted me, said,

"Hey, how's the marathon going?"

My response was, "I'm running a marathon of tacos

and it is going quite well."

Literally, the second we turned on, hit Record,

there's a lawnmower outside my window.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

It's like he was fucking waiting for us to hit Record.

Why does this always happen?

I feel like someone is paying a yards man

to follow me around and wait until I record anything

and then turn on a lawnmower the second I start.

God.

- [Announcer] Bro, do you even podcast?

Like, bro.

This is the "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Podcast"

with your host, Mark Manson.

(upbeat music)

- Second takeaway, I got robbed for the first time ever.

- Okay, I've been dying to hear this.

(Mark laughing)

What happened?

- First of all, I was long overdue.

I spent many, many years living in developing countries,

and I resigned myself very early on of like, "You know what?

One day, I'm gonna get robbed.

That's just the cost of living in a place like this."

And ironically, I never got robbed.

So I was always just like mentally prepared for it

and then it never happened.

Well, of course, I go on this quick three-day trip.

It literally happened on my birthday, had my phone stolen,

but I gotta give the guys credit 'cause they did it well.

This was no-bullshit job.

Like, this was well-coordinated, well-thought-out.

So we went to a soccer game at Estadio Azteca,

and we were huge crowd of people

waiting to get into the stadium.

And I had my phone in my front pocket,

and I felt like I was aware, knew what was happening.

And it's so funny, dude, like instinct kicks in.

About five minutes later,

a group of girls breaks out in a fist fight

literally right next to me.

Like, three Mexican girls pulling hair,

just wailing on each other, closed fists.

And the crowd starts getting pushed around and I'm like,

"Holy fucking shit,"

and my immediate instinct is to reach out and grab my wife,

and put her behind me, and make sure like she's okay.

And then two seconds later, I realize,

"Oh, shit, that's the mistake."

And as soon as I put my hand in my pocket, the phone's gone.

And so it's...

Clearly, the girls were in on it.

Clearly, there was somebody behind me

who was in position and ready to do it.

Of course, I'm like the only gringo in the whole place

so I stick out like a sore thumb.

So after it happened, I was like, "Okay, well-played.

You got me."

There is a lesson here, which is, I think,

and I apply this in a lot of areas of my life,

which is most good things in life have some sort of,

I just call them a tax, like a lifestyle tax, right?

Like, when you buy your dream home,

you're gonna be responsible

for the upkeep of that dream home.

Like, stuff's gonna break, you're gonna plumbing problems.

Your neighbor might be an asshole.

Like, that is just the unspoken lifestyle tax

of owning that dream home.

If you want to go on vacation

on the other side of the world,

you're gonna deal with long flights

and lots of layovers,

and there's more opportunities

for unexpected things to happen.

That's just the tax of booking such a epic, massive trip.

And if you're gonna spend a lot of time

in developing parts of the world,

you're gonna put yourself in situations

where you can get robbed and/or pickpocketed rather.

And I accepted a long time ago

that that is simply a lifestyle tax of loving

and being in these parts of the world.

So they finally got me, I made it to 40, unscathed.

And then the day I crossed the finish line.

- You got off pretty easy, too.

You weren't like robbed at knife point

or anything like that,

which you hear stories of that,

- It can get a lot, lot worse.

Yeah, there are some real horror stories.

Third takeaway is travel is this weird way

of building intimacy.

It's interesting.

So we went down there with a group of friends

that we've known here in LA for a while

and we've hung out with them a bunch.

But even though we didn't spend any more time with them

than we would in, say, a typical weekend in LA,

there's something about the context switching,

the foreignness of the environment,

the intensity of the experience, the cultural experience.

It makes it feel much more personal.

And we actually talked about this

the last night we were there,

which is like, it's so weird

'cause we literally did the same things that we do in LA.

Like we went to a game and went to a restaurant,

but it feels more intimate and more personal,

like it's a completely different vibe.

That's a good segue into this episode's topic.

One of the most common questions

that I get from readers these days

is about adult friendships.

How do you maintain them?

How do you make them?

How do you find good ones?

How do you grow in them?

This seems to be something

that a lot of people, say, over the age of 25

are struggling with right now.

And we've done a lot of episodes

on things like social skills, and loneliness,

and how the digital life is complicating our social lives,

and our psychology, and everything.

But ultimately, there are a lot of people out there

struggling with simply making

and maintaining adult friendships.

And so today, what I'd like to do is get into:

What makes an adult friendship?

How is it different than, say, adolescent

or young adult friendships?

Why is it so much harder?

And then what are some practical things that we can do

to get better at it?

It's funny when you do research on friendship

and what causes it.

