EP 125: Former CIA agent shares rapid decision making & navigating career decisions

Summary

In this podcast, former CIA counterterrorism intelligence officer Michelle Hassad shares her experiences from her book 'Breaking Cover.' She discusses the challenges of being a female operative in the Middle East, her strategies for gaining the trust of terrorist sources, and the importance of emotional intelligence in her work. Michelle emphasizes the value of understanding cultural nuances, planning for the unexpected, and the psychological aspects of her interactions. She also offers advice on overcoming perceived limitations and using unique strengths to achieve success.

Takeaways

• 🔍 Michelle Hassad, a former CIA intelligence officer, shares her experiences in counterterrorism and counterintelligence, emphasizing the importance of understanding cultural nuances and psychological strategies.
• 🌐 Her career largely took place in the Middle East, where she had to navigate complex social dynamics and gender biases to effectively engage with sources and subjects.
• 👥 Michelle, along with her husband Joseph, now serves as a consultant for companies operating in the Middle East, focusing on inspiring others to overcome fears and fulfill their missions.
• 🗣️ She discusses the challenge of being a female in a male-dominated field, particularly in cultures with strict gender roles, and how she leveraged her strengths to gain respect and cooperation.
• 🤝 Michelle shares a pivotal moment where she had to confront a terrorist, using her knowledge of Arabic and Middle Eastern culture to establish authority and credibility.
• 🧠 She emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence and empathy in building rapport and trust, even in high-stakes situations.
• 📚 Michelle advises on the value of becoming an expert in a niche area, using her own journey of studying the Middle East as an example of how to stand out and excel.
• 🛡️ She explains the CIA's training techniques for handling stress and high-stakes situations, including planning for potential problems and practicing responses.
• 🧘‍♀️ Michelle discusses the mental discipline required for her work, including how she used her faith to maintain focus and perseverance in challenging circumstances.
• 💼 She offers advice for those in corporate settings, suggesting the importance of understanding one's perceived image, demonstrating expertise, and earning respect through actions rather than words.

Q & A

What was Michelle Hassad's role at the CIA?

Michelle Hassad was a former CIA intelligence officer who focused on counterterrorism and counterintelligence, with the majority of her career spent in the Middle East.

What is the title of Michelle Hassad's book?

The title of Michelle Hassad's book is 'Breaking Cover'.

What challenges did Michelle face as a female CIA agent in the Middle East?

Michelle faced challenges due to cultural and ideological biases against women in roles of authority, particularly when interacting with individuals who held extremist views that women should be submissive and covered.

How did Michelle handle her first meeting with a terrorist source?

Michelle handled her first meeting by challenging the preconceived notions the source had about her as a woman. She did this by shaking his hand, speaking Arabic, and complimenting his work, which was unexpected and helped to establish her credibility.

What strategies did Michelle use to gain the respect of a terrorist source?

Michelle used strategies such as speaking Arabic, complimenting the source's work, and demonstrating her intelligence and knowledge about the Middle East to gain his respect and cooperation.

How did Michelle's mentors in the CIA initially perceive her role as a female agent?

Michelle's mentors initially perceived her role as a female agent as a weakness due to cultural norms and expectations in the Middle East, but she turned this into a strength using her emotional intelligence and knowledge.

What advice does Michelle give to those looking to excel in their careers?

Michelle advises becoming an expert in a specific area, understanding what others think of you, and demonstrating your expertise through actions rather than words.

How did Michelle mentally prepare for high-stakes situations?

Michelle mentally prepared by planning for things to go wrong, training her brain to expect problems, and practicing scenarios to react quickly and effectively when the unexpected occurs.

What is the importance of understanding one's own perceived limitations according to Michelle?

Understanding one's own perceived limitations is important because it allows individuals to challenge those notions and use them to their advantage, as Michelle did by leveraging her unique position as a female agent.

How does Michelle's faith influence her approach to handling stress and challenges?

Michelle's faith provides her with a mindset of humility and service, focusing on the present and trusting in divine guidance for future opportunities, which helps her maintain composure and perseverance in challenging situations.

What is the significance of planning for problems in high-stakes operations according to the script?

Planning for problems is significant because it trains the brain to be nimble and ready to react effectively when things don't go as planned, reducing the likelihood of failure and increasing the ability to handle unexpected situations.

