Russia's scary INFO WAR on West (VLAD REACTS to Ian Garner)

Summary

El video destaca la preocupante guerra informacional que Rusia libra contra Occidente, ignorada por los medios y los gobiernos, que se debate entre la libertad de expresión y la necesidad de proteger la democracia de la desinformación y la polarización. Ian Bremmer, en su artículo en Foreign Policy, insta a tomar medidas audaces y a centrarse en la educación cívica para contrarrestar la influencia rusa y preservar la confianza en nuestras instituciones democráticas.

Takeaways

• 📢 La guerra informacional de Rusia contra el Occidente es un ataque serio que amenaza la democracia.
• 🔍 Los gobiernos occidentales y las plataformas de redes sociales han sido reacios a actuar contra la propaganda rusa por temor a limitar la libertad de expresión y contribuir a la polarización política.
• 🌐 La influencia rusa ha penetrado profundamente en la política y la sociedad occidentales, con agentes rusos en múltiples niveles.
• 📚 La falta de una estrategia coherente en el Occidente frente a la desinformación rusa es un problema crítico.
• 💭 La crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas es un desafío fundamental que subyace a la crisis de desinformación.
• 🤔 La percepción de la desinformación como un error cognitivo puede ser un enfoque simplista que no considera las emociones políticas y la agencia política de los ciudadanos.
• 📈 La desinformación rusa utiliza y amplifica conflictos preexistentes en la sociedad occidental para su propio beneficio.
• 🌍 La respuesta efectiva a la desinformación rusa requiere una cooperación internacional y medidas concretas para proteger el espacio público de la influencia extranjera.
• 📚 La educación cívica es crucial para capacitar a los ciudadanos para navegar y comprender mejor el entorno informativo.
• 🚫 La tolerancia hacia la propaganda rusa en las redes sociales debe cesar, y las plataformas deben ser penalizadas por permitir su diseminación.
• 🛡️ La defensa contra la guerra informacional debe ser considerada como una parte esencial de la defensa nacional.

Q & A

¿Qué es la guerra informacional que Rusia está librando contra Occidente según Ian Gner?

La guerra informacional que Rusia está librando contra Occidente es un esfuerzo continuo de desestabilizar las democracias occidentales mediante la propagación de desinformación y la influencia en los procesos electorales y el debate público, afectando decisiones sobre la ayuda a Ucrania y otros asuntos de política exterior.

¿Cómo se relaciona la guerra informacional con la crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas?

La guerra informacional se ve como una parte integral de la crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas, ya que la desinformación y la influencia extranjera se utilizan para exacerbar la polarización y la desconfianza en los representantes políticos y las instituciones, lo que a su vez profundiza la polarización y la desconfianza en la sociedad.

¿Qué sugiere Ian Gner sobre cómo abordar la guerra informacional de Rusia en Occidente?

Ian Gner sugiere que Occidente debe reenmarcar las campañas de desinformación de Rusia y otras actividades de influencia en el lenguaje de guerra, formar una coalición para coordinar acciones legales y medidas para limitar la influencia rusa en los medios sociales, y promover una educación cívica que enseñe a los ciudadanos a negociar el entorno informativo y contrarrestar los ataques rusos.

¿Qué es el papel de las plataformas de redes sociales en la guerra informacional de Rusia?

Las plataformas de redes sociales han sido utilizadas por Rusia para diseminar propaganda y mensajes a través de bots, trolls, campañas publicitarias dirigidas y cuentas falsas, lo que ha contribuido al éxito de su guerra informacional contra Occidente.

¿Qué medidas específicas propone Ian Gner para contrarrestar la influencia rusa en las redes sociales?

Gner propone que los gobiernos occidentales deben actuar en concierto para pasar leyes y medidas que impidan que Rusia alimente directamente su información a los ciudadanos occidentales a través de las redes sociales, y que las plataformas deberían ser amenazadas con penalidades para permitir la propagación de la propaganda rusa.

¿Qué es la importancia de la educación cívica en la lucha contra la desinformación?

La educación cívica es crucial para enseñar a los ciudadanos a comprender y contrarrestar los ataques de desinformación en sus diferentes formas, dándoles las herramientas para negociar el entorno informativo y mantener una sociedad informada y crítica.

¿Cómo se relaciona la desinformación con la crisis de confianza y la polarización en la sociedad?

La desinformación se ve como un producto de la crisis de confianza y la polarización, ya que la desconfianza en las instituciones y los representantes políticos lleva a la gente a buscar y creer en fuentes de información que confirman sus prejuicios y miedos, a menudo alimentados por actores externos como Rusia.

¿Qué es el riesgo de la pensée algorithmique según el discurso?

La pensée algorithmique es el riesgo de reaccionar a las superficies de las palabras y los signos que vienen con ellas, en lugar de a su significado, lo que conduce a una dinámica binaria y reductora que es destructiva para el pensamiento libre y la democracia.

¿Qué sugiere el discurso sobre cómo abordar la desinformación de manera constructiva?

El discurso sugiere que en lugar de simplemente refutar con otros slogans o desinformación, debemos fomentar un diálogo público que involucre a todos los ciudadanos, manteniendo un espacio para la conversación y el progreso en la imaginación y el pensamiento estratégico.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Introducción a la guerra informacional rusa

El video comienza con una introducción a un episodio largo que abordará la guerra informacional de Rusia contra Occidente, el estado de nuestro entorno informativo y cómo podemos mejorar la situación o evitar empeorarla. Se menciona un artículo de Ian Gner en Foreign Policy y se destaca la importancia de la experticia en una democracia, así como la necesidad de proteger nuestro espacio informativo.