It's one of those areas of research

that like every paper you read, you're like,

"Well, no shit, Sherlock, that's so obvious."

But basically,

basically, psychologists boil friendship down

into four variables

that influence how good of friends you become with somebody.

The first one is proximity.

Second one is frequency, how often you see them.

So first one's how close physically proximate to them,

like how easy is it for you to see them again?

Second one is how often do you see them?

Third one is duration.

How much time do you spend together?

You can actually kind of just put frequency

and duration together as total time spent together.

And then the third one,

which I think is the most interesting one,

is intensity or emotional intensity.

So there's a variety of things that go into that.

Shared interests is really important.

The intensity of the experiences you share together

is really important.

If there's hardship or difficulty

in the experiences that you share together,

that's also pretty significant.

It's like guys who go to war with each other,

like fucking feel like brothers for the rest of their lives,

even if they don't see each other for 10 years.

We're gonna go through each of these factors,

look at how modern life is complicating them

and making them a little bit more difficult,

and also just how getting older complicates them

and makes them a little bit more difficult.

And then we'll wrap up the end of the episode

with some practical takeaways.

So why don't we start with proximity?

And this ties in a little bit

with the episode we did a couple weeks ago on loneliness

to be physically close to people

that you wanna see repeatedly.

- Yeah.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- That was me setting you up, Drew.

- That's my cue, that's my cue.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

Okay, so yeah- - Yeah, we're on...

We're on fire this morning.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- I did...

Okay, no, I did dig some of this up.

And it does really a lot back to the episode we did

on loneliness a couple weeks back.

But for one, especially since the pandemic,

now that everybody's working remotely

or they have some sort of like hybrid set up with their work

that's starting to complicate things.

There was a Gallup study

that's found even before the pandemic

that there's like an emphasis on work relationships

and friendships.

We want to have a good friend at work,

and there's more emphasis on that,

and it shows a greater impact on job satisfaction,

having a friend at work.

At the same time that's happening,

more of us are working remotely.

And one of the biggest complaints

that people cite about remote work

is that they can't connect with their coworkers as well

and just the larger company culture in general.

And so you kind of touched on this with Cal Newport, too.

It's kind of a we want our cake and we want to eat it, too.

We want the flexibility of that remote work,

but we also want good friends at work.

And those things, there's a tension between those.

This is a Pew research study.

71% of remote workers say

that it improves their work-life balance,

but over half of them also say

that they have trouble connecting with coworkers.

So there's this weird thing going on right now.

I think we're in this transition phase

where we're just trying to figure out

how the hell we're supposed to work remotely.

I don't know, what do you think is going on there?

- Well, it makes sense to me.

It's the water cooler effect, right?

Like when you...

I haven't seen any data on this,

but I would imagine if you went back

to, say, the '60s, '70s, and '80s,

I would imagine that most adult friendships

originated either at work

or parents of other children that your children play with,

simply because those are the people

that you're gonna see repeatedly

over an extended period of time.

And I would say it's not even just remote work.

It is people switch jobs much more frequently

than they used to.

Like, I remember when we were entering the workforce,

there were a lot of think pieces

written about how millennials

don't feel loyal to a company anymore,

they'll leave after four or five years.

Now, it's like people leave after a year

and go find another job.

So if you are jumping from company to company

every one, two, three years,

again, you're not getting that frequency

and that duration that's required

to build a meaningful friendship.

And then of course, you throw remote work on top of that,

and it just compounds everything.

People are traveling a lot more today than they used to.

Millennials, both millennials and Gen Z,

spend much more of their disposable income on traveling.

I know just personally,

my friends seem to always be on a fucking trip somewhere,

which I can't even get mad about because for years,

I was always on a fucking trip somewhere.

As someone who just moved to a new city

and has been trying to make friends,

that's been a frustrating thing is you meet somebody,

you really like them, you hang out a couple times,

and the next three times you text them,

they're in Europe, or they're in New York,

or they're at a work conference somewhere.

So that is complicated things as well.

I think it's just...

Again, it comes back to this tension

between freedom and connection that you alluded to.

It happens within the workplace,

it happens between workplaces,

and I think it also happens outside of the workplace.

The more freedom and optionality that we have

to be wherever we want whenever we want,

the more difficult it is to get that frequency and duration

and that proximity that is necessary

to build meaningful friendships.

So that's the first one is just the transience,

the greater transience of people these days.

The second one that I marked down is partners and kids

and how they add exponential layers of complexity.

This has definitely been a huge factor in my life.

I think one thing that happens when you get married,

I think it happens a little bit in a committed relationship,

but it really seems to kick in when you get married,

which is it's no longer just about finding one person

that you get along with.

