Iranian activist Nazanin Boniadi on protecting women's rights in Iran | The World

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Transcripts

nazine it's so good to to be here and to

speak to you again um but you haven't

acted now for a couple of years because

you've committed your life to this cause

focusing on Iranian women providing and

creating some kind of platform outside

of the country in memory of not just

Masini but so many others who have lost

their lives in the last couple of years

yes it's good to be with you yala um yes

I as of September 2022 um I came off of

promoting a project that I was doing and

then sort of time Stood Still for me and

I just thought this is a moment where I

need to commit myself um we may never

have another chance to to sort of throw

our full weight and voice behind a cause

that could change not only Iran for the

better but the region and the world do

you get frustrated because this was once

one of the most talked about issues for

weeks on end news headlines coverage

world leaders and now like all things

it's I guess the new cycle as well as

people's attention moves

on yes I think for any activist it's

frustrating um because that there's that

moment where you're relevant and your

cause is relevant and your voice matters

and and then all of a

sudden the the people who are risking

everything and are continuing to risk

everything don't get the attention they

deserve and that's hugely frustrating um

I understand that there are so many

causes across the world that need our

attention but I think this cause in

particular for 45 years has been in the

spotlight and then it's been sidelined

and gone into the Shadows um and I think

unless we really focus and pay attention

have a long-term strategy in place to

empower the people of Iran to

self-determine towards self

determination this cycle this Perpetual

cycle of extreme oppression and

crackdowns on the people um and then you

know Uprising and then continuous um

Uprising and Crackdown will continue and

to no end and and that is what needs to

change I think what also made this

demonstration this period so

extraordinary was that it was driven by

very young mostly young teenage girls

who were protesting in their classrooms

who were out in the streets putting

their lives at risk a different

generation they were sort of viewed as

the almost the Tik Tok generation who

were taking on the clerics the mullers

and then it drove women across the board

in Iran and men to come out onto the

streets and ask for change for something

more for themselves after more than four

four decades yeah and and many people

have asked me what was it about Massa

amini the 22-year-old Kurdish shanian

woman who was arrested and killed in

custody for and now we know she was

killed by the state because the fact

finding Mission at the UN um said said

as much they they discovered as much and

reported as much and what was it about

her that galvanized an entire nation and

resonated reverberated across the world

where you saw tens of thousands of

people on the streets in Europe in

Canada in America uh everywhere really

standing for the cause for woman life

freedom and it's precisely because of

the juter position of this young woman

who was Kurdish Sunni Iranian a minority

member of religious and ethnic minority

groups young vibrant her whole life

ahead of her with this

gerendasy of sheer male geriatric ruling

Elite men essentially in

Iran and

that just that

contrast that is what this this is about

it's this new

generation who don't want to be ruled by

this jocy this theocracy they want

secular democracy and that's it was

women's rights that galvanized it but

now the people of Iran understand the

intersectionality of women's rights and

every other basic human rights ethnic

minority rights religious minority

rights lgbtq rights the list goes on and

on and and that's really what galvanized

the nation galvanized nation and as you

say reverberated across the globe I

remember speaking to you on a panel with

Afghan women Ukrainian women there was

you and there was this idea that women's

bodies and the freedom of women

continues to be politicized continues to

be used for for for different reasons

and causes and there was this moment as

you say with Masini which really

captured the imagination of people in

Iran and and externally yeah um and and

people I think initially thought that it

was about hair about covering and and

the right to to sh people cutting their

hair yeah and and it was and that was

the outward symbol of it the the

mandatory hijab I think the compulsory

hijab was is is just the outward symbol

of the overall oppression that women and

girls face in Iran of course they're

they're seen as half valued as half the

value of men before before the law and

um there's so many rights that they're

deprived of um the legal of age of

marriage was reduced from 18 before 79

to to initially nine for women for girls

um After the Revolution it was rated

later raised to 13 but girls as young as

nine can still be married with a

permission of their father or a judge

and you see just how it's in TRS an

entrenched system um that that opposes

women that oppresses and segregates

women and girls and that's the

difference between women's rights being

violated and what we call gender

apartheid and we want this to be

recognized under international law

because the women of Iran and

Afghanistan are oppressed and

segregated by entrenched systems of

power that favor men and that's the