Outlines

00:00

🔍 Introduction to a Former CIA Agent's Experiences

The video script begins with an introduction to Michelle Hassad, a former CIA intelligence officer with a focus on counterterrorism and counterintelligence. She spent most of her career in the Middle East. The host expresses excitement about having Michelle on the podcast, having been a fan of her book 'Breaking Cover.' Michelle and her husband now serve as consultants for companies in the Middle East and are passionate about inspiring others to overcome their fears. The conversation hints at the fascinating and sometimes humorous cultural experiences Michelle had during her decade-long career, which she is allowed to share.

05:03

🌐 Challenging Preconceived Notions as a Female CIA Officer

In this paragraph, Michelle shares her experiences as a female CIA officer interacting with terrorists, particularly in male-dominated cultures where women are expected to be submissive. She describes her strategy for challenging these preconceived notions, starting with shaking hands and speaking Arabic to assert herself. Michelle emphasizes the importance of understanding and leveraging one's own strengths, such as emotional intelligence and cultural knowledge, to gain leverage in high-stakes situations. She also discusses the psychological dynamics at play during her meetings with sources, highlighting the need to be perceived as intelligent and capable.

10:03

🤝 Building Trust and Overcoming Stereotypes in the Field

Michelle recounts a specific encounter with a source, Abu Muhammad, where she had to quickly establish trust and credibility. She used a combination of flattery, acknowledging his contributions, and demonstrating her knowledge of the Middle East to gain his respect. This encounter illustrates the importance of being prepared, understanding cultural nuances, and leveraging one's unique strengths to navigate challenging situations. Michelle's approach shows how one can turn perceived weaknesses into strengths in the context of intelligence work.

15:05

🚀 Leveraging Unique Perspectives for Success

The discussion shifts to how Michelle's unique background and perspective as a female in a male-dominated field were actually assets. She explains that while others saw her gender and appearance as limitations, she used these traits to her advantage by showcasing her expertise and emotional intelligence. Michelle emphasizes the importance of understanding others' perceptions of oneself and using that knowledge to challenge and overcome stereotypes. She also talks about the value of taking on projects that others might overlook, as a way to demonstrate one's capabilities and build a reputation for excellence.

20:07

🌟 Pursuing Expertise and Differentiation in Career

Michelle shares her journey of becoming an expert in Arab culture, which included mission trips to challenging locations and studying abroad in Egypt. She discusses the importance of differentiating oneself in a career by choosing unique paths and pushing past fear. The conversation highlights the value of niche expertise and how it can lead to success. Michelle advises on the importance of preparation, authenticity, and becoming the best in one's chosen field to gain recognition and opportunities.

25:07

🧠 Managing High-Stakes Situations with Mental Preparation

In this segment, Michelle discusses the mental preparation required for high-stakes undercover work, such as meetings with sources in illegal settings. She explains how CIA training involves gradually increasing stress levels to build resilience and the importance of planning for potential problems. Michelle shares her approach to managing her central nervous system during tense situations, which includes training for various scenarios and learning to switch off the 'what-if' thinking during execution. The conversation underscores the significance of mental agility and focus in high-pressure environments.

Keywords

💡Counterterrorism

Counterterrorism refers to the efforts taken to combat and prevent terrorist activities. In the video, Michelle Hassad, a former CIA intelligence officer, discusses her experiences in counterterrorism, particularly in the Middle East. Her work involved dealing with individuals who had the potential to carry out attacks, showcasing the high-stakes nature of this field.

💡CIA

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is the foreign intelligence service of the United States, responsible for gathering, processing, and analyzing national security information. Michelle Hassad's role as a former CIA agent is central to the video's narrative, as she shares insights from her time spent in the Middle East conducting counterterrorism operations.

💡Cultural Experiences

Cultural experiences are the personal encounters and observations one has when interacting with different cultures. The video mentions 'funny and weird cultural experiences' that Michelle had during her tenure, highlighting the diverse and sometimes challenging nature of working in foreign countries, especially when dealing with cultural differences.

💡Psychology of Interaction

The psychology of interaction involves understanding the mental and emotional dynamics between individuals during their encounters. Michelle discusses the fascinating psychological aspects of her meetings with terrorists, emphasizing the importance of understanding and challenging preconceived notions and ideologies.

💡Emotional Intelligence

Emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize, understand, and manage both one's own emotions and those of others. In the video, Michelle's use of emotional intelligence is highlighted as a key factor in her success in dealing with terrorists, showing how empathy and cultural knowledge can be leveraged in high-stakes situations.

