Alen Faljic on Soft Data and Design Thinking (Full Interview)

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Alan, an expert in design thinking from a business perspective, shares his knowledge on how to blend qualitative and quantitative data to better understand customers. He emphasizes the importance of empathy and starting with ill-defined problems to innovate effectively. Alan's experience with IDEA, a company that specializes in design thinking, highlights the value of customer-centric approaches and the power of soft data in crafting impactful solutions. He offers practical advice on conducting interviews, synthesizing findings, and creating actionable prototypes to validate ideas before full-scale development.

Takeaways

• 🌟 Design Thinking is a methodology that starts with an ill-defined problem and works inductively to find solutions, focusing on customer empathy and qualitative data.
• 🔍 Empathy in business is crucial for understanding customers' emotional and functional needs, providing a competitive advantage through better product and marketing strategy design.
• 💡 Soft data, or qualitative data, is less academic and more about understanding the 'why' behind customer actions, which is often missed in hard data analytics.
• 🗣️ Engaging with customers through interviews is essential for gathering insights that cannot be obtained through quantitative data alone.
• 📍 Defining customer profiles and conducting 10-12 interviews helps in understanding the target audience and their perspectives on problems and potential solutions.
• 🎁 Offering compensation for interview participants can increase response rates and willingness to share insights, even if it's non-monetary like a gift or discount.
• 🌐 When targeting a specific market, it's vital to conduct interviews with local people to understand cultural nuances and context.
• 📝 Keeping detailed notes from interviews is critical for later analysis and identifying patterns in customer feedback.
• 🔄 Using prototypes to test assumptions and validate ideas with potential customers before fully developing a product or service is a cost-effective approach.
• 🔍 Both qualitative and quantitative testing methods have their place; qualitative for initial insights and quantitative for validating larger trends and assumptions.
• 🚀 Learning from customer feedback should lead to actionable insights that guide product development, marketing strategies, and business decisions.

Q & A

What is the core concept of Design Thinking?

Design Thinking is a way of thinking that focuses on solving business challenges through empathy and understanding the end-user's perspective. It starts with an ill-defined problem and works inductively to find solutions, always putting the customer at the center.

How does Alan define 'soft data' in the context of Design Thinking?

Alan refers to 'soft data' as qualitative data that comes from understanding customers on a deeper level. It involves gathering insights through conversations and interviews, which help in grasping the emotional and functional needs of the customers.

What is the significance of empathy in Design Thinking?

Empathy in Design Thinking is crucial as it allows one to understand another person's feelings and thoughts. It moves beyond analytics to a human level, focusing on the customer's experience and needs, which ultimately leads to designing better products and services.

How does Alan suggest overcoming the fear of rejection or embarrassment when talking to potential customers?

Alan suggests framing the interaction as a conversation rather than an interview. He advises starting with casual questions to make the person feel comfortable, and emphasizing that the goal is not to sell anything but to have a discussion.

What is the importance of local research when targeting a new market?

Local research is vital because culture varies greatly from one place to another. Understanding the local culture and community is essential to gain insights into the target market's needs and behaviors, which can significantly influence the success of a product or service.

How does Alan recommend conducting interviews to gather qualitative data?

Alan recommends defining the questions to be answered and the profiles of people to be interviewed. He suggests setting up 6 to 12 interviews, compensating participants for their time, and using both online platforms and in-person meetings to gather diverse perspectives.

What should one do with the learnings gathered from Design Thinking interviews?

The learnings should be actionable, meaning they should direct changes in the product or marketing strategy. They can be used to create prototypes, which can then be tested and refined based on feedback from the interviews.

How does Alan approach the challenge of potential bias in qualitative research?

Alan acknowledges that qualitative research can be subjective and biased. To mitigate this, he advises not discussing the solution until the end of the interview, using extreme examples to test reactions, and focusing on understanding the 'why' behind customer needs rather than their responses to a specific idea.

What is the role of online communities and reviews in gathering customer insights?

Online communities and reviews can provide valuable insights into customer preferences and pain points. By observing discussions and reading reviews of competitors' products, one can learn about what customers like and dislike, which can inform product development and marketing strategies.

How does Alan suggest using the insights from customer interviews?

Alan suggests using the insights to create and test prototypes. These prototypes can be presented to interviewees or a wider audience to gather feedback. The goal is to validate assumptions and ensure that the product or service aligns with customer needs and desires.

What are the next steps after conducting Design Thinking interviews?

After conducting interviews, one should synthesize the data to identify patterns and insights. These learnings should then be used to create actionable design principles that guide the development of prototypes, which can be further tested and refined based on feedback.

Outlines

00:00

🤝 Introduction to Design Thinking and Soft Data

The conversation begins with an introduction to Alan, an expert in design thinking from a business perspective. Alan explains that design thinking involves using a design methodology to solve business challenges, focusing on soft data or qualitative data. This approach starts with an ill-defined problem and works inductively to find solutions, emphasizing customer-centricity and empathy. The discussion highlights the importance of understanding customers' emotional and functional needs to design better products and strategies.