05:00

🌐 Impacto de la interferencia extranjera y la polarización cultural

Se discute el impacto de la interferencia extranjera maligna en nuestro discurso y la polarización cultural que estamos experimentando, donde las personas se ven como enemigos más que como opositores. Se menciona la falta de una estrategia coherente de Occidente para abordar la desinformación y la guerra de información, y cómo las medidas tomadas hasta ahora han sido ineficaces.

10:02

🔍 Análisis de la influencia rusa y la crisis de confianza

Se explora la influencia de los agentes rusos en la política y la sociedad occidentales, y cómo la falta de una estrategia occidental ha permitido que la desinformación se propague. Se aborda la crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas y cómo esta se relaciona con la desinformación y la polarización.

15:02

🛡️ La guerra informacional y la defensa de la democracia

Se describe cómo Rusia está ganando la guerra informacional contra Occidente, utilizando tácticas como bots, trolls y campañas publicitarias dirigidas. Se menciona la entrevista de Vladimir Putin y cómo se ha convertido en una herramienta de propaganda. Se argumenta que la respuesta de Occidente ha sido insuficiente y que se debe tomar medidas más efectivas.

20:03

🌐 La influencia de Rusia en las redes sociales y la polarización

Se analiza cómo Rusia ha utilizado las redes sociales para influir en la opinión pública y exacerbar la polarización. Se menciona la falta de acción por parte de las plataformas y los gobiernos occidentales, y cómo la polarización está siendo utilizada como una herramienta en la guerra de información.

25:03

📖 Sugerencias prácticas para abordar la desinformación

Se presentan algunas sugerencias de Ian Gner para abordar la desinformación, incluyendo la refráming de las campañas de desinformación de Rusia como actos de guerra y la necesidad de una coalición de gobiernos occidentales para pasar leyes que limiten la influencia rusa en los medios sociales.

30:05

📚 Educación cívica y la lucha contra la desinformación

Se aboga por una educación cívica que enseñe a los ciudadanos a navegar el entorno informativo y a entender y contrarrestar los ataques de Rusia. Se sugiere que los programas de educación cívica deberían enfocarse en cómo lidiar con la desinformación en general, más que en la desinformación rusa específica.

35:05

🌐 La guerra de la información y la defensa democrática

Se argumenta que la guerra de la información es una parte integral de la guerra militar de Rusia y que la desinformación está integrada en la estrategia de Moscú para conquistar Ucrania. Se sugiere que Occidente debe actuar de manera más agresiva para defender su democracia y evitar que Moscú gane una guerra híbrida en Occidente.

40:09

🚨 Advertencia final sobre la desinformación y la confianza

Se concluye con una advertencia sobre los peligros de la desinformación y cómo se debe abordar la crisis de confianza en nuestras democracias. Se enfatiza la importancia de no caer en la polarización y de buscar soluciones que promuevan un diálogo público y la libertad de pensamiento.

Keywords

💡información

El término 'información' se refiere al contenido y datos que circulan en la sociedad a través de diferentes canales de comunicación. En el contexto del video, se centra en cómo la información es utilizada como arma en la guerra informacional contra las democracias occidentales por parte de Rusia, y cómo esta información puede ser distorsionada o falsa para sembrar desconfianza y confusión.

💡guerra informacional

La 'guerra informacional' es un tipo de conflicto que se libra en el ámbito de los medios de comunicación y la información, con el objetivo de influir en la opinión pública y la percepción de los hechos, a menudo para dañar a un país o grupo. En el video, se discute cómo Rusia ha estado llevando a cabo una guerra informacional contra los países occidentales, utilizando tácticas como la desinformación y la propaganda para socavar la confianza en las instituciones democráticas.

💡desinformación

La 'desinformación' se refiere a la distribución intencional de información falsa o engañosa con el propósito de confundir o manipular a los receptores. En el video, se aborda cómo la desinformación es un instrumento clave en la guerra informacional que Rusia utiliza para sembrar la desconfianza en las instituciones y en la población de los países occidentales.

💡propaganda

La 'propaganda' es la difusión de ideas, rumores o información con el propósito de influir en las opiniones públicas a favor de un grupo, causa o gobierno. En el contexto del video, la propaganda es una táctica utilizada por Rusia para moldear la opinión pública en su beneficio, a menudo a través de la desinformación y la manipulación de los hechos.

💡confianza

La 'confianza' en el contexto del video se refiere a la confianza que los ciudadanos tienen en sus instituciones democráticas y en la información que reciben. Se argumenta que la guerra informacional de Rusia busca erosionar esta confianza, lo que podría debilitar la democracia occidental.

💡democracia

La 'democracia' es un sistema político en el que el poder se deriva del pueblo, que ejerce su voluntad a través de elecciones y la participación ciudadana. En el video, se discute cómo la guerra informacional de Rusia representa una amenaza a la democracia occidental, al intentar socavar la confianza de los ciudadanos en sus instituciones y en el proceso democrático.

💡Ucrania

Ucrania es el país europeo contra el cual Rusia ha llevado a cabo una invasión militar y una campaña de desinformación. En el video, Ucrania se presenta como un ejemplo de un país que ha estado luchando activamente contra la influencia y la desinformación rusas, y cuyas experiencias podrían ser útiles para otros países occidentales.