💡Strategic Communication

Strategic communication is the purposeful use of communication to achieve specific objectives. Michelle's approach to engaging with a terrorist source, such as shaking hands, speaking Arabic, and complimenting the individual, exemplifies strategic communication aimed at gaining trust and cooperation.

💡Intelligence Gathering

Intelligence gathering is the process of collecting information to support decision-making. The video script describes Michelle's role in gathering intelligence from sources, which is crucial for understanding and preventing terrorist activities, as illustrated by her efforts to uncover the perpetrators of an attack in Baghdad.

💡Surveillance Detection Route

A surveillance detection route is a method used to determine whether one is being followed. The script mentions this as a technique taught to CIA agents, emphasizing the importance of operational security and the need to plan for contingencies in high-risk environments.

💡Nimble Brain

A nimble brain refers to the ability to think quickly and adapt to changing situations. The video discusses training the brain to anticipate problems and develop solutions, which helps in maintaining focus and reacting effectively under pressure, a skill crucial for undercover operations.

💡Long Game

The long game refers to a strategic approach that focuses on long-term goals rather than immediate gains. Michelle talks about the importance of playing the long game in her career, taking on challenging projects that others overlooked, which eventually led to recognition and opportunities for advancement.

💡Catastrophizing

Catastrophizing is a cognitive distortion where one imagines the worst possible outcomes in a situation. The video contrasts this with the training Michelle received to anticipate problems and develop solutions, promoting a proactive mindset over a passive, fear-based one.

Highlights

Michelle Hassad, a former CIA intelligence officer, shares her experiences in counterterrorism.

Her book 'Breaking Cover' details her career, including the challenges faced by female agents in the Middle East.

Michelle discusses the importance of understanding cultural nuances when dealing with terrorists.

She shares a personal story of interrogating a terrorist in Baghdad, highlighting the psychological aspects of such encounters.

Michelle explains how she used her knowledge of Arabic and Middle Eastern culture to gain the upper hand in meetings.

The interview delves into how to physiologically calm oneself in high-stress situations.

Michelle talks about the training CIA agents receive to handle stressful situations and the importance of preparation.

She emphasizes the value of patience and playing the 'long game' in one's career.

Michelle shares her approach to winning people over through actions rather than words.

The interview covers strategies for dealing with the fear of failure and the importance of faith in overcoming challenges.

Michelle provides advice on how to stand out in a corporate setting by becoming an expert in a niche area.

She discusses the concept of 'show, don't tell' and the power of demonstrating expertise.

Michelle explains how she used her unique background and personality to her advantage in the CIA.

The interview touches on the importance of emotional intelligence and empathy in building relationships.

Michelle shares her thoughts on how to handle the pressure of being in high-stakes situations.

She provides insights on how to mentally prepare for and handle unexpected challenges.

The conversation concludes with advice on how to stay grounded and focused in the face of adversity.

Transcripts

[Music]

