Exercise volume and health: minimum dose, optimal dose, and can too much exercise shorten lifespan?

Summary

In this podcast, the hosts delve into the relationship between exercise and health, particularly endurance sports like running, cycling, and swimming. They discuss the idea that while exercise is crucial for health, there may be a point of diminishing returns where over-exercising could become counterproductive. The conversation touches on the 'J-shaped' curve of exercise longevity, where too much exercise might increase mortality rates due to factors like cardiac dysrhythmia. The hosts also emphasize the importance of understanding one's limits and the role of discomfort in exercise. They stress that for most people, the goal should be to increase physical activity rather than worry about over-exercising, and that a balanced approach to exercise, including strength training and varying intensities, is key for overall health and longevity.

Takeaways

• 🏃‍♂️ The purpose of endurance sports like running, cycling, and swimming is to enhance speed and endurance.
• 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Most people are not competing anymore, yet endurance-based exercise remains a crucial component of overall health.
• 🚫 The term 'cardio exercise' is disliked, but it's acknowledged that it's important for health.
• 🤔 The discussion explores if there's a point where exercise becomes counterproductive and the specific benefits for metabolism and disease prevention.
• 🚫 The concept of 'over-exercising' is examined, with a focus on the potential negative effects on health, including cardiac issues.
• 🔍 There's a debate on the optimal amount of exercise, with some suggesting a J-shaped curve where too much exercise can lead to increased mortality.
• 🏥 Studies like the Copenhagen and Cooper Clinic ones are critiqued for their methodologies, which may skew results on the benefits of exercise.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Strength training is highlighted as an important aspect of a well-rounded fitness routine, often overlooked in favor of endurance activities.
• 🤷‍♂️ For most people, the concern isn't over-exercising but rather the lack of exercise, with a focus on getting more people to be active.
• 🧘‍♂️ Exercise, particularly endurance training, can serve social and mental health purposes beyond physical benefits.

Q & A

What is the general consensus on the importance of endurance-based exercise for health?

Endurance-based exercise, such as running, cycling, and swimming, is considered an important pillar of health. It is crucial for building endurance and speed, which are key aspects of fitness. Even for those who are no longer competing, it remains significant for overall health.

How does the perception of discomfort during exercise affect one's exercise routine?

Many people interpret distress signals during exercise, such as panting or muscle fatigue, as signs that they are reaching their physical limits. Understanding that these discomforts are not harmful but rather indicators of exertion can help individuals push through and continue exercising.

What is the J-shaped curve theory regarding exercise and longevity?

The J-shaped curve theory suggests that there is an optimal amount of exercise for longevity. At low levels of exercise, mortality rates are high, but they decrease as exercise increases. However, beyond a certain point, increasing exercise volume may lead to a slight increase in mortality, possibly due to overexertion and associated health risks.

What is the minimum effective dose of exercise for health benefits?

According to some studies, even a small amount of exercise, such as 5 to 10 minutes a day, can provide significant health benefits. However, this is a starting point, and individuals, especially those returning to exercise after a long hiatus, may benefit from gradually increasing this amount.

How does the type of exercise influence the potential benefits and risks?

The type of exercise can greatly influence its benefits and potential risks. For instance, marathon training may not be the best for longevity due to its intense nature, while a more balanced approach, including strength training and varying intensities, might be more beneficial.

What role does the social aspect play in endurance sports?

Endurance sports often have a significant social component. For many, activities like running or cycling are not just about physical exercise but also about social interaction and stress relief, which can contribute positively to mental health and overall well-being.

What are the potential downsides of excessive endurance training?

Excessive endurance training can lead to issues like cardiac dysrhythmia, aerosis, endothelial damage, and fibrosis. It's important to balance training with rest and other forms of exercise to mitigate these risks.

How does the concept of 'opportunity cost' apply to exercise routines?

The concept of 'opportunity cost' in exercise routines refers to the potential benefits foregone by focusing on one type of exercise, such as marathon training, at the expense of other activities that could contribute more to overall health and longevity.

