How To Charge For Design & Creative Work (Full Sales Masterclass & Roleplay)

Summary

In this insightful video, Chris Doe delves into the intricacies of pricing strategies, emphasizing the importance of understanding the client's business goals and challenges. He advocates for value-based pricing over hourly rates, highlighting the need to shift focus from time spent to the value provided. Chris shares his personal experiences and insights, discussing the impact of pricing models on business growth and the art of engaging in meaningful dialogue with clients to uncover their true needs. The video serves as a guide for creatives to navigate the complex world of pricing with confidence and strategic thinking.

Takeaways

• 📈 Understand the importance of pricing strategies and their impact on business growth.
• 🤔 Be open to learning and applying pricing strategies in the real world.
• 🔄 Recognize the three scopes of pricing: time-based, project-based, and value-based pricing.
• 🚀 Embrace value-based pricing to focus on the value provided rather than just the time spent.
• 💡 Know when to pivot from one pricing model to another based on the problem at hand.
• 📝 Ask the right questions to diagnose a client's needs and goals.
• 🔍 Conduct thorough research on the client's business before engaging in dialogue.
• 🤝 Approach client interactions with the intention to serve and provide clarity, not just to sell.
• 💰 Understand that premium experiences and branding require significant investment across all touchpoints.
• 🔄 Be prepared to adjust your pricing based on the client's willingness to invest in their business.
• 🧠 Develop a mature and self-confident mindset to effectively navigate sales conversations.

Q & A

What are the three scopes of pricing mentioned in the video?

The three scopes of pricing mentioned are time-based pricing, project-based pricing, and value-based pricing.

Why does Chris advocate for value-based pricing over hourly pricing?

Chris advocates for value-based pricing because it shifts the focus from the time spent to the value provided, allowing for a more fair and potentially profitable pricing model.

What is the main challenge of implementing value-based pricing?

The main challenge is understanding the unique value each customer places on the product or service, as it requires a business dialogue with the customer to determine what they value differently.

How does Chris decide which pricing model to use in his career?

Chris uses all three pricing models depending on the specific situation and what is advantageous for both him and the client, recognizing that no one solution works for all people at all times.

What is the importance of understanding the client's business and goals before pricing a service?

Understanding the client's business and goals allows for a more accurate and fair pricing strategy, ensuring that the service provided aligns with the client's needs and the value they expect to receive.

What does Chris mean by 'selling time' in the context of pricing strategies?

In this context, 'selling time' refers to understanding the value the client places on their time and how quickly they need a solution, which can influence the pricing based on the urgency and importance of the service.

Why is it important for creatives to avoid selling units of time when the outcome is more important?

Selling units of time when the outcome is more important can limit the earning potential and not capture a fair percentage of the value created, as the focus should be on the transformative impact of the creative work rather than the time spent on it.

What is the 'ICE' acronym mentioned in the video, and how does it help in understanding a client's needs?

The 'ICE' acronym stands for Impact, Challenge, and End Goal. It helps in structuring the conversation with the client to understand the impact of the solution on their business, the challenges they are facing, and the ultimate goal they want to achieve.

How does Chris approach a client who is unsure about their pricing strategy?

Chris approaches by asking a series of diagnostic questions to understand the client's business, their goals, the challenges they face, and the potential solutions. This helps in determining the most appropriate pricing model for the client's specific needs.

What is the role of personal development in effective pricing and negotiation?

Personal development plays a crucial role as it builds confidence, self-awareness, and the ability to approach clients from a place of service rather than desperation. This mindset helps in conducting business in a way that is attractive to clients and leads to more successful negotiations.

Outlines

00:00

🎥 Introduction to Pricing Strategies

Chris Doe starts the video discussing the importance of pricing strategies and acknowledges the request from MO for more content on this topic. He promises to cover various aspects of pricing, including high and low ends, role plays, and actionable steps. Chris emphasizes the importance of being open to learning and applying the strategies in the real world. He also addresses the concern of why he shares content for free and asks viewers to subscribe to the channel to show their support.

05:01

📈 Understanding Pricing Scopes

The video continues with Chris explaining the three scopes of pricing: time-based, project-based, and value-based pricing. He discusses the context of each pricing type and shares his personal experience with value-based pricing, highlighting the importance of focusing on the value provided rather than the time spent. Chris advocates for using the right pricing methodology for the task at hand and shares his approach to pricing in his career.

10:03

🤔 Evaluating Pricing Models

Chris and MO explore the indicators for choosing the right pricing model based on the problem at hand. They discuss the importance of understanding what is being sold, the units of measurement for effectiveness, and the scenarios where selling time makes sense. They also touch on the misconception that more time equals higher quality and the importance of considering the value of time for the client.

15:03

🕒 Selling Time and Value

The conversation shifts to how creatives should consider selling time in relation to the client's value of time. Chris explains that the more valuable a person is, the more they are willing to pay to buy back their time. He uses examples to illustrate how time can be a non-renewable resource and how creatives can leverage this understanding to price their services effectively.

20:05

💬 Asking the Right Questions

Chris emphasizes the importance of asking the right questions to understand the client's business, their challenges, and their goals. He introduces the acronym 'ICE' (Impact, Challenge, End Goal) to guide the conversation and extract valuable information. Chris also discusses the balance between research and intuition when preparing for client interactions.

25:05

📝 Preparing for Sales Calls

The discussion focuses on the preparation required before engaging in sales calls. Chris suggests a graduated scale of research based on the individual's experience level. He advises against making assumptions and emphasizes the importance of asking open-ended questions to uncover the client's real problems.

30:06

🔄 Addressing Business Problems

Chris and MO role-play a scenario where a client needs a new brand identity and logo design system. They discuss the business problems this could solve, such as attracting the right leads and aligning with the company's status. Chris questions the client's readiness to invest in the entire brand identity system, not just the logo, and highlights the importance of understanding the client's commitment to the premium experience.

35:08

💸 Understanding the Financial Commitment

The conversation delves into the financial commitment required for a comprehensive brand identity system. Chris explains that while the client is prepared to spend a mid-five-figure amount on the identity design, the total investment could range from $250,000 to $400,000. He stresses the importance of aligning the client's expectations with the actual costs and ensuring that the investment is spread across all necessary touchpoints.

40:09

🤔 Reflecting on the Conversation

Chris and MO reflect on the role-play conversation, discussing the importance of not selling oneself too aggressively and instead focusing on being an advocate for the client. Chris shares his approach to questioning the client's logic and assumptions, and the need for clients to be self-aware and confident in their business decisions. He emphasizes the value of being genuine and caring for the client's needs over making a quick sale.

45:09

🌟 Personal Development in Sales

The conversation concludes with a focus on personal development in sales. Chris stresses the importance of being in a state of abundance and not desperation when approaching clients. He advises on how to conduct oneself with confidence and stability, and how to genuinely care for the client's needs without being overly eager to sell. Chris also touches on the philosophy of serving the client and helping them gain clarity on their goals, regardless of whether it includes your services or not.