You need to find a couple that you get along with.

And that is exponentially more difficult because now,

both of you need to sign off on two people

instead of one person signing off on one person.

And you get in a lot of situations

where I'll meet a guy that I really enjoy hanging out with,

and then my wife will meet his wife,

and we go home after dinner or something,

and my wife's like, "Eh. Yeah, no."

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- Yeah, yeah.

- And I imagine a lot of single people are listening to this

and being like, "That's absurd.

Like, you shouldn't have to need your spouse

to like sign off on their spouse."

That is correct.

If I just wanna like go surf,

like have a surf buddy or something,

like that's one thing.

The problem is,

is just that you have a very limited amount of free time,

and you wanna spend a very significant amount

of that free time with your spouse.

And so if you can combine

spending quality time with your spouse with socializing,

like that's a two-for-one.

And so if you do find a couple

where you like both people and the couple

and they like both of you,

they're always gonna get priority

over the people that you don't like both people.

And so what happens is the people

that one of you doesn't approve of both of them,

like they just slowly get weeded out of your social life

over time.

That creates a lot of complexity.

It's just a much higher bar for people to clear.

And then I think when you have kids,

from friends of mine who have kids,

it adds a whole another layer to that

because, well, if the kids like each other

but the parents don't get along,

well, then that kind of sucks.

Whereas if the parents get along

but the kids don't like each other,

that also sucks.

So it's like every variable you throw into the equation

just ups the complexity even further.

And it's hard. it's really...

It's disappointing, a lot of times, so...

Like, I can't tell you how many times

where Fernanda will meet somebody that she really likes,

and she's like, "I really hope you like their husband."

And we like go somewhere with them, and within five minutes,

I'm like, "God, I cannot stand this guy."

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- [Drew] Yep. - And I'm just like,

I look at her, I'm like, "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry."

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- The kids thing,

I've been dealing with for the last few years, too,

and it's definitely...

It definitely changes things in a lot of different ways.

I don't know, there's...

I like kids.

I'm weird, I guess, I don't know.

I like kids and I'm good with kids.

I don't necessarily- - No, you're a good human,

Drew, that's what you are.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- I never thought of it that way.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- You're not an asshole like me.

- Yeah, yeah.

(Mark laughing)

You like kids, don't you? - No, I don't.

- You don't? - Get them away from me.

I don't like your kids, keep them away from me.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- Really? Oh, okay.

I didn't know, I thought, I don't know.

I thought you like kids. - No, I don't...

Let me put it this way.

I don't dislike kids. - Okay. Okay.

- I've never hung out with a kid and been like,

"Wow, that was so cool," like, I've never...

Like it's just like a,

I don't know, they're just there.

- I mean, I'm exhausted by the end of it,

and usually I'm like, "Yeah, go back to your parents,

I'm done with you," by the end of it.

But like, I don't know, I'm pretty good with kids,

and- - I'm like that, too,

but after like five seconds.

(Mark laughing)

- Oh, okay, now.

I can do a few hours, I can do a few hours.

- I'm like, "Oh, cool, nice toy.

Go back to your parents."

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- Okay. No, I'm not that bad, no.

I've got the phone uncle vibe going really well,

I think, for me.

So that helps with- - It sounds like it.

It sounds like it. - With my, yeah.

So I've had a few friends

who've had kids over the last few years,

all kind of had them...

Like started having kids around the same time.

So they're all kind of the same age

and they all kind of get along.

So I don't know, I'm just lucky in that regard.

But I also, like, I'm good with kids.

I can entertain them and they...

I think we're probably on the same emotional level

for at least a couple hours.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

- You relate to them. - I relate to them.

- You relate to their problems.

- I definitely can, I definitely can.

(Mark laughing)

So that helps if you can put on

the fun uncle/fun aunt vibe or whatever.

But I get it, not everybody's like that, so...

And it just changes.

Those friends, too, a lot of...

We used to do, like, we'd go mountain biking a whole bunch,

or we'd do like these outings

where having a kid doesn't really work,

and so we just don't do those things anymore.

And so that's a big part of it as well.

I've also found, too, what I found interesting.

Not too long after they started having kids

and if the kids weren't around,

and we like we went out to dinner

and they got a sitter or something like that,

they spent a lot of time

complaining about parenting and their kids.

(Mark wheezing)

At first I was like, "Okay, you guys are really selling

this let's-have-kids thing.

Like really makes me want to go have kids.

Great job, guys."

But then what I realized

is that that was just their time to vent.

That was their time to just get all the shit

that they can't say

when their kids are around off their chest.

