This Is What Everyone Gets WRONG About Protein & Building Muscle! | Dr. Stuart Phillips
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, the role of protein in muscle health and the prevention of conditions like sarcopenia is explored. The conversation debunks myths about protein consumption's impact on kidney health and bone density, emphasizing the importance of protein quality and adequate intake, especially for older individuals and those engaged in resistance training. Expert opinions on the nuances of muscle protein synthesis, the benefits of plant-based proteins, and the optimal frequency of workouts for maximizing muscle protein synthesis are also shared, providing a comprehensive guide for maintaining muscle mass and strength.
Takeaways
- π High protein diets do not cause kidney failure or make bones brittle; these are common misconceptions.
- ποΈββοΈ Resistance training is essential for muscle growth, as it makes muscles more sensitive to the protein consumed, promoting muscle protein synthesis (MPS).
- π₯ The quality of protein is important, with complete proteins (like those from animal sources) being more effective in stimulating MPS due to their essential amino acid profile, particularly leucine.
- π± Plant-based proteins can be effective for muscle building, but may require a slightly higher intake due to varying amino acid compositions; combining different plant proteins can help.
- π Protein supplements, such as whey or soy, can be beneficial, especially for convenience or when dietary protein intake is lacking, but should not replace whole foods.
- 𧬠The body's anabolic response to protein and exercise can decline with age, highlighting the importance of consistent resistance training and adequate protein intake as we age.
- π« Extreme protein restriction or overemphasis on protein intake without considering overall diet and activity levels can be detrimental to health and muscle maintenance.
- π Muscle protein turnover is a natural process of breakdown and synthesis, with exercise and protein intake being key regulators; a balance is needed for optimal muscle health.
- π Even in the absence of weight loss, increasing muscle mass can improve metabolic health by increasing resting metabolic rate and insulin sensitivity.
- πΆ Age-related muscle loss (sarcopenia) is a concern, especially for the elderly, and can be mitigated with proper nutrition and resistance training.
- π Vitamin D and calcium are crucial for bone health, and should be ensured alongside a protein-rich diet for overall musculoskeletal health.
Q & A
What is the myth surrounding high protein diets and kidney health?
-The myth is that high protein diets can cause kidney failure. However, the speaker clarifies that multiple meta-analyses have shown that protein does not cause kidney failure, and this is an important point to address as it is a common misconception.
How does protein intake affect bone health according to the transcript?
-Contrary to another myth, a high protein diet does not make bones brittle or weak. In fact, protein is supportive of bone health as bones are partly composed of protein. It's still important to get adequate calcium and vitamin D for bone support.
What is the significance of the amino acid leucine in muscle protein synthesis (MPS)?
-Leucine is a branched-chain amino acid that plays a crucial role in turning on the process of muscle protein synthesis. It acts as a signal or trigger to initiate the building of new muscle, hence its importance in diets, especially for those engaging in resistance training.
What is the recommended amount of protein intake for optimal muscle synthesis, as discussed in the transcript?
-The transcript suggests aiming for about 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is roughly equivalent to 7 grams per pound. This amount is more than the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) but provides a layer of support for muscle synthesis.
How does resistance training influence muscle sensitivity to protein?
-Resistance training, such as weightlifting, makes muscles more sensitive to the protein consumed, leading to more efficient muscle synthesis. It also slightly increases protein degradation, but the overall effect is a faster turnover with synthesis outweighing breakdown, resulting in increased muscle mass.
What is the role of autophagy in muscle protein breakdown, and how can it be regulated?
-Autophagy is a cellular process that regulates protein breakdown by clearing out damaged or non-functioning proteins. It can be upregulated through extended fasting, which helps clean out cellular debris and tightens up the muscle system by promoting the removal of old or damaged 'bricks' in the muscle wall.
What are the two main stimuli that promote muscle protein synthesis according to the discussion?
-The two main stimuli that promote muscle protein synthesis are the consumption of protein-containing food and resistance exercise, such as weightlifting. These two factors work together to maximize the 'bricks' going into the muscle wall.
How does the first meal of the day affect muscle protein synthesis, and why is it important?
-The first meal of the day is particularly important because the system is most sensitive to protein intake after an overnight fast. Consuming sufficient protein at breakfast can kickstart muscle protein synthesis for the day, setting a pattern for muscle maintenance and growth.
What is the 'brick wall' analogy used to explain muscle protein synthesis and why is it effective?
-The 'brick wall' analogy is used to describe muscle protein synthesis, where muscles are likened to walls made of bricks (amino acids). The process of muscle protein synthesis is compared to building and repairing a wall, with new bricks (amino acids from protein intake) replacing old or damaged ones. This analogy effectively illustrates the dynamic nature of muscle maintenance and growth.
How does the discussion view the role of protein supplements in muscle building and what are the recommendations for their use?
-Protein supplements are viewed as a convenient way to increase protein intake, especially for those not meeting their protein needs through whole foods. The recommendation is to choose high-quality, reputable supplements, and to use them strategically to complement a diet that may be lacking in protein-rich foods.
Outlines
π¨ High Protein Diet Misconceptions Debunked
The speaker clarifies common misconceptions about high protein diets, emphasizing that they do not cause kidney failure or make bones brittle. They argue that while protein is important for muscle growth, it's not the sole determinant. The role of exercise, particularly weightlifting, is highlighted as crucial for muscle development. The analogy of muscles as a brick wall that constantly turns over its components is introduced to explain muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and the importance of a balanced diet and exercise for muscle health.
ποΈββοΈ The Role of Exercise and Protein in Muscle Growth
This paragraph delves into the nuances of muscle growth, discussing the importance of both exercise and dietary protein. The speaker explains that while exercise stimulates muscle sensitivity to protein, the actual building of muscle (MPS) is influenced by the balance between protein synthesis and degradation. They also touch on the concept of autophagy, which is the cellular process of breaking down and recycling damaged components, and how it can be regulated by fasting to maintain muscle health.
π₯ Protein Intake and Its Timing for Optimal Muscle Synthesis
The discussion shifts to the timing and amount of protein intake for maximizing muscle protein synthesis. The speaker refutes the idea that there is a strict limit to the amount of protein the body can absorb, citing research that shows higher protein intakes can be beneficial. They also emphasize the importance of the first meal of the day in stimulating MPS, suggesting that a substantial protein intake at breakfast can set the stage for muscle maintenance throughout the day.
π Supplements and Their Role in Muscle Health
This section explores the role of supplements like creatine and omega-3s in muscle health and the potential cognitive benefits of creatine. The speaker discusses creatine's effect on muscle strength and the brain's energy supply, as well as the preventative effects of omega-3s on muscle atrophy. They also address the importance of vitamin D, especially for those living at higher latitudes, in maintaining muscle and bone health.
ποΈββοΈ Resistance Training and Its Impact on Muscle Protein Synthesis
The speaker discusses the impact of resistance training on muscle protein synthesis (MPS), noting that while exercise can increase muscle sensitivity to protein, older individuals may experience anabolic resistance, reducing the muscle's ability to utilize protein efficiently. They suggest that increasing protein intake and engaging in more intense exercise might help counteract this resistance and maintain muscle mass as one ages.