Keywords

💡Pricing Strategies

Pricing strategies refer to the methods businesses use to set the selling price of their products or services. In the video, Chris discusses various pricing models such as time-based, project-based, and value-based pricing, emphasizing the importance of choosing the right strategy for different business scenarios.

💡Value-Based Pricing

Value-based pricing is a strategy where the price of a product or service is determined by the value it provides to the customer, rather than the cost to produce it. Chris advocates for this approach, explaining that it can lead to a fairer reflection of the value created for the client, as seen in the discussion about the impact on the client's business.

💡Mind Space

Mind space refers to an individual's mental state or mindset. In the context of the video, Chris emphasizes that the effectiveness of pricing strategies depends on the right mind space, suggesting that a positive and open mindset is crucial for learning and applying new concepts.

💡Subscription

A subscription is a business model where customers pay a periodic fee to receive ongoing access to a product or service. Chris mentions the importance of channel subscriptions as a metric of value, indicating that a low subscription rate can be a concern for content creators.

💡Creatives

Creatives, in this context, refers to individuals or businesses involved in creative industries such as design, art, or content creation. Chris addresses creatives directly, discussing their pricing challenges and the need to transition from time-based to value-based pricing.

💡Scope of Work

Scope of work defines the extent of services to be provided in a project. Chris discusses the importance of understanding the scope when determining pricing, whether it's fixed or variable, and how it affects the pricing model chosen.

💡Business Dialogue

Business dialogue refers to the communication between businesses or between a business and its clients. Chris highlights the need for a business dialogue to understand the client's needs and the value they place on the services provided, which is essential for implementing value-based pricing.

💡Earning Potential

Earning potential refers to the amount of income that can be generated from a business or investment. Chris discusses how using value-based pricing can increase earning potential by capturing a fair percentage of the value created for the client.

💡Pivot

To pivot means to change direction or strategy. In the video, Chris talks about the need to pivot the current pricing model based on the problem at hand, indicating flexibility in business strategy to better serve the client and the market.

💡Outcome

Outcome refers to the result or effect of an action or decision. Chris emphasizes the importance of understanding the client's desired outcome to provide a solution that aligns with their goals, which is a key aspect of the diagnostic approach to sales and pricing.

Highlights

The importance of understanding the right pricing strategy for different business scenarios.

The three scopes of pricing: time-based, project-based, and value-based pricing.

The shift from hourly pricing to value-based pricing for creatives.

The impact of pricing methodology on business growth and profitability.

The necessity of being in the right mindset for effective learning and application of pricing strategies.

The value of offering free content and its relation to subscriber engagement.

The importance of understanding the client's business and their unique value perception.

The role of dialogue in uncovering the true needs and challenges of a client.

The concept of selling time back to clients and the value of time in business transactions.

The significance of asking the right questions to determine the appropriate pricing model.

The importance of understanding the client's business goals and challenges before proposing solutions.

The role of personal development in effective client communication and negotiation.

The concept of being an advocate for the client rather than just a service provider.

The importance of not being desperate in business negotiations and maintaining a balanced approach.

The value of being honest and transparent with clients about the potential costs and outcomes of their decisions.

The role of personal confidence and self-awareness in conducting business conversations.

The importance of aligning client expectations with the reality of what can be achieved within their budget.