05:03

🌟 Empathy in Business and Technology

The conversation delves into the role of empathy in business and technology, contrasting traditional business and technology-oriented management approaches. It discusses how empathy provides a competitive advantage by understanding customers' needs better. The discussion includes examples of how companies like Apple have used design thinking and empathy to develop superior products. Alan also shares a story about a startup called PillPack that used empathy to identify the needs of older patients managing multiple prescriptions.

10:04

💡 Conducting Interviews and Overcoming Resistance

Alan shares strategies for conducting interviews to gather qualitative data, emphasizing the importance of talking to customers to understand their problems and perspectives. He discusses how to approach potential interviewees, compensate them for their time, and the benefits of in-person interviews. Alan also addresses the challenges of overcoming natural human resistance to talking with strangers and shares his experiences of live testing in Brussels.

15:06

🌍 Understanding Geographic and Cultural Differences

The discussion highlights the importance of understanding local culture when entering new markets. It emphasizes the need to conduct local research and interact with people from the target market, whether through direct interviews or observing online communities. The conversation also touches on the value of reading reviews and feedback on competitive products to gain insights into customer preferences and pain points.

20:08

📝 Crafting Effective Interview Questions

Alan provides advice on creating discussion guides for interviews, focusing on open-ended questions that avoid leading the interviewee. He emphasizes the importance of framing interviews as conversations rather than interrogations, and the value of allowing interviewees to express their thoughts freely. The discussion also covers how to avoid bias and confirmatory questions, ensuring that the interview process remains open and exploratory.

25:10

🔍 Analyzing Interview Findings and Patterns

The conversation discusses the process of analyzing qualitative data from interviews, looking for patterns and insights. Alan explains how to organize and categorize notes and quotes, and the importance of avoiding recency bias. He also talks about the role of intuition in identifying exciting points and the need to validate findings across multiple interviews to establish patterns and learnings.

30:11

🎯 Applying Learnings to Product Development

Alan talks about the importance of making learnings from interviews actionable, guiding changes to products or campaigns. He explains how to use learnings to create and test prototypes, allowing for validation of assumptions before fully developing a product. The discussion includes strategies for both qualitative and quantitative testing of prototypes, emphasizing the value of testing different aspects of a product independently.

35:14

🚀 Transitioning from Design Thinking to Entrepreneurship

Alan shares his personal journey from focusing on design thinking to entrepreneurship, where he now aims to teach designers business thinking. He discusses his current work, which includes a podcast where he interviews business designers and explores their paths to becoming business-minded. Alan also mentions his recent venture, launching a product with ten students, and encourages those interested in business thinking to learn more through his podcast and other resources.

Keywords

💡Design Thinking

Design Thinking is a problem-solving approach that encourages empathy, experimentation, and iterative learning. It starts with understanding the user's needs and experiences, then moves towards prototyping and testing potential solutions. In the video, Alan uses Design Thinking to help businesses solve challenges by focusing on the end-user and incorporating qualitative data into the process.

💡Qualitative Data

Qualitative data refers to non-numerical information that provides insights into reasons, opinions, and motivations. It is often collected through interviews, observations, and other forms of field research. In the context of the video, qualitative data is used to understand customers on a deeper level, beyond what quantitative data like analytics can provide.

💡Empathy

Empathy in a business context involves understanding and relating to the emotions and perspectives of customers. It is a core component of Design Thinking, as it drives the creation of products and services that genuinely meet user needs. Empathy allows businesses to connect with their customers on a human level, leading to more effective and impactful solutions.

💡Business Challenges

Business challenges are the obstacles or complex issues that organizations face in their operations, strategy, or market positioning. These can range from increasing competition and changing consumer behavior to product development and innovation. Addressing these challenges often requires innovative thinking and strategic problem-solving.

💡Inductive Reasoning

Inductive reasoning is a method of reasoning where generalizations are drawn from specific observations or instances. It involves building a theory or explanation from the details of particular cases, moving from specific to general. In the video, inductive reasoning is contrasted with deductive reasoning, which starts with a general statement and moves to specific conclusions.

💡Prototypes

Prototypes are preliminary models of a product or service that allow for testing and refinement before the final version is created. They are used to validate ideas, gather user feedback, and identify potential issues or improvements. Prototyping is a key step in the Design Thinking process, enabling iterative learning and adaptation.

💡Customer Feedback

Customer feedback refers to the opinions, suggestions, and critiques provided by users or potential customers about a product or service. It is a valuable source of information for businesses looking to improve or refine their offerings. Actively seeking and incorporating customer feedback can lead to better product design, enhanced user experiences, and ultimately, more successful products.

💡Interviews

Interviews are a research method used to gather information through direct conversation with individuals. In a business or design context, interviews can be structured or unstructured, and are often used to understand user experiences, needs, and preferences. They are a critical component in the Design Thinking process for collecting qualitative data and insights.

💡Soft Data

Soft data, also known as 'qualitative data,' refers to non-quantifiable, subjective information that provides insights into human behavior, motivations, and experiences. It complements hard data (quantitative) by offering a deeper understanding of the 'why' behind user actions and preferences.

💡End-User Focus

End-user focus means centering the design and development process around the needs, experiences, and perspectives of the final user of a product or service. This approach ensures that solutions are tailored to provide the best possible user experience and that the product or service is relevant and valuable to its target audience.