difference here of course that women's

rights are violated and we have so so

many um things we need to work on in in

the West and and countries around the

world but these are not systemic issues

um and and they are in countries like

Afghanistan and

Iran as you say there are a number of

issues that we need to cover including

that un fact-f finding mission on masam

min's death being now described as as

unlawful but I want to talk a little bit

more about gender

aparte are you making any Headway

because you've committed now your your

life to to this cause you travel around

the world you Lobby you talk to

different governments and different

groups about recognizing this as a

concept that takes place in certain

parts of the world are they listening I

mean I I first want to acknowledge the

incredible work being done by the the

Strategic litigation Center at the

Atlantic Council headed up by gunia

who's a human rights Iranian American

human rights lawyer but what she's

managed to do is is gather um prominent

Iranian and Afghan women under one

umbrella to demand that gender apartheid

the term gender apartheid is recognized

under international law we have a unique

and time-bound opportunity to have it

included in the the uh crimes against

humanity treaty that's currently being

drafted if that happens what it does is

it allows us to hold states to account

States like Afghanistan under the

Taliban and the Islamic Republic of Iran

and ensure the perpetrators of of

violence against women oppression and

segregation of women systemic oppression

and segregation of women are held to

account right now there is no

accountability me mechanism for

perpetrators of these these crimes

against women and um and I think that

really needs to change the oppression

segregation and gender apart is

essentially a pillar of of Afghanistan

and the Islamic rep Republic if that

pillar crumbles then secular secular

democracy prevailing is far more likely

there are those who say these sanctions

aren't working they've been Iran for

example has been isolated for decades uh

it's seen as a you know a Hermit sort of

regime do you think that's the right way

to approach

this well I mean we've now had a 45e

case study on the Islamic Republic and

there have been moments in time where

the world has in fact entered dialogue

with the regime and um and and frankly

tried to appease them none of it has

worked and now you see the people of

Iran bravely go onto the streets in the

past year and a half and say you know

our enemy is right here you lie that

it's America despite the heavy sanctions

despite the isolation that that has

existed um in in recent history the

people of Iran don't want this regime um

they want a secular democracy they've

made their voices uh very clear and so

we have to find a healthy balance of how

to hold them to account as we did with

the former Soviet Union um for their

human rights

abuses um while you know fulfilling our

own foreign policy objectives but human

rights has to be centered in our foreign

policy do you feel supported still by

the International Community with this

cause supported yes it's gone sort of

it's been sidelined somewhat because of

uh other of course uh relevant world

events uh and and atrocities and and and

wars and and while that's understandable

I think it's key to understand that if

the people of Iran

succeed in attaining a secular democracy

and that

self-determination if we Empower them

just as we did with the people of South

Africa against

apartheid that has hurt political Game

Changer that should be a priority for

every freedom loving country in this

world and it currently isn't because

imagine the ramifications for the region

uh a free secular Iran which is exactly

what the people are striving for

stabilizes the

region and doesn't pose a threat to to

countries across the world um and so

really I think we've gotten it wrong for

so many years for 45 years years uh

we've gone between uh sort of extreme

isolation and and appeasement and we

haven't found that long-term strategic

foreign policy where we find ways to

empower the people of Iran circumvent uh

internet crackdowns um allowing them to

to uh organize to communicate with the

outside world when these uprisings

happen um allowing them the power of

using their voices providing them with

safe havens still to this day the people

who need Refuge are not getting Refuge

um in in Europe in America uh instead

we're still providing platforms and safe

havens actually

opportunities to regime cronies in our

universities in our institutions

allowing them Platforms in our

media those are the wrong voices to be

amplifying we need to be amplifying the

voice of the people of Iran

there are those who say the only way to

bring about regime change in this

instance is for there to be cracks from

within are we seeing

that you know you're absolutely right

yela there's pressure from Below on the

streets which have been happening uh

there's economic hardship which is

happening and fissures at the

top there have been some and it's

undeniable that we need more we need it

to be uh you know far far greater than

what we've been seeing uh it's not that

there hasn't been dissent from from the

ruling Elite there has been somewhat but

the fissures haven't been widespread

enough of course what happens because of

the the way the system works is anyone

who descents is immediately imprisoned

and uh isn't all allowed to run um for

office um

and really I think what needs to change