What is the significance of the statistical adjustments made in studies regarding exercise and mortality?

Statistical adjustments in studies can significantly affect the conclusions drawn about exercise and mortality. It's crucial to ensure that these adjustments do not unfairly penalize or advantage certain groups, as this can lead to misleading results, such as the appearance or disappearance of the J-curve.

Why might the J-curve hypothesis be controversial in the context of exercise and health?

The J-curve hypothesis is controversial because it suggests that too much exercise might be detrimental to health. However, the methodology used in some studies, particularly regarding the statistical adjustments made, has been questioned, leading to debates about the validity of the hypothesis.

How should individuals approach exercise if their goal is to optimize their health span?

If the goal is to optimize health span, individuals should consider a well-rounded exercise routine that includes strength training, flexibility exercises, and varying intensities. They should also focus on activities they enjoy to ensure sustained engagement and consider the social and mental health benefits of their chosen exercises.

Outlines

00:00

🏃‍♂️ The Importance of Exercise in Health and Endurance Sports

The paragraph delves into the significance of exercise, particularly endurance sports like running, cycling, and swimming, in relation to health. It emphasizes the dual goals of speed and endurance in sports and acknowledges the shift in focus from competition to health as people age. The discussion touches on the concept of 'cardio exercise' and its importance as a health pillar. It raises questions about the potential counterproductive effects of excessive exercise and the specific benefits of exercise for energy efficiency and metabolism in combating disease. The speaker encourages a scientific and personal reflection on these topics, hinting at a broader conversation to come.

05:01

🚴‍♂️ Exercise Intensity and Its Impact on Health

This section explores the idea that while exercise is crucial for health, there might be a point where it becomes counterproductive. It discusses the 'J-shaped' curve of exercise longevity, suggesting that a certain volume of exercise is optimal, but beyond that, there might be increased mortality risks, such as cardiac dysrhythmia. The paragraph also introduces a contrasting viewpoint that exercise benefits may increase monotonically with no negative uptick. The speaker reflects on their own exercise habits, suggesting that while they may not be at the extreme end of the curve, understanding the relationship between exercise volume and health is complex and personal.

10:02

🏋️‍♂️ Balancing Exercise for Health vs. Performance

The discussion here centers on the practical aspects of exercise, particularly the distinction between exercising for health and for performance. It challenges the notion of a J-shaped curve relating to exercise volume and mortality, citing issues with statistical adjustments in studies that claim such a relationship. The speaker argues that the health benefits of exercise are in helping regulate factors like blood pressure and blood sugar, and adjusting for these in studies may be misleading. The paragraph concludes with a focus on the importance of exercise variety and the potential downsides of excessive endurance training, suggesting that a well-rounded approach to exercise is more beneficial than extreme training for longevity.

15:04

🤸‍♂️ The Role of Exercise in a Well-Rounded Health Portfolio

This paragraph emphasizes the importance of a diverse exercise routine for longevity, critiquing the idea that intense training for specific sports like marathons or the Tour de France is optimal for health. It points out that such training can lead to anemia, osteoporosis, and poor posture, which are not conducive to a long and healthy life. The speaker advocates for a balanced approach that includes strength training, stability exercises, and varying workout intensities to work different energy systems. The paragraph also touches on the social and pleasurable aspects of exercise, suggesting that for many, the motivation for high-mileage training is not health optimization but competition or personal fulfillment.

20:06

🎵 The Multifaceted Benefits of Running Beyond Physical Health

The final paragraph of the transcript is a brief musical interlude, suggesting a pause or transition in the conversation. It does not contain any spoken dialogue or information to summarize.

Keywords

💡Endurance Sports

Endurance sports refer to physical activities that require prolonged exertion and stamina, such as running, cycling, and swimming. In the context of the video, endurance sports are central to the discussion on the benefits and potential drawbacks of intense physical training. The script mentions that while the purpose of these sports is to enhance speed and endurance, they also raise questions about the optimal level of exercise for health.