Highlights

Alan introduces the concept of Design Thinking as a way of thinking, emphasizing its inductive approach to solving business challenges.

Design Thinking is contrasted with traditional business school methodologies, focusing on empathy and understanding the customer's perspective.

The importance of 'soft data' and qualitative methods is discussed, highlighting their value in complementing quantitative data.

Alan shares his experience with live testing and the challenges of overcoming natural human resistance to engage with strangers.

The process of conducting interviews is detailed, including defining questions, selecting participants, and compensating for their time.

The significance of observing online communities and leveraging customer feedback from reviews is emphasized for market research.

Alan discusses the value of framing interviews as conversations rather than interrogations, and the importance of listening over selling.

The concept of 'proxity bias' is introduced, highlighting the tendency to give more weight to recent data.

The methodology for synthesizing interview data is outlined, stressing the importance of identifying patterns and learnings.

Alan explains how to use insights from interviews to create and test prototypes, emphasizing the iterative nature of the process.

The role of empathy in understanding customer needs is discussed, with examples from Apple and other Silicon Valley companies.

The importance of local research and understanding cultural differences when entering new markets is highlighted.

Alan shares his personal journey from being an introvert to becoming comfortable with conducting interviews.

The concept of 'extreme examples' is introduced as a tool for steering interviews and uncovering unbiased insights.

The value of second-layer validation questions in interviews is discussed to better understand the magnitude of the problem.

Alan's current work on teaching designers business thinking is mentioned, along with his podcast 'Beyond Users'.

The importance of testing assumptions independently through prototypes is emphasized for effective product development.

Transcripts

[Music]