Transcripts

hey what's up beautiful people it's me

Chris doe here on the channel and guess

what surprise surprise we have another

video about pricing and pricing

strategies cuz my friend MO says we

haven't done this enough kill me now

already but here's the thing I promise

you if you watch some of our other

videos about pricing strategies and

you're still left confused well guess

what we're going to go deeper we're

going to go high we're going to go low

we're going to do role plays and I'm

going to give you some clear actionable

steps and none of this will work if

you're not in the right mind space but

the first thing you do is open yourself

up to learning this and then thinking

through it to see how you would apply

this in the real world I know all of you

who are watching this are a little

suspicious as to why I'm making content

for free and laying all my cards on the

table unlike so many creators that you

see out there who are keeping the good

stuff behind a gated pay wall I want to

ask you for something my team has told

me that less than 50% of the people who

watch these videos actually subscribe to

the channel and it's one metric that we

care about and it's a measurement of

value to you so do me a favor go ahead

and hit subscribe right now and then

enjoy the rest of the video I want to

get right into it um I'm going to give a

brief summary of some of the things that

I've personally learned from you and

what I've seen you teach so people have

context to exactly what we're talking

about many creatives when they get into

the business there's usually three

scopes of pricing and you guys can go to

this video that he breaks down each

pricing type but there's time based

pricing which is basically charging for

your time Project based pricing where

you're mapping out how much a project is

going to cost for you internally and

then giving the client a rate that has

some buffer for you to make a profit and

then there's value based pricing which

is pricing based on the value that you

are creating for the client or

respective Prospect Chris you've been a

huge advocate of value based pricing

over hourly raids I want to understand

why you say or why you advocate for

creatives to transition to Value based

pricing there's a specific line that you

said and I'm literally quoting you from

a video you said you have to to shift

your focus from the time spent to the

value provided how has this approach

impacted your business and why are you

such an advocate for it I'm an advocate

for using the right pricing methodology

for the for the task and so if we were

like I only have one Ty phase I would

use one Tye phase for the rest of my

life and then you're limiting yourself

to whatever else you need to express and

this is just a challenge of expression

there is a time and place to charge

hourly there's nothing wrong with

charging hourly except for when you when

that's the only tool that you have for

all itions I'll tell you when that makes

sense when you have fixed scope with

variable scope and you don't and you

can't for whatever reasons you can't

determine what the variable scope is

going to be so you can come up with a

fixed fee and what when we describe

Project based fees it's not figuring out

what your costs are and then doing a

markup a fixed fee bid or Project based

thing is basically I'm going to

guesstimate my cost my profit and some

value to the client but basically I

promise to deliver a product project

under this budget or on this budget and

it can have a relationship with a time

spent or it can have no relationship

whatsoever but it's basically saying I

guarantee this deliverable based on this

price unless you change scope and

there's a time to use that as well and

so in my career and I still do to this

day I consistently still use all three

pricing models so I just want to put

that out there in case people are like

well easy for you to say or it doesn't

work for all things no one solution

works for all people at all time so it's

good for us to know when it's

advantageous for both us and the client

to change the model based on the problem

at hand value based pricing is the most

difficult one to understand and to

implement and there's a reason why is

because you have to have a business

dialogue with your customer each

customer is different they value things

differently it's also coincidentally

ironically the most fair pricing model

because it could mean that you're going

to price something a lot more and

something a lot less because the

pendulum swings both ways so we need to

understand that right when you

understand that then then you can say

like well designers creative people who

create transformative experiences for

people who can actually increase the

value of a product because it's designed

well the packaging of it looks good it

connects with its core audience then

that is a value that you're creating

beyond the materials and the timing

which you put into it and so in this way

if we're going to use an hourly based

pricing model when we know what the

scope is going to be we're going to

limit our earning potential and we're

not capturing some Fair percentage of

value created and that's what we need to

focus on you mentioned something in the

middle of that where depending on the

problem that you're solving you have to

decide if you need to Pivot the current

pricing model that you're using what are

some of the indicators that you look for

for deciding what pricing model to

choose if if I'm if I'm like a designer

that's trying to figure this out like

what should I pitch or what should I

discuss with this person what are you

looking for there to be able to make

those decisions you can ask yourself a

couple different things what are you

really selling what units will we use to

measure Effectiveness are we saying

we're selling time and some things make

sense to sell in units of time are we

selling in units of product when we do

Project based pricing that's what we're

talking about are we going to sell units

of value what is a value to the person

and depending on the scenario the

situation of what you're trying to do

the answer is going to be very different

most people that we know in the creative

space default to selling units of time

when time is not a good measurement and

I'll give you some several examples

let's let's ask our audience this

question Mo in what situation where you

desire a solution where taking longer is

worth more to you because that then it

would make a lot of sense to sell units

of time in what situation is it worth

more to you for something to take longer

when you desire a solution I can't think

of too many so for example I'm at at the

airport I'm waiting for my ride ride

share Uber lift something like that a

Yellow Cab do I feel like I should pay

more for waiting or pay less for waiting

and if you're like most rational people

and and it's evidenced by the app itself

the ones that pick you up faster that

get you there in luxury and style will

cost more and so if you say okay well I

want to order something I bought a new

pair of sneakers I wanted them to get

here will I pay more or less for it

arrive here

sooner will I pay more or less to jump

the line at Disneyland will I pay more

or less to jump the line at a hotel or a

restaurant so in those instances if you

sell units of time then you're going

backwards it doesn't make

sense I'm actually having a hard time

when I desire a solution where I want it

to take longer and I'm saying this very

earnestly like Mo can you think of a

time when you want a solution and you

want it to take longer not off the top

of my head right now because if I'm

somebody who's looking for a solution

that means I'm in a state of pain and I

want it resolved and the more time I

spend in the pain the more suffering I

experience so I rather have it done

faster yes there is one instance I can

think of for a couple say quality time

you want to spend time with your boy

that's a solution or an outcome you

desire and you would rather spend higher

quality time and more of it with your

with your child that's just the way it's

going to work so there's certain things

where it's not the outcome it's the

journey that matters and for the things

that the Journey matters we would prefer

to take longer here's the example I want

to get on Disney's latest theme park

attraction ride I want that that result

I don't want that ride to last 10

seconds I want it to last three minutes

or 30 minutes or however long you want

it to ride and so there are things that

we enjoy the process of doing more than

the outcome so are you saying that if

you are selling an experience and that

experience has a positive quality to it

in the experiencing of it that's when

you should think about okay time is your

friend here but when we're talking about

it in a business sense as you've

mentioned if you're solving a problem

depending on what it is that you're

selling it's probably in your best

interest to eliminate time as the metric

of how you're pricing your situation yes

I would even put in the word business

because there's a lot of things that are

not business related when the outcome is

important for us that we want to pay

more for a faster result I'll give you

an example if your plumbing explodes or

you're without hot water you want

someone to come out that's not a

business that's just a personal human

thing I'm in a state of discomfort I

would like to have a remedy for this and

if you can get here sooner I pay you

more so here's the problem though

logically we've had this conversation

many times on this channel people can

understand this now here's what they

think there's a false equivalency to

more time equals higher quality and so

now what we're saying is we're selling

quality not outcome but quality is

really debatable and it's highly

subjective and we also know it's not

100%

true because if an artist takes longer

to render a painting does it make that

painting more valuable than something

that takes less time of lower quality if

that's the argument and let's look at it

you've probably undoubtedly seen a bunch

of Renaissance paintings beautiful oil

paintings that are

rendered looks like it's done by a

master trades person an artist if you

will are those paintings more valuable

than a Picasso painting which seems like

it doesn't take a whole lot of time to

draw or to paint is it worth more than a

Jackson Pollock painting in the free

market now I'm no art historian but when