is for those fissures to take place we

need that intern AAL support for the

cause of the people um to the degree

that the people in the ruling Elite

understand that the time has passed you

know for them to be supported as long as

we're extending an olive branch to the

regime as long as we're unfreezing

assets and we're um negotiating for for

sort of a you know hostage diplomacy and

releasing having them release hostages

in exchange for money and for actual

prisoners convicted under you know uh

due process in our Western

countries then it it incentivizes them

to continue um under this current

oppressive system no one will

defect if we want them to defect we have

to un unequivocally have our policies

support the people and not the ruling

Elite we are seeing this un Mission now

describing Mar amen's death as unlawful

but does it actually change anything on

the ground that's a great question yela

I was actually in Geneva for the 55th

session of the UN Human Rights Council

yesterday uh where the special RoR gave

his report um at the interactive

dialogue that happened and also the fact

finding Mission which was established on

on Iran that was established last year

um in an unprecedented vote it was we

were we so happy that that was

established last year but of course it

took them six months just to staff this

mission and to um get organized and to

to even have this uh go get underway and

so yes we have a positive outcome with

the the report which has shown that the

the state the Islamic Republic is

responsible for masses killing um and

the brutalities that ensued in the

crackdowns of women life Freedom

protest but what's happened since then

because the the date of the report was

until the end of last year December

2023 and since then we've had not only

continued crackdowns but the crackdowns

have

intensified um protesters are now being

executed at a faster rate and we're not

really hearing about it we're not

hearing about it and that's and the

reason for that is because it's been

sort of uh it's in the shadows now and

of course the the world's eyes are now

on on uh Regional turmoil and War and

conflict and of course the Islamic

Republic wants that to be the case they

are taking advantage of this moment to

to Really double down on their

crackdowns um and the oppression of the

people um there's a hijab and Chastity

bill that's being um could be

implemented at any time um and really

what they're waiting for is to see if

the Mandate of the the um fact finding

Miss Mission will be renewed

because the crackdowns as I said are not

only ongoing they've intensified things

have gotten worse we're not hearing

about it so if if the fact finding

Mission isn't extended to really collect

and preserve the the atrocities and the

information um for future criminal

proceedings and accountability

mechanisms they will continue that's

what they're waiting for there's a

report that just came out by Amnesty

International that shows that there's

draconian um crackdowns on women that

are currently happening women of course

in the tens of thousands hundreds of

thousands are still taking to the

streets of Iran defying the compulsory

hijab even though they're facing lashes

as in the case of Roy heshmati who

recently this year received 74 lashes

for posting a media a social media photo

of her without the compulsory hijab in

public um 23-year-old protester Muhammad

kadu despite his diagnosis of bipolar

nooses was executed in relation to these

protests um the crackdowns of draconian

against women women are being the cars

are being impounded and confiscated um

their their bank accounts are being

frozen they are being denied jobs

they're being expelled from school for

defying the compulsory

hijab it's ongoing if the fact finding

Mission if the UN member states do

not re extend the mandate of the fact

finding Mission if they don't renew the

the Mandate of the special rapor on the

situation of human rights in Iran the

Islamic Republic will be empowered to

continue so I met with yesterday in

Geneva I met with uh delegations from

various regions including um uh Asia uh

South America Africa and also um Germany

the the a commission on human rights for

Germany and um to to urge them to to

please um extend the Mandate of the

human rights backf finding mission on

Iran and also uh the the Mandate of the

special rapor and just finally I guess

you know if there was ever to have a

sense of Hope in this dark moment I was

comforted by the fact that Afghan and

Iranian women were standing almost in

solidarity with each other because

Iranian women understood all too well

what Afghan women were going through

when the Taliban swept to power and took

away all their rights yeah y I was

horrified when that happened for so many

of us it's re-traumatizing because we

saw the number of lives lost and the

oppression that that our families faced

and many of us faced in Exile um who are

now in Exile um but that is ongoing in

Iran we saw that we saw sort of we had a

glimpse of what the future of the people

of Afghanistan would look like under the

Taliban

and if the world doesn't pay attention

to the plight of the Afghan people to

the plight of the Iranian

people it's a real not only a a moral

imperative to do so it's not only a

Travy travesty of Justice if we don't

but it will have Ripple effects across

the world um

and as Martin Luther King said an

injustice anywhere is really a threat to

Justice everywhere and we have to heed

his advice nothing and thank you so much

for your time thank you

y