we are doing something very special now

let me introduce you my colleague Alan

hi Alan hello everyone hi so Alan is in

Berlin and the reason why we are calling

him is because he used to work for idea

and he's a great expert in design

thinking from business perspective so

you know that we came into this very

special situation when we on the one

side had a bunch of data from Google

Analytics and Facebook audience insights

but for some of you it might be more

interesting to also figure out how to

find customers with more qualitative

methods meaning soft data in our jargon

and I couldn't think of a better person

to resolve that than Alan Alan what did

I miss I mean you do so many stuff that

you should emphasize something for

students go ahead no I mean that's I

think that's what's the most relevant

for the students is yeah I'm a business

designer which basically means I use

design thinking or design methodology to

solve business challenges so as you

mentioned my I work for idea which is a

company that popularized and also

developed this method and basically what

we do is we use design thinking to solve

business challenges and I think I guess

this is what we're going to talk about

and at the core of this thing is what

you say soft data and what we call

qualitative data yep you know soft data

it's a little bit less academic but yeah

I'm dying to know what is this idea

methodology design thinking I mean could

you walk as role model yeah so first of

all Design Thinking is a way of thinking

I know when I first heard about this I'm

thinking I thought it has more to do

with aesthetics but what I realized it's

actually a way of thinking and the best

way I put it is that when you usually go

to any business school the way they

teach you to think is deductively you

know you start with 10 options and then

you

to work your way to the first and the

best one and the way the design

methodology work is that you start with

something that's really inherently

ill-defined and you work your way out of

it

I think it's called inductively and then

you go back right so it's a great way a

great methodology especially for cases

where you don't have enough data and

where it's a big hairy problem that you

don't know how to deal with so what you

can do there is actually have one

ill-defined question and work your way

through with basically talking to

customers and then if you're going out

what to do next at the heart of this

methodology this is the last thing I

have to mention is that and this is at

the core is a customer right so this is

what makes this methodology special and

different from different business

methodologies is that it always puts the

customer the end-user into the focus and

it uses empathy instead of question

there's analytics you know it's really

very much just you as a person trying to

understand another person cool that's

really interesting and I won't go a

little bit off stream script here

because I just had this idea this notion

of Steve Jobs you know everybody thinks

that he was this wacko crazy genius that

just like invented iPod because I don't

know he was sleeping on the couch and

suddenly had this amazing idea but what

people fail to realize is that there is

a lot of empathy at the heart of

everything was being designed in Silicon

Valley and elsewhere so when we say

empathy I mean it sounds so fuzzy he's

so warm and fuzzy could you define

empathy further it's just like what it

means to be empathetic some examples

just don't send me darling yeah so maybe

just to build on your Apple story is

actually Apple has worked with I do this

is also the heritage of the company to

develop for example the first Apple

Mouse and so a lot of these products

that we see at Apple and other big

company

especially from the Silicon Valley

because the methodology is originating

from the Silicon Valley are using this

methodology to actually have this

superior advantage of customers and this

is what empathy is right so empathy is

it means if you think about it

traditionally you know you have managers

who are very much business oriented then

you have some managers who are very much

technologically oriented and most of

these managers or leaders they when they

make decisions they're making making

these decisions from out of these two

origins or perspectives right so what's

best for your business or how do we make

the best technology and that has worked

quite well for the last I don't know how

many years but with the let's say with

more and more countries and companies

and people mastering these two aspects

the business and the technology you have

the inflow and a lot of competition in

these two levels so empathy actually

gives you the superior advantage because

you understand your customers better you

understand their emotional and

functional needs and through that you

can design better products right because

sometimes to design a good product and

to design a good marketing strategy you

don't need to know you do need to have a

better technological business knowledge

but you need to have a better knowledge

of your customers for example there is a

really nice story of a startup that

actually worked with the ideal called

pill pack a pill pack came to idea five

years ago with an idea we want to

disrupt the pharmacist and basically

what we did in the first phase which is

the empathy right we went out and with

it interviews with users or potential

users and we figure out actually that

the space where these pharmacy should

play in is basically in the management

of older patients or basically

prescriptions for all the patients

because they have the biggest pain right

because they're the ones who have 10 15

different pills that have to take per

day so by doing these interviews we

actually realized in what setting they

are thinking about their problems so the

patients and what the potential what the

potential solution could be right so in

a nutshell empathy is really

looking from the perspective of your

end-users talking to them not just

looking at the numbers but really

talking to them to realize what do they

feel and what are they thinking about

and how important is the problem trying

to solve to them beautiful nice is that

and we have so many light learnings for

students here you know because when you

are searching for your ultimate target

audience here is how you would do it you

would sit in your living room or in your

office depends how well you're doing in

life second step would be to go and like

do a little hypothesis based on some

data that you somehow caught in Google

Analytics and I loved your example

because for example with elderly people

you could never get this nugget out of

exactly impossible and I mean it could

have ten or twelve iteration to come up

with something like that that you could

simply follow up by figure out if you

just went there and talked to a couple

of users and easy at it sound it's not

easy when you do it and I know that

because I was doing live testing on the

streets of Brussels and people thought

that I'm collecting money for drugs so

tell me how do you get through this

aversion for this like natural human

resistance to talk with people that you

don't know you know being shy away I

don't know it's actually pretty simple

so what we do in the beginning of every

project is we set up it could be

everything from six to twelve interviews

usually so you well define so first of

all you define the questions that you

want to answer right so this is so it

could even be who are my customers you

know and then you define twelve

different people you want to talk to you

maybe have six different profiles you

say okay I want to talk to two people

who are just 20 and they're just

starting their career maybe two who just

got their first child or a dog maybe

somebody who just moved abroad whatever

right and then you define your profiles

and then you start looking for these

kind of people if you are working in a

company that already has some customers

you can just basically try to