we start to look at postmodernism

abstract expressionism we're going to

find that the those tend to actually get

more money in the open market than these

Renaissance style paintings unless it's

from someone of note but even so I think

the things that break records are the

things that aren't measured by units of

time or quote unquote quality but based

on other factors like Aesthetics or

notoriety or specific technique or

newness novelty they think that just

because they're spending more time on it

that naturally that's going to make it

of higher quality and then they're

basing the high quality as the only unit

of value for the other person it seems

to be that that's the case and that's

the argument that people will make it's

it's not a strong argument but that's

the argument they make so what should a

creat native who is currently pricing

their work actually be looking at to

measure the value of what they do

relative to the person that they're

serving okay and and here's the answer

it's going to seem strangely like

hypocritical you should be selling time

you're wait wait wait what what did I

just miss something yeah you should be

selling time you've been measuring time

in the wrong way you're measuring time

in which you work on it not time for the

client so the person who buys

a service or a product they have some

abstract value of time so let's take it

to the real world again so here I am I'm

about to have a dinner party and have a

bunch of guests coming over and for

whatever reason the oven or the stove

isn't working and I need an electrician

to come out and fix the problem for me

right away given the added urgency the

importance of Who's Coming to Dinner the

social standing I have within my family

or with my guess all of a sudden my time

becomes really important now and I'm

starting to stress out now if I happen

to be a well-to-do person well-off

person then the electrician who can come

here and do the job is going to get a

better tip and I'm willing to pay more

double triple their normal rates that's

the time that matters let me give you a

different example let's say I want to

launch a product and I need an Ecom site

built I know that for every day it

doesn't launch it costs me in terms of

loss opportunity if every day from now

to like say Black Friday or Christmas or

New Year something like that I'm losing

real opportunity to make money so if

you're web developer a designer and you

can deliver a high quality product that

serves my needs but can do it in less

time it's worth more to me and if you

say I'm going to deliver the exact same

site same level quality and conversion

but it's going to take me six months

that's worth less to me so what you're

doing is you're selling people's time

back to themselves the more valuable the

person is the more they'll pay you to

buy back their time because they also

know that time is a non-renewable

perishable

resource you can make more money but you

can't make more time and then in this

case time is money I want to encourage

anyone who's listening whether you're

cleaning around the house right now and

you're listening to this this discussion

for yourself and you're not taking notes

I would rewind the section that was just

said because I'm going to dive in with

Chris on this you said The more valuable

the person is the more money that you or

creative should charge them because

you're buying back their time in the

example that you gave no let's let's

clear that up clear it up the way that

we say this is very important okay the

more valuable or the the higher the net

worth of the individual that's sitting

across the table from you the more their

time is worth to them yes so you're not

buying you're selling their time back to

them so something's going to take a 100

days or 100 hours and if you can do it

in half the time it's worth twice as

much to them so the condition is the

person must value their time and what

you do must solve their problem and if

you can do it faster you're more likely

to get the gig but you should be able to

charge more that's why they've invented

Rush fees or you pay more money for an

expediter now I don't know about you but

I've had the opportunity to be able to

buy real estate and develop property and

when you are trying to get your plans

approved by the city it could take a

really long time so the the contractor

can't start work because we don't have

approved plans and if you build without

approved plans they'll make you come in

and they'll tear it down and they'll

give you a fine and you have to do it

again so now you're losing time you're

losing money and you've wasted resources

because they're not going to give you uh

they're not going to reimburse you for

the materials you've already use that

you have to pull out again so there is

literally

someone that is an in between between

you and the city that expedites the plan

to get it approved they literally walk

your plans over to the city planner and

say I I need a favor Jimmy or Mary I

need you to get this thing signed off

can you review this on a Tuesday and

they get your plans approved faster for

which you pay them some amount of money

so you can get going on

construction that's how time really

works correct me if I'm wrong and here's

what I'm hearing is that the person that

you are engaging with and I'm talking to

the creators that are listening you have

to understand number one who they are

right you have to understand their

business AKA you're s cing out how

valuable their time is to them and then

you have to really assess what's the

risk of them not doing what they need I

guess for a lack of a better term fast

so as a creative I think you've had

enough reps in the game to where you can

have a conversation and sus this out

very quickly but how do I approach a

prospect to really understand who they

are understand their business understand

the associated risk so I can then come

to the conclusion that oh this is what

they need and this is how I should price

it in this way Mo ask a question how do

you approach understanding a client's

business who they are and the risks that

are involved so you know how to price

accordingly right ask a question oh that

is wait that is I was playing around

with you that's the answer so what we

want to do is we want to the the answer

is the question you just need to know

how to ask the question and so you've

seen many videos on this where I ask

people questions and like oh it seems so

easy when you do it because my intention

is to find out what the real answer is

so if you come to me with a problem I

just want to know what the problem is so

I'm like what's the problem what's the

goal what are you trying to do why

haven't you been able to get this before

so you can follow a very simple

framework let me try to make this super

easy for everybody you need to know what

the outcome is that they want it's not

what they want you to make but what's

the ultimate goal what's driving this

request so if somebody wants a website

it's not because they want a website so

if you're bidding on a website you've

missed the point the website is to do

something that's to communicate

something it's to sell an idea sell a

product it's to create awareness around

something so you need to figure out what

the objective is the website is just one

vehicle to deliver the potential result

there which we don't always know what

the best vehicle is until we have a

question so now you know what the goal

or the outcome is then you have to ask

well there must be something that's

getting in the way of this there's a

challenge involved here you don't know

who to talk to you failed in the past

maybe the copywriting is wrong or maybe

the whole strategy is wrong we got to

figure that from them so what we do is

we just ask more questions so in the

past have you tried to do this no we

have not yes we have and it didn't work

Why didn't it work tell me more about

that well we went in with the wrong

assumptions about who our customers are

we overpriced the market we underpriced

the market or we entered in a time in

which there was some kind of controversy

around this product but now there isn't

anymore we need to know we need to be a

detective we have to ask questions we

have to be Diagnostic in our dialogue so

now we know what the goal is we know

what the challenges

are then we have to ask other questions

what impact will it have on your

business if this problem were solved

they get to tell us at this point and

now you can see we're getting a lot of

really useful information we're surfing

we're surfacing the deeper issues and

now we can get to a real point of

understanding their business goals and

their needs and their challenges and

what the potential solutions could look

like and then we owe it to ourselves and

to the client to say based on what I

just learned there are two or three

things that come to my mind that could

possibly solve this each has a set of

pros and cons let's discuss is that

interesting to you they you say yes you

go through a b and c and you ask them of

these three options which seems most

appealing to you or some other option

we've not talked about they say option b

option b sounds like low risk or you

know what we have more money than we

have time I like option C let's spend

the most amount of money because I just

need to get this thing done are you the

person who can deliver that so you just

do this in the form of dialogue by

asking smart questions listening and

following up with people I'm G to push

back and you know me and you have done

this dance countless times for the

length that we've known each other but

before I push back on this on behalf of

the audience you know I love a good

acronym and you'll be dropping gems so I

just want I'm gonna I'm gonna turn this

question formula into a quick acronym

for the guest okay and the acronym is

ice cuz Chris is always fresh to death

and he keeps it icy so when you go into

these sales you got to think of yourself

like how swole is your wrist how icy is

it number one and not in any order but

just to remember the acronym impact

what's the impact that what you're going

to do is going to have on this person's

business is challenge what's the

challenge that they're facing right now

that's getting in the way of the E which

is end goal what result do they want to

have happen What goal do they want to

reach so if you're ever stuck and you're

like I don't know what questions to ask