And it wasn't that they didn't like being a parent

and they didn't love their children or anything like that,

it was that that was their time to vent.

And I was like, "Okay, I can take on that role now."

So that changed the dynamic of our relationship, obviously,

that way.

But it also led me to like realize

that your relationship with these people is going to evolve,

and it's going to evolve in a way that you can't predict,

and there's actually a lot of area for connection there too.

Like, your friends are changing as...

They're parents now,

and they've changed a lot because of that.

And you can kind of connect with them and like,

"Oh, okay, let me understand how you're changing.

Well, how does this change you?

How does being responsible for another human being

change you in a way?"

And it can lead to a deeper connection,

but it's very different.

You're not gonna be partying, and mountain biking,

and doing all the crazy stuff you used to do together.

- Yeah, maybe this jumps ahead a little bit

into like some of the practical takeaways,

but I think having that patience

and openness to that evolution is important.

I've definitely found that to be true as well.

I mean, I've had friends who have kids,

I've had friends get married, get divorced,

move to another country, move back.

Things do change, they evolve.

And the friendship evolves.

Sometimes, you go through seasons with people,

and maybe you spend one decade super close,

and then the next decade you grow apart a little bit,

and then you come back together.

That's actually an interesting conversation

I've had with my parents,

which is they have had friendships

that have gone away for decades,

and then come back, and been stronger than ever.

And it's one of those things

where like you don't necessarily have

the whole perspective on everything

when you're in the middle of it.

Things can change and move at a slow pace.

I would say 90% of the time

that people ask me this question,

they tend to be in their 30s or early 40s,

and they tend to reference how many friends they had

in their 20s,

and how vibrant their social life was,

and how many things that they were doing.

And they kind of lament, like, "What happened to that?

Why don't I have that anymore?"

And my instinctual reaction

or kind of the first place that my brain goes

is that when you're in your 20s,

everybody's at the same level.

Everybody is young, broke, completely inexperienced,

doesn't know shit about shit, doesn't know who they are,

doesn't know what they like,

doesn't know what they want to do with their lives.

And slowly, as you move into adulthood,

all of those things start to get figured out.

People start figuring out

what they wanna do with their life,

they start figuring out what they're good at,

they start figuring out

what type of people they like spending time with

and what type of people they don't like spending time with.

Also, money and status starts to become a factor.

Some people become very successful in their careers.

Some people become very unsuccessful.

Some people are very materialistic.

Some people are not materialistic at all.

Some people really crave novelty and new experiences.

Some people crave a lot of stability,

and comfort, and repetition.

I think this is an underdiscussed component of this issue,

which is that as you get older

and you take on this process of self-discovery

and figuring out who you are, and what you like,

and who you are in the world,

and succeeding at things in the world,

each step of progress you make along that path

narrows the aperture of the friendships

that you can potentially connect with, right?

Like it's almost like everybody

is starting at the same starting place

or a similar starting place,

but they all start walking in different directions,

and so your pool of people that you're gonna relate to,

that you're gonna share values and interests with,

that you who are going to understand your lifestyle

and the things you do for fun,

who are going to be of similar financial security

or insecurity,

those pools shrink and narrow

and it becomes more difficult to find those things.

And, I don't know, I think maybe one of the reasons

that this doesn't get discussed

is, A, it's a touchy subject.

People don't like admitting that there are groups of people

that they used to enjoy hanging out with

and they don't anymore

for whatever judgments that they might have.

But two, a lot of it is just practicality, right?

Like, if you're really into boating

and you spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on boats,

like you don't want to hang out with a bunch of people

who are just gonna like freeload on your boat.

You want to hang out with other boat people, right?

Like, that's just like a simple example

of how this takes place.

Or I have a friend who literally spends all of his money

on fixing up old cars.

Like, it's just his passion, it's what he does.

He goes to racetracks,

he like races all these like retro refitted supercars.

I don't know shit about it.

But I imagine that not only does that narrow

who he is gonna relate to and gel with,

but there's also even within that sub-niche of interest

of cars, and retrofitting cars, or whatever.

He's probably gonna wanna hang out with other people

who spend all their money on cars,

and retrofit their cars,

and don't bat an eye of like spending half their savings

on like an old Corvette or something.

That's not to say that that's like a solid rule,

but I just think it's a factor that gets overlooked.

Like there's a lot of nostalgia for our late teens

and early 20s

of how everybody is kind of on this equal footing

of just not knowing, and being open to everybody,

and being interested in everybody to a certain extent.

And also if you went to college,

like being in an environment

where you are in constant contact and proximity

to all of your peers as well.

So it is like a...

It's almost from a friendship point of view

or a social connection point of view,

university, in many ways, is a utopia.

