Mindset For Overcoming Adversity With Crisis Negotiator Kirk Kinnell

Summary

In this insightful conversation, professional negotiator Lousin Mehrabi interviews Kirk Kinnell, an expert in crisis negotiations with over 30 years of experience. They delve into the intricacies of negotiation, from hostage situations to corporate deals, emphasizing the importance of emotional and mental toughness. Kinnell shares his personal journey through adversity, including dealing with the loss of children and allegations of corruption, highlighting how negotiation skills can be applied to overcome life's challenges. The discussion underscores the value of understanding, empathy, and authenticity in building sustainable relationships and achieving fair outcomes in all forms of negotiation.

Takeaways

• 🌟 Kirk Kinnell, a former Head of Hostage Negotiation and Armed Policing in Scotland, shares his 30-year experience in crisis negotiations.
• 🤝 Kirk and Lousin Mehrabi collaborate as negotiation trainers for ADN Group, an international negotiation agency based in Paris.
• 💡 The importance of emotional and mental toughness in difficult negotiations is highlighted, as well as applying these skills to everyday life.
• 🎧 Listening skills are crucial for effective negotiation, with Kirk emphasizing the need to listen in '5D' - what's being said, how, what's not being said, and understanding the underlying thoughts and beliefs.
• 🔍 Kirk explains the seven layers of listening: facts, emotions, values, beliefs, motivators, currency, and worth, with values having four components: function, social, psychological, and cost.
• 🌐 The concept of 'leverage' in negotiation is discussed, where understanding the other party's perspective and needs can shift the balance of power.
• 💪 Kirk's personal experiences with adversity, including the loss of four children and allegations of corruption, demonstrate the application of negotiation skills in life's challenges.
• 📈 The conversation underscores the power of shared objectives in negotiations, leading to fair and mutually beneficial outcomes.
• 🌍 Kirk's company, Negotiated Resolutions, offers advisory and negotiation training worldwide, focusing on providing practical solutions for various challenges.
• 🤗 The value of authenticity and fairness in negotiations is emphasized, with the goal of establishing sustainable relationships rather than temporary victories.
• 📚 The episode encourages listeners to view negotiation skills as universally applicable, from corporate deals to personal life and even in facing life's adversities.

Q & A

What is the main theme of the Life Negotiations show?

The main theme of the Life Negotiations show is to share information on various types of negotiations such as hostage negotiation, suicide negotiations, corporate negotiations, and negotiations with children, featuring professional negotiators as guests.

Who is Kirk Kinnell and what is his background?

Kirk Kinnell is a former Head of Hostage Negotiation and Armed Policing in Scotland with over 30 years of experience in crisis negotiations. He has been involved in more than 200 crisis negotiations worldwide and is currently a negotiation trainer for ADN Group and the founder of Negotiated Resolutions.

What are some of the key skills that Kirk Kinnell learned from his experience in hostage negotiations?

Kirk Kinnell learned skills such as active listening, understanding emotions, values, beliefs, motivators, and the concept of 'currency' in negotiations. He emphasizes the importance of connecting with people and understanding their perspectives to influence and negotiate effectively.

How does Kirk Kinnell apply his negotiation skills in the corporate world?

Kirk Kinnell applies his negotiation skills in the corporate world by teaching listening skills, understanding motivators, and finding common shared objectives. He believes in focusing on fairness and sustainability in negotiations rather than a win-lose approach.

What is the significance of understanding the 'currency' in negotiations?

Understanding 'currency' in negotiations refers to recognizing what drives and motivates the other party. It includes knowing their values, beliefs, and what they perceive as valuable, which can be used as leverage to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.

How does Kirk Kinnell approach situations where the other party appears to have more power in the negotiation?

Kirk Kinnell approaches such situations by focusing on building rapport, stabilizing the situation, and making the other party feel heard and understood. He believes in shifting the balance of power to a shared middle ground where both parties can work towards a fair solution.

What are the seven layers of listening that Kirk Kinnell mentions?

The seven layers of listening mentioned by Kirk Kinnell are facts, emotions, values, beliefs, motivators, currency, and worth. These layers help in understanding the whole picture of what the other party is communicating.

How does Kirk Kinnell define 'worth' in the context of negotiations?

In the context of negotiations, 'worth' is defined by Kirk Kinnell as having four components: cost, function, social aspects, and psychological aspects. It's about deriving more benefit than perceived spend, considering not just the monetary value but also the usefulness, social perception, and emotional impact of an agreement.

What is the role of empathy in negotiations according to Kirk Kinnell?

According to Kirk Kinnell, empathy plays a crucial role in negotiations as it allows one to connect with the other party on a deeper level. By understanding and reflecting on the other party's emotions, values, and beliefs, a negotiator can establish a strong rapport and influence the outcome of the negotiation positively.

How does Kirk Kinnell view the concept of conflict in negotiations?

Kirk Kinnell views conflict as an opportunity rather than a negative aspect of negotiations. He believes that conflict is where hidden value lies and that negotiators are trained to look for this hidden value, which can lead to a balanced and fair dispute resolution.

What are some personal adversities that Kirk Kinnell has faced and how did he use his negotiation skills to overcome them?

Kirk Kinnell has faced personal adversities such as being falsely accused of corruption, which led to reputational damage, and the tragic loss of four children. He used his negotiation skills to build resilience by focusing on accepting things he couldn't control, controlling what he could, and finding meaning in the events to define how he moved forward.