💡Cardio Exercise

Cardio exercise, short for cardiovascular exercise, is a form of physical activity that raises heart rate to improve heart health, lung function, and overall fitness. The video script discusses the importance of cardio exercise as a pillar of health, even for those who are no longer competing in sports, suggesting it remains a vital component of maintaining well-being.

💡Exercise Barriers

Exercise barriers are the obstacles or challenges that prevent individuals from engaging in physical activity. The script addresses the psychological aspect of exercise, where the body's distress signals during initial exercise can be misinterpreted as limits, acting as a barrier. Understanding these signals as informational rather than prohibitive can help overcome such barriers.

💡Physically Active

Being physically active implies engaging in regular physical exercise or movement. The video emphasizes the importance of being physically active for health, suggesting that for many, the challenge is not about reaching extreme limits but understanding and interpreting the body's signals during exercise.

💡Exercise Volume

Exercise volume refers to the total amount of exercise performed, often measured in time or distance. The script discusses the concept of a 'J-shaped' curve relating exercise volume to mortality rates, suggesting a sweet spot where benefits plateau and can potentially reverse with excessive training volumes.

💡Metabolic Syndrome

Metabolic syndrome is a cluster of conditions that increase the risk of heart disease and diabetes, including increased waist circumference, high blood pressure, and abnormal cholesterol levels. The video uses this term to describe a scenario where a lack of exercise might be a significant factor contributing to health issues, highlighting the need for a minimum effective dose of physical activity.

💡Minimum Effective Dose

The minimum effective dose in the context of exercise refers to the smallest amount of physical activity required to achieve substantial health benefits. The script cites research suggesting that even a modest amount of exercise, such as 5 to 10 minutes a day, can provide significant health benefits, challenging the notion that extreme exercise is necessary.

💡Injury Prevention

Injury prevention in the context of the video involves strategies to avoid physical harm from exercise, especially for those new to physical activity or returning after a long hiatus. The discussion points out the importance of a balanced exercise routine to prevent overuse injuries and to build overall strength and flexibility.

💡Statistical Adjustment

Statistical adjustment is a method used in research to account for differences between groups to ensure fair comparison. The script critiques studies that adjust for variables like weight and blood pressure, arguing that this method can misrepresent the true benefits of exercise by artificially equalizing groups and potentially creating a misleading 'J-curve'.

💡Longevity

Longevity refers to living a long life, often with emphasis on health and quality of life. The video discusses the goal of optimizing exercise for longevity, suggesting that the type and amount of exercise should be tailored to promote health and extend life, rather than solely focusing on performance or competition.

💡Social Element

The social element of exercise refers to the social interactions and community that can be part of physical activities. The script notes that for many, especially those engaged in higher volumes of exercise, the social aspect of sports like running can be a significant motivator and contributor to overall well-being, beyond the physical benefits.

Highlights

The discussion emphasizes the importance of endurance sports for health, even for those who are no longer competing.

Endurance-based exercise is acknowledged as a crucial pillar of health, despite the participants not being professional athletes.

The conversation delves into the concept that exercise can become counterproductive beyond a certain point.

The potential for exercise to be counterproductive is linked to energetics, efficiency with metabolism, and disease resistance.

The idea that exercise should not be feared but understood as a way to gauge one's physical limits is presented.

The conversation challenges the notion that discomfort during exercise is a negative signal.

A J-shaped curve is introduced to discuss the relationship between exercise volume and mortality rates.

The debate over whether there is a point of diminishing returns with increased exercise is explored.

The discussion points out that for most people, the goal should be to increase exercise rather than worry about over-exercising.

The importance of understanding the health benefits of a modest amount of exercise is highlighted.

The Cooper Clinic study's findings on the minimum effective dose of exercise are mentioned.

The conversation suggests that for some, increasing strength training might be more beneficial than adding more mileage to their running.

The potential downsides of excessive endurance training, such as cardiac dysrhythmia, are discussed.

The practical issue of whether people are exercising too much is addressed, with a focus on the need for a well-rounded exercise routine.

The discussion argues against the idea that everyone should aim to run a marathon for health optimization.