It's like if you were to like sit down and maximize

how to make as many meaningful friendships as possible,

you would probably design a university dorm system.

And for those of us

who really, really enjoyed our college experiences,

sometimes it's hard to let that go

to like realize that that's not life.

Like, that's not coming back anytime soon.

So, yeah.

Anyway, that's...

Maybe it's a little bit of a depressing point,

but it definitely is an issue.

- Oh, it's a hugely complicating factor, I think.

And the older I get to the more I'm like,

"No, I like these things,

and I'm not gonna really deviate from them

all that much too."

One thing I've noticed, too, getting older,

I used to be a sports fanatic,

like when I was in my teens and 20s.

I just don't give a shit anymore.

Like for making male friendships,

I think for some people at least,

that's a little tougher

because sports are basically just reality TV

for men, basically. - Yeah, totally.

- The way I see it.

And I'm just like, "Ah, I don't know."

It sucks too

because I was the biggest Kansas City Chiefs fan

when I was a kid,

and they sucked so fucking bad,

and now they're good, and I just don't give a shit,

and I can't connect with anybody on it.

Like, yeah, so... - You're missing out

on the Homes era. - I know, I know.

It's terrible.

I struggle now with balancing.

Like, what I want to do

is I want to talk to people about abstract ideas,

and deep concept, and deep concepts,

and really like dig into that kind of stuff.

And that's hard to connect with people on quickly, at least.

And so I wish I had some kind of like just lighter,

more mundane things I could connect with people on.

But I don't know.

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Back to the show.

All right, let's talk about what people can do

'cause this is a widespread problem.

I mean, we've covered the data extensively on this show and-

- And it's not clear what they should do, so, yeah.

- Yeah, well, and it's...

I've talked about how this is something...

This is an area I struggle with.

I think it's something

that I could be a lot better about in my life.

So I threw down a few ideas.

These are a few things that I have found helpful

in my own life.

First one is be extra aggressive on hobbies and interests.

I think for most of us,

our default setting is we kind of learn to socialize,

and we learn friendships when we're young,

when everybody has tons of time

and everybody's willing to try a little bit of something.

Once you get to your 30s, 40s, 50s, you don't have time.

You know what you like, you don't wanna...

You've tried most of the things

that you're interested in trying.

So I feel like the game shifts under our feet

and we don't really realize it.

And what I've...

It's taken me a long time to figure out

is that, really, you just have to go really hard

on the things that do interest you

and kind of almost be like fanatical about it.

Those are ultimately the people

that you're gonna repeatedly see.

It's funny now, like when I meet new people,

like one of my first questions is: Do you like to surf?

Because if they say, "No,"

then I'm like, "Well,

there goes like 50% of my opportunities hang out with you,"

because I'm probably not gonna do anything else.

If you surf, then, like,

I'm pretty much up to hangout almost whenever.

- Nice. - I think it's finding

those two or three things you really like.

I've met so many people out here who are in the pickleball.

It's crazy.

I'm just gonna convince myself I like pickleball

just so I can have friends.

I do think that this is at our age,

assuming you're not making friends at work

and assuming you're not becoming friends

with the parents of your kids' friends.

I think this is the hack

is just go really hard in on your interests.

And don't do it digitally, do it face to face.

A Facebook group is fine to join, to like coordinate,

but like ultimately,

you want to get in person in front of a bunch of people.

I think joining groups pretty liberally,

like I used to be really skeptical of groups

of like networking groups and social groups.

I used to be really skeptical of them when I was younger,

and I would like be like, "Oh, am I gonna waste money?"

Now, I just join them.

And if I don't like them,

I'll go to like one or two events,

and if I don't like it, I just quit.

Because what I have found

is that one out of every five or six

is gonna be really good,

and you're gonna get a lot of good connections

and friendships from that group.

But sometimes, you just gotta get through the bad ones

before you find the good one.

So I've been trying to just say, "Fuck it," and join stuff.

- What do you think, though, like with both of these,

like your hobbies and interests in the groups?

I think there's gotta be some sort of...

There's gotta be like another layer to it, too.

So it can't be super superficial.

Surfing, like to you,

sounds like there's like a kind of a deeper underlying,

I don't know, facet of that that you connect with.

That if someone else connects with it too,

that's a deeper connection that you could have with them.

But like, I don't know,

and maybe it's good to like go join a kickball league,

or ultimate frisbee, or whatever it is.

But I also think they're like,

"Don't do too shallow on these things, either."

That's maybe...

I don't know,

that's something I've been thinking about as well.

- Well, I think there's two layers to it.