Outlines

00:00

🎤 Introduction to Life Negotiations and Kirk Kinnell

The video begins with Lousin Mehrabi, a professional negotiator, welcoming viewers to the show 'Life Negotiations.' She introduces today's guest, Kirk Kinnell, a colleague and friend with over 30 years of experience in crisis negotiations. Kirk's background includes being the former Head of Hostage Negotiation and Armed Policing in Scotland, and his involvement in more than 200 crisis negotiations worldwide. Lousin expresses excitement about discussing Kirk's expertise in various negotiation scenarios and his personal journey through adversity, emphasizing the importance of emotional and mental toughness in difficult negotiations.

05:01

🗣️ The Art of Listening in Negotiation

Kirk and Lousin delve into the importance of listening in negotiation, discussing the foundational work of Carl Rogers and the concept of listening in 5D. They explore the layers of listening, which include understanding the facts, emotions, values, beliefs, motivators, and the underlying messages in communication. Kirk shares his experience of refining listening skills from his time at the FBI and emphasizes the significance of these skills in hostage and corporate negotiations, as well as in everyday life.

10:01

💡 Understanding Motivation and Value in Negotiation

The conversation continues with Kirk explaining the deeper aspects of understanding motivation and value during negotiations. He discusses how personal motivations, such as a desire for security, influence his approach to negotiation. Kirk also elaborates on the multifaceted nature of value, including cost, function, and social and psychological aspects. He stresses the importance of recognizing these components to truly understand and connect with individuals during negotiations.

15:05

🔄 Balancing Power in Negotiations

Lousin and Kirk address the challenge of negotiating with a party that appears to have more power. Kirk shares his experiences as a hostage negotiator, where he had to shift the balance of power to achieve successful outcomes. He emphasizes the importance of making the other party feel heard and understood as a crucial step in influencing and negotiating. Kirk also discusses the application of knowledge and the power it confers when used authentically and positively.

20:07

🛡️ Facing Adversity: Personal Stories and Resilience

Both Lousin and Kirk share personal stories of facing adversity. Lousin talks about her ongoing battle with her son's rare disease, while Kirk recounts his experience with reputational damage due to false allegations and the personal loss of multiple children. They discuss how their negotiation skills have helped them navigate these challenges, highlighting the importance of resilience, faith, and focusing on可控 factors in life. Both emphasize the power of sharing personal suffering to inspire and help others.

25:09

🤝 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

In the concluding part of the conversation, Kirk and Lousin reflect on the importance of negotiation skills not only in professional settings but also in personal life, especially when dealing with adversity. Kirk provides information on how to reach out to him and ADN Group for further guidance and training in negotiation. Lousin expresses her appreciation for Kirk's insights and experiences shared during the discussion, and both look forward to future collaborations and masterclasses.

Keywords

💡Negotiation

Negotiation is a process where two or more parties discuss and compromise to reach an agreement. In the context of the video, negotiation is not only limited to professional settings but also extends to everyday life scenarios such as dealing with children or facing personal adversities. The video emphasizes the importance of emotional and mental toughness in negotiations, highlighting that these skills are transferable to various aspects of life.

💡Emotional and Mental Toughness

Emotional and mental toughness refers to the ability to withstand stress, adversity, and pressure while maintaining a positive and focused mindset. In the video, the guests emphasize the need for this toughness in difficult negotiations and how it can be applied to everyday life challenges. It is portrayed as a critical skill that helps individuals face and overcome hardships.

💡Crisis Negotiations

Crisis negotiations are high-stakes conversations that occur during critical situations, often involving a threat to life or significant property. The video features Kirk Kinnell, who has extensive experience in crisis negotiations, particularly as the former Head of Hostage Negotiation and Armed Policing in Scotland. His expertise showcases the application of negotiation skills in extreme conditions.

💡Active Listening

Active listening is a communication skill that involves fully concentrating, understanding, and responding to a speaker to ensure that the message is correctly understood. In the video, active listening is emphasized as a key component of successful negotiations, where understanding the emotions, values, and motivations of the other party is crucial.

💡Leverage

Leverage in negotiation refers to the power or advantage that a party has over another, which can be used to influence the outcome of the negotiation. In the video, the concept of finding leverage is discussed as a critical strategy to adjust the perspective of the other party, especially when they are initially unwilling to compromise.

💡Resilience

Resilience is the capacity to recover quickly from difficulties or adapt to challenging situations. In the video, both hosts discuss their personal experiences with adversity and how they used their negotiation skills to build resilience, maintain optimism, and continue to face life's challenges.

💡Authenticity

Authenticity refers to being genuine, true to oneself, and honest in one's actions and communications. In the context of the video, authenticity is highlighted as a crucial element in negotiations, as it helps build trust and rapport with the other party, leading to more effective and sustainable outcomes.

💡ADN Group

ADN Group is an international negotiation agency based in Paris that focuses on providing training and advisory services in the field of negotiation. In the video, both hosts mention their collaboration with ADN Group, indicating their association and the shared philosophy of integrity and fairness in negotiations.

💡Negotiated Resolutions

Negotiated Resolutions is the company founded by Kirk Kinnell, which offers advisory and negotiation training services worldwide. The company aims to transfer the skills learned in high-stakes negotiation environments to the corporate world and other professional settings.