I don't know how to run this just try

your best to remember the acronym ice

I'm sure by the end of this video Chris

is going to reward it re remaster it

that's what we do when me and him are in

the studio which is completely fine so

let's let me table that I've been I've

been in many workshops with you I've

been on many coaching calls with you and

I'm a student of yours and here's where

old me kind of flares up when you say

well go in like you don't know anything

right just be curious ask a bunch of

questions I think you're great at that I

think that could be very nerve-wracking

for people especially creatives that

maybe are early on or maybe haven't had

a lot of exposure to sales calls do you

recommend and if yes any type of prep

work that the person should be doing

before they get into this call so they

can ask these questions effectively

because there's knowing what questions

to ask but then asking them effectively

for the other person to give you what

you need so what are your thoughts on

that just for the record if you play

back the tape I never said go into it

with no information you just made that

part up so I just want to be clear here

so let's look at this as a graduated

scale so if you're new in your journey

you need to do a lot of research you

need to do a lot of preparation if

you're more senior in your journey

you'll notice that you do less research

and there's a reason why you want to do

it this way so let's assume everybody

who's watching this video is fairly new

in their journey in terms of

understanding how to be Diagnostic in

their dialogue so you need to do some

background information you just need to

look them up figure out what their

business is about see if you you

understand it read the literature that

could be on their website look at their

social channels so that you're getting a

sense of their business you can even go

into things like what is it glass door

and and read the reviews and how people

feel about the company you can go on to

Amazon read the reviews their products

or their services you can perform some

benchmarks on their website and just

scrape data and you don't want to go

into there as a know-it-all but just so

that you don't seem totally ill prepared

for the conversation but then everything

else stays true in Kevin dy's book

Socratic selling he talks about this no

amount of research that you can do will

get you the kind of information that you

can get if you just speak to the

decision makers they have the up-to-date

stuff they have the real stuff you just

have the publicly available information

so it's a dangerous game to assume if

you go in there like I looked at your

site Cent just hold on a second I looked

at your site and looked at conversions

below average and you just go reading

them whatever it is you research and

like well I'm here to talk about hair

andcut and you're talking talking about

this it makes no sense so don't start

the party without the

client ask some questions and don't ask

leading questions either now people

always say well how do I know it's a

leading question because it presumes an

outcome it's very directed There is a

sense of judgment on it is your website

working for you well You' made a

presumption that I I want to talk about

my website and that you're also by

inferring is it working for you that you

don't think it's working you should ask

a much more open-ended question because

we're looking for the real problem and

only with the client's help can we find

the real problem so we use a bit of

research and then intuition and being

great at asking questions and listening

demonstrating a ton of empathy is how we

really find what the real problem is so

I found that the more information I go

into the meeting with as a person who's

further along in their Journey more

senior than you is that I find that when

I learn too much it starts to Cloud what

it is I'm looking for it's almost like I

read the case File before arriving on

the scene of the crime and I'm starting

to make a lot of assumptions about

What's happen when I really just need to

show up and take in the information

while in the back of my mind knowing

that it plugs into some data or some

research I've already done so you're

still here and guess what you didn't do

what I asked before and that's why I'm

back invading and interrupting your

enjoyment of this video you're still

here go ahead and stop the video and hit

subscribe and I'm out of your hair yeah

so in a situation where your prospect

has identified they need a new brand

identity and logo design system you've

determined is what they need and you've

determined that it solves a business

problem what business problem did that

solve um the way they show up is not

representative of how good of a business

they are it feels in congruent with

their marketing it's not attractive

enough for the kind of client they need

so they're not getting the right leads

in the door cuz maybe they look cheaper

than they actually are and they're in

producing a new line of things where

this extended brand identity is helping

them launch this stuff easier and make

sure that everything is cohesive as it

goes out it sounds like everything

you're saying is what they have

currently is misaligned with what they

like from status to attraction to leads

to product launch awareness Association

they want to change it are any of these

things quantifiable from a business

metric I get the dance we're doing now

I'm the client I feel like I'm feeding

right into your hand is this is this

happening right now is this meta right

now is this what's going on yeah if

we're not attracting the right person

then person that we want which on

average pays us this much is not coming

through the door so we're not hitting

the revenue markers that we want to hit

do you think your money is better spent

investing in copyrighting and marketing

funnels and marketing programs than it

is in brand Identity Design if your

whole point is to attract more customers

do you think by

changing the identity that that's going

to do anything I think the copyrighting

and the marketing and how it's presented

needs to be aligned with the brand

identity that's important to me or else

we're just going to look like the quick

marketers they a clickfunnels landing

page with a lot of text and it doesn't

really speak to our culture who we are

and who we serve so I I do think

important I do want to say this I would

love nothing more than to design a brand

identity system for you however I just

need to check check in with you to say

like in the real world do you buy

products that you love from companies

that are very valuable where they're

logo and identity system is trash that's

an excellent question I would say yeah

sometimes can you name more companies

where that's true versus false or can

you name more that it's where that's

false versus true where they're valuable

company and their Identity Design is

terrible more cases where it's true or

more cases where that's false probably

more cases where where it's false as I

think of my own shopping Behavior and

the longevity of who I buy from I'm an

iPhone user The Experience from top to

bottom from when I get on the website or

when I go to their desk in the shop to

the packaging I think it is important

how many companies that can you name

that are on the Apple level experience

that you're talking about would should

you go down the list with me not many

probably probably not so I already know

the answer to this question is because a

lot of people associate a solution with

what they want and they don't actually

take the time to actually check in

whether or not the market validates this

or not I'll give you a couple examples

the Hilton Hotel you love their logo and

identity system I could care less about

it actually right valuable company very

much so Marriott yeah Norwegian Cruises

we can just go down the line and in fact

there are many companies which their

logo identity is terrible but it doesn't

seem to matter so I would hate for you

to spend money building something in

hopes of a achieving a certain result

when that's not likely going to happen I

care a lot about Identity Design

packaging customer experience but then

we have to say that that's what matters

to us and not because we're trying to

attract new customers because there's

probably safer bets that'll get you a

more likely outcome than it is to spend

more money in doing brand Identity

Design but there are two other things

that you mentioned which is status

there's a feeling here and you don't

want to feel like a subpar brand you

want to feel like a premium brand

and the next is you're you're making new

products and you need to launch things

and maybe the old Identity Design is

attached to certain feelings and

associations that are no longer relevant

to this company you've outgrown the old

container and to get a fresh start you

need to change identity if that's the

case then a logo might serve that

purpose really well it's giving yourself

a makeover so you can start fresh often

times when a company is inherited by the

children of the founder they want to put

their stamp they want to change things

they're going new bold Direction they

want to make it more modern and

Innovative they want to switch verticals

that's a good time to change the name

and the logo is that the case here the

more you explain it that is definitely

the feeling that I have and the desire

that I want and where we're at as a

business so one is a feeling based and

it's hard to quantify that but let's

just put that aside for a second and the

other one is because we need to

reposition that's a marketing function

and for sure you need a new identity to

reflect that nothing gets depressed

talking more than when you start to make

some changes like the identity all of a

sudden people notice right away because

you've you've you've given it a facelift

that's why people remodel restaurants

and and create new identity systems is

this an important thing for you do you

feel like without this it's going to

hold your company back I think it's

necessary right now and I wouldn't want

to put so much work around the launching

of a product the bringing people in if

the experience does not feel right for

client and it doesn't not it doesn't

represent us and the more you ask these

questions it definitely is just a

feeling like I want to be proud with how

we're showing up in the marketplace and

I want to use your language to make the