πΆ Age-Related Changes in Hormonal Benefits and Muscle Building
This paragraph examines the changes in hormonal benefits related to muscle building as one ages. The speaker notes that the anabolic drive from hormones decreases with age, making it more challenging to maintain muscle mass. They emphasize the importance of consistent physical activity and exercise to counteract the natural decline in muscle and fitness, especially after the age of 50.
π₯ Coping with Muscle Loss During Disuse or Hospitalization
The speaker addresses the rapid muscle loss that can occur during disuse, such as when a person is bedridden due to injury or hospitalization. They suggest that while younger individuals can regain lost muscle mass relatively easily, older individuals may experience permanent muscle loss unless they engage in targeted rehabilitation efforts, such as resistance training.
π Protein Supplements and Their Place in a Balanced Diet
This section discusses the role of protein supplements in achieving optimal muscle protein synthesis. The speaker advises choosing reputable brands and emphasizes that while supplements can be a convenient way to meet protein needs, they should not replace a balanced diet. They also dispel myths about protein causing kidney failure or bone issues, highlighting the importance of considering overall diet and lifestyle.
ποΈββοΈ The Importance of Exercise Over Diet for Muscle Maintenance
The speaker stresses the importance of exercise for muscle maintenance, stating that it is more effective than diet alone. They argue that while diet is important, especially for weight loss, muscle and fitness are primarily achieved through physical activity. The speaker also touches on the potential benefits of exercise for cognitive health and the prevention of dementia.
π₯ Plant-Based Proteins and Their Adequacy for Muscle Building
This paragraph explores the adequacy of plant-based proteins for muscle building. The speaker challenges the notion that plant proteins are inferior to animal proteins, explaining that while plant proteins may be slightly lower in certain essential amino acids, consuming enough quantity can still support muscle growth. They also discuss the importance of combining different plant proteins to meet amino acid requirements.
ποΈββοΈ Gender Differences in Resistance Training and Muscle Gain
The speaker discusses potential gender differences in muscle gain and resistance training, suggesting that while there may be some hormonal differences, especially around menopause, the overall response to training is similar between men and women. They emphasize that women can also benefit significantly from strength training and that the fear of 'bulking up' is largely unfounded.
π Frequency of Resistance Training for Optimal Muscle Protein Synthesis
In the final paragraph, the speaker addresses the optimal frequency of resistance training for muscle protein synthesis. They suggest that training two to three times a week is likely the most effective for maximizing muscle growth, while also noting that any training is better than none. The speaker also dismisses the idea of using muscle soreness as a guide for training frequency, advocating for a balanced and consistent approach to exercise.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Protein
π‘Muscle Protein Synthesis (MPS)
π‘Leucine
π‘Resistance Training
π‘Anabolic Resistance
π‘Essential Amino Acids
π‘Plant-Based Protein
π‘Bone Health
π‘Sarcopenia
π‘Meta-Analysis
π‘Protein Supplement
Highlights
Protein intake does not cause kidney failure or make bones brittle, contrary to some beliefs.
The importance of a balanced diet with adequate calcium and vitamin D for bone health, in addition to protein.
The concept of muscle building being like constructing a brick wall, emphasizing the role of protein in muscle repair and growth.
The necessity of resistance training for muscle stimulation and the role of protein in enhancing muscle sensitivity to training.
The impact of fasting and autophagy on regulating protein breakdown and the benefits of short-term fasting for cellular health.
The recommendation of 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight for muscle maintenance and growth.
The significance of the first meal of the day in stimulating muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and setting the tone for the day's protein needs.
The potential benefits of higher protein intake for muscle mass, even beyond the recommended dietary allowance (RDA).
The myth that the body can only absorb a certain amount of protein at a time, debunked by recent studies.
The role of protein distribution throughout the day for optimal muscle building and maintenance.
The importance of resistance training in conjunction with protein intake for muscle growth, especially in older adults.
The phenomenon of anabolic resistance with aging and the need to adjust protein and exercise strategies accordingly.
The impact of disuse, such as bed rest or injury, on muscle mass and the difficulty of regaining lost muscle, particularly in older individuals.
Strategies for preserving muscle mass during periods of inactivity, such as hospital stays, including diet and exercise modifications.
The role of essential amino acids, particularly leucine, in initiating muscle protein synthesis and the quality of protein sources.
The benefits of plant-based proteins and the need for slightly higher intake compared to animal proteins.
The effectiveness of protein supplements, such as soy and pea protein, for muscle health and their comparison to animal-based proteins.
The potential for high protein intake to support longevity and health span, contrary to some negative assumptions.
The practical advice on protein supplementation, including the timing of intake and the importance of choosing high-quality supplements.
The role of protein in weight loss strategies, including satiety and the thermic effect of protein on metabolism.
The impact of resistance training frequency on muscle protein synthesis, with recommendations for optimal training schedules.