💡Shared Objectives

Shared objectives refer to common goals or interests that all parties in a negotiation agree upon, which can serve as a foundation for reaching a mutually beneficial agreement. The video underscores the importance of focusing on these shared objectives to make both parties reasonable and to facilitate a successful negotiation.

Highlights

Lousin Mehrabi introduces the podcast 'Life Negotiations' and her guest, Kirk Kinnell, a renowned crisis negotiator.

Kirk Kinnell has over 30 years of experience in crisis negotiations and was the former Head of Hostage Negotiation and Armed Policing in Scotland.

Kirk and Lousin are currently collaborating as negotiation trainers for ADN Group, an international negotiation agency based in Paris.

Kirk shares his journey from law enforcement to corporate negotiation training, emphasizing the transferability of negotiation skills.

Kirk discusses the importance of emotional and mental toughness in difficult negotiations and applying these skills to everyday life.

The concept of 5D listening is introduced, which includes understanding what is being said, how it's being said, what is not being said, and what is being said between the lines.

Kirk explains the seven layers of listening, which include facts, emotions, values, beliefs, motivators, currency, and worth.

Values and beliefs are intrinsic to one's self-evaluation and are connected to one's motivations and sense of self.

Kirk emphasizes the importance of authenticity and connection in negotiations, stating that understanding the other party's perspective is key to influence and sell ideas.

In situations of power imbalance, Kirk advises to stabilize the situation, enhance understanding, and find leverage to adjust the other party's perspective.

Kirk shares a personal story of facing adversity, including the loss of four children, and how he developed resilience through these experiences.

Lousin shares her own struggle with her son's rare disease and how she applies negotiation skills to maintain optimism and resilience.

Kirk and Lousin discuss the power of sharing personal stories and struggles to inspire and help others facing similar challenges.

Kirk's company, Negotiated Resolutions, offers advisory and negotiation training worldwide, focusing on providing fair and sustainable solutions.

Lousin emphasizes the universal applicability of negotiation skills, even in negotiating with children to get them to eat their dinner.

Kirk and Lousin's collaboration with ADN Group reflects a shared philosophy of integrity, fairness, and focusing on common shared objectives in negotiations.

The podcast highlights the importance of perception in negotiations and the ability to shift the balance of power through understanding and empathy.

Transcripts

Hello, everybody

and welcome to Life Negotiations.

My name is Lousin Mehrabi.

I am a professional negotiator.

And in this show,

I bring you professional negotiators,

that I work with,

or that I know

so that together we share information on

hostage negotiation,

suicide negotiations,

corporate negotiations,

negotiations with children.

We talk about

everything negotiation.

And today's guest is a very special one

because he is one of my colleagues.

We work together

and we provide masterclasses together.

His name is Kirk Kinnell.

Kirk has a fascinating background

for over 30 years,

he has been involved in

crisis negotiations.

He is the former Head of

Hostage Negotiation

and Armed Policing in Scotland.

You will hear his wonderful accent.

And he has saved many lives,

been involved in more than 200

crisis negotiations

all around the world.

We are currently collaborating

as negotiation trainers for ADN Group,

the International Negotiation Agency based in Paris.

And

we have worked together, we have provided trainings together,

he's a wonderful person.

And I know that he has also gone through

a lot of adversity in his life outside

of the negotiation table.

And

he has shared that with me, and I absolutely wanted to share

that with you.

Because

knowing how to deal with that difficulty in life

is one of the things that I'm really passionate about.

And knowing how to build those,

that emotional and mental toughness that we need,

in difficult negotiations.

How can you export that

into everyday life,

and face adversity?

He is an expert at this,

besides being one of the best

negotiators

in the world.

He is the founder of Negotiated Resolutions

gives advisory

and negotiation training

all around the world.

People go to him when things get tough.

Okay, so I'm very proud

and honored to have him

as one of my colleagues,

as a friend.

And without further ado,

here is Kirk Kinnell.

So hi, Kirk,

thank you so much for being here.

I'm so excited

to have this conversation with you.

Obviously, we've already worked together so I already know you.

But some listeners might not know you yet.

So could you please start with

explaining to us a little bit about what you do,

what you've been doing,

your fascinating background,

and what you do today.

Yeah. Hi, Lousin.

Thank you

and really nice to see you again and thanks for a warm welcome

Yeah, so just

to introduce myself and my role and

how I've worked with you in the past.

So

previously,

I was the Head of Armed Policing

and

Hostage Negotiation

in Scotland

and

I spent 20 years as a hostage negotiator there

and I worked along with the UK team

and the international team.

And it's something I was involved

with for a long time.

In the last couple of years,

I worked with US law enforcement

to advise them on

de-escalation of conflict

in relation to some of the protests

that were going on across

America at the time.

And when I retired after

30 years of service in law enforcement

of course, I set up my own business

and decided to transfer the skills

that I had learned in the hostage negotiation worlds

and to the corporate world and of course,

and

met you through the wonderful introduction of Marwan and the people at ADN Group.

And then did some training with you, teaching people in the corporate world

where we shared our negotiation experience.

And, you know, you shared some of

the depth of experience you have

in terms of negotiation in the corporate world.

And that helps me transition to understand that a bit better.

But basically,

we share the same skillset, just coming at it from a different angle.

So yeah, thank you.

And, it's great to be part of the session this morning.

Yeah, and doing those trainings together was really fascinating.