The social and pleasurable aspects of endurance sports are recognized as important factors that contribute to their value.

The conversation concludes that the focus should be on the quality of exercise rather than the quantity for most people.

The importance of not penalizing exercisers for the health benefits they've gained from exercising is emphasized.

Transcripts

where do you think this fits

into health so there's I mean this is

clearly uh an important topic when we're

talking about sports right when we're

talking about Endurance Sports like you

know running and cycling and swimming

the purpose of the sport is to be fast

is to have endurance and speed at that

right combination um many of the people

listening to this podcast are no longer

competing you know you're still

competing but most people aren't I don't

compete at anything anymore

um but I hate the term but quote unquote

cardio exercise or endurance-based

exercise we would still agree is still

an important pillar of health

so how do you how do you think about

that and and more importantly how do you

think about what you've studied um

applying to health and and one of the

things I want to talk about because it's

so interesting of course is at some

point does exercise become

counterproductive and maybe even what

are the benefits specifically uh you

know for example energetics uh

efficiency with metabolism and how that

can fight disease so uh in any way you

want to start that discussion like how

how do you start to think about it uh

both scientifically and even

personally yeah so that's a big bite to

chew on that's you you've mapped out the

next uh three hours of our conversation

yes um so one thing I would say is I

mean look I don't want to oversell it

and say you must understand you know

your your absolute limits in order to be

healthy

but I I do think in terms

of if we think about the barriers to

exercise the barriers to being

Physically Active I think for a lot of

people

um there's a if you interpret the

distress signals you feel when you start

exercising as signs that your body is

reaching its limit that's a very

distressing thing you you you know if

you're like I'm going to start an

exercise program I'm going to start

brisk walking I'm going to start running

and you feel you're panting you're out

of breath your legs are burning you're

like I'm going to die and you stop and

so I think understanding that

these it's not so much about how to

change your limits but understanding

what those limits represent

understanding that they are

not signs that you're going to die these

are just this is just information this

is and because I would say and I I

haven't thought this through maybe it's

not true but I would say off top of my

head any meaningful form of exercise

that's going to do you substantial

amounts of good is going to involve

dealing with discomfort uh in in in one

form or another and if you can get to a

place where you understand that the

feelings of discomfort are not signs

that something is going wrong with your

body but they are just information they

are telling you where you are on the

road to reaching your limits and you

don't have to go to your limits but you

also don't have to stop you're allowed

to just interpret that as information

and say okay understood I'm out of

breath but I can keep going so I

think to me at least that that's a

useful insight to take to take from this

now you know we could we can get deeper

then into you you know you've raised

some some very interesting and

controversial questions about you know

how much exercise is good what kind of

exercise do we need to do I don't know

where you want to start with that well

let's because we don't have three hours

although I I

mean when we meet in person and and and

share a meal we we certainly will take

those three hours but I let's start with

um two opposing points of view with

respect to exercise so one point of view

says the exercise longevity curve is

j-shaped so at at at the you know far

end of the spectrum uh no exercise is

you know a really bad thing for

mortality um as you increase exercise

mortality improves improves improves

improves improves improves and then it

kind of gets to your best all cause

mortality and if you continue to

increase exercising Beyond a certain

volume this is generally discussed in

volume of exercise you actually see a

little uptick in mortality suggesting

that once you go beyond a certain point

again I want to stress this is in volume

of exercise you don't get any more

benefit and you may actually have more

harm and a lot of times this is harm

that comes in the form of cardiac

dysrhythmia um could be even aerosis

through endothelial damage fibrosis

things like that there's another body of

literature that that says no it's more

or less a monotonically improving curve

and again we all agree that at one end

of the spectrum uh having you know

really poor cardiovascular fitness again

we could measure this in V2 Max or

something like that uh as that improves

and you get fitter and fitter and fitter

and fitter all cause mortality goes

lower and lower and lower and there is

no J to that curve um how do you think

about reconciling those and I I want to