There's Level 1, which is like,

"I'm gonna try this thing and see if I like it,"

which, I guess for me, would be pickleball.

Like, I've played it once and I lost horribly and...

- And you're a (indistinct). - Left the court.

Yeah, so I don't really know if I like it or not,

but that's something

that like I would put that in my like try-it-out bucket,

and see, try it a couple more times, see if I like it.

And then there's like, there's a Level 2,

which is like, "Okay, I know I like this thing

and I know I like spending time

with people doing this thing,

so let me invest more in it

because that's probably where a lot of my friendships

are gonna develop."

And I think historically, like golf or bass,

again, coming back to the sports thing,

I think with guys, it's an activity.

You're never gonna get a guy

to like just hang out over martinis for three hours.

You invite him golfing, you invite him surfing,

you invite him to play tennis or pickleball.

- I fucking hate golf.

Sorry.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

My friend's golfing, I'm like,

"No, I'm not going golfing with you."

- Dude, I tried so hard to enjoy golfing.

I fucking hate it, too.

- I wanna see you golf. - No, you want to...

Okay, here's a crazy story.

So when I was doing Will Smith's book,

I was hanging out with him.

We were in Miami, I think.

This was pretty early on.

I think I had only been working with him for a few months,

and we're at a dinner,

and he like looks over and he says, "Hey, do you golf?

I've got a game going on tomorrow."

And I was like, "Eh, I'm not really...

Like, I haven't played in a long time."

And he was like, "Oh, okay, cool."

And then a few minutes later,

one of his managers comes over and sits next to me,

and he's like, "You sure you don't wanna go

to this golf game?"

I was like, "I don't know man, like, I'm really bad.

I don't really enjoy it."

And he was like, "If you golf at all,

you probably want to go to this golf game."

And I was like, "Eh, I don't know.

Nah, I'll pass.

Like, I think I'd just flown in or something."

Anyway, long story short,

it turns out he was playing with Tiger Woods the next day.

- Holy shit. - And...

(Mark laughing)

And I was imagining like if I had gone...

- Oh, yeah, no, that was a good call, Mark.

(Mark and Drew laughing)

You would've fucking embarrassed yourself

in front of Tiger Woods.

- I'm like kicking up like clumps of dirt

in Tiger Woods' face. - Oh, God.

- It would've been fucking hysterical.

- No. - But it's funny

because that same manager told me, he was like...

'cause it's so hard to get FaceTime with Will, he was like,

"If you wanna get FaceTime, you should pick up golf."

And actually, I went through a period where I'm like,

"Okay, some of the most successful

and interesting people I know love golf,

so let me try this.

Let me like put some time into it."

And I went golfing maybe four or five times,

and I hated every single second of it.

I hated every swing,

I hated every missed putt and fuck that sport.

- It's really no fun when you don't drink, too.

Like, that's what I found.

It's like bowling, it's not fun if you're not drinking.

- Even when I drink, I hated it, so anyway.

So yeah, I think there's two levels to the activity thing,

but I think it's just like you need to be aggressive on it,

and I think you need to really pursue it.

You can't just kind of like show up to the pickleball court

and expect to make friends,

like pick a group, go regularly, participate,

sign up for things, et cetera, et cetera.

- Yeah, be patient

'cause it does take a long time in those settings.

- Which that's another good point

is I think people will go to a group or go to an activity.

Like, they'll run into the same person three or four times,

and then kind of be like,

"Well, I'm still not friends with them yet."

I really think to actually be friends with somebody,

most of the time,

you probably need to be exposed like a dozen times at least.

Every once in a while,

you'll meet somebody and you just hit it off immediately,

and you're kind of instant friends.

But in my experience, in most cases,

you really need to run into people many, many times

and slowly kind of build up to it.

And then the last thing I have here is follow up,

which I'm terrible at,

but text people, check in on them,

follow up with them, ask them.

So here's what I do, and this is wrong.

This is what everybody should not do,

is like I'll text somebody,

I'll be like, "Hey, man, I'm doing this thing this weekend.

If you're around, it'd be cool to hang out."

I'll get a reply, they're like,

"Oh, sorry dude, I'm traveling.

I'm playing golf with Tiger Woods in Florida."

And I'm like, "Oh, okay."

Like, what happens what I do, which is the wrong thing,

is I go another month being like,

"Damn, I wish I could have hung out with so-and-so.

That sucks."

What I should do is the next week,

I should text the same person and be like,

"Hey man, how was golf with Tiger Woods?

Oh, I bet that was sick."

And then think of something else to suggest,

which I don't do that 'cause I don't know,

I'm lazy or something.

- Going back to your point too, though, about...