And

I learned a lot from you, actually

because we saw that all those skills that you have

in the hostage negotiation world and crisis negotiation

is so easily transferable to the corporate world

because we see that

whatever it is, whenever we are negotiating with an adversary,

we come to a few things that are similar.

And I would love to talk about that today.

We're going to add as much value as we can to a large audience

not only in police

forcing or corporate but anybody who negotiates anything,

which in the end is obviously everybody, right?

Yeah, listen.

Absolutely. And I think one of the things that when you mentioned

that the one of the things that connects with people

when we do this teaching,

and you reflect on this also is that

all of the skills that we teach,

sometimes they are the most applicable

when negotiating with your children to get them to eat their dinner.

So the skills can be used in any environment absolutely.

Exactly. Once you know how to negotiate with your children,

you can negotiate with anybody.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

I remember when we were doing this training together

that we were teaching listening skills,

obviously, listening skills are key and essential to be a good negatiator

and reach good agreements.

And of course, there is the basic work done by Carl Rogers,

who has done some amazing work and will teach us about mirroring

and how to make somebody understood that

we really listened to them and understood what they were saying.

But then,

I mean, I take it further by saying, we have to listen in 5D.

What is being said? How is it being said? What is not being said?

What is being said between the lines?

And you shared something that I found very interesting,

you said something about understanding how someone reflects

and their thoughts and belief systems and values.

Can you please share a bit more about that, please?

Yeah,

so it’s something that's in the world of hostage negotiation,

and I was across at the FBI and learned what they teach,

based on the work of Carl Rogers about some active listening skills.

Yeah.

So I learned that

maybe 10, 15 years ago across at the FBI,

and we developed it from that, so within the world of hostage negotiation,

we had to break it down.

And when I, you know, I left law enforcement,

I spent some time with my good friend, Richard Mullender,

and we followed, developed and evolved all of the listening skills,

which became the focus of

what we are

you know, trying to achieve, but it's real, we understood

that we made was grown over the years.

So that experience was

reflecting on the 99.9% of success

that hostage negotiators have for every type of challenge.

We broke it down to say,

“Well, what is it that makes it so successful?

What are the key ingredients?” So it’s clearly our menu there,

and we evaluated the menu.

And when we came to listening,

we changed the way that we teach listening

so that people could understand not only do we talk about

the general listening skills,

but we teach people what to listen for.

And basically, there are seven layers

of

ingredients, as we call them, the seven layers of listening.

And for me, the first thing we obviously listen for normally as,

as facts most of us are,

we can hear that conversation and pick up most of the facts.

The second layer is one of emotions.

So in our conversation, you would generally hear that,

you know,

I was going for a walk and I met one of my friends

and meeting him or her made me feel really happy

because I've not seen them for a while.

So we're establishing the emotion of joy

or happiness along with the facts of

meeting that friend.

And you know, my experiences that

a percentage of the world here both of those

and

layers without too much training,

and we call that 50% of the world, women,

men tend to be really logical in our dialogue,

because when they, you know,

the expression I gave us that

I'd maybe come home after being out for the afternoon.

And my wife would perhaps ask me,

or you're out with Greg

nd tell me how I was Paul are doing and I would say,

I don't even know how Greg is doing. We didn't ask that question.

We know we're doing.

He may be mentioned that but it was felt as though

so when we become a hostage negotiator,

you'll learn not to filter information out

so your lessons for facts and emotions,

because that helps you connect with other human beings obviously.

Then in terms of the next layers we listen for

values, beliefs,

motivators, currency and worth.

And so we break that down to values and beliefs.

What are values?

Values are things that obviously we would describe

as something which is at the core of you,

you know, something you would see as intrinsic to the way

that you evaluate yourself.

And typically, that would be

loyalty, integrity, perseverance, justice,

all of the things that you would describe yourself as really,

the story that you tell yourself is who you want to be.

And a belief, of course,

is a mental acceptance of that claim to be true.

The belief is something you would believe about yourself

and align with those values.

So you would see, well, I'm an honest, hard-working,

you know, generous person.

That means,

that makes me kind and if that makes me kind,

that makes me a good person, and therefore,

I am a good person.

So you can see that these things are all connected.

And that the story we tell ourselves

kind of fits with those emotions and values and beliefs.

Motivations are encouraging, motivators are really,

what is it that gets you out of bed in the morning?

Where does your drive come from?

And to have a sure professional understanding

of someone like a new array.

People may see, well, you're motivated by being successful,

or you're motivated by earning money.

But if you truly understand me,

you'll understand that I'm not motivated by money at all.

In fact, my motivation for success

is based on desire for security,

having grown up

with relatively

little wealth,

and probable insecurity and uncertainty around about my future,

it became part of me that I was going to ensure

that my children had a level of comfort and wealth.

So my, the reason I get out of bed in the morning is not for money,

and it's not for me,

that's for security for a nice home and a future for my family.

Because that's what I would see as makes up,

you know, an honorable man. And that's part of my

values and belief system. It's all connected.

And then we think about facts,

emotions, values, beliefs, motivators currency,

and what's the next two currency?

What is my currency?

So in terms of my negotiation skills,

my ability to teach people so that they can transfer

those skills not only in the corporate world,

into their personal life,

that's the thing that gives me currency,

my unique selling point, my ability.

What is it that allows me to trade in this world

and be successful,

because if my currency is out of date,

then I become less valid.

So if you understand what makes me talk,

of course, you can then connect with me.