experience premium and I think the

identity and the logo is a big part of

that I need you to know that premium

logos and experiences don't come cheap

that's why they're premium tell me more

are you aware of that I am well not just

the design the research the

craftsmanship but also in the production

of things the reason why app products

feel that the way they feels because

every component from the plastic wrapper

to the packaging and the friction in the

Box the paper the photography it's all

money and these are all little tiny

signals that are sent from product to

customer that they might not be able to

articulate but they feel so often times

prospects will come to us and say we

want to create a premium experience but

they're not they're not really willing

to back it up and so there's a

misalignment there again you've seen

this too overseas companies who do not

off products or me too products will cut

corners and you can feel the difference

you can see the difference and you can

taste the difference if it's a food

product so you have to be 100% committed

to this otherwise it's going to be

lipstick on a pig as they say are you

committed to it I'm committed to it I

would like to know more of what that

commitment looks like because from what

I'm hearing from you this is not just a

oneandone play this is something that

will probably linger throughout many

different Arenas of our entire business

you mentioned photography you mentioned

product you mentioned packaging so I

would like to know what that commitment

looks like and then it sounds like we

need to have a deeper conversation on if

this is the commitment what is the

investment relative to that commitment

but I am right now committed to this

well you've mentioned the word

experience several times and then we

have to sit down and map out with you

what all is is included in the

experience of something and I don't know

enough about your company to make any

presumption but let's just leave it

where we started which is you want

someone to help you fashion a brand

identity system that is reflective of

the values that you want and you're

willing to make at least conceptually a

financial commitment a product design

commitment an experience design

commitment to see this all the way

through because we're only a strongest

or weakest chain that's where we'll

break so having said that in what

ballpark of money have you prepared in

your mind to spend towards this endeavor

you know with it being something that I

didn't think it would come cheap

relative to what I want to accomplish

definitely mid five figures or something

like this but again I don't know what I

don't know so I am seeking you to kind

of guide me in this Arena if I'm being

transparent so you're prepared to spend

somewhere in the $ 50 to $60,000 range

is that right once that's accomplished

what is the rest of the commitment that

you have in terms of printing production

photography do you have a sense of your

overall budget for design be honest with

you you've opened up my awareness to

what's going to be needed after this

initial deliverable that I was expecting

from this call so I would probably need

a little bit more guidance on that as to

whether that's a communication with you

to discover what that is or if I need to

go back to the team and understand like

okay we're going to need more money

because of the roll out of this after

the identity is so let's talk about this

real quickly this is an aside to

everyone who's paying attention right

now to in order for us to expedite the

conversation I'm going to skip over a

few things when to make some assumptions

that Mo and I have not talked about and

I'm going to enter back into the scene

as if the conversation already happened

okay and if you're interested in hearing

more about that let us know in the

comments we'll take care of that so on a

different episode we will go into detail

this thing so that you can see it in

this excruciating detail and we can do

that now back to the episode all right

Mo given our conversation about your

needs and the skews that you have and

the different customer touch points I'm

going to do a ballpark estimation right

now on top of the 50 or $60,000 you're

going to need to spend on the Identity

Design or what you're prepared to spend

we're looking at another at least

quarter million to $400,000 so somewhere

between 250 to

$400,000 is the commitment that you need

to make on the other things first of all

before we go too deep how does that sit

with you way too much you're going to

spend $60,000 on a logo and you're not

prepared to spend in production for the

all the other touch points that we we

talked about the website the social

media assets the packaging the printing

I'm just getting you prepared for how

much money you're going to spend if you

want to create that experience like I

said you've opened up my awareness to

that being the need I didn't expect it

to be in that high of a six figure Mark

and I'm just saying one business owner

to another if you're prepared to spend

50 to $60,000 on an identity system this

is very much on the low end of the

spectrum here so there's probably some

potential misalignment this why we have

to have this conversation here because

if you actually hire someone like us to

design your identity system system but

you cheap out or you cut corners on the

production the printing your signage and

all the kinds of things that you need to

to make then I think you're wasting your

time and your money and I don't want to

do that to you how would you like to

proceed honestly from what you just said

I may have to let this marinate I'm

completely misaligned with what I what I

think it's going to cost versus what you

just laid out let mean just quickly

explain it to you so you can have the

things to ruminate over okay if you were

to use a new identity system with your

with your existing website it will feel

really weird because it'll feel like you

took a cool logo and you paste it into

your site and nothing will work and

depending on the level of design service

that you're going to use it could be

anywhere between $40 to $80,000 just to

do that alone so when I mentioned to you

$250 to $400,000 you can start to see

given all the different touch points

that we talked about I see at least 10

in front of me which the average spend

if you were to spend on the highend

would be $40,000 per touch point which

is relatively low compared to the

identity system that you're inquiring

about right now and it would be very

hard to produce anthemic videos media

assets to be used for the next year for

anything less than that so there's a

disproportionate amount of money that

you're spending on the logo which you're

not willing to commit through on the

other end talk about the printing budget

and everything else that we're talking

about there's no way you can do this in

my experience does that help you get

perspective on that that the cost per

unit is relatively low compared to what

you're prepared to pay for the logo and

identity system yeah it does it does I

wasn't I think at the at the core of all

this I wasn't prepared to spend that

much out the gate so it's good to know

that that's kind of what's going to be

expected and I definitely have to do

some realigning with what I'm prepared

to do let's take a pause here I want to

explain something to our audience any

company an entrepreneur who's prepared

to spend 50

$60,000 and creating a premium

experience and rebranding has already

committed way over over this amount of

money this is where the role plays

usually break because if you think about

the amount of money they have to have

and the investment they're willing to

make they're not going to sit there and

spend 50 60k on a logo and say let's do

everything else for 5K each it just

won't make sense at all right so this is

why our audience is not able to connect

like oh the role play didn't work it's

it didn't work because Mo doesn't run a

$300 million company and he would know

that when we talk to customers who can

pay this kind of money they'd spend

$250,000 on one video alone one 30

second video they'd spend $100,000 on

making an explainer video for a

conference they're going to use one time

in fact back in the day when we used to

work with gaming companies for their

demos for E3 which is the big gaming

conference they spend north of half a

million dollars to do a product launch

video that is like 30 seconds or a

minute long that's the level which we're

talking about right now so everything is

relative right had you said um we have

$10,000 for logo then I would have

pulled the other numbers down cuz I'm

just using relative scale here that's

why this once in hour it's like it

doesn't make sense to me well no one

would spend 60k and then cut every other

Corner that I know there was a little

bit of intention from me on that and I

know this but I want you to elaborate

what you're doing I heard a few things

that you did but I want you to break

down that scenario I'm going to consider

that that role play ended with me

backing out maybe calling you again

because you consulted me to really think

about what I'm spending my money on

right and wasn't fully in alignment with

my thinking well maybe I shouldn't spend

that much on a logo because I don't have

that much for everything on the back end

but here's some things that I heard from

you you did a lot of unsell yourself so

making me want to say no to you and not

Choose You clarifying my need

challenging my thinking and then logic

testing and I think a big part of how we

got to the conclusion of like dude

you're going to spend 60 but you're not

going to spend 250 on all the other

collateral that you're going to have to

make that's a big test of my logic but I

want you to kind of cuz you're masterful

at this break down what what you did

because I don't want the end conclusion

to be like well Chris has 30 years of

experience that's why he did it so well

so can you just break down what you did

with with me in that role play yeah I'll

tell you the simple way to do it and

then I'll expand on it if you wish I do

wish what I'm trying to do is what

therapists do the therapists is almost

solely reliant on the person in front of

them to tell them the truth and the

truth is is a funny word to use because

true to them true to life true to

reality it can all be true and also be

all untrue so whenever they hear

something and their Spider Sense goes

off they have to say where have you seen