to your customers and you what we like

to do is just say okay I send an email

to a certain segment as people or a

hundred people whatever and just say hey

we're doing this research we want to see

if anyone we basically want to develop

better products for you basically the

pitch for the research and then you say

if you have time if you want to join

with us appreciate it and we can give

you 50 euro as a gift or $50 I'm missing

it forever and you ask a few questions

to see if they're the right profile and

then you just set up the call or you

meet in person right so I've done both

I've done a Skype interviews where you

just talk to a person for 60 minutes and

I've done in-person interviews it's

important to know that in-person

interviews are always better because you

can go to a person's office or home and

you can see some things that you

wouldn't realize through just talking on

a Skype and as I mentioned before this

is super important because what the data

with a hard day that doesn't tell you is

the why or it doesn't tell you the

context of the person right and when we

designing the best strategy or the best

approach for marketing or even just the

product itself it's really important to

understand these whys and the context

we're designing for so to go back to the

main topic is we do the interviews ten

to twelve of them you basically need to

find the right people and the way you go

beyond this you know I'm afraid or I'm

shy you basically just try to compensate

for their time we always did that we

always more or less paid for people's

time to participate and that worked fine

so the only reason or the only situation

where that doesn't work is if you're

trying to do b2b interviews and you know

what I've offend somebody

but in that for my experience in that

situations most of the time you don't

even have to compensate you just say hey

we want to create a better experience

for you and you can do these interviews

like that cool and compensation can also

be like informal discount maybe just

like visit an office I'll give you a

t-shirt we'll buy your lunch it doesn't

necessarily have to be money for the

startup people who are bootstrapping and

don't imagine how to pay for this yeah

no exactly so

for those of you who are more in the

startup situation the way I also like to

think about it is that if you can't find

ten people who would be your potential

customers it's also uh one step where

you should ask yourself am I even doing

the right idea you know if you can't

really think of ten friend it doesn't

have to be friends you know but if

you're not in that community where you

can gather people who are even eager to

talk to you then the question is oh well

maybe I should just change what I'm

working on you know the good exists

right yeah yeah the same thing was

discussed the other time at a startup

school at Y Combinator so I'm listening

to their lecture and guy said like

exactly the same thing who are you to be

fixing the problem people don't know how

likely it is if you're not part of the

community the whole idea becomes really

shaky tell me something else for all the

international students so you know that

a lot of people like Rami Europe want to

target their products to the US or

people from Asia want it to enter

Australian markets typical situation

like that can you do interviews in your

local surroundings or you have to find

people who are geographically on your

target market what's up with that that's

a very very important question yeah you

definitely have to talk to the local

people that's super important because

culture is a living thing and we had the

biggest insights when we went and we try

to go into a new market because you in

your community have certain rules

certain culture and if you go elsewhere

it's completely different so you always

have to do the local research so if

you're new you're just I mean one thing

you can do is just go and read it find

the right community and maybe just find

some people you can talk with there or

certain slags slack channels so yeah the

geographic component is really important

fantastic and I loved how you also

mention online communities of course

like going and talking

to them with per iron person would be

ideal but if idea is like still very

gentle and you don't feel that you want

to invest as much resources to that you

can just like go and observe them first

how do they behave in online

you're gonna tease that's that's that's

a big one right so if you just read when

they are writing about you can learn a

lot and also if a competitive product is

on Amazon or if a competitor has face

book reviews or Google reviews just take

one evening and just read everything and

just take your notes you know you can

learn a lot what do people like what are

they complaining about and just have a

list of to do's and not to do that

that's that's even easier but never I

would say never just rely on the

secondary data always try to really talk

to people and really get the sense for

them because what happens a lot is if

you just if I just send you a

questionnaire with let's say I'm working

on the new book and what I do I send you

a question about that book what should

be in the table of contents so you're

gonna give me feedback on that the table

of contents but if I just give you that

questioner what I'm not gonna learn is

are you even reading books should I even

write a book you miss the whole context

I already reading books already

listening to books you know you become

too phonological tunnel-visioned by just

asking very specific questions if you

don't open up in the beginning well you

should definitely write a book because

it will look great on your bio and you

have so much knowledge so this you've

got it covered for it but yeah totally

appreciated how you really bring in

these concrete examples from life you

know because this is how students

progress and get like actionable ideas

to test as well as some tools some

structure because like talking to people

it's deep it's difficult for the

majority of people a part if you are

very extrovert you know there is fear of

rejection fear of looking stupid in

front of audience like that you are

going to make a fool of yourself

mental crap like that have you ever been

facing this or not really yeah I have

I'm actually an introvert to a certain

degree and so when I join I do that's a

very extroverted culture and I was

actually an extreme introvert at that

culture and basically when we did the

first interviews I was really feeling

comfortable you know talking to someone

for 60 minutes taking notes trying to

keep the conversation flowing and making

them feel okay isn't easy but I think

the easiest thing you can do is actually

frame it in your mind as a conversation

it's not an interview it's almost like

going with somebody for a coffee and

actually that's much better interview

because you if you frame it as a

conversation and I always do in the

beginning of the interview say hey I'm

not here to sell you anything I'm not

here to to ask you these 20 questions I

have it's it's a moral discussion right

and then you just start off like a maybe

can you just introduce yourself like

what do you do what are your hobbies and

then you start talking so if you frame

it in a way because all of us are more

or less if you're thinking about

marketing or starting a business you are

enough extroverted that at least you can

go for a coffee I would say right and

that's what it is just frame it as a

going for a coffee no not an interview I

love it

these are actionable tips because like

also like tell me about yourself is such

a powerful question because everybody

likes to talk about it's their favorite

subject III if you're like right through

emails and stuff like that ya do wanna

like put an outer mental note here and I

actually learned that when I was

analyzing how to sell you know and

somebody said that the best sales

pitches are the ones that you spend

eighty percent listening or something

like that so I don't know if it is like