And the last thing about value, which,

you know, we break that down even farther talking about the value equation.

Most people in the corporate world

understand value to just be value for money

to think about

bottom-line cost, that becomes the only perception of value.

But when you examine value, clearly,

even from mathematical equations of the arithmetic equation,

value has got four components.

And value really is about deriving more benefit than you perceive,

that you spend.

So value is about cost.

It's about function.

It's about social and psychological aspects.

So how much is this thing going to cost me?

How useful is this thing for me? Do I need that?

And how does it make me look?

And how does it make me feel?

And sometimes when we ignore the social and psychological aspects of value,

then it's 50% of the equation that we lose out on

because you will rightly recognize

some people feel more passionate about

the way that they feel or the way they are being perceived.

Then perhaps even the cost to them in reputational terms.

So it's really about understanding

what all of these levels.

And when you figure them all out,

once you start to know all of the detail,

you can start to form a picture of what makes a person talk.

And when you understand what makes you talk,

you can of course, start to connect

with that individual,

and have what we would probably call

an engrossed transformational

conversation and engrossed

transformational moment where you just connect with someone,

and you know, that moment where you'll walk away from our conversation and see,

he just gets me. She just gets me.

And that's the moment when

the person that you're talking to or experiencing something with

believes that you understand them, and they feel understood.

So we're going back to that emotional feelings and emotions.

So when people feel understood, they connect with you

and hostage negotiators learn that when you connect with people,

you can influence them and you can sell them.

Hope

you can sell them another version or another option.

And really, that's what we teach in the corporate world is that

there's always more options, you just need to know

how to frame those options in the context of the person in front of you,

and not in a way that you've been trained before.

It's just it's always done that way or it's just business,

when you realize it's personal. And it's more focused.

So in terms of hostage negotiation,

we bring authenticity,

to you know, corporate deals and business transactions.

And that's what creates for me

sustainable relationships,

sustainable growth.

So

I hope that question at least in terms of listening,

Yeah, well, I listened. I love this.

Let me repeat what I understood

so that you can validate which again, is part of everything right?

So you're saying there are seven layers of listening:

facts, emotions, values, beliefs, currency, motivations, and worth.

And then you take it further and say values has four other components

because function, social and psychological aspect.

So if you combine all that,

that allows you to connect with people on a deeper level,

well, they get the feeling like, wow, this person understands me,

this person maybe values me or I can talk to this person.

And that is then the key

in how to negotiate with someone who doesn't want to negotiate.

-Or--- -Absolutely,

absolutely so you know, something that we

preach regularly,

and we challenge,

you know, perceptions to see.

And here's one that we see openly, knowledge is not power --

[crosstalk]

Knowledge is power, knowledge is power. And we say knowledge is not power,

application of knowledge which confers power, it's what you do

with that information. So you may have lots of information,

or with people, but if you don't use that in a positive way

to establish a strong relationship

and recognize that you have to do so with authenticity,

then you'll never influence anyone, you know, you may get,

you may get a short term agreement,

but actually, you'll never have a sustainable

relationship.

-Yeah. -So that when you reflect on that,

and you and you perhaps,

review how you establish relationships with your friends and family,

then you can make them stronger,

by recognizing

ways to make those relationships stronger,

but always be authentic.

I love this. And this is something most people don't

do

do at all, right? If you look at the population,

majority, large majority of people don't know how to really

listen.

And let alone go as far as everything that you just described.

But let's assume you have someone who is a good listener.

So they kind of

know these skills, and can build rapport

and have the empathy and have a lot of skills

that we need as good

negotiators.

But then they're faced with an adversary that has just

an upper hand

that has better cards. So the balance of power

is not in balance.

And obviously, we have that all the time

when clients come to us,

it's because they are in a negotiation where they think,

Okay, this is impossible, we're never going to come to an agreement.

That's why they reach out to us.

So what is then the number one thing?

How do you advise someone who's dealing with another party,

and that party simply has more power in the negotiation?

Can you turn that around? And how?

Yeah, Lousin, thank you, that's a really good question.

And so the answer is, can we turn that around? Absolutely.

That's what I have spent my whole life doing.

So on every single occasion,

as a hostage negotiator,

the other person that had all of the power,

and I had zero,

the person at the edge of the building, or the edge of the branch was

was in complete control of the behavior.

And I had zero control initially.

The person at the bank robbery, the bank robber,

or the guy with a gun in our house,

has all of the power, they have the weapons,

and I have none. They can cause harm.

And initially, I can do nothing to prevent that without,

with no force.

Yeah.

All I have is my persuasive skills. So eventually,

we recognize that we have to move that balance of power,

and we move it from them

into the middle where that power is shared.

And eventually

over to us where we can explain

and have them listen to our perspective.

But we can't do that until they feel heard.

They feel understood.

They have articulated their position,

sometimes over and over again, sometimes with,

you know,

frustration and anger and passion.

But once we recognize where that comes from,

and we understand what's really going on,

and we can articulate that we know what's really going on,

then you can have a connection with people.

And they usually see things reasonably,

in terms of,

you know,

international negotiations, when the balance of power

is usually in the minds of the other team.

That is always about perception. And all we have to really do

is stabilize the other side. So we try not to antagonize.

Of course,

it would be terrible if, through lack of skills or training or empathy,

we made the situation worse.

-Right. -So the number one thing is to stabilize

and enhance rather than make things worse.