💡libertad de expresión

La 'libertad de expresión' es el derecho fundamental de las personas de expresar sus opiniones y creencias sin temor a represalias o censura. En el video, se discute la tensión entre la libertad de expresión y la necesidad de protegerse de la desinformación y la propaganda que podrían socavar la democracia.

💡cultura de la guerra fría

La 'cultura de la guerra fría' se refiere al período histórico en el que predominaron las tensiones y la competencia entre los bloques ideológicos de la Unión Soviética y los Estados Unidos y sus aliados. En el video, se sugiere que la guerra informacional de Rusia contra el Oeste tiene resonancias con las tácticas utilizadas durante la guerra fría.

💡medios de comunicación

Los 'medios de comunicación' son los canales a través de los cuales se transmite la información a una audiencia广大. En el video, se discute cómo los medios de comunicación, especialmente las plataformas de redes sociales, han sido utilizados por Rusia para difundir desinformación y propaganda en su guerra informacional contra Occidente.

💡educación cívica

La 'educación cívica' se refiere al conjunto de conocimientos, habilidades y actitudes que permiten a los ciudadanos participar de manera efectiva y responsable en la vida pública y en el proceso democrático. En el video, se sugiere que la educación cívica es esencial para enseñar a los ciudadanos a navegar el entorno informativo actual y a contrarrestar la influencia de la desinformación y la propaganda.

Highlights

The West is oblivious to Russia's informational war, which is part of a larger cultural war.

Expertise is considered sacred in a democracy as it is a central counter majoritarian institution.

Our informational space is considered sacred as it sustains our discourse and democracy.

The crisis of trust in public institutions is the biggest since the European Revolutions of 1848.

The information crisis is a reflection of a deeper crisis of trust and democratic incapacity.

Russia's information war against the West is showing signs of success.

Western social media companies have not acted effectively against Russian interference.

Russian influence operations have penetrated Western politics and society.

Western governments lack a coherent approach to Russian disinformation.

The crisis of trust is linked to a sense of political agency and truth.

The West needs to reframe Russia's disinformation campaigns in the language of war.

Western policymakers must act in concert to pass laws restricting Russian influence.

Civic education is crucial for understanding and countering Russian attacks.

The West should consider flooding pro-Russian channels with Western messaging.

Algorithmic thought is a danger that threatens free thought and democratic discourse.