if you could sit with a former

counterterrorist CIA agent what would

you ask what stories would you want to

hear and how would you extrapolate their

experience to apply in your own life of

how to still move and have agency in the

middle of scary moments times of

transition would you want to learn how

to physiologically calm your central

nervous system so that you can think

rationally on your feet and make

decisions that Propel you forward for

your big mission in life we are with

Michelle hassad she is a former CIA

intelligence officer who focused on

counterterrorism and Counter

Intelligence the majority of her career

was spent in the Middle East alongside

her husband Joseph I read all about it

in the book breaking cover today her and

her husband Joseph serve as consultants

for companies doing business throughout

the Middle East they are passionate

about inspiring others to push through

their fears to fulfill the mission God

has for them on the earth thank you so

much for being our guest Michelle oh

thank you so much for having me Dr

Crawford this is such a huge deal you

guys I read the book audio listen let's

be honest I audio listen to her book a

year ago or more and I have been trying

to harass her in different ways I

finally let it go and then it came back

in this really random weird God way that

I get to be with her today so this is a

huge

honor oh well thank you for inviting me

I'm very honored to be a part of your

special podcast thank you okay so give

us some of the like whatever you're able

to I know redacted we have to be careful

I did go to the Spy Museum in DC and I

was the craziest fan in the world's ever

seen I was there all day um so what are

you allowed to share of any of your

stories from being a CIA agent uh

surprisingly a lot of them as you saw on

breaking cover um the CIA let uh let me

talk a lot about um my experiences some

of the scary things I experienced you

know we always have to protect sources

and methods we want to protect people's

lives we don't want to put anyone at

risk but in there's just as you can see

so many funny and weird cultural

experiences from that those 10 years

that I'm I am allowed to share which is

great awesome well we want to hear some

what comes to mind that you think others

listening would love to hear so I mean I

think the one that people find the most

fascinating is what is it actually like

to get in front of a terrorist and and

especially as a female in the movies

dealing with people whose ideology tell

them that you know women should never

leave the home unless they have a male

escort and unless they're totally

covered should never be alone in a room

in in the room with a woman who's not

your your spouse or your child or your

sister so imagine that you're now

meeting them as a counter terorism

official of the

CIA and obviously they don't think very

much of you and they don't think you

should be doing this kind of work and

you're certainly not capable and so you

think okay here my very first experience

getting front of a terrorist in a

meeting it was my husband's source and

it was in Baghdad so we were there in

like during the worst part of the the

war in 2006 and 7 and I was trying to

get to the bottom of who had ordered and

executed a very brutal attack against an

American woman on the streets of Baghdad

and so my job was to go in and try to

figure out like who who did this and so

as part of this effort um all of these

officers let me get in front of their

their terrorist sources to ask these

questions and you know it's one thing to

read about terrorists and these guys and

their ideology and it's a whole

different experience to be in front of

them it's so fascinating and so the

psychology of that interaction I think

is what everyone finds so fascinating

and love about breaking cover so you

know I'm thinking about all I have to

achieve in this meeting with this man

and I know very well because of all my

studies and time in the Middle East what

he thinks of me and when you walk into a

room like that you can't help what

you're walking into like you can't help

what other people think about you right

but you have to deal with it and you

have to know what it is if you're going

to challenge it and so I I realized in

that moment like I had been told oh you

can't do this and you can't do that as a

female by the agency and by culture and

and in that moment I was like you know

what Michelle just forget about what

everybody said you can and cannot do you

know this culture you walk in there and

you do what you have been working for

years to do yeah and so um I walked

through the door and I knew that

immediately I was going to be dealing

with a man who would be very excited to

be in the room with a woman it's totally

elicit but and so because it's elicit

and Haram it's so

exciting okay I wasn't even thinking

that direction that makes sense yes and

I don't you know people were like what

probably thinking why are you even

bringing this up but like I have you

have to understand these the context yes

that so I know they're going to be very

excited he you know is going to be so

excited to see me it's going to be um in

his mind a a bad thing to do that he

gets to do because they they act all

holier than now but really they're not

um so I walk in the door and I I walk

across the room knowing that he's

cataloging everything about me because

he's guys are really Street Smart so you

know what you look like how you carry

yourself how you're standing how you're

walking how how you're talking like

everything but I'm also doing the same

thing yes you are that's right I'm doing

it back um and I we're both assessing

each other the con constantly the entire

time but anyway I I know immediately

that he's going to have these uh

preconceived ideas of me as a female and

I have to challenge them so the first

thing I do is I I go to shake his hand

and I

sayum mammed and I start speaking to him

in Arabic

M fascinating because I'm watching his

eyes and there his eyes are like what is

going you're speaking

Arabic and I'm like yes yes I yes I

speak Arabic and so I tell people it's a