And when you listen to people,

you demonstrate that you're there to understand their perspective,

and you're authentic,

and you're there to find a solution which is fair to everyone,

not letting defeat them eventually.

Because having spent 50 years in law enforcement,

I never saw that talking someone off of a bridge

where there life was at stake as a victory.

It's just not a thing.

It's something that is of benefit to everyone.

So when you come with that mindset,

that you're not trying to defeat someone or manipulate someone,

that you're dealing with a genuine,

authentic viewpoint to bring a balanced

fair

dispute debate. So we're not afraid of conflict,

conflict is where there is hidden value.

And negotiators are trained to look for hidden value that sometimes

as just ignored or forgotten about.

And those skills that we build on.

And our level of professionalism that allows us to be precise

and identify things.

And when we talk about things where there is a common shared objective.

And you know,

that's part of Marwan’s philosophy with the ADN group,

is that focusing on the common shared objective,

usually makes both parties reasonable and that would work.

And when you can get both parties to be reasonable,

the solutions never really far away.

Amazing.

So yeah, obviously not fear away from conflict.

That's what we thought from day one.

-Yeah. -And that conflict is an opportunity.

But and yet, we're often faced with that kind of situations

where the other party has more power,

or at least better cards.

So you're saying that these listening skills that you just mentioned,

are then key to build rapport,

to stabilize the situation and enhance it and understand their perspective,

because you're going to make them talk,

because you build this rapport and you make them realize

that we're here to find a solution that is fair for both parties.

And with your authenticity and your presence

and your empathy.

You can then change,

change the cards that are on the table.

Yeah, absolutely. And probably the final ingredient,

once we have gone through that process,

is the search for leverage.

Sometimes you have to find leverage,

to help adjust the perspective of the other person.

if they are adamant

or if they are defensive.

And they won't see something

which is right in front of their very nose

with some things have to use leverage that we have here.

And let me give you of one of the best uses of leverage

being used in a good way.

So

there's a call and relationship person who's contemplating suicide.

And

it's not me, it's another hostage negotiator

who is talking at the scene and as a support team.

And he says to the person who's contemplating death,

you know,

the person says, “I want to kill myself. I have lost my job.

I've lost my house.

I cannot face my family."

You know, it's just my life has come to an end.

I've got so much shame hanging over me right now.

And I just can't face my wife and daughter, I can't look them in the eye.”

And in that conversation,

rather than seeing what I understand how that must feel.

You know, we know that's probably the worst thing you can see.

You know, agree on the negotiator sense,

“Okay, I hear that

you clearly care about

how you're seen by your daughter, and by your wife,

and who is going to hold the hands of your daughter

at your funeral in today's time?

You know, you talk about the way that you have a relationship with your daughter,

and you're teaching your daughter

to have courage,

no matter the events.

Well, that's very example. You can use this example,

as an opportunity to demonstrate to her

the courage that you need with challenges in your life”.

And it was for him

engross transformational moment,

you know, that moment where he just stopped in his tracks

and the realization that once he had been stabilized,

he saw an option where life was better than death,

because it connected with

things that were important to him the story that he taught himself,

which was part of being a good dad, and he was so determined to be a good dad,

that he couldn't face failure,

not when we reframe failure,

and say, okay, but actually, what's also true of us courage,

and that's more important than avoiding failure,

then he bought into that.

So we recognize that we can listen for leverage,

and those conversations,

and people often give away

more leverage than they will perceive.

So it's up to us as negotiators

to listen for this to help close the deal,

but an actual fact to secure

a stronger relationship for a positive outcome.

And that's going back to what we said at the start.

It's about finding something which is fair to everyone.

It's never about win or lose. It's never about that.

Because if I'm negotiating with you, and I want that you'll lose,

you'll never do business with me ever again.

And that's not a good business model.

And that's probably one of the reasons why

you know, we share those same values with Marwan and the ADN group is that,

that's the philosophy they have.

They have a philosophy which has been integrity and fairness.

And so yeah, it's harder sometimes to do it that way

but more satisfying in the long run.

And sustainable. Exactly, because I met Marwan in 2013.

So that goes way back.

And ever since we started collaborating,

obviously, there are a lot of negotiations between us as well, right?

-Yeah -But how we collaborate

and not once has that anything ever been decided

or discussed that was not fair.

And people tell me,

you know, how do you negotiate with negotiators?

I said, well, negotiations with negotiators

are actually the easiest,

the fastest,

the most smooth,

because we both use the same, you know, we know

where we're headed, and there are no games being played.

And we directly go to the shared common objectives,

so then just so smooth.

So yeah, all my negotiations with Marwan had been very smooth.

And he said, that people tend to think the better negotiator you are,

the harder it is to negotiate with you.

And I often have also clients, etc, coming to me and saying,

“Wow, we were prepared to having a much more difficult negotiation with you.

I can't believe it was so easy.”

So yeah.

[crosstalk]

I recently

negotiated two settlements.

One was for a nine-figure sum,

then one was for an eight-figure sum, massive numbers.

Yeah.

And you would think that in the corporate world,

the lawyers, you know, the combat

would be part of that.

But actually, when we talk about and see, I'm not playing poker,

I'm not gonna play poker with you don't play poker with me,

let's just find some common ground,

let's not be deceitful to each other.

Let's, you know, let's behave in a professional way,

then the solution can be achieved much quicker.