Transcripts

hello beautiful Community happy Sunday

today we are doing a longish episode

we'll do a reading of a piece about

Russia's scary informational war against

us the state of our informational

environment and what we might do to make

the situation better and what we might

avoid doing to make the situation worse

and we'll do this by reading a piece by

Ian gner in foreign

policy um titled now authors are not

typically responsible for titles that

pieces get the West is still oblivious

to Russia's informational War Paralyzed

by Free Speech concerns Western

governments are loath to act many of you

will know Ian from his book The Zed

generation and uh we'll put um the name

of the book down below our video and a

link to the foreign policy article as

well but let's ground ourselves first a

little bit as we like to do on this

channel first before the

reading experts are

sacred right you're going to be reading

a piece by an expert and experts are

sacred they're not sacred because

they're right or they're thinking in the

right way about the challenges we face

or because they agree with you or me

they're sacred because expertise often

academic expertise is in of itself a

central counter majoritarian institution

in a democracy you lose it and it's a

bit like losing the courts or losing

another count of majoritarian

Institutions you don't get democracy you

get a society that is untethered from

the practiced virtue of truthfulness and

a society like that can't sustain itself

democratically so we've got to ask a lot

of experts they shouldn't be assessed

they should stay in their Lane but at

the same time we are screwed without

them and so there is a sacredness to

them and we have to feel that a little

bit the second thing I think we got to

feel is that our informational space is

sacred because on it is also dependent

the sustenance of our discourse and the

sustenance of our public squares and in

the under sustenance of our

democracy that feels hard and that even

feels wrong to you when I say it because

why you telling me to treat sacred what

feels to me on a daily basis like a kind

of ill assorted sest poool of

Darkness

um

it's precisely because that

to public squares our informational

environment is in such a bad

way they've got to be very very gentle

about how we think about it how we talk

about it and how we try to make it

better and I understand a tendency to

kind of lash out at it and maybe even

throw a couple of poison arrows just

into it because it all just feels so

intimidating and um sometimes even

unintelligible don't do

that if you do that don't beat yourself

up for it reflect on it reflect on how

that expresses your character who you

want to be how you want to lead your

life um

and don't beat yourself too much for

partaking in some of the destructive

Dynamics um that you encounter on the

internet and also know that sometimes

you might really really beat yourself up

for partaking in such Dynamics and then

you got to be gentle on on yourself and

gentle on the part of you that doesn't

want to be gentle with yourself so

that's a little bit of a a grounding

before we jump in so what are we jumping

into really well I I haven't read Ian p

yet I've just had a cursory look at it

uh and it seems like it's a long

discussion with a couple of practical

suggestions practical tips that will

come to at the end but we've got to

appreciate

that we

are living in a political moment of

moment in which our debates about the

state of our informational environment

are themselves part of our cultural

Wars

and that our

disagreements and

our conflicts about the impact of malign

foreign interference on

our

discourse that that itself is part of

our culture wars and our culture wars

are

deep we are experiencing a level of

polarization through which we're

beginning to relate to one another in

our own societies where whether you're

in France in in in Canada in Australia

we're beginning to relate to each other

not as opponents but as enemies so we're

living in a dynamic in which we risk

seeing each other as

enemies and in which our very

conversation about the state of our

informational environment and our very

evaluation of the extent of malign

foreign interference in our democracies

by the Chinese or by the Russians

Russians will be the top topic today

that itself is mobilized and

instrumentalized in our domestic culture

wars and then when it comes to you know

Ian Solutions we're going to see what

Ian proposes but one of the paradoxes we

have is this situation of trying to pull

ourselves out of the water um without

having anything to reach for because we

are living through a crisis of trust in

which we're going to have have to ask

institutions that have themselves lost

trust to take measures to mitigate the

loss of

trust okay enough enough let's

start I am going to probably

skip um evidence giving and explanations

and elaborations from time to time so we

might end up reading 60 70% of Yan's

article and I don't know how we'll go

either I'll give a bit of analysis as we

go along

or um at the

end

Ian a few weeks ago a Russian autocrat

addressed millions of Western citizens

in a propaganda event that would have

been Unthinkable a generation

ago yet it's so normal today as to

almost be un remarkable taka Carlson's

interview with the Russian

nonresident that's me Vladimir Putin has

now been viewed more than 120 million

times on YouTube on X uh formerly known

as Twitter despite the tedium of Putin's

2hour long lecture about an imaginary

Russian and Ukrainian history the

streaming and promotion of the interview

by Western platforms is only the latest

successful foray into Russia's

information war against the West which

Moscow is showing every sign of winning

look look at

that so going gangho in the first

paragraph which Moscow is showing every

sign of winning well quite certainly we

can

say that they

are waging an information war on us we

might say a bit more about it as we go

along and they are trying to win it

right um then comes a conversation about

the

impact uh relative to the commotion they

generate uh an impact relative their to

their um desire to make an impact and we

can talk about that um

and Ian is being alarmist here and

perhaps that's

reasonable and in this war the krin

isn't just weaponizing social media but

relying on westerners themselves to

spread its message far and

wide a decade into Russia's all out

information War social media companies

seem to have forgotten their promises to

act after the 2016 US Presidential uh

election interference

Scandal

um and again here we must recognize that

the interference

occurred um we

must uh having said that then have a

conversation about its efficacy

when Russian sponsored post reached 126

million Americans on Facebook

Alone um policy makers not only seem

oblivious to the full breath and scope

of Russia's information War but fears

about stifling freedom of speech and

contributing to political

polarization

um we'll get to that I'm sure in more

detail have led them and the social

media companies to largely refrain from

any action to stop Russia's ongoing

campaign now of course we're talking

about ourselves here while what some of