Transcripts
we've done several metaanalyses protein
does not cause kidney failure I think
it's important to realize that you're
not going to make your bones brittle or
weak by having a high protein diet but
again still important to get calcium and
vitamin D dialed in because they're the
two main bone supported nutrient for
sure but I think people have become very
polarized in their views and it's become
now a battle of philosophy rather than
science but the reality is is that if
you're eating those plant-based things
you just got to eat a little bit more
protein I don't have a horse in the race
and everything but I would have said 20
years ago protein is King it's super
important you got to get it you got to
eat more and now it's sort of like nah
it's a thin slice on top you bake the
cake in other words you make the muscle
by going to the gym by lifting weights
and doing it regularly if you really
want to tweak things then eat a little
bit more protein I'm i' say a little bit
like twice the RDA so 1.6 so it's not a
trivial amount it is more than is
recommended but what it adds is it's a
layer of icing on the cake and that
really pisses people off
steu you have this great analogy
comparing muscle to a brick wall I'll
have you walk me through that yeah um I
don't know if it's a great analogy but
it's one that works um you know muscle
is made up of bricks uh there are 20
Bricks there are 20 amino acids that
make up protein and so you know the
bricks build a wall uh uh I think the
analog is pretty opt because you know
you look at some walls and they're just
built they look great great and then you
know couple years later they don't look
so great and so you think oh maybe I
should take that brick out it's kind of
it's not looking so good and um so you
replace it with another brick you
replace it with a a new brick and that
concept of turning over the wall putting
new bricks in and taking old bricks out
is one that I think is you know it's
pretty opt because that's exactly how
things work in muscle the difference is
is it's not taken out every 10 years
it's taken out um you know one and a
half% of all the bricks every day get
pulled out and and and replaced and so I
have a good friend and colleague named
Luke vanloon who's uh from the
Netherlands and you know he likes to say
you know when you look at your arm it's
a different arm in about 60 days uh from
a muscle perspective and he's fought on
your muscle's completely new um which
you know it's that still blows me away I
think it's um it's a pretty cool feature
of muscle but not just muscle like every
tissue in your body does the same thing
but uh we study muscle so that's the one
that fascinates me well I like the
analogy a lot because this muscle
protein synthesis or
MPS can be a very
abstract term I guess it's it's not so
abstract but it's hard to
conceptualize and I think the brick wall
really puts that into perspective with
the
MPS and the muscle protein
degradation
so you've already gotten into really
General overview but let's get into some
of the new nuances what we want to do to
make sure we're regulating both of those
processes the degradation the building
and the balance between the two yeah I
mean there's there's two main stimuli
that that push bricks going into the
wall uh the first one is you eat you eat
food uh protein containing food um you
know when when you're a kid it's a
little different you've got all kinds of
growth factors and hormones going on and
you're you're growing you know height
wits everything you know and often point
out to people the the period in your in
your life where you grew the most like
Baran was between you know the day you
were born and and year one right you
probably doubled in weight or something
like that like you just you you never do
that again hopefully not when you're an
adult as well um and you know it's the
eating and the consumption of protein
that's putting net bricks into the wall
and they obviously stay there over a
period of time and and the wall begins
to get bigger uh bones begin to get
longer and you know I point out to a lot
of people your bones are actually 40% by
composition protein so they're get
they're getting built up just like a you
know the brick wall of muscle as well
but so is every other organ and your
Skin's getting bigger and everything
else like that so I mean I think that uh
that's a key part of understanding you
know how we going to regulate these
processes it's definitely protein driven
uh the other you know after you're done
being a kid and you're done growing uh
in terms of you know hormonally driven
and growth factor driven growth uh then
is is exercise and you know resistance
exercise or weightlifting is obviously
the primary stimulator for muscle and uh
it promotes and makes your muscle more
sensitive to the protein that you
consume and you you put more bricks into
the wall uh at the same time um it
actually promotes a a little bit more
protein degradation too so the overall
turnover gets a little faster we just
tip the scale in the direction where
synthesis is greater than breakdown and
so muscle mass is going to go up so it's
uh really two things you know outside of
when you're a kid it's it's food it's
protein and resistance exercise not that
not that other forms of exercise can't
do it but you know the further you get
around uh you know sort of endurance is
um then you're not going to make mass as
much as you are you're going to recreate
things inside the wall and that would be
mitochondria and build aerobic capacity
so on one end of the spectrum the
synthesis we have the diet and the
exercises inputs I think it was in the
exercise realm you mentioned degradation
that can ramp up when we're
exercising anything else on that
degradation side of the spectrum that we
want to do to regulate that where my
head goes is aagy and fasting and and
that can be a way of helping
regulate cells that are no longer
functioning optimally yeah so when it
comes to this this Continuum again when
we're talking about muscle anything we
need to do on the degradation realm
other than the exercise itself yeah um
so I'll soapbox a little bit here
because I think that there is you know
there's been a like for a long time it
was all about improving net balance and
so getting synthesis to be chronically
better than or higher than uh
degradation and you can certainly see
that then the then the muscle gets
bigger and bigger and so we you know we
we tried to contrive a number of
nutritional strategies that would
inhibit breakdown uh at least acutely
the way that we could measure it
everybody said look that's better you
get better better net balance when you
think about that um you know it's kind
of like not taking out the trash right
it it's it's letting the bad bricks in
the wall accumulate and you know not not
taking them out and so the you know
what's good about that I mean you're
just just putting new bricks in but
there's a you know a crappy part of the
wall that the bricks need to come out
that's the degradation and it's not
happening so you know and there are
actually several diseases that are you
know distrophy that are related to an
inhibition of protein breakdown so you
need it to happen and in fact the better
scenario is that you're turning over
over the wall fairly rapidly and you're
just tilting the balance in favor of
synthesis so you know let's you know
that's that was the old old school View
and you know we don't want to do that in
no circumstance do we want to block or
inhibit or in any way actually I think
impede breakdown unless you're really
sick and you're in something like an
intensive care unit and and there you
know all bets are off because you're
you're wasting on a on a scale that you
know you will never lose muscle mass as
fast in your life so hopefully that
doesn't apply to too many people
listening but if you've ever been in ICU
or you've seen somebody go in and come
out you know exactly what I'm talking
about um so you know fast forward or
fast forward maybe about a decade couple
of decades and then everybody sort of
the buzzword is autophagy and we're
we're we're now talking about one of the
main processes that is regulating uh
protein breakdown down in the cell and
actually lo and behold uh extended fasts
um are are good because they up regulate
autophagy and and in a sense then it's
like you're you're cleaning out the
garbage you you're taking out damaged
proteins maybe they're oxidized maybe
they're misfolded maybe they're you know
there there's something wrong with them
to the degree that you know we're going
to we're going to break them down and it
kind of if you like my analogy is it
tightens up the whole system so now
systems turning things over very very
rapidly um the key is then you still I
mean unless you want to um you know
practice intermittent fasting or Tim
restrictive feeding or put yourself in a
permanently negative energy balance uh
you don't want to tip the scale in the
opposite direction and and lose muscle
mass unless that's a goal some people in
weight loss are completely happy with
losing muscle but um you know from my
perspective it's a good thing uh for a
limited period of time and even the
people that sort of Advance uh protein
restriction or low protein diets and
enhancing autophagy as a theory of sort
of clearing out cellular debris or uh
essentially like I said getting rid of