And when people will recognize

that you're not trying to pull the wool over their eyes,

you're not trying to defeat them or you know,

betray them,

then

then most people can be reasonable.

And we can come to a conclusion of satisfaction,

whatever that deal happens to be.

And you can both walk away from that feeling good.

And I don't ever want to be in a deal,

where my partner opponent,

other business walks away feeling bad about anything.

Some things will win, some things will lose.

But the most important thing is we always focus on achieving

what is fair for everyone.

-Exactly. -And that doesn't mean it's even,

it just means fair.

Yeah,

but and that shows the importance of the work that we're doing.

And there's that there's still so much work to be done.

But because there is still whether we like it or not,

there is this negative connotation about

negotiation and about negotiators

and people thinking that negotiators are smooth talkers, or,

yeah, we still have a lot of work to do Kirk to set that straight.

And to show that actually we're here, to find agreements,

we are agreement makers,

-and we all -- -Well, hopefully,

this conversation was in will, will go,

and hopefully change the perspective of some people

who don't understand just yet.

Exactly.

So

we learned a lot about listening,

about how do you deal with somebody who has better cards

and appearance to start with.

And

as you know, I'm really passionate about

how can we use negotiation skills

in our everyday life

when we're facing adversity?

So what about the counterpart

is not a hostage-taker,

the counterpart is not a corporate client,

but the counterpart is invisible.

The counterpart you have to negotiate with is called life.

And life throws

something difficult at you.

So you're facing hardship.

How can you use your negotiation skills to face that?

I mean, I've already shared on social media

and you are with you a bit more in detail about what's happening.

Personally,

with my son having a rare disease that is progressive

and literally slowly killing him,

and how to face that and I've been using my negotiation skills

to face that so that I can help him

while staying optimistic and resilient and agile,

without losing that,

that inner flame of joyness and happiness

so that I can be the best mom I can be for him.

And you have shared with me also

some personal experiences that are

very difficult.

would you mind sharing that here with the audience

of how you faced some adversity and how your

negotiation skills help you in that?

Yeah, Lousin. Of course and first of all,

before I do that, Lousin, thank you for sharing

your story which is still ongoing and sad daily battle that you face

and

you have the highest

admiration from me,

and I'm sure many others in terms of the way you

find that balance to battle on and,

and look after and protect your son,

but also you deal with many of the demands of your

business and family life and you juggle all of these things

and keep it going.

So, yeah, you have my complete admiration for that challenge

that you face and face with

most of the time, a wonderful smile.

So in terms of your resilience, I wish you continued resilience.

And yeah, so where does that

match with me?

So in terms of

resilience and stress,

for me, there are a couple of things that

perhaps I'll learn some skills and the hostage negotiation world

that we go through the concept of

stress inoculation training,

basically, we prepare people

for an event

which they will face so that they will

not feel the impact of the stress as much as if they had gone and coped

And so really, resilience is about making sure that you have the resources

to deal with events which happen around you.

Sometimes that feels like they happen to you.

And sometimes they do happen to you.

So how do you build resilience for things

that you can never anticipate?

And that's something that

you're going through just now, and I'm sure you probably

never anticipated that you'd have

to deal with these things. But

you remain focused,

because every day your focus is on the best quality of life

for your boy, and you put your own needs to decide, right?

No, but you get through with

the low level of strength and meanness as as different to that.

And you know, one or two of the things are trivial in nature to that.

And it's that perspective that helps you,

you have that.

So I think probably the best way to have this conversation is to see,

at the end of my,

you know, law enforcement career,

I was involved,

I was suspended as part of an ongoing investigation,

where an individual had alleged corruption all the way to the top

and there was four

senior police officers suspended

for an investigation eventually

cleared. But at the time,

reputational damage, perception of wrongdoing and all of that,

all of the things that probably is the worst possible thing

for a law enforcement officer to be accused of.

So yeah, I felt initially there was a shock and a bit of

bit of trauma,

but an actual fact, when I put that into perspective

of what I had previously faced in my life,

then I realized that was trivial,

because people who know me recognize that my, of course,

my reputation would be, you know,

reinstated in due course,

as it was.

But in terms of that trauma, that I was facing,

you know, I reflected on trauma that I had faced earlier in my life.

And it's a trauma that affected my family.

But, you know, I had a point where

I had four children die between my daughter being born

and my eventual son being born.

Over a period of six, seven years.

And initially, when my son, Darryl, was born, we realized that,

you know,

he was not going to have a sustainable life, he was put on a life support machine.

And myself and my wife

turned off that life support machine the following day, you know,

nothing could have the appearance,

me or my wife or my family for the impact of that events

on none of that previous resilience training would be relevant.

So really, what we have to do is find something else that would stabilizers

and make us focus on the world and think that an event that happens,

the meaning that we attach to that event would define

how we continued for the future.

-Yeah. -Of course, we had to,

we had to grieve the loss of my son.

And then,

you know, we continued on that journey to try and have children,

three more, three more children died.

And eventually,

we kept going, and my son was born and my son at that time,

you know, we weren't aware on the full expectation

that

he would possibly,

you know, have some disability or in some format.

But we went there to see what we like set

which whatever the outcome is,

whatever your God has in store for you, we accept that

because accepting things that you cannot control

is half of that battle.

So you accept the things that you cannot control

as uncontrollable and all you can do is control the things that you can control.

So we focus on

being healthy, you know, trying to see

happy and loving and caring and protecting hopefully,

even my daughter who was very young at that stage from trying to shield her

from some of the things sorts of putting things into perspective.