point out at the outset this is a

discussion that only really impacts like

1% of the population because 99% of the

population are on the side of the curve

where they could always benefit from

exercising more but you know you for

example might be one of those people

who's in the 1% where I don't know

what's your weekly mileage right

now I I I fortunately it's only probably

about 20 miles so so even uh even James

o'keef would would would give me a pass

yeah yeah yeah so um so walk me through

how you think about that because I have

to be honest with you um I'm I've seen

examples of you know those athletes who

go a little bit too far who probably

have a genetic susceptibility to dis

rythmia and then they go on and get

these

dysrhythmias um but at the same time

they're few and far in between so I

don't I don't I'm still a bit on the

fence about this one again just purely

from an intellectual standpoint I don't

think it applies to me anymore it

probably did at some

point so it's it's it's it's a good

question it's an important one and

there's a a couple a few things I want

to say first I'm a runner right so so

take take what I say understand where

I'm coming from I'm also a human like I

don't want to die so I'm I I try to look

at this data as imp as dispassionately

as possible so but but I I obviously I

my kneejerk reaction is like let's find

holes in this data that suggest running

is bad so I get that on the

table second there's no doubt that

there's a reverse J curve if you try to

run 20 20 hours a day it's not going to

be good for you so like it's nothing is

good for you if you push it far enough

so the real question is where do the

extremes or where does the the uptick

happen

um third thing I want to say is the this

this the data on this this showing that

you know you do a little bit you get

some benefits and the more you do it it

gets worse and worse one really

interesting thing that came out of that

were a few studies in about eight years

ago that that showed that is that

actually the the dose you need to get

most of the health benefits is very

small and I do think that's an important

message you do not need to train or for

or run marathons in order to be

optimally healthy at least to within the

you know the 90% or whatever you're

going to get most of what you get from a

very modest amount of exercise and so

that's a great message so okay now then

can you quantify that by the way in

terms of in terms of running let's let's

put some numbers to that if you're

talking about a person who maybe was

active in high school and college but

you know they're they're 10 or 20 years

out of that they've been caught up in

the challenges of starting their career

starting their family Etc they wake up

they're 40 years old and their waist is

5 in bigger they've got metabolic

syndrome they're not in Dire Straits

it's not like they're going to die in

the next 10 years but they've got the

message which says Hey the one thing

that is really missing is your

exercise what what would you say if they

SC to you and said Alex just tell me the

minimum effective dose I don't want to

run any weekend races I like running I

used to love it uh or rowing or whatever

their activity is how how many hours or

how many miles do I need to do a week to

just get the benef some of the you know

80% of the benefits with 20% of the

efforts yeah so so the the Cooper Clinic

study which was like 50,000 people or so

uh that came out four or five years ago

they're

number was 5 to 10 minutes a

day I don't fully believe that but that

that was their number so they're talk

you're talking like an hour a week um I

and and that's just you know going out

for a run I personally we maybe we can

get into this and that that's not my

definition of an optimal exercise

routine I would include some

high-intensity stuff I you know strength

is another thing but um so they're

there's making some claims about a very

very low minimum effective dose

personally I would say so I I said like

I said I'm probably running about 20 mil

a week right now which is 6 days a week

you know half an hour with a couple of

hard days I think that's on the to me

that's on the low end of of I I think I

would be healthier if I did more at this

point um and it's just you think you you

would actually be healthier I know you'd

be a better Runner but would you be a

healthier would you would you live

longer I think I think I would now I

think if I if I had to the first thing I

would do if you know if I was if I had

instant motiv

powder that I was going to dust on

myself I would get I would up my

strength R my my strength training

routine that would be the first thing I

do if longevity was my first priority oh

I'm sorry I misunderstood so you

wouldn't necessarily run more you would

take extra time and add it in the weight

room or do something else no I would run

more like if if if I was prioritizing I

would prioritize strength first but I

think if I could also if I also change

you know I I think for me because

because I'm come from a background where

I'm already I'm used to running 20 mil a

week doesn't stress me very much you

know I it it just slows down my decline

I I think I could benefit from let's say