small thing but immediately I've got him

off his game because he thinks he knows

who I am but he doesn't really know who

I am he underestimated you mhm yes but

he still doesn't know what he's dealing

with but at least I've shocked him and

then I say to him

Abu

Muhammad I have been very impressed what

you have accomplished in along working

alongside your case officer and I know

that you know what you guys did last

week on the Intel you collected probably

saved dozens of lives and I want you to

know really appreciate that so you're

honoring himate that yes okay terrorist

who's bad but not the worst right you're

developing an asset who's going to help

you against worse bad guys yeah I know

that's the that's the that's where we're

splitting hairs here so he is a bad guy

who's decided to work with his enemy

because he for whatever reason and

there's a whole host of those why he

might say okay I'm GNA stop carrying out

attacks and I'm going to work with you

and a whole you know a lot of

motivations for that but and so he

really is a bad guy and he's K A lot of

people I'm certain but for now he's

working with us and you know you have to

honor that because if it's ever found

out that he is working with the CIA

that's it they don't ask questions first

you know how do you know he's not a

double

agent a Perpetual question in the CIA of

course oh my gosh yeah um I mean that is

what made that job so challenging and

the the what I realized was that we were

dealing with so many who were double

agents or Fabricators and so you always

had to walk in that that room you know

kind of assuming the worst until I can

figure out otherwise it's possible

double agent for sure and so anyway I I

compliment him that's the second thing I

did in that meeting and what you see is

this like this uh response it's like

you're their ego being stroked and

feeling

good and but also on a very you know uh

covert psychological level because I'm

complimenting

him I am raising my stature because I'm

telling him what I think of him uhhuh so

it's a very interesting kind of you know

because I know I'm starting out on

ground level with this guy and this is

one of the ways in which I'm raising

myself um and he doesn't even realize it

it's so subtle but you know I'm telling

him how I assess his information and and

his value as a person and then last but

not least I have one more thing that I

know I need to do in order to get this

guy to take me seriously and get down to

business and that is to show him I'm

intelligent and so I start speaking to

Abu Muhammad about you know some um

some of the the Dynamics of what's going

on in Iraq and the sectarian strife and

I'm not a kind of person who likes to

Showcase my strengths I I think I'm a

little bit more humble than that but in

these moments with these terrorists you

got to absolutely get out slap him in

the face with it yes this is fascinating

can't play small you know Market your

intelligence and so it was interesting

because his response was like wow you

really know a rock I'm like yes brother

I do I have been studying the Middle

East I've been travel he's like how do

you know Iraq like how do you know this

stuff I'm like I have been traveling I

have been studying and he like his mind

was blown because you know most

Americans and most non-arabs have no

idea and so it was such an out and know

like so different outlier for him but it

was weird because in that moment like

that third thing that I accomplished

that third Dynamic that third

a strategy was what turned him and in

that moment I could just you know feel

the tension in the room you could that

you could have cut with a knife earlier

suddenly dissipated wow and as Abu

Muhammad realized like oh my gosh I like

her she's really smart and I want to

work with her and she respects me which

means she has good

taste yes because there you know there's

a lot of

narcissist yes um so yeah and so it's

interesting to realize that what up

until that moment that what

my mentors in the CIA and others had

characterized as a weakness which would

be being a

female Smiley a smiley person like I'm

not a severe person I'm not like a break

it down kind you know yeah that my

personality would be seen as a weakness

in the Middle East but what they did not

take into

account was my emotional intelligence

and how my empathy and my knowledge of

the Middle East could be used in a

particular way to like make that my

strength

yes I love that yeah and I think so many

times especially I'm thinking in a

corporate setting right so someone who's

listening to this and maybe you're from

a different background maybe you're

female maybe you're a different ethnic

background and you don't have the Posh

pedigree and know all the inner circles

and you just feel like the little

outlier that everybody would look at and

be like sorry you're kind of capped in

your situation so whatever we see as

disqualifying we can come under a mental

cap and then we stop asserting ourselves

because we take on a victim role and so

everybody had told you kind of like

here's your limitations and if you had

taken that I think you would have played

small and it would have been a

self-fulfilling prophecy so how fun that

we watched you be a rogue agent in a

good way of breaking that glass ceiling

not through entitlement and being angry

and pushing your way and I think a lot

of uh females in particular tend to try

to become men because they think if I'm

aggressive I'm assertive I'm a

boss then all of a sudden you'll be

taken more seriously but we're saying in

the Middle East with a bad guy terrorist

you were able to use strategy and

psychology to actually win someone over

and create leverage that actually got to

your end goal so if we now position what

you just shared how might we parlay that

and say okay somebody is new on the job

and they have an opportunity they're in

front of someone this is an impossible

situation what keep would you give them

now from your

experience so I always tell people you

have to understand what other people

think of you so you know what you need

to

challenge so you know my colleague who's

250 pounds and 6'2 is going to be