And, you know,

over a period of time, yeah, it was, it was a tough time.

But an actual fact, when you've been through that experience for me

1,2,3,4 times,

you develop a resilience, and you recognize that

you can become stronger.

So eventually, when you know things happen later in life,

when you compare it to the,

to perhaps a big thing which has happened,

then it peels into significance, and you can remain resilient.

Well, thank you so much for sharing that Kirk. This really is amazing.

And I remember the first time you shared that with me, it's

big and good negotiator is one thing,

but knowing how to be a good person,

is a whole other ballgame, right?

And you going through something like this,

and still having the resilience to get back up and stand back up.

And in this case with your wife tried to have another child still

shows just so much courage and optimism.

Because how many people would have given up, right?

Or saying,

“This is so painful, I'm not gonna go through this again.”

I have to be honest, most of that drive came from my wife

who was more determined than me,

But listen, you eventually recognize that you have to have,

you have to have faith,

you know, when faith is we will never really

be presented with evidence that everything was going to be okay.

So we have to have faith. And as people,

we could connect with us to see that's okay,

that will be sustainable for us,

because that's who we are.

And that's part of our

self-belief,

which when you connect with yourself, when you know who you are,

then that journey becomes easier.

And it's,

you know, listen, it's similar,

but much different comparison to what you're going through.

Just know because you,

you know, you've told me you have a faith

and you have a focus on ensuring that every day

that your your boy is here is that it's the best day that it can be

as you make the best out of every day that you have with I mean, for me,

that's a tougher and longer journey and shows a level of resilience that--

yeah,

we're all different.

But your story is similar, Lousin.

Yeah, and as you said, We don't choose these things, right?

But I love what you said about and I wrote it down, the meaning

that we attach to the event

is going to

define how we deal with it.

Because it's so easy to go into victimhood, right?

Why me? Why my child? Why this event? Why, why, why?

But you're never going to get an answer to that, why?

So might as well give an answer yourself,

with an answer that is as meaningful as possible.

And as

empowering as possible of saying, you know what,

maybe I had to go through this to learn a, b, and c.

And for me, what helped was when I decided to share the story,

a few years ago, I wrote an article, and a few months ago, I wrote a poem,

and I decided I'm just going to put that out there.

And it just went completely viral.

And you know, people I didn't know messaging me

and saying that this really helped them and inspire them

or help them make an important decision.

And that's when you know, if you can share your suffering,

then

you know, I, you know, my background is in finance,

I'm very analytical, I think in Excel.

And I used to have --

and my sister is there laughing about this,

but I used to say, when I buy something,

I calculate how many times I might kind of gonna wear this,

and then it's worth the price.

It's not just a one time thing.

And I applied the same thing with this suffering,

I have to go through the suffering anyway.

So by sharing it, if I can inspire others on the way or if I can,

you know, make somebody see things that they're going through slightly differently,

which helps them then go through it,

then my suffering, it's like divided.

And then it's not that chunk of a pain anymore,

because it has served me, it has served her, it has served him.

So yeah, that's my word way of thinking.

But I think there's a lot of power

in going through something and then using that,

whatever it is that you learn through it to help others

who go through something similar or who can relate with it.

So thank you so much for sharing your story.

I know you don't share it very often.

But I think it's an amazing story and shows so much mental toughness

and mental resilience and emotional capabilities.

And then all that soft skills that we need to be good negotiators

are actually not only useful on the negotiation table, but in everyday life,

everywhere.

Okay, wonderful.

Kirk, I don't know how long we've been talking

or how long we still have. I don't want to take too much of your time.

Thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you so much for sharing all this.

I mean, I love working with you

and I look forward to all the other masterclasses

we're going to provide together.

For the listeners at home,

where can they find more information about you?

or How can they reach out to you?

What is the best way to get in touch with you?

Yeah, so listen. Thank you, Lousin.

It has been a fabulous conversation.

I know that you are almost taken to a difficult place

and difficult conversation so that you’re most welcomed.

I know you are not afraid of those.

So yeah, if anyone wants to follow up and get some training

and advice and guidance or support in terms of negotiation

or even any of the elements we have spoken about

so there are two organizations.

One naturally is ADN Group.

We are both associates of ADN Group.

But my own company is called Negotiated Resolutions

and you can find this at www.negotiatedresolutions.com,

have a look and see what's there and if there is

something you would like to engage then don’t hesitate,

just drop us an email and we’ll back in touch as soon as we can and

help progress and make this conversation about negotiation.

take more value about conflict especially right now as we combat with Covid

We will have to really negotiate in terms

and contracts and you know, we have life.

And if we can give some advice and guidance or everything about that

And we'll more than happy to help.

Absolutely, I will put the link also somewhere around this video up, down

so that people can reach out to you.

I mean, I know you personally and I know you’re absolutely

one of the best negotiators in the world.

And you know what you’re talking about with your 30 plus years

of experience in crisis negotiations

and corporate negotiations and trainings, advices.

It’s absolutely phenomenal to work with you.

Thank you so much, Kirk.

And for the listeners, thank you so much for watching or listening to this episode.

And there will be more fascinating speakers to come,

fascinating negotiators that I’ll be interviewing.

Thank you so much for watching.

See you next time. Thank you. Bye.

Thank you, Lousin. Bye. It was a pleasure.