the garbage are now saying well you need
a period of refeeding afterwards and you
know I think that that's probably smart
you you need to allow the system to
recover and bounce back and not push it
so so deep so it there's some Nuance to
the argument about why you would do
something to upregulate breakdown uh I
think you can do it for a limited period
of time and it has benefits uh I don't
think uh a lifetime of doing it does a
lot and I'm basing that on nothing other
than we don't have any data in in people
uh we have lots of data in in rodents um
and it definitely extends lifespan I'm
just not sure that that translates over
to humans who are genetically outbred as
opposed to the inbred strains of animals
that are used and we don't live in
controlled environments with no
environmental pathogens and lots of
other things that make me very skeptical
about rodent studies so are you somebody
who practices intermittent fasting I
think I do it but I don't think I ever
thought that it was intermittent fasting
I mean for me I I mean I do it almost
every day right say uh the first thing I
do I get up in the morning and I'll have
uh an espresso a double probably a
double espresso and it's there's no
sugar it's just slam get the coffee and
uh I can sit down I'm my most productive
first thing in the morning so uh and and
then I I I exercise I get my workout in
so it's probably since I've eaten my
last minute because I go to bed I wake
up early so I go to bed pretty early um
it's probably close to I mean it's at
least 12 hours it's maybe even 14 before
I eat another meal so I mean I sent my
sense is that that's a form of Tim
restricted eating but I never really
thought I was doing that until I sort of
read a little bit more um and and then
but then I have a royal breakfast I have
a good breakfast so it's my favorite
meal of the day um so I guess I do it I
but I don't do like a five and two
or some other schemes that people do
um I just yeah it doesn't doesn't really
work for me to be honest with you I do
like to eat well let's take that even
further and talk about that first meal
how much protein do you like to get and
what would that look
like yeah uh it's a good question um
yeah so the game Cher for me for the
breakfast meal which for a long time was
was always a a protein shake or a
smoothie is been Greek style yogurt or
skier um because first uh you know it's
a great source of protein uh second I
like the taste and and third uh you know
it's got all kinds of other benefits not
the least of which is a probiotic load
which you know unless you're trying to
change that uh really doesn't change
unless you you do something and I've
learned from walking across campus and
going to my medical school rounds which
you know we the the hospital specializes
in Pediatrics and gastroenterology so
every other week I learn something about
the microbiome and you know what by
bacteria are good and all kinds of
things and so uh the dirty secret is you
got to keep doing whatever it it's just
changing your microbiotic composition
you can't take a week off and just let
it sit there then it changes again so um
it's generally about uh I would if if I
were to Ballpark Market it's probably
about 45 grams of protein um and I I I
don't have a hard time getting up to
that type of dose just given the amount
that I eat and everything else but it's
got fruit in there as well um it
generally has another coffeee um and
it's got some sort of cereal grain in
there just to you know mix in uh
sometimes there's milk sometimes it's
cafir sometimes it's um sometimes
there's protein powder sometimes there's
not it's just how how I feel and uh yeah
so but it's about it's about 45 G if
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and now back to the show let's talk
about why 45 G what's happening in the
body physiology wise is that a specific
number you've come to that you try and
aim for because of the physiology or is
that just talk about the Nuance there no
I don't think it's not a Target no I
mean you know I I think it would be fair
to say that there's uh I don't know if
the debate is Raging uh but there's
definitely uh some discussion out there
right now about the dose of protein and
so we we I think our group have in
inadvertently uh contributed to the
notion that uh and people say this all
the time and it's wrong so they say oh
well Philip's group and then you know
his buddy Kevin Tipton and olly witard
and a few others they showed that you
can only absorb 20 grams of protein and
I'm like nobody ever said that so you
can absorb a ton of protein like so just
get that out there um but we showed that
you know 20 grams of protein appears to
maximize muscle protein synthesis so I
was always like we should get at least
20 grams of protein if you're bigger you
probably need more if you're smaller you
probably need less and you we thought
the the argument was was pretty much
settled Oliver witard and Kevin Tipton
exactly the same finding um there's
another paper uh MCN who found maybe a
little bit better with 40 grams than 20
grams but the difference is about 15% in
muscle protein synthesis so maybe that's
why I aim for 45 but no I don't I I have
no uh rationale for that but you know
recently uh again uh my friend colleague
Luke vanloon and a PhD student well
actually he's not a PhD student anymore
he's a postdoc Yorn trolin um just study
where they fed people 100 grams of
protein and showed a better response
than 25 grams of protein so you know it
puts to bed the myth which which nobody
and and least of all us said you know
you can't absorb only this how much you
can
use uh is is really the question and you
know they showed I think pretty
conclusively that you can first you can
absorb a lot more uh and second that you
can you can make use of it um and and
and for longer as well well um which is
you know it's kind of interesting so uh
let's just say I I don't really aim for
that that's kind of I you know what I
get uh some days I think it's more other
days I think it's less but um it's it's
easily hitting a 30 grand threshold
almost every day and would it be fair to
say that hitting that 30 grams would be
a Bas line that the average adult would
want to shoot for we're going to get
into a lot of the nuances here over you
know a 12 hour period a 24-hour period
but that first meal of the day depending
who you talk to there is a lot of
importance put on getting that protein
Bolis and that's what I'm trying to pick
out here yeah should your average adult
aim for 20 30
grams or as we broaden out this
conversation is it more just within that
12 hours 24 hours so I think the first
meal is important and and and and let's
be clear like
like with very few exceptions and I
can't even really think of so there's
only a few people that do these
experiments our group is one Luke vanen
lon's group uh Phil aon's group in the
UK uh Blake rasmuson and a few other
people maybe but you know that's kind of
it right and I know all of those people
and we you know we present at
conferences and like we're and we're
friends like we we're good friends so no
animosity at all um almost everybody
does their experiments in an overnight
fasted State because it's metabolically
it's the easiest way to control
conditions not not always like Luke's
group has done some evening feeding
stuff um so let's say it's always a
first meal phenomenon like it's always a
breakfast meal that we're talking about
because you know it's the first thing
that these people eat uh and it's
generally isolated protein as well so
let's be clear about that it's not you
know it's not scrambled eggs and and
bacon uh it it it's whey or soy or milk
protein or or these sorts of things
so but I do think that that first meal
is important and I think Don Layman who
another good friend of mine um would
sort of and then he's the person that
primed me on this concept would sort of
say that's when the system is most
sensitive because you've just fasted
usually for at least 10 hours something
like that maybe shorter maybe longer is
most sensitive to the provision of
protein and you kind of Kickstart and
pattern the process uh he figures and he
may be right on this is that actually
the lunchtime meal is that if you get
protein synthesis it goes up and then
starting to come down the lunchtime meal
just sort of bumps it a little bit but
it's nowhere near the degree of
stimulation that the first meal gives
you um it could be that that third meal
usually dinner time um which is where
for North Americans you get most of your
protein you get another bump um and that
sort of bump continues like for quite
some time depending on how much protein
that you uh consume but the the bigger
picture when you zoom out from looking
at protein synthesis and just look at
you know muscle and lean mass gain
suggests that some of these more nuanced
details that we talk about meal to meal
distribution a few other things are made
far less important than just getting you
know uh three times 30 gram or you know
if you want like round numbers and
they're not round but 1.6 grams per kilo
OR7 grams per pound um you know in a day
and it doesn't really matter how you eat
it you can eat it maybe as if URS work
as
generalizable as one big meal and and
not as you know three small meals which
I would have said prior to urine study
would have been more optimal um but but
nobody's tested that nobody's tested the