Like you were saying,

your parents told you that they would go decades sometimes

without seeing people and then reconnect with them.

I've actually had that happen already with me, too.

There's a couple of people,

like from my childhood who I was good friends with,

who I've reconnected with in the last several years

just because I reached back out.

So my follow-up game was weak for a few decades,

and then I got...

I got back to it and it's great, we've reconnected.

We've been able to share our life stories with each other

and what we've done since then,

and we have a new friendship

that's completely different, obviously,

from when we were in preschool or whatever.

But yeah, it's the follow up

is it can happen over decades, too.

- I think the multi-decade follow up

can work well with family as well.

- Yeah. Yes. - I've had a couple cousins

that went 20 years not talking to,

and then we reconnected in our 30s,

and turns out we have a ton in common,

including most of our families, so...

- I'm getting to be really good friends

with some of my uncles now too, which I really like.

- Oh, that's cool. - As you get older.

Yeah. I really like that.

- What did you have for this one?

What should people do?

You always talk about how you feel

like your social life's in a good spot.

So what is the Drew Birnie formula for friendship?

- Well, first of all,

you have to be as cool and awesome as me, so I'm sorry.

(Mark laughing)

If you're just not.

No, that's- - Give up, people.

Just give up right now.

It's over.

(Mark laughing)

- I think, I mean, I have the luxury, I think,

where I don't have kids

and I don't have like significant relationships

that I have to pour a lot of time into.

So there's that.

And so I have the luxury of leading

with a lot of generosity with my time

and just with listening to people and stuff like that.

And I think that's a big one for me anyway.

My friends have commented on that before

that, like, I tend to lead with,

"Here, I'll help you with something."

At the end of the day, the way I see it,

I'm like, "What else is there to do in life

but help other people out?"

Like, just lead with that,

and importantly not expecting anything in return.

Like, you're not doing this as...

This isn't a tactic, right?

Like, it's it's not a way to manipulate people

into liking you or anything like that,

but just like, "Here, you need help with something?

I can help you with that."

And I think that goes a long ways.

I think people remember those things.

This one time, this one example that sticks out to me,

and it's just a real pedestrian example,

but I had a friend call me up one night,

it was like on a Friday or Saturday night, and she was sick.

She and another one of our friends,

they lived in the same building,

the same apartment building,

and they both got sick like pretty badly,

and they needed some cough medicine or something like that,

and they didn't wanna leave their houses.

And I was like, "Yeah, sure I can do that, no problem."

And it was like a Friday or Saturday night, still,

but I was like, whatever,

that's gonna take me half an hour at the most.

Dropped it off, just left it in front of their doors,

and left.

Couple weeks later, both of them were like,

"You were like the third or fourth person I called,

and everybody else said, 'No,'

'cause they were doing something else

or just didn't want to,

and you actually showed up and did that."

And I'm like, "Who the fuck says, 'No,'

to their sick friend?"

But like, you just bring them some medicine.

But I guess if you just lead with that kind of mentality,

I think that goes a long way with people, I don't know.

- That is true.

I mean, I think about the friends that have stuck around.

I mean, this is the other interesting thing

is that I've consistently found throughout my life

that it is hard to predict which friendships stick

and which ones don't. - [Drew] Totally.

- But I definitely, when I look at the ones that stuck,

a lot of them have been very generous to me over the years.

- I do have a question for you.

What is a friend to you?

What makes a friend? - Hmm.

- Especially in adults because, like, kids,

I think we have an idea of what that is,

and it's probably a little simpler,

or maybe not, I don't know.

What makes a friend to you?

- It's an interesting question.

I wrote an article years ago

called "The Levels of Friendship."

And I would say

'cause I really see it as like they're kind of layers,

and they're not...

They build on top of one another, right?

Like, I would say the lowest layer,

the most shallow or superficial is just an acquaintance,

somebody you bump into either at work,

or church, or whatever you do.

I'd say the second layer

is somebody who you like have some really shared interest in

and that you just genuinely enjoy talking to

or being around.

It can be something as simple as like a drinking buddy,

or a surfing buddy, or a golfing buddy.

But it's like somebody where you're like,

"Oh, yeah, I like that guy."

Like, you can go spend a few hours with him

and enjoy your time.

I would say the third level

is when it starts to get a little bit deeper

and more intimate,

there's genuinely a little bit of emotional attachment

to each other.

Like, you actually care

if something good or bad happens to them, like deeply.

Like, if their mother dies or something,

like you are genuinely upset for them.

I think that usually comes along

with understanding a little bit more about their lives,

their history, their personality.

You probably need to have been friends with them

for at least a couple years, at least for me, I don't know.