perceived very differently than me it's

just you know it's just the way I longer

indifferent it's just reality reality

and it's not a bad or evil thing it's

just reality we all have to conceive

Notions of others so I just say like you

have to know what they are and I I also

say no one wants to be preached at

nobody wants to hear like I I can do

this I can do that they want to see you

do it so I I say don't win people over

with your words win people over with

your actions yes yeah so I could I could

you know you speak to my bosses and my

mentors till I'm blew in the face about

how I know the Middle East I have a

master's degree in Arab

studies how about I show them and you

know gave me a chance that's all I had

was to demonstrate that that expertise

and so it was in taking projects nobody

else wanted okay so demonstrating

instead of complaining they say show

don't tell yes absolutely show don't

tell yes there's so much power in the

act right and then it would the other

thing would be like okay so I was

prevented from doing a lot of this kind

of work those first few years so you

know what I did

it was very subversive I took projects

other people didn't want okay mhm so

you're willing to do the gr work to earn

the street cred so then now you're

recognized and set apart instead of

waiting for the Cherry Picked which I

think a lot of us right wrong are Indi

we're like hey I'm I'm more advanced

than that I'm more educated I have more

experience I should be picked for X Y or

Z and we're actually capping our ability

to show our distinctness by doing maybe

some lower opportunities that are

pedigreeing you to the next level yes in

fact you know that whole the reason why

I was even in that room doing that thing

was because I took something that no one

else wanted to do like everyone already

drowning from all the work that we had

going on in a war zone it was like no

one had time for another project and I

kept taking those projects and I said

you know what I am going to show my

expertise by doing a good job whether

people are looking or not come on

Integrity Integrity you know and so it's

it's playing the long game you know why

because it takes longer but when you get

there you get there big life is just a

demonstration of that like I'll never

force myself in a room I'll never out

debate someone I'm never going to talk

over other people I'm just going to wait

in the back I'm going to learn I'm going

to grow and I'm going to you know keep

pushing forward one step at a time and I

find that when you play the long game

it's far more impactful in the lot you

know than just yelling yelling to get

your way

and becoming something you're not or

becoming bitter and resentful feeling

like a victim and blaming instead

winning them over through your work

ethic Your Excellence your knowledge and

I think we don't hear that enough in

culture everything is supposed to be so

fair but in reality life is not fair and

so each person is responsible to say

okay what are the cards I'm dealt and

some of those actually may be an asset

if I know how to play it wisely so you

being a female

it with if you're listening to the audio

she has whiter faer skin not Middle

Eastern skin um so she doesn't

necessarily look like or her age was

probably younger she didn't have the

seniority all of her mentors are like

hey you know here's your limits and so

yet using that to her Advantage create

leverage with something that makes you

unique actually can help you stand out

more so what did you do for the mental

game of the long game right so how did

you mentally Steward doing the grunt

work being faithful you know Integrity

when no one's watching how did you do

that knowing you're You're Made for More

and yet I'm living in this season right

now that is probably one of the hardest

things to do yeah so hard because you

you have to wait in expectation that it

will get better and so I'm a person of

Faith um I'm a Christian and so I I know

from my scriptures that that is that's

part of what we're called to you know

focus on that which we can focus on God

right focus on the thing right in front

of our faces in faith that he will open

other doors and so what it says is

instead of this self aggrandisement and

self self-realization any cost it's

humility it's it's serving others it's

putting other people first believing

that when the time is right will get

pushed forward so being responsible in

the small things and then you will be

entrusted to the bigger things yeah I

love that okay so there was a mindset

that you had that you knew today's

really not flattering investment would

have a long-term yield and you didn't

have to be personally responsible so

having a faith system really helped you

mentally have the grit to stay faithful

when it was hard and have that

investment okay and so now you're in

that moment let's say it's a female

maybe younger trying to grow up in a

corporate situation and so I love the

honoring the other person and a little

bit of flattery of recognizing them um

and also showing your intelligence not

playing small but leaning in with

strength so what would that look like

from your own experience if you were

mentoring um a younger person in a

corporate setting so you know so let's

just say you're involved in sales for an

example and your job is to sell your

product product to your client you're

going to want to know your product so

well and you're going to want to know

your client as much as possible and

you're going to want to know the

marketplace so in other words you are

going to make yourself an expert on

something on that area that you're in

whatever that is yeah so you can't fake

expertise you can't fake authenticity

you know and so people see it and when

they see that you know what you're

talking about

boy that's that that's really at the at

the end of the day that's what matters

so I tell people who are in the

beginning of their career even midcareer

you've got to figure out something and

then you've got to become the best you

can in that area so for me it was

investing in um understanding Arab

culture so it started with um mission