us might argue are our public squares of

which this being this is one um are in

the hands of potato chip companies um

that's to say there is a question about

the political

legitimacy of how our public squares are

regulated and curated uh we often debate

what is the best way to curate them um

what is the best way for YouTube to

organize its algorithm for

example but an even more basic question

is could anything that YouTube does be

perceived actually as more legitimate

than what my corner uh a vegetable store

would do if we asked it to moderate this

Public Square

this in action Ian says comes amid

growing signs of Russian influence

operations that have deeply penetrated

Western politics and Society dozens if

not hundreds or more of Russian agents

have been observed everywhere from

English towns to Canadian universities

many of these agents are lowlevel and

appear to achieve little individually

but occasionally they penetrate

institutions companies and

governments

I'm going to skip a couple of sentences

for many decades Western societies have

been DED with every sort of influence

imaginable while there have been some

countermeasures since the start of

Russia's latest War including in the US

and the EU shutting off access to

Russian media Network such as RT and

Sputnik in early 22 these small

ineffective steps are the equivalent of

information War virtue signaling they're

not

fundamentally they do not fundamentally

change Western government's lack of any

coherent approach to the many vectors of

Russian disinformation hydrid Warfare so

we often talk about a lack of Western

strategy on the military front and on

the front of the issue of the

politicization of the Russian space and

uh a strategic approach to questions of

European security and Security in

Eastern Europe and security on the EXO

Soviet space and we talk about why

that's so and how that might be linked

to what we call our Democratic

incapacity but here Ian is saying we

also have a strategy challenge a

strategy deficit in the infow

war Ian at the very moment when Kremlin

narratives on social media beginning to

ser seriously undermined support for

Ukraine Western government's handle on

the disinformation crisis seems to be

getting weaker by the day

so let's take a preliminary interlude

here and lay two things on to each other

one is the information crisis the other

is the crisis of

trust as you know I believe that the

information crisis we face

um um sits a

top uh a more fundamental challenge

which is our crisis of trust they call

it the biggest crisis of trust in public

institutions since the European

Revolutions of

1848

and you guys if you're regular here are

bought to Infinity

with my repeating something like a sort

of four plus four model four social

forces of democratic

degeneration four psychic psychologies

of diminution of trust right so the four

social forces are roughly I mean they're

just placeholders but are

roughly the untethering of communal

bonds through various political and

economic forces of Fusion right

communities pulled apart families pulled

apart a great deal of mobility and so on

um number one number two of course the

state of the internet which is where you

now engaging right now number three

various mechanisms of systemic

exclusion and number

four ideologies of psychic

self-realization that emphasize

authenticity or even certain distortions

of the value of authenticity at the

expense of solidarity and the public

good the the

psychic mirror of this in

four um steps is that least importantly

people feel unsafe with their public

institutions um because they feel that

they're incompetently run then more

worryingly people feel powerless they

feel there's no way to inflect the

political process around them then

people feel betrayed right getting

closer to the heart of the challenges of

polarization here people feel that um

political Representatives who they

disagree within their country aren't

just opponents but are enemies and are

positively

evil right so betrayal and the worst of

all emotions is um this feeling

of finding your political institutions

all your public institutions indeed even

Public Health institutions opaque you

look at them and it don't make any sense

what you're seeing you're looking at an

ill assorted game of sport where four or

five games are being played and it's a

flurry of baseball bats cricket bats

footballs and you can't make heads or

tails of it and the Instinct you get is

an instinct toward destruction well

let's get rid of this thing if it is uh

so disturbingly

unintelligible and very

often um when we accuse fellow citizens

of being victims of

disinformation

um it it's both true that we might be

right that they're pedaling half true

truths or untruths but it's also the

case that they are responsive to a deep

crisis of trust and perhaps on top of

this 4 plus4 model let's add a point

about agency a lot of people feel that

what you and I might cast as a truthful

picture of our

societies is so oppressive to them that

it just extinguishes political agency

their sense of itical agency so that's

to say it's not that people are dumb and

they need to wise up and they need to

stop falling for bad

disinformation we need to debate how far

that in itself is a useful thing to say

it is to some

extent it it's rather that we're living

in a social moment in which there is a

conflict between tens of millions of

citizens sense of sense of political

agency and truth and if we say that

that's a genuine social conflict it's

not just a matter of a few Trump voters

being

ignorant um and we can't just say that

all that's wrong here is um

irrationality or poor information so you

see you see how everything we've just

very curly put on the canvas

suggests

um uh a different emphasis right to a

line which says disinformation just

means people are making cognitive errors

they're not thinking clearly they're

brainwashed and so on right we're

talking about um people experiencing

real political emotions that exp that

are understandable in many

ways um that aren't M intellectual

errors um and these produce a situation

where certain pictures of their society

that um uh other citizens insist on um

that they might be often true are just

unpalatable to them they feel that it

would be a kind of political self

ulation to buy into it

right so underneath the crisis of

disinformation we have a crisis of

trust for Putin's Russia information

psychological warfare as um a Russian

military textbook calls it in is int

ended to erode the morale and

psychological Spirit of an enemy

population Ian

elaborates and I invite you to read the

piece if you want to read every sentence

let's go on

Moscow launches its attacks using a

Playbook similar familiar to anyone who

watched the disinformation campaigns

linked to the 14 invasion of Crimea in

the 16 presidential election Bots trolls

targeted ad campaigns fake news

organizations and doppelganger accounts

of real Western politicians and pundits

spread stories concocted in Moscow or in

Petersburg where the Vagner group leader

pran ran um an army of

trolls skipping a little

more what is undoubtedly new is a

polarized Western Public's enthusiasm