Like sometimes, I watch my wife,

and she seems to become like best friends with somebody

in like two weeks.

And I'm like, "What is that?

(Mark laughing)

How does that happen?"

But it's usually her with other Brazilian women,

so I'm like...

I think they're just like playing

a completely different game than I'm playing, for sure.

But yeah, I think that third level

is like a real kind of emotional attachment.

And then I would say there's even a fourth level,

which is rarely gotten to,

but it's somebody who you have so much history with

and have known for so long

that it's almost like honorary family.

Like, there are a few people that I grew up with

that I don't talk to frequently,

but when I go home and I see them, it feels kind of like...

It's a very similar feeling as like visiting my brother.

I can like not talk to my brother for a year,

and then I go visit him,

and it's like, "Oh, yeah, it's my brother."

I have a few childhood friends

that have kind of are at that level,

which is interesting

because I think when you get to that level,

you don't necessarily need the shared interests anymore.

Like one of those friends,

he and I have completely different lives and interests now.

We have like almost nothing in common,

but there's still that feeling

or like that sense of brotherhood,

I guess you would call it, for lack of a better term.

- Yeah, I think what really fits in with that,

I kind of came up with this,

or I've kind of been toying with this for a while now,

and I think friends, they...

Like real friends,

when you get to that level that those upper levels

that you were talking about,

they hold contradictions,

your contradictions maybe even too,

in some sort of balance for you.

It's like they'll call you on your bullshit

and they'll hold you accountable,

but they'll also be there for you when you royally fuck up

when nobody else around you wants to be around you.

Like that kind of thing.

Or the one I thought of recently too

was that they expect the most of you,

but they don't expect anything from you.

There's this weird,

like they can hold these contradictions

and all of your flaws and everything like that,

they're way more forgiving.

They know your flaws probably better than you do, even.

And yet they're more forgiving of them.

There's this weird kind of like place

where you get with a select few friends that, I think...

It's what you're talking about, it's beyond shared interest.

It's beyond all of that kind of stuff.

- I would call it unconditionality, which is really...

I would say it approaches a form of love,

which is kind of like the honorary family member, right?

Like, you reach a point with very few people

where you can actually not like them,

but still feel a lot of affection for them.

Whereas, like,

if you kind of the earlier stages of friendship,

if I start not liking my golf buddy or my surf buddy,

I'm gonna stop surfing with him, it's that simple.

I'm just gonna stop responding to his text.

Whereas there are a handful of people in my life

that even if I think they're annoying

or even if I think they're doing something really dumb

or self-destructing in some way,

like it doesn't really change how I feel about them.

The same way as if like a family member is annoying

or self-destructive in some way,

it doesn't change my affection for them.

So it is almost like a platonic love,

which the Greeks argued

was actually the highest form of love.

I don't remember if it was Plato or Aristotle who said that,

"The love of two friends is actually the highest,

the most pure form of love

because it's not tainted with baggage

that we get with our family members and romantic partners."

- Definitely, and people,

when you ask them how important friendship is

to a fulfilling life,

people say it's very, very important.

Like twice as many people

will say that that's more important than marriage,

than kids, than your job.

It's friends. - Absolutely.

I mean, and the mental health data bears that out as well.

Like, there are millions of people in this world

who are single and perfectly happy,

living very happy, healthy lives.

There is almost nobody in this world

who has zero friendships and is happy and healthy.

It is more fundamental to our psychology, I think,

romantic partners or marriage partners.

Yet, I think if you look at people's behavior,

most people tend to sacrifice friendships

for their romantic partnerships

or their pursuit of some sort of partnership.

So I do think people have it backwards.

I think they tend to underestimate friendship

and overestimate romance.

But- - Agreed.

- That gets into another episode.

Any final words of wisdom, Drew Birnie,

so that the rest of us can be as cool as you

and be invited to children's birthday parties?

(Drew laughing)

(Mark laughing)

- I'll leave you with the wisdom of Old Man Birnie, my dad.

He said, "If you want a friend, be a friend."

- Doesn't get any simpler or profound than that.

All right, everybody.

Be a friend to the podcast.

- Please.

- Follow and review the show.

Drew and I are hoping to move the two episodes a week soon

so you will get more of us in your ear holes.

But following and reviewing the show

is the best thing you can do to support us,

helps us get better guests,

it helps us with the algorithms,

it just makes our lives much easier and makes us feel loved.

Which ultimately,

aren't we all just trying to feel loved, Drew?

- We are, we are.

- I'll leave you with that.

(Mark laughing)

- Thank you, friends.

- I'll leave you with that, fellow listener.

Until next week.

See you, guys.

(upbeat music)