one long longer run a week or something

like that this the gut feel let's not

you know I don't want to this is not

supported by anything other than my gut

but so the 5 to 10 minutes a day it

might be it's definitely the right place

to start if you're the 45-year-old you

know sedentary you know getting back

into it but I think you you might want

to push something a little higher a

little higher than that um or or

certainly if you're doing if you're

doing 60 Minutes a week I wouldn't do it

in 5 to 10 minute chunks I would do some

20 minute chunks or whatever and what do

we know about injury prevention in that

person that probably they're going to

get injured because they're G to because

they're going to find that they're no

matter how metabolically unfit they are

they're probably going to find that they

gain metabolic Fitness more quickly than

they gain uh you know tendon stiffness

and and and muscle strength and things

like that so in a sense that's a even

more reason to to sort of take that

guideline seriously I mean I'm talking

about running which because I love you

you're less likely to get injured if you

go cycling or something like that that's

obviously there's other other ways of

mitigating the the injury thing but yeah

from

so but let me let me just cast some

doubt on the on the j-shape thing the

there there were two main studies on

which this whole J curve hypothesis was

founded one was the Copenhagen uh study

and and one was the Cooper Clinic study

the Copenhagen study initially it came

out saying running is great and more

running is better and then they

reanalyzed it uh with a new co-author

and and they concluded that running too

much or too fast was bad that was based

on uh there were two deaths in the in

the group that ran too fast like this is

not the confidence interval was

essentially infinite

like but there's a more serious problem

and that and it's one that affects the

Cooper Clinic data too which is is that

when you're when you have a big study of

50,000 people who were just randomly

selected they're not all the same they

all have different characteristics so

you have to find some way of adjusting

for various characteristics um and

without going too far down the rabbit

hole

basically they statistically adjusted

initially at least for things like uh

cholesterol levels weight uh blood sugar

levels blood pressure because you want

to you know it's meaningless if you

compare like we had this you know the

non-runners died sooner than the runners

but they were also 20 pounds heavier and

had all these other risk factors so you

want to equalize it um but there's a

problem that if you equalize it you're

bit you're you're essentially saying

well what are the health benefits of

exercise if you don't do any exercise

because the health benefits are of

exercise are precisely in helping you

regulate things like blood pressure and

blood sugar and controversially but I

would say weight also um

so essentially I mean to me that was

statistical misconduct like that that so

you're you're saying if you take the the

people who exercise and you subtract you

basically penalize them for having lower

weight better lipids better blood sugar

better blood preure so you you bring

them in line so that they're just as

overweight and just have all the other R

risk factors then you see this J curve

now when they actually published the

data in a peer- reviewed Journal two

years after it was presented they had

eliminated that that statistical method

and the J curve had disappeared you no

longer Saw the J curve

now there you know I don't I don't want

to just dismiss and say therefore

there's nothing to see I'm just saying

that if we're talking about where the

curve

happens if you do that kind of

statistical adjustment which is the

equivalent of saying like I want to know

whether smoking causes cancer but I

can't compare the smokers and nonsmokers

because the smokers have more lung

cancer so let's artificially equalize it

and pretend that the smokers just have

just as much cancer that I mean that you

can't basically in statistical terms you

can't adjust for a variable a mediating

variable a variable that's affected by

the thing you're trying to

measure so sorry as you can tell this is

this is a topic I get excited no it is

and I've read what you've written about

it which is why I wanted to bring it up

I have a slightly different take on it

which is less about everything you've

said and more of the Practical issue

because the Practical issue is the one I

get asked about a lot which is am I

exercising too much right this is the

person asking the question and so again

let's pause it for a moment that 99% of

people are not exercising too much and

don't even possess the fortitude to

exercise too much right they don't the

the the pain tolerance isn't there the

obsession with exercise isn't there so

for for 99% of people we'd like to get

them to exercise more or stay the same

we're dealing with 1% of the population

many of whom I know and one of whom I

used to be um that we kind of the hyper

exercisers here's the bigger point I

would make it's probably less relevant

whether or not they're spending too many

hours cycling swimming running Etc

usually people in this sense it's not