for reentering its own ident entity

around moscow's narratives and becoming

an unwitting weapon in the information

War take konon for instance and here Ian

elaborates and we skip while ordinary

users are certain that they're merely

speaking their minds a domestic policy

issue has ultimately turned into a

vehicle for Moscow to exert influence

over National Security

decisions such phenomena are all too

familiar whether they relate to the US

Presidential um election influence

Scandal we've just given a couple of

sent again to the constant reiteration

of moscow's talking points about NATO or

to the web of useful idiots um from

quasi journalists to rappers who seem to

function as mouthpieces for the Kremlin

by consistently spreading favorable

narratives under the guise of asking

questions or presenting two sides of

this story we're just having a

conversation man it's an exchange of

ideas

man Dave

Rubin Moscow also exploits nonwestern

networks such as telegram Tik Tok to its

own

advantage and here Ian is elaborating a

bit on Tik

Tok

now let's make a couple of remarks

briefly

it's quite standard of the Russians that

what what they're

into is not seeding new conflict but

taking a look at what conflicts already

animate

us and trying to make them

worse via uh sort of um

oversaturation of the informational

environment

by ill assorted messages that um

destructively appeal in various ways to

different

groups this raises a very very important

question about measuring impact and

whatever views you take of measuring

impact it's very important that there

are no obvious no obvious answers to it

um it's not easy to measure such impact

because the conflicts we're dealing with

are organic to our societies

typically and so have the Russians

exaggerated conflict X by trivially

speaking

0.1% or by 1.1% or by

71% got to go slow here and why do we

want to go slow here we want to go slow

here because because the Terminus here

is back to polarization right that's to

say treating other people uh in our

society as enemies because they are if

you like s soldiers right of the mission

of malign foreign

interference emanating out of this um

maniacal destructive and

self-destructing Empire in Moscow hang

on I'm just getting a telephone call on

on my highlighter here

hello oh you're reporting on the

beautiful

Community y I'm here

listening it's 2.3 okay I'm going to jot

that down so 2.3% of them with a Neo tag

in their Twitter account today called

the pope a Russian

asset okay it's a repeat offense for

many of them and it's 2.3%

well the pope does show um an

impoverished understanding of the

conflict but I do think that um that's

that's a worry them calling him um a

Russian asset I recommend I recommend

unfortunately I think 30 minutes of the

naughty step for that

2.3% what can they do they can read

Aristotle um 30 minutes of Aristotle on

the nauy step for the 2.3 all right all

right thank you sorry just had to take

that call I normally don't like

interrupting our conversations I know

it's incredibly

rude

Ian even when they ens I I must have

lost truck of some point I was making

before doesn't matter we're going in

circles sufficiently that we're covering

enough even when they ostensibly have

more control us policy makers have been

unwilling to do much to stem the tide of

pro-russian propaganda since musk toova

Twitter and renamed it X the networkers

all but openly welcomed Russian

influence campaigners into its service

the platform even

hosts Kremlin Ali Neo fascists such as

Alexander

Dugan and then let's skip a sentence

x x is stre dreaming and promotion of

the taka Carlson interview and musk on

echoing of Russian talking points such

as highly specific claims about Ukraine

using uh phrasing normally employed only

by Russian officials have come in for

heavy criticism but just as damaging are

the smaller communities created around

figures like Dugan where Western users

do much to spread an anti-

Ukraine um message

M well here Ian is making a Gambit in a

conversation about um how we might um

filter and

regulate

um our public

squares um of course it's an extremely

difficult conversation because as we

just mentioned a few minutes ago we've

got this crisis of legitimacy about the

fact that these are potato chip

companies um which we're asking to

regulate better a vital Democratic space

of

ours and we're dealing with algorithms

that are untransparent

um which is also very very big problem

as a real conversation about how to make

the algorithms transparent and we're

dealing with a a a world in which each

country has its own free speech

culture German's Free Speech culture is

very different to us free speech culture

what you could um get Civic consent for

in Germany around what constitutes

responsible speech is very different to

what you could get Civic consent for in

the United

States but we may or may not come back

to Dugan

specifically yeah this despite abundant

we've skipped the paragraph now examples

of Russian narrative showing up in

Western debates There is almost no

serious discussion within governments or

among the public about how to end

Russia's information war in the

west let's skip a

bit when Western governments do address

foreign hybrid threats such as cyber

security and election interference

they're increasingly also focused on

China and insufficiently focused on

Russia

skipping a bit more any Western

vision for future peace in Ukraine and

any discussion of a return to business

as usual with Russia must be paired with

restrictions on Russian interference and

influence in Western Daily Life Ukraine

which has been actively battling Russian

influence as part of its War

uh since 2014 has already developed

approaches from which the West could

learn

first okay so we're going to get some

practical suggestions here Ukraine has

taken to heart that information is a

weapon that Russia is using against the

West as ehos Sol head of Ukraine's

Center for strategic communication

information security put it in foreign

policy the West too Ian says must

reframe Russia's disinformation

campaigns and other influences

activities in the language of

war the West too must

refrain Russia's inform disinformation

campaigns and other influence activities

in the language of

war that I think is a normatively

impeccable

proposal the trouble with it in practice

is of course that we are increasingly

seeing each other as

enemies and understanding why that's

happening is absolutely

Central and understanding how far that

is a product of malign foreign

interference is itself absolutely

Central is toxic polarization in the

west 1% a product of malign foreign

interference or

10% a product of such interference that

makes a universe of difference and

they've got to work that out together

while being engaged in this toxic

polarization being caught up in this

toxic

polarization so

um there is absolutely value in this

categorization but it also comes with

dangers

and we might as well mention that um the

shovel we have to help ourselves in this

situation is a shovel that's uh losing

trust um and so to some extent trying to

um get uh institutions to take

action here um will be effective to some

extent it'll

[Music]