one big versus three we've done some
iterations of that and we do find threes
generally better than a few bigger ones
but six smaller ones isn't as good as
three sort of mediumsized ones but the
differences are small I be fair I think
to say all right there's a lot of nuance
there but getting for the
adult who wants to build or maintain
muscle say a middle-aged adult given
where the research is right now would
you recommend to them having a breakfast
with a certain amount of protein to
again coming back to our brick wall
analogy to kick off MPS early on in the
day and start bringing those bricks into
the wall yeah no I think it's a solid
strategy and I also think too is it sort
of
you know I think one of Dawn's arguments
is it kind of patterns everything for
the day and and and I do think that that
first meal like it's kind of a missed
opportunity because you know if the
second meal like isn't the big bump in
protein synthesis you you miss the
opportunity if you have a small amount
of protein and like I can tell you for a
fact I mean I'm the director of a center
it's two floors down from here but um
where when we've looked at the older
women so they be on average they be
about sort of high 60s low 70s years old
uh they get about eight grams of protein
on average at breakfast and most of it
is from is from weak gluten so it's a
poor quality Source protein um and that
that's a missed opportunity to to do
something for your your muscle for sure
so I don't know where middle-aged is
anymore so let's just say that uh it
could be somewhere around 58 or
something like that you know um uh if
you were a 58y old something like me uh
then you should be aiming for yeah at
least I'd say at least 30 Grands at
breakfast would be a good habit let's
talk about that woman hypothetically
taking in only eight grams in the
morning they're not going to likely
stimulate MPS yeah take me through the
physiology there say that's all they
have at breakfast they go through to
lunch say they're again just picking at
things and and getting 15 gr of protein
right let's talk about worst case
scenario and what happens when people
aren't getting that bullus of protein
and they're really not activating
MPS yeah um you know and I can speak to
this from even a little bit less than a
theoretical uh level because we have
some data um that's basically being
analyzed right now uh postto of mine and
um it's it's pretty shocking how
small amounts of protein it might say 10
grams and you oh it's 10 grams of
protein like you know when you look and
it's mixed sources so real meals these
are real meals now um it doesn't even
budge the needle in terms of blood amino
acid levels like they don't even go up
and so it really does speak a little bit
to the fact that um you know the
isolated protein sources first were
always exaggerating the response versus
a mixed Meal which is a little bit less
and something around 10 grams of protein
of you know mixed sources um is uh is a
pretty poor uh stimulator if it
stimulates muscle protein synthesis like
at all um so I think you might offset
breakdown a little bit which is okay but
it doesn't really give you the anabolic
response that you want to kind of uh
continue to uh preserve muscle mass in
those women they'd obviously be on that
sort of the Downs slope of
sarcopenia um so you know the long and
short is if it's eight grams at
breakfast 15 grams at lunch maybe it's
30 grams at uh the dinnertime meal
dinner may be the only time where they
even get a little bit of a bump and if
Dawn's theory about the first second
third meal phenomenon is there um that's
that's not much uh so you haven't hit
that threshold or you have maybe maybe
you've come close once or you've hit it
once and you know you're good then but
that's not the way to optimize the
preservation of muscle or the gaining of
muscle if you're going in the opposite
direction then to get into some more
Nuance on our
hypothetical there's the two different
inputs that we talked about that
stimulate MPS say that woman is doing
resistance
training how is that going to
impact say again as a thought experiment
she's still having very low protein
dietary
but she's stimulating muscle and
stimulating MPS that way is it kind of
do we bring both of those together
to have that threshold breached diet and
exercise yeah
um so you know right off the bat first
thing if you're lifting weights you're
doing something really good for yourself
so don't want to discourage anybody from
doing that or say if you're not doing
the protein distribution you're not
getting that right that resistance
exercise is is you know resistance is
futile to use the phrase um it's not
like it's it's got lots of benefits you
get a lot stronger uh it's good for your
muscles it's good for your attendance
it's good for your bone it's good for
your General Health
otherwise um the they're synergistic in
the way they work uh exercise makes
muscles more sensitive to protein and so
you build more uh the hard part to
acknowledge is as you get older uh
there's a phenomenon known as anabolic
resistance and so that
sensitization of muscle as a result of
resistance exercise just doesn't happen
to the same degree as it did when you
were younger and it has some parallels
with insulin sensitivity um you know if
people understand that concept is that
you know a given amount of glucose
solicits a given amount of insulin
response and then you get a given amount
of take uptake of the glucose into
muscle um same P same principle except
maybe a little bit less driven by
insulin and a given amount of protein
gives you a given amount of amino acids
and instead of them efficiently going
into the muscle and replacing those
damaged bricks in the wall they don't
get in they they just can't get into the
muscle and or if they get in they're not
used as efficiently at repairing the
wall and so you know that's anabolic
resistance or or you or you digest less
of the protein and so that could be
where the barrier is with with um older
people so um you know your hypothetical
theoretical woman is still doing
something good for herself very good um
but she's probably not getting all the
benefit that she could if she had the
protein dialed in and evenly distributed
or she was getting that uh you know
amount that we talked about earlier
across the day coming back to anabolic
resistance as people age is that
affecting both inputs the diet and the
exercise do people as the age need to
ramp up in both of
those talk about the specifics there
yeah um probably yes
um both do tend to go down uh like for
reasons that that aren't fully clear but
you get less of an anabolic response to
exercise and you get less of an anabolic
response to protein so the theory is is
that you know you can you can make up by
eating a bit more protein and and I
definitely think that 1.6 grams per
kilogram 7 grams per pound is that's
generic recommendation that's good
doesn't matter whether you're younger or
older uh from the exercise standpoint
You could argue that you know yeah you
need to do more or need to do more
intense work or anything the the hard
part to overcome is that as you get
older that gets harder and and it
hurts so uh and that's not because of
the soft tissue response muscles are
actually pretty good and repairing
themselves whatever but the connective
tissue response the tendons ligaments
cartilage is um you know that stuff just
it wears out um it's got a poor blood
supply and we just we just can't make it
and renew it as as well as we did when
we were younger um so I think it's
harder uh as you age and at some point I
mean the the you know the mechanism just
begins to tip and and sarcopenia begins
um I think in in Earnest if we compare
the average 50y old that's out there um
to the average 30y old we we could if we
had enough people say that they're
they're already suffering from
sarcopenia they're already losing muscle
they're weaker there are some activities
maybe not that they can't do but that
they take a longer time to do that they
struggle to do or that they they modify
the way that they do them um to include
an an assist because they know that
without the assist they they they
couldn't do it and it's you know so you
know when people say what do you mean by
an insist I'm like well they
definitely need to hold on to a handrail
when they descend a flight of stairs
that's 10 ft wide there there's no way
they would go down the middle of it
because they know that they maybe not
strong enough to do it when they get
into some a car they they have to hold
on to the handle because they just they
don't have the leg strength to leave
themselves and some you know there's
Small Things subtle but they're a sign
um when you resistance train and you
know uh you you slow that down to the
point that it's imperceptible at age 50
uh into your 60s I think you're going to
start to see touches of it I'd be
surprised if there's anybody in their
70s that can say that they operate as
well as they did in their 30s but
there's a few freaks out there so uh
Never Say Never but um it's all about
changing the trajectory of that downward
curve with respect to anabolic
resistance and pushing back as much as
you can again coming back to our two
inputs exercise and protein intake talk
about where somebody needs to really
consider those and start optimizing
those early in the conversation you
mentioned the hormonal benefits somebody