a stereotype but at least like when I am

sometimes interviewed you cannot shake

the feeling that you are believing so

because like people are talking about

their solution and you don't really care

about their solution

you don't want to be rude so you just

let it go exactly that's a big point and

thanks for bringing this up so basically

the first thing I say is also I'm not

selling anything but then I follow up

with not selling anything it means when

I go into interview I'm put it this way

the interviewee should know what your

idea is about that's your goal if they

don't know what your idea is about

they're gonna give you an honest answer

if you tell them hey I'm working on this

and this and this and actually the hair

is of red the wireframe okay now let's

talk about you

you already frame the conversation a way

that they're gonna try to please you

willingly or unwillingly and that's not

a good place to be so that's why you're

not talking about the solution you're

talking about the problems there is a

small caveat here at the end of the

interview once you get all the more or

less subjective data then you can still

not pitch your idea but at least say hey

we're thinking about doing this and the

reason why we're thinking about doing

this is because we think we'd solve this

problem and then you give an opportunity

to the person to say oh actually I don't

have this problem or I do have this

problem so you always frame it in a way

of thinking talking about problems not

solutions and that's why having the

right questions is super important and

we can also talk about questions if that

will be like a qualification for the

interview so if I say to you I don't

have this problem you wouldn't be

inviting me on interview wouldn't you it

depends on what stage of the project is

in because sometimes you're looking for

the main problem because sometimes even

the problem itself is an assumption

you're trying to solve right so I'm most

of the time not looking for specific

people who have specific problem but

more like a general interest for example

if I am designing and you I don't know a

new insurance policy not policy but yeah

new insurance package for youngsters I'm

not gonna just try to invite so I'm

basically what I'm gonna try to do is

think what kind

what what are all the different problems

they might have and not just focus on

one to see which of these problem is the

biggest one so one one one could be

maybe young people who are very very

interested in sports

it may be some who travel a lot and

maybe some who just got their first

child so you're looking for different

live situations and then you basically

talk to each of these to see which of

these has the biggest problem and then

you can focus in just one so if you're

in that stage we're just focus on one

problem yeah then that would be a

qualifications but it really depends on

the stage of the project cool

that sounds very intelligent it really

does I was they were thinking about this

subject so much I mean I did interviews

but they were made with like a script

from the internet you know of course

like naturally you would go and ask some

follow-up questions but ethically yeah I

want to like usability lab or something

like that and I just commit like b2b

interview script because this is how I

tackle this problem I mean I have the

knowledge what's the better way to do it

yeah the best tip in terms of the

creating a discussion guide is two

things first of all think about can I

answer this question a lot of the times

I see questions they're really like hey

how do you feel about how you feel about

taking vacations yes awesome and then

you're done basically or do you like

taking vacations so a much better

question I mean this this is a really

bad example but just to kind of yeah

yeah but if I ask you hey what was the

last vacation you took and then you tell

me oh I went there okay and then ask

okay so let's start in the beginning so

when did you first get idea to go there

and then oh cuckoo go so okay how did

you booked the tickets who did you

consult to go it I mean it was just you

or did you talk to your husband your

girlfriend boyfriend whatever okay cool

so how far in advance did you book it

okay so where did you book two tickets

where did you stay all that stuff so I

wanna

basically doing is analyzing how they've

made a decision how they went through

the user experience so basically I

always look at the user experience right

so I think okay so what is the first

point of contact or press first time

they realize they have this problem and

then you basically bring them to the

solution or to the current state right

so if this is I've been taking vacation

is the example I just said if it's about

the banking then you think about okay

when is the first time you open the bank

account where where when why if you're

talking about the sports so when did you

get in love with this sport whatever you

know super cool I'm begging you please

send us some links so I can link them

under the source I'll send you a few

links because I would personally like to

try it out now I mean it's so exciting

because yeah I would literally go and

ask people hi how often do you take

vacations or something like that you

know but it makes much more sense to

structure them in a way that you just

present it because it opens up so nicely

it's not like this how to say

interrogation it's a journey

yeah because what you've done in

interviews actually you can what we do

is in the beginning you do the

qualitative data because the qualitative

gives you an option for two things first

you can learn the Y which is usually the

problem with a quality quantitative data

it doesn't tell you why something

happened it tells you that it happened

so the first thing is it tells you the Y

and the second thing is you can learn

something you weren't ready to learn

because you all know the things we know

we know that we know that there are

certain things we don't know but what

usually kills our idea is the things we

don't know we don't know and by opening

the interview in a way where you're

talking to them and they can speak their

mind you actually can and you usually do

get the topics you wouldn't expect to

get to and that's a good thing it's

harder to analyze but it's it's much

better I am a little bit concerned

because I just had this thought that you

know as a business founder or somebody

who's extremely into

their product you might be inclined

towards shaping questions in a way that

they would confirm what you're thinking

about you know this being self biased

because I wouldn't like to learn to

understand that my idea is or

that nobody needs it and that's why it's

so interesting for me to talk to you

because you have been doing this

professionally you know in an agency so

without like probably having those

emotions yeah but our clients had the

emotion so I know what you're talking

about because many clients or certain

members within the client group had

their ideas they were trying to push and

what happened many times in the

interview settings is that sometimes

they were trying to pitch their idea oh

no no they don't get it yeah exactly

exactly that's than the point right so

the client didn't get it the client

wasn't right I mean the interview we

didn't get it the client the interview

wasn't the right profile etc so first of

all qualitative research is I was even

more subjective to your bias so if

you're trying to prove something you can

always prove it but there are certain

things you can do to avoid that so first

of all is like we said don't talk about

your solution until the very last five

minutes of the interview so first really

try to learn what is saying a second of

all when you're validating your solution

try to always ask second layer

validation questions like okay have you

ever tried to solve this problem

differently because if you're just

talking about your product what happens

a lot is people say yeah I have this

problem but they didn't tell you how big