this to be true what evidence do you

have that supports your observation

that's all we're trying to do so when

the client says yeah all valuable

companies have a really amazing Identity

Design system I say well really actually

I think my instincts tell me the

opposite but I don't say that up front I

just say what evidence do you have to be

true and I don't want to use those words

because it seems very challenging for me

to ask it that way so then I say well

based on your experiences with brands

that are valuable how many can you think

of of that have a great Identity Design

system versus how many that don't I

already know this because the world is

ugly it's run by people who have no

taste who hire people have no taste to

make things that are taste less it's

very rare that's why when the client or

the prospect pointed out apple apple is

the easy reference as to the gold

standard if you look at the gold

standard it falls off really quickly

there are tons of companies out there

that have great products that have great

customer relationships that are worth

billions of dollars who have a really

poor Identity Design system true so I

already know that I kind of have a lot

more evidence at least I've been able to

observe that supports the opposit so

when I hear something that's untrue or

illogical or irrational I I just have to

ask is this because you are someone that

does their due diligence assessing these

things so you can be like okay that

sounds illogical or am I jaded to assume

that I don't feel like everybody can

come to that conclusion so quickly where

you're testing that person's logic I

give you the life

hack assume everything that's said and

presented to you is untrue okay and I'll

tell you why not to be a jerk but that's

what it means to be a critical thinker

to be critical of your thoughts what I

assume because when I I've worked with

enough clients now my assumption is

clients are busy they don't spend their

time thinking about the things that I

care a lot about and so they haven't

formulated all their thoughts and

theories on what they need to do on a

visual or design basis they ask for

solutions they don't even know are

connected to Real Results and they don't

use precise enough language and so

that's a lot of reasons why I suspect

nothing that they say is true not that

they're ill intention not that they're

trying to lie to me but they just

haven't had time to think about it my

job my role is to help them think about

it as an advocate for their business and

their goals not as an advocate for

kristo and I think what you're seeing

here is a level of business maturity yes

a level of self-confidence and

self-awareness amount of stoicism and

living by the value of do what's right

for the the client and you may lose the

business today but you'll win the game

tomorrow so let's break this thing down

let's take it to somewhere real personal

between you and me we got off a two-hour

call with the entire content team and

each and every single person presupposes

they have the right solution and the

whole time in which I'm talking I think

they're just mostly just waiting so they

can present their idea versus like what

is Chris really saying what is it that

he wants and how do we check in with him

to make sure this is true and he's

thought this through now I'm unlike most

people in that I actually do think

through what I'm about to say and I try

my best to use precise language but this

is not an indictment on you and anybody

else that was on that call but everybody

I think is just really waiting to say

something not really listening at all

and using their own

unverified observations and opinions to

counter my own opinions you're going to

lose that war every single time but what

you're also going to do is you're going

to increase the friction that you have

with your clients so that's just a

business lesson everybody I don't go in

there saying uh you should do it this

way because I believe this to be true

and you don't know what you're talking

about and you know well my observation

says the opposite and that's

unfortunately just a sign of business

immaturity now it's going to sound like

wait a minute didn't you say you go and

assume that people don't know what

they're talking about and they're lying

to me and it's un yes I do but I'm

interested from their point of view what

their observations are and I would like

for them to share that data with me

versus me coming in saying well I went

through the site and been watching these

shows on the internet and this is what's

that's me entering new evidence into the

case I don't want to do that so if they

say something that's true then I'm more

convicted and confident that this is the

right solution this is an extremely high

level intellectual conversation I think

is about to

like over people's heads I mean I I've

had I've done this multiple times now

and it's still it it every time it blows

my mind because it just makes me realize

how jaded we go into these conversations

How We Do lead with a tremendous amount

of assumptions How We Do lead with

tremendous amount of hunger and ego and

wanting to earn the business quickly

from a place of selfishness and the

whole time and I think this is why

people love role plays between you and I

not to digress and we always see the

comments like Mo if I was in your seat

it would be so much easier I would I

would haggle him and all this kind of

and I'm sitting here like he never

once made me feel like I need to haggle

him if anything he made me genuinely

reflect internally and be like damn I

may not be thinking about this the right

way my logic may not be clear so for me

to quote unquote submit as some of the

trolls say it's like no you were too

easy on him it's like no it's just so

calm and so mirror esque that it's like

oh that sounds very reasonable well I

think you've already highlighted most of

the problems one is maturity maturity

comes in self-confidence ego assumptions

arrogance I would use the word arrogant

because I think what people assume to be

arrogant is not what they do it's like

no that's what other people do but if I

come in ready to prescribe solutions to

you presuming I know a lot about your

business and what your wants and needs

are and that everything I say is true

that's that's a pretty arrogant position

and I ask certain questions thinking I

think I know the answer but I leave room

for them to say something different

right and if they say something

different I'm like oh okay you're right

and if you frame as an open-ended

question they won't feel like you're

leading them so you have no pie on face

and if I say isn't it true you were

there on the night of the fifth with the

the murder weapon and then they're like

no I wasn't I was with my mom like well

you know Poo's on my face isn't it so

but if I'm like so where were you on the

night of the 5th did can anybody

corroborate your whereabouts how do you

know how do you remember that time so

well that seems pretty reasonable I'll

move on to the next question if you go

in there feeling needy like you have a

lack mindset it's going to skew your

questions it's going to change your tone

of voice and you're going to sit there

and think what can I do to get Mo to

sign on the dott of yes so true and oh I

Don't Care What mo asked for I want to

sell sell sell well it seems like Mo

wasn't comfortable with 50 I'll drop it

to 25 right now this creates all kinds

of strange signals to your prospect it's

like wait a minute is this all a game

for you this is my business you just

change prices and scope on the Fly and

one thing that we didn't talk about MO

is what I'm doing I'm not really trying

to unell you I'm just trying to be your

Advocate that's how I felt though and if

we were

strangers and I could get you to tell me

on camera afterwards I suspect and you

can tell me otherwise there's a little

feeling of warmth like like God because

we just want to make sure that people

care about us before we do business with

them and moad asked me this question a

long time ago bringing it up from the

archives here and he's asked me before

Chris how do you show people you care

how do you do that and I turned to Mo I

said Mo here's a dirty Secret because I

genuinely

care it's that simple I don't need to

sell you today in fact I prefer not to

sell you I got enough on my plate now

here's something really interesting I

saw this video and hopefully you can

find it for the cut later there's a guy

I don't know who he is I I feel like

he's Jake the Jeweler Jeweler and he's

giving away an ounce of gold I've seen

this video yes okay it's like these

little tags that he gives out to people

and people are super suspicious of other

people it's like let me see how much

gold I can give away today so he's like

hey do you want a gold do you want gold

they're no no no because they think

there's always strings attached and when

people like no I don't want it he goes

that's totally fine and he says to

camera something like I think this is

one of those things where no is more

valuable to me when they say no so I

have no problem with

rejection when you have something truly

of value like you're literally handing

out gold on the street and people don't

want it you don't feel rejected you feel

relieved but I don't think we internally

believe that what we're doing is

valuable cuz there's so much insecurity

about what we're doing we don't value it

ourselves so it's like when when clients

have a just one pause one moment of

hesitation you crumble and when they say

I don't want that you feel rejected you

feel depressed you feel like you and and

and all the people who have questioned

you are are are are are correct in their

assumption that you're not going to

amount to much it eats at your

soul I don't look at it like that I look

at it like you

know this this isn't a good fit for me

on on multiple planes is not good for me

so let's move on until we find the right

person who wants what I've got and my

solution actually solves the real

problem for them you hear me say this a

lot Mo in our private dialogue you'll

hear me do it in role plays

unfortunately you weren't there when I

was running my service company but you

would have heard it there too it's like

yeah I'm not sure you need to do this

I'm not sure this is in your best

interest and and every time I say that

they're like wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait you don't tell me what to do I