would get at a younger age when does
that start to decline and when should
somebody start to be more cognizant of
what we're talking about today to make
sure that they're optimizing for at
least maintaining if not building muscle
mass there's probably a few
considerations I mean the the growth
aspect of you know when you were growing
and being a kid you know for most of us
growth stops at 18 19 at at the most I
think we enjoy a Heyday in our early and
mid 20s where you know the machine is
still fired up you might not be growing
as much but man you can you can put a
lot of calories in the machine and if
you're a pretty active person it's like
you know you don't gain weight at all
like it just you just burn that stuff
off and then something slows down uh
probably you do less I mean everything
as it ages does less earthworms people
it just happens dogs cats everything and
um you know that's probably part of the
equation but the hormonal benefit is
essentially the anabolic drive from a
hormonal perspective is is not lost but
it's definitely almost gone um and so
now you have to really dial in I mean I
think the big answer is that the most
important of the two not the diet is
unimportant but the the far more
important of the two to maintain muscle
and fitness and you know op optimize as
you said uh your chances is is activity
and exercise so you know keep those keep
those up and don't let them usually
people there there are phases in
people's lives where they just they kind
of give up on activity so you know going
from middle school to high school a lot
of girls just drop out of you know they
they might do the mandatory it's one or
two years a fette and then they they
don't they're they're not physically
active like pretty much again like
that's it uh from high school to you
know if you go to college uh is another
big one where people drop out of
activity programs um people get married
have kids uh it's another you know boom
it's a big drop and how do you find time
Etc so you know it it's about realizing
some of those transitions are probably
natural points where you need to make
physical activity a prior and not let it
not be a part of your life or uh build
it into other activities that you do and
um you know realize that you're still
being Physically Active but you maybe
not are hitting the gym uh but it's but
at a certain point you know I want to
say probably in your late 40s early 50s
you begin to realize that um you're
definitely weaker you're definitely
don't have the
endurance uh and that maybe there's a
few things that you're going to have a
hard your time doing and you know so if
you wanted to you know is there a
turning point uh I'd say you know
there's no turning point you should
probably be doing it the whole time but
uh somewhere in your late 40s if you're
not making a switch if you weren't
active before or if you were doing some
but not a lot you might want to think
about doing a little bit more and making
a little bit more structure and figuring
out a some things you enjoy and then B
some things that you can you can stick
to and um
uh things things get a whole lot better
given the fact that there are these two
different
inputs how much leeway do we have
between leaning into one versus the
other at different phases of life and
where my head goes as I bring that up is
the extreme if somebody's bedridden
because they have some kind of traumatic
injury but we could even come back to
what you're just talking about there
different phases of life is going to
allow for different amounts of physical
activity so we'll start with the diet
piece somebody who for whatever reason
isn't moving their body they're not
getting that
input can they up their protein or just
maintaining protein to the level we're
talking about today to still get MPS
stimulated how much of it needs to come
from the exercise as well and then I
want to hit it from the other side
somebody that's not cognizant of their
protein and this ties back kind of to
what we talked about before the woman
who's not hitting her protein goals but
is doing resistance training but let's
talk about it from both those aspects
and get into some Nuance here okay so my
writer statement right off the bat is in
this discussion because I've kind of you
know mashed this out on social media uh
and taken taken my my licks is that
we're goingon to take the focus off of
like we're going to take off the myopic
lens that everything in life is about
weight loss or weight gain okay and
we're going to just talk about muscle so
that that from that
perspective exercise is hands down the
behavior that you need to adopt and so
if you I you know if you eat Ultra
processed food you go to McDonald's and
all this sort of stuff and I'm not
saying that's the extreme of course and
everybody oh that's terrible and and it
is it is it's not good don't don't get
me wrong but and you are an actor
person um you're going to be much better
off than somebody who's
inactive
and follows all of the protein
recommendations and etc
etc put them both
together you know you're way better off
don't don't get me wrong but but the but
the hands down winner from a health
standpoint from a muscle standpoint and
you know let's you know like I said
weight loss out of the question because
that's energy rebalance and you know a
few people think it's carbohydrates and
Insulin but whatever um exercise is is
the health behavior that you need to
adopt now if you're overweight it's
entirely different if you're overweight
and flat out uh weight is lost in the
kitchen or through your diet um but
muscles and fitness are made in the gym
and the when you look at all the sum
total I think of the
evidence you know most of it
observational admit but in both
directions uh the risk ratios for people
who are physically active in terms of
all and I mean all major metabolic cardi
metabolic as well as can 13 out of 26
most common types of cancers uh you have
a low risk the more active you are
there's probably a dose
response um we know that for sure uh you
can't you can't even touch the degree of
RK reduction uh with just about any
dietary intervention um maybe barring a
few sort of lipid issues and heart
disease and pre-existing risk Etc you
you you can you know you do you do
yourself some good by eating well no
question about it but the physical
activity aspect of things is
really the
core um and I know I'll probably upset a
lot of people by saying that but the
best of all worlds which generally
describes a lot of people that argue
that one or the other is important is is
to do both or or to do both to the
degree that you can you know uh like
there's a lot of talk right now about
about alcohol is it good for you is it
bad for you and everything and I don't
know about you but I do like to have a
beer a glass of wine I I don't drink a
lot in fact you know compared to my my
former self I'm almost a t toer but but
do like to have a glass every now and
again but um so maybe in doing so I'm
I'm shaving part of my lifespan or my
health my like my health span off or
whatever but I do it in the context of
sitting down my family my friends and I
think I don't know I think this is a
pretty good scenario to enjoy a social
drink um so uh you know what what's my
justification for doing that well I
don't know maybe that's why I exercise
that I can you know exercise forgives a
lot of sins and I know people have
credited me with that phrase it's not
mine I think I stole it from Mike Joiner
who's a friend of mine um like all good
things you know they ripped off from
somebody else but uh it really does like
you can even be a smoker and so to give
you the most extreme you know there's a
habit that you know if if you if you're
doing it like your risks for you know
everything blows up but if you're a
smoker and you're active and I get it
there's not a lot of active smokers but
if you are you're even at a lower risk
than than somebody who smokes and does
nothing so if exercise and there's no
dietary intervention that can do that so
I I think it's exercise for if we're
going to really Le lean into one for
somebody middle-age right now and say
they haven't been exercising or at least
regularly let's give them a plan because
there are so many different types of
excise
intensities if they just want to
maintain and maybe build a little bit of
muscle what do they need to do yeah um I
think that there's a few things
first I mean Behavior change
particularly when it comes to Lifestyle
is I'll just you know flat out say it's
difficult particularly if you are
middleaged so you're you I don't know
40s 50s we'll call that
middle-aged um it's difficult and
particularly when it comes I think to a
form of exercise a lot of people uh
first we know from self-report anyway
most people about 70% of probably the US
and Canadian population do not do any
form of strengthening activity and
that's not lifting weights that's
strengthening activities so engaging in
yoga Pilates and lots of other things
that I'm I'm they're they're
strengthening for sure but they're
they're not weightlifting and
Progressive overload that I would call
strengthening activity but uh so you got
to find something you enjoy uh and you
got to find something that motivates you
on some level to continue doing that's
those are you know uh lot of discussions
on social media about lift lighter lift
lower lift this lift that and I'm like