their problem is a lot of the times when

you show them certain solution they're

like oh cool I want to have that but

then you actually realize they have

never invested a single minute or a

single euro or dollar to actually solve

this problem which means this is a bad

problem to have but mostly in terms of

the questions what you can do is the way

you should steer the conversation is

that that the interview does know what

you want to get out of it and the way

you can do this is to always give

extremes right so let's say that you

have an idea X and when you actually try

to pitch the idea X you don't just show

the idea

but you show the why which is maybe

another extreme for example if I was

doing the book right what I could say is

hey actually I'm thinking about doing

this book but I'm also thinking about

doing a workshop so this could be in

this in this example what I'm actually

doing it is testing the format but if I

want also test the content I can also do

I can give extreme examples that are

like really on the opposite sides and I

can see which way the interviewee

gravitates towards because they don't

know what I'm looking for and then I can

stand and mind you that what we're

looking for is not X or Y but I'm

looking more into the why they set X or

Y because this Y's are we gonna tell me

what I actually should do if it makes

sense yeah it does because like I was

thinking how I would answer your

question and for me it was like totally

do the workshop because you have some

experience in helping people in guiding

them through and honestly I started

reading books I do listen to a lot of

audiobooks it's my car but I would

rather commit to your methodology for a

weekend you know to just like having

some pouring commitment then having

another book such as this one it's a

great book though and hope that I will

be able to read it look at this I just

had it here but actually you know what's

interesting to me you you just gave me

an answer right by also you gave me the

set right I just gave you x and y but

you said I am actually also listening to

books and this could be the moment where

you say oh so actually maybe I

don't need even need to write it I can

do the audio and this is this is just an

example of how you open up things yeah

but you should totally do all the things

because like you're developing your

portfolio so nicely and you have this

podcast now for a year more 2 years but

I did I'm actually not seriously

thinking about it this is just an is an

example for little no but I got excited

you should totally

do it come on next time we will talk

I'll ask you what have you been doing

towards this direction cool amazing good

all right so we are progressing very

nicely here we did ten or twelve

interviews we selected people that make

sense and are representative to target

market now we talk to them we ask them

the right questions and we came up with

a couple of notes know what so first of

all take good notes the notes is super

important there's I don't know how it's

cool but there is a certain bias

proximity bias I think basically means

that the data we have recently acquired

we put we give it much higher weight

than the data we gave we acquired

earlier what this means is basically

after the first two interviews you're

super excited you know exactly what you

have to do with your product but you

calm down and you say okay I still have

to do eight of them let's do them

quickly but actually even those

interviews are great and then by the

tenth interview the tenth was super

great so basically you forget what you

get got out of the first one taking

those it's super important to prevent

this from happening because at the end

what we have to do is we have to look

what we actually did usually is we would

have basically a war like this full of

post-its and on that war we will have

ten pictures of that ten interviewees

and then ten to fifteen post-its of each

interview basically notes + quotes and

then at the end we will start looking

for the patterns right so this is this

basically means we are looking what have

we learned and this is a process that

it's so easy to overlook and do wrong

because we're not used it we use to just

making quick assumptions like I said

before right and this is a lot about

massaging figuring out what have we

learned and it basically just means

looking at vast quantities of data and

looking for patterns and the different

ways to do it you can just color code

the things you think are connect

you can put them in groups and create

categories and through that you're then

shaping the learnings right and now that

sounds like magic yeah this is the

hardest part I would say the process

because here you basically have to be

willing to promise if you do this

interviews alone you you have a feeling

by the tenth interview that you know

what you have learned but if you really

don't go through and I would usually

take we would usually take one week to

do that right it takes a week to do the

good synthesis I mean if you've done all

the interviews you can be faster two

days but I would never do it faster than

two days it because you need some time

to actually read through again see what

are the patterns what are the what have

I learned

and then reread next day again and see

if still makes sense how do you make

those judgments are you comparing like

frequency of something that was said I

mean what is the original here so this

is where the soft data is very different

from the hard data because here one part

is basically your your intuition is

because you were in the interviews you

first of all have to understand where

people got excited where people who

wanted to talk so if when I set up on

vacation and you told me the yeah I

booked it at that website and web that

website sucked for that and that reason

it could be just one data point because

but because the emotion is not so strong

you have to give it a higher weight but

it's not you know it's not like I'm

putting away there are and this is three

times more important and the next thing

but at the end when I'm reading through

everything I'm trying to create these

buckets of things that I learned so

frequency is definitely important right

so if you just get got one insight from

one person and all nine others haven't

said anything about it you cannot prove

it we would usually say that you would

have to get the same pattern from at

least three persons to conclude it right

and it's not gonna be like all three are

gonna say the same thing but there's

gonna be a pattern one is gonna say

maybe you talked to let's say you talked

to patients about a certain disease and

one of them tells you a I actually

forgot to take my medication for the

last two weeks the second one will tell

you I actually you know I have kids and

that's why I never it's just too many

things happening in my life and the

third one will tell you yeah I also have

another two diseases and this is really

actually not that dangerous to me

what do you good so you get three

different examples but the big learning

here is this disease is not that

important to the customers or patients

in a way that they are not really paying

attention to it because it's it's it's

not that yeah it's lower on their

priorities almost yeah yeah got it got

it I mean it's it's like I mean it's

horrible that one business is less

horrible than the other one but oh yeah

to be completely honest like a lot of

people are a little bit over right or

hate exercising or still smoke even

though it's not good for you because

they are what they are not coming in the

morning or something like that this is

how we are as animals Homo sapiens yeah

and one thing is you know as a

intrapreneur you usually have very

product focused thinking and you see

that product in the phone in the focus

of people's life and when you talk yeah

like also in you know when we are doing

marketing and just like in general

communication I mean maybe not

everybody's thinking about these 20

hours a day such as you you really have