be

um a a matter of digging ourselves only

deeper into a hole with that shovel

while trying to fix the hole um and

we've got to make sure it's more of the

first and less of the second but that

danger is um always there because um we

have got a crisis of trust in

institutions and we're appealing to

institutions to fix a crisis of

trust second Western policy makers must

act in concert forming a coalition

analogous to the Ramstein group that

coordinates military aid to Ukraine to

pass laws and other measures to ensure

that Russia is not able to feed its

information directly to Western citizens

through social media and here I'm

especially grateful to him because we

need experts to attend to our

informational environment and I always

want to elevate experts who

constructively making us attend to this

and attend to all the dangers the state

of our informational environment

presents um because that goes to the

heart of the challenges we face I think

on that table behind me there's a couple

copies of Peter panov's latest book also

in information Warfare so we've got to

really uh be grateful to everybody who's

helping us engage in this

constructively

although in goes on citizens should be

free to discuss any stories they

like enemy combatants should not have

the right to free speech in the

west that means that figures such as the

ALR nationalist Dugan should not be

welcome on Western social

media the

platforms should be threatened uh with

paralyzing penalties for allowing

moscow's propaganda to spread

do we legislate the Dugan

example as plenty of stuff that Dugan

says that enov itself doesn't pass an

elementary test that test is that you

can't threaten violence and Dugan has

threatened

violence

um and he had has engaged

in

um

arguably that is my view genocidal

discourse

um of

course Dugan also has a lot of

interesting things to say about the very

thing we're talking about in other words

um if you get Hillary Clinton to talk

about the crisis of trust we face in the

west and you get Dugan to talk about it

we're going to learn more about the

problems we face and the solutions we

need from Dugan than from Hillary

Clinton uh he has a very uh

much uh

Superior intuitive hold for instance on

what motivates Western citizens to give

um to give up to lose trust

than um Hillary or at least the Hillary

since since 2016 would

so um what I'll do is simply not

legislate on this because I think it

could take us into into 10 minute

conversation we have to

weigh what would happen to

Dugan um so I'm just going to go with

Ian on

this uh for the purpose of this talk

um next the US state Department's

recently released framework for

combating disinformation Falls far short

in this regard when Moscow is already

fighting its hybrid War deep inside

Western Society is restricting moscow's

access to social media portals is energ

an essentially essential Act of National

Defense the time for vague plans

investigations and reports is over it is

time to use the West Superior technical

capacity to ensure that no Russian Bots

trolls or fake accounts are able to

access x uh Facebook and other

platforms let's go on finally so there's

a third Point um of practical

application is in making Western

governments must move Beyond ineffective

factchecking to embark on a mass program

of civic education through schools

universities and public

advertising

okay

um now civic education takes very

different forms but quite certainly

civic education about negotiating the

information environment is very very

important

and though we sometimes ourselves name

that and a lot of the activity we engage

in you and I engage in um especially

here on the second channel is something

that's not too far from um an

exploration of what what our civic

education needs might be and how to take

forward steps in into them uh into

making progress on this

um

and that's of course partly a feature

the fact that here on the chat Channel

we simply throw the algorithm out of the

window um we do not have any interest in

more people watching this video that's

these videos that's been my my Approach

so far so what we've had is a

Community that's

quite limited perhaps it's worth saying

a little bit about who we are as this is

a conversation about the information

environment we got a community that's

quite quite delimited and doesn't really

grow much except when some people come

over from the main Channel and the whole

point is not reach but a a relatively

limited group of people returning and

returning and returning and returning to

the same room to have a discussion

that isn't about a particular view of

the world being pushed but about

questions being asked about how we

might look um at what's around us better

make sense of it better how we might

square truthfulness and and hopefulness

how we might go on making sense of

things making sense of the world without

being broken by it and so

on let's do a quick note about Who We

Are I suppose

so um we are in a kind of um algorithmic

ecosystem here undoubtedly undoubtedly I

mean you're just not likely to be

recommended a taka Carlson video after

me right so we are in a certain kind of

algorithmic

space in it we are

older

so um I am

42 here most of the audience is a little

older than me a slight majority is over

45 here and we have plenty of over 65s

watching this too we're mostly North

American and

European we are disproportionately

tilted toward having degrees and quite a

few of you have

phds very disproportionate percentage

especially for the for the second

channel here um that's true we take the

climate crisis very seriously and we're

broadly enormously sympathetic to

Ukraine and indeed

preponderantly conscious that um we are

currently in the kind of strategic

stasis when it comes to Russia's brutal

invasion of

Ukraine so it says a little bit about

where we're at um so we're a very

particular group you you're not

representative of uh everyone in your

Society you're not representative of the

majority of people in your society and

in this algorithmic bubble you clearly

going to be uh protected from exposure

to certain things and you're going to

over index on exposure to certain other

things blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah a little bit about us as