how about we get the 70% lifting that
would be that would be a huge you know
from a public health standpoint huge
change um and so I'm like just find
something you can do and you come back
to doing and I think that that's that's
crucial
right uh
opportunity uh do you have a gym nearby
do you have something nearby do you do
you do it alone do you like working
alone or do you prefer to work in
groups do you have the means to afford a
personal trainer if not do you is there
a why close by um if you don't have the
financial means you know can you can you
afford $50 to get a set of uh resistance
bands because you know programs show
that they work they're they're not gonna
you know you're not going to climb on to
the podium in Paris but you're you're G
to get stronger if you if you're able to
do this and do it consistently so try
and find the intrinsic motivation that
pushes a button that says to you that
this is because most people site they
don't have time I think actually the
real speak behind that
is I don't value this activity enough to
make the time to do it and I think that
that's a that's a you know a nuanced
maybe difference between I don't have
time um but it's it's you know and I
think that's easy it's an even easier
excuse if that's what you want to call
it for somebody to not lift weights than
for somebody because everybody you know
you say go get some more exercise and so
you just walk out your front door that's
easy right um and and you know again
walking is great like you know awesome
great activity um but if you want to get
stronger and I do think as you get
older um you're going to be limited
eventually by your strength and if not
your strength like your power your
ability to you know be strong and do it
and it's getting out of a chair is the
ultimate lift right once you can't do
that you're looking at full-time
institutionalized care or a lot of uh
support around you to help you with your
activities of daily living so find
something you enjoy that's the biggest
thing I think when it comes to power is
that something that people are going to
gain naturally just by resistance
training or is there specific exercises
we want to do uh you probably gain a
little bit of it as you get stronger
just because you know uh Power uh
incorporates force and strength um but
the timing part like doing it fast does
require a little bit of focusing on
doing things relatively rapidly as soon
as you you introduce you know velocity
of movement into an equation it um
there's a safety aspect that comes along
with that but if you talk to older
people it's interesting how quickly they
grasp the the slowness or the quickness
of the activity they generally think
about it in terms of how fast they walk
and then know you just don't move as
fast and and when you begin to train
them and you know even if you train them
in in fast walking as an example um they
get that pretty quickly and so you can
train them pretty quickly to be able to
understand that it's the speed of how
you know doing things that is maybe a
little bit more important than big loads
and and trying to you know press you
know 100 pounds over your head but um if
you can take 10 pounds and a broom stick
and you can push it over your head you
can do it fast that's probably uh a
better form of practice for them you
mentioned the exercise bands and
obviously that's really low barrier to
entry for most people you can order the
money Amazon cost is relatively low but
I want to try and go even lower than
that for the person that's not doing any
resistance training right now to get
them in the habit to get them moving and
and building strength and building
muscle what's the
easiest say 3 to five exercises they can
do at home just using their body weight
you know just air squats maybe push-ups
things like that that they can build off
of over time but just to get them
started here sure uh so it's five I mean
uh there's really only three types of
exercises there's there's pushing so
you're you're pushing something away
from you you're either doing it laying
on your back and that's traditional
bench uh I do prefer the you know older
people at least because very rarely do I
find myself on my back and trying to
push something off it but you know this
sort of thing uh and pushing over your
head so there's a seated press and an
overhead press um there's a pulling uh
exercise generally I I do like the you
know arms above the head and pulling
down so in other words you know a lat
pull down or while you're seeded in
pulling something towards you and you
can easily mimic those sorts of things I
think with with bands or with things
around the house uh if you have a towel
uh even and then as you said like can
air squat right so it's a body weight
squat you're getting up and you're going
down to sort of a comfortable level I
don't need you know ass to the grass I
don't need you know crunching your your
you know basically full coverage of your
hamstring over your calf I don't need
that but
you know that's that's it right um and
if you can do those and cross your arms
across your chest get up and out of a
chair try it five times the next time
can you do six can you do seven can you
do eight can you do you know Etc
progress that way let's come back to our
muscle physiology and talk about
somebody doing an air squat and bring in
the MPS and muscle protein breakdown
what's happening while they're doing
that afterwards and then I want to get
into the Nuance of providing the bricks
at the right time to build that muscle
up yeah I mean we I be kind think before
I do answer this question I mean we do
know uh it's actually a a he's a former
postdoc of mine a guy named Lee Breen
over in the UK whose group did some work
using bands so I and I I couldn't tell
you about body weight stuff but there
are a few I think exercises that or
studies that have sort of used body
weight and and and that sort of thing I
mean it's just about working to a high
level of effort uh I use you know
people's ability to perceive effort as
as a good external indicator of how hard
you're working and so everybody
understands effort I think at a sort of
a global level of you know you doesn't
require sweat or everything but if
you're doing a push-up um you or a squat
you do it to the point where you think I
could probably do one or two more here
but if I do I might I might you know I
might fail I might I might get fatigued
I might fall over I might make it not
safe I might you know hurt something or
another um so I'm G to stop but but I've
just exerted myself and and maybe on a
scale out of 10 where 10 out of 10 is
like red and it's that's maximal I'm at
a nine
and that almost certainly will turn on
muscle protein synthesis so it will
increase the rate at which bricks go
into the wall uh or back into the wall I
mean I think you know remembering that
turnover concept if break down is
pulling old bricks out we can actually
recycle them and put them back in the
wall and in fact we we do that
relatively efficiently um when we're
young we do it extraordinarily
efficiently when we're older not quite
so but the point is um you're you're
improving the recycling of those bricks
and so before we talk about provision of
exogenous protein and stimulating more
uh bricks going in I think that that's
that's pretty clear that'll that'll
happen no question about it to
understand the physiology a little bit
more what if somebody isn't providing
protein through the
diet and they're exercising and not
providing the bricks you mentioned the
Recycled bricks
what will the body do in that case is it
going to pull from muscle and you're
going to start losing protein from the
muscle at that point or how does the
body respond when it's not provided the
raw
materials for MPS so the thought
experiment is you just imagine you have
somebody and all they're doing is
lifting weights and they're not eating
right and I mean I you know it's an odd
scenario to think about but I mean all
it would do is so compared to somebody
who was not eating not lifting weights
they would lose muscle very fast the
person who is lifting weights would lose
muscle but much much slower uh so you're
hanging on to more of your muscle when
you're lifting weights than you are if
you're you know not lifting weights and
and protein is ruled out at the equation
so you know I mean I think you can sort
of take that one to the bank and say but
the best you could do would be 100%
Recycling and abs absolute you know 100%
conservation of all the bricks that came
out all got put back into the wall and
we know that doesn't happen um so you're
going to lose uh some muscle but you're
going to lose it far slower than
somebody who's not lifting weights you
know again to the point of you know if
you could pick something to do what
would it be and it would definitely be
exercise over trying to tweak the diet
which is you know it's a more subtle
um arrangement of the equation so to
speak one of the things you hear is when
you start losing muscle you can't
rebuild that or regain that you can only
maintain what you've what you still have
at that point yeah is there any truth to
that so I think one of the one of the uh
scenarios that we've sort of championed
that I think is a a threshold moment for
older people is this disuse
event um and when people what are you
talking about and I mean so we we use
the term disuse to refer to when we