trips right out of high school um it

started and these mission trips were to

hard places it was to Russia and Ukraine

after the fall of the Soviet Union um I

went and and studied abroad for a

semester in Egypt in Cairo of all places

right after the first Gulf War I still

can't believe my parents said yes kiding

like I decided that if I was going to

get anywhere I was probably going to

have to do things differently so there's

this well tread path well-worn path

everybody's going that direction I'm

going to differentiate Myself by

choosing things that are totally

different and weird and visual and so I

think a series of of um uh pushing

pasture fear is what made me an expert

and and in my area and what that enabled

me to shine I love that and there's an

expression kind of Cokey but it says

riches are in the niches and so instead

of trying to be a generalist of knowing

everything if you're listening right now

what is the one thing you're most

passionate that causes you to come most

alive and then really Niche down decide

this is where I want to be an expert and

get as much life experience everything

you can to know about that that way when

you're in the room and you know there's

the natural flutters and nervous and all

of those things and we'll talk about how

to Steward that but your intelligence

your study your preparation ahead of

time really does shine through and so if

we're not putting in the preparation

then we're going to get in that moment

and now we're not going to have anything

to say to lean in

so for you when you were in those

moments what helped you ground your

central nervous system that your body

could calm down even though I mean these

are literally life and deaths like it's

not just like do I get promoted or not

like I'm literally sitting against

someone who is fine with killing people

who look like me and I am a female in

this room like how did you do that yeah

so um it's a very interesting thing that

you're asked to do when you're serving

undercover abroad so you're you're

holding covert meetings with sources and

that is illegal in these countries so if

you're caught in your um in your car

meeting with your source and you blow

your Source first of all you could get

them

killed or you know maybe best case

scenarios you get them thrown in jail um

and then you get yourself best case

scenario uh thrown out of country or you

get jailed so the the stakes are

incredibly high and so you are you know

taught to um you know how do you how do

you carry out a safe Source meeting how

do you drive a surveillance detection

route to be sure you're not being

followed to your meeting so um talk

about nerves talk about yeah Stakes are

high yeah Stakes are super high and so

you're running around breaking the laws

of another country it's it's a crazy

thing you're being entrusted with by the

our government okay so what how how do

you get control control of your nervous

system how do you do that thing in

training what they do is they they they

um put you in increasingly stressful

situations so they they start small and

they turn up the heat and turn up the

heat and turn up the heat and so what

you do and then the other thing is so

you start small before you go big um but

the other thing is you learn to plan for

things to go wrong I love that so before

you carry out an operation you try to um

ideate like 50 ways this could go

sideways I'm planning this uh Source

meeting and I'm going to run this

surveillance detection route and we're

going to meet in this location and I'm

going to debrief my source for

intelligence and then I'm going to

return wherever to the office or home or

whatever what are 50 things that could

happen and so what you do is you go

through those things and you plan for

them if this happens then I will do this

if that happens I will react in this way

if this goes sideways I will react by

doing this and so you plan for all the

problems wow that's so good again you

know that the one thing you didn't plan

for is the one thing that will happen

it's gonna happen right number 51

possible thing is GNA happen but because

you've trained your brain to expect

problems you trained your brain to think

through scenarios of how to answer them

you now have a Nimble brain you have a

neural network that's been tested so

when that thing you didn't anticipate

happens you are mentally capable of

reacting quickly not losing your focus

and responding in a way that's that's

not going to get yourself killed you

know responding in a way it's the best

way possible yeah you're building a

strength for something that many people

hate about themselves and in therapy

we're trying to train people not to

allow catastrophizing right because

catastrophizing is where my brain thinks

of all the worst case scenario but it

then just ruminates like a hamster will

and thinks about that and anybody

listening right now if you deal with

anxiety this is the most real thing

because one you don't have a scenario

where it works out so you're actually

just reinforcing the negative being bad

instead of what you're describing of

training your brain and that region of

problem solving to say and then I'll be

okay and then there will be a solution

and then I'll be nimble because you

don't continue with that brain that that

um that kind of thinking in the moment

you do it in the office and you leave it

yeah because if you're running that

surveillance detection route and your PR

your brain is still going through like

you just mentioned yeah all the things

that could go wrong you will fall apart

and you won't do anything right you

won't detect the surveillance following

you right so the idea is that you have a

shut off moment I I'm prepared now we're

done now I'm executing and so that

that's training your brain to

focus execution phase because if you

don't then then you will miss what

you're supposed to see exactly so give

us the key how do we start ruminating

and catastrophizing and then stop how do

we train oursel to use a superpower of

recognizing bad things can happen

but then now having a moment to say okay

pause and switch

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