the number of hours they're spending

it's the portfolio allocation of how

they're spending it that's the bigger

problem it's that they're not well

rounded and they're not actually in

pursuit of longevity so the reality of

it is is training for the tour to France

going to increase your longevity

absolutely not no way like those guys

finish the tour who are anemic

osteopenic their upper bodies are

emaciated their posture is horrible

there's nothing about that that is

setting you up to be an octogenarian

that kicks ass nothing whatsoever so

they physiologic Marvels but their

health span sucks right so that's using

that as an extreme what do how would we

extrapolate that to The 40-Year-Old who

just can't hang up the dreams of being a

professional athlete who's out there you

know running or riding or doing all of

that stuff non-stop but at the expense

of maybe not doing some Pilates to work

on core strength I hate the term but you

know what just for people to understand

what I'm saying like not working on

stability not spending any time in the

weight room really working on strength

not varying the intensity of their

workouts to work different Energy

Systems so to me that's the bigger issue

with people who are exercising too much

it's probably not that they're at the

little tip of a j that may or may not

exist it's that they're squandering

their time it's like having all of this

money but you're invested you have a

lousy

portfolio yeah okay I I I agree with a

lot of that one thing I'll say is is the

important question you're you're you're

implicitly asking there is what's your

goal right like what what are you

training for well that's I said

longevity this was all predicated

towards living a longer healthier life

and meaning and so not winning races or

whatever I I would 100% agree if if

someone CES comes to me and says I you

know

I want to optimize my exercise program

for longevity like I said before there's

no there's no way I would tell them you

should be run training for a marathon

that's not because I think training for

a marathon is bad but like you said it's

an opportunity cost of of other things

you could be doing that a lot of other

things you could be doing that would

probably work better that so I I think

it's really important to disabuse people

of the notion that um in order to

optimize your health you should run a

marathon but I where I Bridle with this

whole this sort of the the media

coverage of the that that stream of

research is that that's different from

saying that people who are training for

a marathon because they want to run a

marathon or because they want to run a

marathon as fast as possible

should should stop because that's bad so

it's like of the of the of the category

of people who have unhealthy behaviors

who we should intervene to save them

from themselves it's like like people

who are training for a marathon to me

are not even close to being in the same

category as people like me who are

sitting at a desk for for eight hours a

day or whatever the case may be so it's

like there's a difference between

optimizing and avoiding like serious

problems and and and I the one other

thing I should acknowledge is and you

you alluded to it is there are other

issue potential issues with with lots of

endurance training and arhythmia is one

of them and there's there's better

evidence that that's that's a real thing

um so you know like there may be a price

uh there may be downsides to to to

training really hard on

balance overall I would say I don't I

don't lie awake at night worrying about

people who are running 50 miles a week

yeah you're right uh you you should

worry far more about people who are

eating poorly smoking who are stressed

out of their minds and don't have coping

mechanisms for them yeah there there are

there's a there there's there's not many

people that you should be worrying about

more or less rather yeah and and and if

I think of the people I know who who

let's say run the equivalent of 50 miles

a week or more I I I can't think of any

of them who would say I'm doing this

because I think this is what I need in

order to optimize my my health span or

lifespan that you know they obviously

hope it's healthy but I think if you're

if you're training for a marathon most

of them are doing it for for competition

or not you know self-c competition in a

way and and it sort of reminds me of

something you know you discussed this a

little bit I think in in your

conversation with James O'Keefe the the

sort of what's great about t tennis and

badminton and and volleyball or whatever

what's the social social element of it

and I think sure on average running is a

solitary sport but for me it's it's my

primary social outlet it's where I meet

my friends it's where I uh you know get

together and and catch up on the week on

an easy run so it's like I think that's

true for a lot of people who once you

get into that 50 miles a week not for

everyone but for for a lot of people

it's a social element it's it's

pleasurable it's a stress reliever so it

it goes beyond the the you know if

you're if you take that away um I'm not

sure it it Nets out as positive

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