the as the group extends the the repeat

audience on the main Channel perhaps is

is quite a bit bigger historically maybe

toward a quarter million and then that

even out and more people of various

kinds come in but what I've described is

the core audience the few tens of

thousands keep coming back and coming

back let's go on civic education for

Ian okay such a program should

relentlessly emphasize the threat that

Russia's interference

poses clearly label it as an ongoing war

and give it the public tools um um and

and give the public tools for

understanding and countering Russian

attacks in their varied forms but here

again we run into this problem we're

going to pull ourselves out of the water

without having anything to hold on to

because we're

ourselves in a toxic conflict about what

constitutes and what does not constitute

Russian influence in our society and

this is weaponized right that's to say

um people

on a side that in many ways we might

find sympathetics themselves also

weaponize this right let's take an

example of somebody you you

overwhelmingly admire Tim Snider Tim

Snider regularly says that Russian

interference played a significant role

in swinging the election toward Trump in

2016 I do not think that is something

that one can say while in that instance

being a responsible public

intellectual

right um in part because of the

inconclusiveness of the evidence an

impact but even more importantly um you

are generating conspiracy

theories right potentially which as it

were Outsource organic domestic conflict

as though it were preponderantly a

product of malign foreign

interference that by deepening the

crisis of

trust thereby deepening the

polarization and thereby treating the

crisis of agency that many voters are

experiencing as though it were a product

either of malign fore interference or

irrationality that's the risk right

that's the risk and so we're all in

danger of instrumentalization and

mobilization of this right so how do we

transcend this

one approach might be to um focus not on

Russia's attack on us which is

absolutely real in civic education but

on how to negotiate the information

environment no matter who is attacking

us right we're not necessarily

contradicting what the has

written a recent Canadian government

campaign was a good start but frame

disinformation as a vague threat that

hides well rather than exposing it as

the tool of a foreign government

attacking Western societies it's very

important I think to Ian to say no no we

got to name it as the Russians we've got

to see exactly what the Russians are

doing what it looks like and and we

should you know get better at seeing it

when it's there in broad

daylight Ukraine's program of anti-

disinformation education has proved

robust and could serve as a model of

course some Western citizens could still

choose to access Russian propaganda

through non-western

Services um a truly bold government

would respond to the Russian threat not

just defensively but in kind by flooding

pro-russian Channels with on telegram

with Western messaging and establishing

other channels that that subtly spread

anti-russian narratives I think Ian is

actually making a very important Point

here we're not doing this part of the

reason we're not doing this is that we

still talk about this conflict between

democracy and authoritarianism but we

kind of realized that as the post 1989

Global orders melting

down we made a video about this on the

main Channel

um we're becoming shy to talk about it

in terms of a battle between

authoritarianism and democracy and

indeed in many ways shy for good reasons

it's not it's often naive to to still

conceive the world in that way

um I

and we're uncomfortable to do some of

what they're doing to us to them and we

haven't even conceived of what that

would look

like um but I think conceiving what it

would look like in practice right and

flooding their information the

environment is very important and we can

start here with something that's a

little bit less High futin a little bit

less U pompous than this conflict

between authoritarian authoritarianism

and democracy by asking a very basic

question is there any human on earth for

whom

democracy and the modum of political

Liberty that comes with is inappropriate

as a social form and my answer to that

would be no right then we start start

building from that Ian when Russia

invaded Crimea in 2014 the Kremlin spent

millions of dollars in trolls to spread

its messaging

online um for Putin the money was well

spent since then Russia's approach has

been constantly refined reaching deeply

into electoral processes and public

debate ultimately affecting decisions

about how and whether to Aid

Ukraine but we need to assess impact

right not just um how much they tried

and how much commotion they generated

yet Western policy makers have still let

themselves be caught on the back foot

because they either do not or will not

confront the reality the kmin is waging

a war on the West in which all citizens

are already a part resolving this

problem will require bold and

potentially unpopular action so

here unpopular action

raises uh an alarm because one of the

things that we do not want to do um is

deepen the crisis of trust we are in

while trying to solve it um and we would

deepen the crisis of trust if we were

they sensious and simply told citizens

who are misinformed to shut up and to

RSE up because that political

asphixiation they're feeling we would

treat as simple error or simple sort of

um naive immersion in Enterprises of

Mali forign interference not a product

of an overwhelmingly domestic crisis of

trust right so we need to balance the

domestic crisis of trust that we're

somewhat drowning in with these

genuinely d

dangerous uh ongoing Enterprises of

interference let's make no mistake about

this since 2014 it is essentially been

the proper policy of the Kremlin to

destabilize

um

um Western democracies and I think

there's a paragraph here from Ian which

either I haven't

read or I've read forgotten let's read

it again in case I didn't read

it um in fact we may have missed it so

let's do it as we enter the third year

sorry to go back but this is really

important the third year of Russia's

attempt to conquer Ukraine has become

apparent that the Kremlin information

war is fully integrated into the

military one some of that is aimed at

Ukraine with Russian disinformation

campaigns attempting to sew distrust

there but for the crumlin information

war against the West is key Ian

continues that's because Putin's theory

of victory in Ukraine runs through

Western

capitals and of course you know that I

deeply agree with that analysis if you

if you're regular here if Western

support can be under minded over time KF

will lack the weapons and resources to

keep fighting the war over Western

opinions therefore at least as

existential for Putin as the fight on

the ground Ukraine Putin's theory of

Victory is Western Decline and Putin's

view of Western Decline and quite

frankly the view of the Kovalchuk

Brothers the view of patf the view of a

handful plus of people around Putin is

that is a kind of anti fuk is a kind of

fukami anism in Reverse as I call it

that's to say they don't just think that

we have a crisis of trust and Democratic

decline as I in historical terms

outline they believe that we are facing

imminent Democratic collapse inexorably

so and that's because um history can't

sustain the shade that um we are trying

to insist um uh on being a genuine

political Enterprise that's to say all

of our fluff about democracy is just

going to be washed away by history it's

not real it's ephemeral so Western

Democratic collapse is inevitable and

it's a matter of time so they see see

our decline not as a genuine crisis

which it is but as a kind of almost you

know historically theological Dogma yeah

so that that's why I think Ian is saying

something really important and true when

he says um that their theory of Victory

runs through our

capitals final remark from Ian as Ai and

other Technologies make the

dissemination of messaging to West nans

even easier this is going to get worse

it's time for Western governments to act

otherwise Moscow will we're not only

militar but a

hybrid uh uh War as well right Moscow

will win not only a military war in

Ukraine but a hybrid one across the

West so let me make one final remark

that might be not as Central as the

other things I've said um rather than

just repeating all the little

interventions I made and that might be a

remark about algorithmic

thought um algorithmic thought is when

what we react to

is and this is also an important part of

civic education is when we react to not

the meaning of what's said but to the

surface of it and to the signals that

come with it

so um we hear the word Nal our reaction

is Assange we hear the word Naval our

reaction is

sandwich

um and we are reacting to

slogans with

slogans and are

ourselves in this sort of

rather

binary

Dynamic um that mirrors the workings of

the current algorithms on social media

platforms

um and

that

is destructive upon free thought

nobody with a very few exceptions of

people in weird jobs sometimes it might

be true of philosophers nobody has a

duty to think originally but we all have

a duty to

think um for ourselves and to think

freely as as much as we can and the

algorithm ification of thought right is

a

danger

that um threatens us and we've got to be

careful about it because of course we

are easily persuaded that the best way

to um react to the ghastly cremling

algorithm ification of thought you know

somebody mentions Ukraine and then the

phrase comes out where were you eight

years in the in you know um in the

donbass um when eight years of bombing

in the donbass um and that is so um of

repeated in the

Russian um propaganda space that they

often even get the the the words and the

syllables of the word the wrong way

around because it said so quickly

um we don't want to do that as elves and

one way in which a lot of us have

persuaded ourselves um to take on

Russian um propaganda is to ourselves

engage in various sort of Al

algorithmic uh uh uh

sloganizer

that um

are of questionable efficacy and above

all are not democ

atically uh substantial right so um we

don't want to

debunk um vile untruthful slogans with

other slogans which might be less

untruthful and less vile what we want is

to um engage in a way that is conducive

to a public conversation that involves

all of us that keeps as many Western

citizens at the table as possible

and that invites us to some microscopic

bits of progress in the realm

of imagination and strategic thought to

what the um challenges we face so just

an inarticulate micro Rand from me here

on the dangers of algorithmic thought

but the core of what we've talked about

here

is Ian's very important warning about

the dangers to our information

environment and my addition of a

footnote of importance here which is

that um the crisis of disinformation is

deep

down to a large extent at least

reducible to an organic crisis of trust

that's threatening our democracies which

quite certainly to whatever extent um we

still need to debate the criminal is

trying to

exploit lots of

and uh congratulations if you survived

um this session bye-bye for now