will buy this from you I'm like okay

you're not even doing it as like a cat

Mouse game either cuz there's people

that do do that where it's like I'm

gonna keep pushing you are genuinely

saying I don't think you need this from

me right now I don't think you need this

at all matter of fact not just right now

this is not a good use of your time

money or effort and it's a weird dance

that people just follow whether

relationships sales it's like I want

what I now think I can't have when you

are running around desperate in need of

a girlfriend in need of a client in need

of a boyfriend you're super needing is

very repelling whereas if you're stable

with your business with your life and

you've got things going on you have

other clients that you're working with

you won't feel like you have to sell and

you'll conduct yourself very

differently you have that inner core

strength and stability that then people

will find very attractive so that's

something else that they're challenged

with right because they're in a place

where financially they need work I kid

you not on the daily I got people

sending me messages in my DMs saying bro

I'm totally broke you got to help me

brother you I I just need one thing from

you it's like I just want to delete

those messages yeah yeah first of all I

don't know you and why you coming at me

all desperate like that it's not a good

look this would mean the world to me bro

you need to do this I'm like I don't

need to do jack for you right now I

don't even know

you I don't know you why would I this is

make sense to me very true what I always

find fascinating in our discussion is

the following we come in asking you for

the tactics and you give some of the

tactics the house the scripts the the

prep work all of that but nine times out

of 10 when we're talking about pricing

and negotiation it always falls back on

the personal development side and I know

I just know that when you said high

level it's because we went there and

there's people in the chat like dude

dude give me this script Playbook so I

can value base price accordingly but I

really do believe this is always the

disconnect and the hurdle that people

need to go over because you're talking

about and me and you have done this many

of times even on a personal one-on-one

level you talk about people not being in

a state where they can be abundant where

maybe income is not that well and that's

a very difficult place to be in and

sometimes you have to psych yourself out

because I know when you weren't making

in the bread that you're making now you

were still that guy maybe not as mature

and Suave M like you are right now but

you still had that level of selfworth

the beginning side of this conversation

was here's the Playbook on how to

diagnose via dialogue to then get to a

place of value based pricing you need to

be removed from being the vendor if you

just need to be a consultant and adviser

and make people feel warm but I need to

know if you can sum it up in the way

that you speak so eloquently what does

someone need to do right now that has

been with us for the hour hourong

conversation to get to the mental space

to arrive in the conversation the way

you just described I do want to clarify

once again something you said you you

diagnosed the dialogue those were my

words right you want to diagnose in the

dialogue but I'm not trying to get to

the value based pricing it's a naturally

occurring thing but not always because

most times when people present these

scenarios to me it ends there but it

doesn't need to be there it could be

like well seems like what you need is

for for you to book an hourly session

with me and it's $5,000 an hour and you

say okay great let's do that it's just

not that often that people are coming to

me and asking me for a high Lev coaching

oneon-one situation so I I am not

selling that service so I'm looking for

the problem and finding the appropriate

solution for it sometimes it's me

sometimes not me and I'm looking for the

appropriate pricing model yes so in some

scenarios I'll do a hybrid one I said

why don't we do a fixed fee for the

finite scope and a variable fee for the

undefined scope so we can get started

with something that puts everyone at

ease versus like well I don't want to

spend two and a half months scoping the

project with you only to find out it's

not going to work so in architecture

it's called sometimes design build which

is we design the parts that we

understand we bid for that and we build

those parts and while we're doing that

we're processing permits for the rest

and we just do it together requires a

lot of trust but at least we get going

we can get you in the building faster

and we can respond to the conditions yes

and I'll tell you why this works because

when you're doing a remodel there are

things within the walls and the floors

that you just don't know what you're

going to encounter they design something

based on assumptions but when they rip

things out you're going to encounter new

problems the Plumbing's all messed up

we're going to move this kitchen over

here we're going to move things so that

it's more economical for you and it

won't really impact the design or the

usage that's a new model that's a

different model let me now break it down

for people step by step let's just say

you just jump to this time stamp right

here and you want to be more confident

in be able to talk to a client you want

to you have the desire to be more

business oriented and Diagnostic in your

approach if you don't want to do that

and you want some cookie cutter formula

find it from someone else because it

probably won't work what's that we ain't

the ones or maybe we are and then you'll

find you'll figure it out somehow but I

don't I'm only going to tell you what I

have done and what has worked for me so

first of all you got to just check in

with yourself if you're acting desperate

it'll change your entire approach so

before you even have any kind of this

dialogue make sure your business is in a

place where it's at an equilibrium that

you're not burning so much money that

you're desperate to take on anything

that walks in the door that puts you at

a lower footing in the negotiation

process and it it just changes and it it

skews the perspective of your mind so

get right with your finances go in there

with an open heart do a little bit of

research so you understand some

fundamentals about your client's

business and then ask a couple of

questions and it will sound something

like this what is the goal you're trying

to achieve what is motivating this right

now what have you tried in the past has

prevented you from achieving this what

metrics will you use to measure

success what problem does this solve for

you and the impact it will it make on

your company that's

quantifiable what

percentage of value created are you

willing to invest to see this through

what does doing

nothing impact your business good or bad

if none of these Solutions are

appropriate for solving this are you

prepared to look elsewhere or to do

nothing it's something like that

well those are the questions but if you

don't understand the philosophy behind

the questions what they say you'll be

like a robot you'll you'll like write

down the answer but you won't know what

to ask them next it won't

flow cuz you truly don't understand it

it's to understand vocabulary words but

not to how how to structure a proper

sentence you could understand the words

but you won't be able to use them and

that's the problem and is the underlying

philosophy to enter and exit from a

place of being an adviser the philosophy

can be simpler than that the philosophy

could be you exist to serve the client

to help them gain Clarity on what it is

they're trying to do and to use your

experience or lack of to help them to

identify the highest potential of

success in terms of the path forward

whether that includes you or not help

them get clarity

that's the main thing and don't be

afraid to speak truth to power and do it

in a kind respectful way without biases

and assumptions and you'll do well

that's the

philosophy