to say it in a nice manner for people

who have not been studying this field

for five years this is how you're

getting new customers okay by saying

something simple yeah super important

point here yeah on other notes do you

think that like an average person could

learn to analyze those findings or that

this is something that requires like

ages of training no it doesn't require

ages of training it's more buer it's a

security

have to develop it you have to go

through it two or three times the first

time they're gonna be mistakes and there

are awesome courses also online for my

idea made by ideal where you can learn

how to do that through with having

mentors because it requires some yeah

guidance but as I mentioned before I'm

gonna send you a few articles over

written by research designers at the

ideal basically explain how they do it

but it takes sometimes it's super

important for every marketing and

entrepreneur person to really make this

sound to really be able to talk to you

to customers

totally totally that's why I called you

like I mean I didn't want to proceed

with my persona which I don't do you

know that you don't like but anyways

totally had the feeling that I had to

call you and I think I was right so far

yeah maybe just a quick point on the

personas actually we almost never

developed personas that idea

I mean the way we the way you would

usually develop a persona is sit down

and write a my typical average user is

37 with that much money

lalala but if I talk to ten of them I

don't need to do that because I can just

say hey Shane has this problem or you

know you know who you're talking about

and the whole team knows because you've

shared that learnings and this is one

thing we always also did this share the

insights with the whole team and then

you had this knowledge company-wide

catch'em and makes like fantastic sense

but I would still use them for like

sampling at the very beginning you know

just to frame your life my mind a little

bit

it helps me maybe you're not using this

but like right I've been getting some

how to say edit value' from that sure no

I think it makes sense especially in the

beginning you it's a good starting point

to see to have to have an assumption to

have a starting point it's still better

than no persona but I would say talking

to people on knowing who your customers

are is superior to that

this is a difference between your

succeeding and you like testing

something that's just like was invented

up here in your head and just going like

a hamster and be real cool the very last

question free last question so you got

learnings how do you use the learnings

what are they useful for so the

learnings one of the let's call them

design principles of learnings is that

they need to be actionable if something

is not actionable it means it doesn't

direct you in a certain direction it

doesn't tell you what you need to change

with your product or with your campaign

then it's not a learning so basically

what we're looking for are certain

things we learned and then we basically

create prototypes and we test those

prototypes like you know what yeah so

for for my book which I'm not writing by

the way path so for the book you know

the way you test book is you don't need

to write a whole thing if I really want

to just do the prototype you can just do

the content the basically the table of

contents and I can set it over to ten of

and here's where you can use the ten

interviewees because now with the

prototype I can go back to them and ask

them hey is this actually pretty close

to what you had in mind and they can

give me feedback and with this table of

contents which is much cheaper mind

you're much much cheaper to develop then

write a whole book I can get a quick

feedback if this is something people

want to read about or not or I can just

write one one chapter and again see and

get this feedback or maybe even try to

sell it before it's made exactly yeah

exactly

that's even better so we would basically

what we're trying to do is prototypes

and with these prototypes now we are

there are two ways to think about

prototypes one is you can create a whole

product with the prototype but I would

not suggest you I mean if you're in the

early stage of the project don't do it

but actually with prototypes you can

test your assumptions this means I don't

need a fan testing my product and

testing the whole product and there are

many different assumptions in that

product but

can dissect the product into different

assumptions because one assumption could

be how much people willing to pay for it

how long are people willing to stick

with it etc and I can test those things

independently so you can create those

small prototypes the the really nice

example I like to give is if you have an

app idea what a lot of people did in the

beginning and still do is the first

thing they do is they actually build the

app in this yeah but the reason why it's

terrible is from the experimentation

perspective what you actually have done

is you have test that if you can build

the app you basically test it if you're

if you're able to build the app you

haven't tested if anyone is willing to

use it and most of the times the day the

idea does not fall because you can do

something but because nobody wants it

and you can test that much cheaper than

building that the the very thing and

then terms of the testing you know you

can do it qualitatively or

quantitatively and I like to use both so

what you can do here is go back to the

interviewees or get new interviews and

ask them give them two different

prototypes again you can use the

extremes

one version second version why do you

like this one or that one

and then basically yeah get some

response and this is called directional

response or the lack of direction of

feedback and then if you do it

quantitatively basically let's say I'm

creating a website where people can

already buy and I show this website to

10,000 customers this is already much

more statistically significant and

that's a great I'm not against hard at

another dog but in a certain stage you

just have to use them so when you're

trying to scale or prove something on a

bigger scale you should maybe just

create a website and test it there and

there you can see if if the data goes

the right direction or not now adding

our disciplines like overlap beautifully

I mean we can totally learn from each

other and the mindset is the same so

don't build it before you prove that

somebody's able and willing to pay for

it so this is like a good add-on to the

methodology that we are learning in

course but for your methodology

Design Thinking and your work where can

our students for those of you who are

interested I believe a lot of people are

interested because this is super cool

how can they learn more about you yeah

so the funny thing is I actually am not

talking that much about design thinking

anymore because there are many people

especially from idea who know this even

better than I do

so I actually even I basically tell you

if you really wanna know more about it

go to I do you calm and you can find

some more really awesome educational

stuff there what I'm currently working

on is actually I'm also that's called

enterpreneur right now which means that

when I left I do I decided to pursue

cause like almost the opposite idea

right so design thinking is idea of

teaching business people how to how to

do design and I'm trying to teach

designers how to do business business

thinking basically and I've done this

for the last ten months and I'm

basically using this whole process that

I explained to to to do it and basically

yeah just just launched the first

product bit with ten students and

basically what so if you want to learn

more about the business thinking stuff

where you can do that is beyond users

comm where I have a podcast where I talk

to famous business designers and just

designers in general about their journey

to become our business minded yeah so

that's that's kind of where I am at now