immobilize a muscle so we put a it's not
a cast but we might put a brace on
someone's leg as if they just torn their
ACL um and so it takes the the weight
off of the leg they crutch around uh and
their leg atrophies and it atrophies
fairly rapidly the difference is if
you're a younger person and you take the
brace off um and I don't do any sort of
rehab at all you just you know go back
to walking around you regain the muscle
if you're an older person and we did the
same experiment and we've done a few of
these experiments they don't gain the
muscle back you have to work very very
hard to gain that muscle back you have
to go into the gym and lift weights you
you just don't get it back so I think
that maybe that's the scenario that
people think like uh I don't know about
the maintenance part like you're
definitely you know at some point you're
on the down slope there's no question
and it's the difference between you know
the slope like this or the this you know
a steep slope versus a shallow slope uh
but if you have that disuse event it's a
rapid decline so you know forget about
the um the brace on the leg or you you
fracture your leg or your arm or
whatever but going into hospital and
getting sick and spending three or four
days even five days in bed uh as an
older person you lose a lot of muscle um
more so than a younger person and more
so is a percentage of the muscle that
you had because you've got less and then
the difference is on the backside of
that event you leave the hospital
because you're you're well um but
there's no attempt made to rehabilitate
you from your your your bed rest event
and you know pull you back to where you
were before if you're a young person no
sweat you you just do what you do or
maybe you do go to the gym or you do a
few things and and the muscle comes back
and so is the strength might take a
while but it comes back as an older
person it generally represents a
permanent loss it's gone uh it's very
hard to get it back unless you work very
hard and and the very hard you know
prescription on the backside of just
being sick in in hospital is for the
most part pretty minimal this kind of
ties back to something I brought up
before and your example there of being
in the hospital somebody be tuned into
to what we're talking about today and
say they're middle-aged and they break a
leg and they know that they're going to
be in the hospital for a couple of weeks
and and not
moving what would you do personally in
that case dietary wise to try and
preserve best you can so we have a
phrase that runs around the lab is that
it's hard to out diet in activity uh you
have a hard time you know dieting your
way out of not being active like it's
just difficult um and it's it's even
tougher a tougher proposition to out
diet or nutrition your way out of
preventing muscle loss but there's a few
and I think it's that they're pretty
fine grained uh things that you could do
first it's it's you know higher protein
higher quality protein and you know by
quality we're talking about the content
of nine of the 20 Bricks that are
essential we call them essential amino
acids one in particular and that's
Lucine as an amino acid um probably a
creatin uh could help um so as a
supplement and uh high do Omega-3s uh
which again this was a former postdoc of
mine and he came in and convinced me
that we needed to give people Omega-3s
because they got into the muscle and it
really wasn't my thing I'll be honest I
was like okay sure you know let's try an
experiment um and when we did it in
young women uh it complet like not
completely that's not true it it halfed
the amount of atrophy that these young
women saw but they got to take the
Omega-3s before they went in and we put
the brace on their leg so if you're if
you don't know you're G to break your
leg right um then you know you better be
taking some Omega-3s but if you break
your leg then I'd be prescribing some
high dose Omega-3s and trying to prevent
as much atrophy as I could and and and I
I would be the complete you know pain in
the butt for the probably the the nurses
at the nurses station because I'd be the
person trying to you know get on my
crutches and and and get out of the bed
and you know do all the things that that
that you know and there's a lot of
reasons for this nurses just don't like
they don't want to lose control of the
patient and not know where the patient
is right so it's because
they're charting and it's like ah you
know where's that you know where they
gone again right so that's a concern if
you're older because you could fall but
you know when you're younger maybe not
as much but if you get the right people
uh then man I get on my horse and I'd be
as active as I could in the hospital
expand more on the creatine piece
outside of this special case scenario
yeah for muscle health and building
muscle and for the mental aspect as well
well I have a short supplement shelf but
it it includes creatin um I don't know
that it does much for me from a muscle
standpoint I'm kind of hoping it might
but um I feel good when I take it but uh
uh but I take it more for what it might
do cognitively um this is you know sort
of a really novice area of research uh
that the effects right now you know
being completely honest I think are
they're pretty small but the studies are
small and I don't know that we've got
the right outcomes but your brain stores
creatin as well as your muscle does and
you know energy crises in your brain are
actually you know one of the key parts
of um lots of syndromes of dementia uh
and uh cognitive impairment are due to
declines in the ability of your brain to
energetically produce the ATP it needs
you know sort of like your muscle needs
that same ATP to generate force your
brain needs ATP to continue to work so
fosho creatin high energy store creatin
the precursor to it your brain stores it
we've got animal data uh that shows that
you know people who get traumatic brain
injuries or certain syndromes and we get
you know a stroke or something like that
uh these animals do a lot better when
they're on Crea and and so I'm kind of
banking on some of that rubbing off
because because the main reason people
go oh like what you know the effects so
small or whatever and I'm like so what
other things do we have that you know
lower the risk for dementia and
everything you know and they're like
well I don't know exercise I'm like oh
I'm already doing
that it's like good diet I'm like I'm
pretty sure I got most of that dialed in
and I'm like this is you know we don't
have drugs we don't have a preventive
drug and we don't even have a good
treatment drug uh out there you get
diagnosed with
dementia um and a lot of it is just like
so you know here's a pamphlet for you
here's a pamphlet for your your
caregiver
um come back in a in a year and and
let's see you know we do another
cognitive test and I'll tell you how
good you're doing or not doing and you
know here's something on sleep here's
something on um you know if they're
Progressive enough here's something on
activity and diet and and you know I
hope it goes well for you we got a
couple of drugs out there they're pretty
pretty crummy and they slow the decline
um but um even there
exercise pretty impressive in terms of
the effects it has doesn't nope not it's
you know exercise is not a cure right
but it reduces your risk tremendously
and even if you have dementia reduces
the rate of decline um pretty
substantially too so when it comes to
creatine dosage are you a fan of loading
maintaining with a certain dose cycling
on and off how do you look at all that
low dose like three to five grams a day
every day just a scoop generally goes in
with the yogurt in the morning I didn't
mention that should have mentioned that
but yeah that's where it goes I I I mean
I think the the the loading um protocols
uh if you went all the way back and you
know I'm old enough to remember when Kon
wasn't a supplement and Eric
Holman and uh Roger Harris and a few
others you know were starting to get
into this stuff and uh they thought they
you know this these were the same guys
you know Eric Holman worked with Jonas
Bergstrom who made the needle that we
take muscle pieces with right and so
maybe he thought the glycogen loading
which kind of came from those guys as
well was the same thing with the
loading and so the doses that they were
prescribing back then uh were way over
what was needed and so a ton of
would appear in the urine of of
individuals that did those doses so I
don't think that's necessary I think
most people now it's sort of you know 3
to five grams a day and you can you can
build stores up um if you respond
because not everybody responds to
creatin um and you you know you're
you're you're good from there cycle on
and off uh if I miss a day or two or if
I go on holid and don't bring my
supplement supplemental creatin I'm okay
it it's all good um I I know it's going
to be there when I come back uh some
people they see it differently and I get
it but um I I I don't think it's a big
deal so you mentioned the fact you're
not huge into supplements y Omega-3s
were mentioned creatine any others that
are on the Shelf vitamin D vitamin D is
about it um I live in you know Northern
latitude far enough away from the
equator that in wintertime My Sunshine
exposure is it's pretty limited uh I
think the prevalence data of you know o
overt um insufficiency def efficiency of
vitamin D is is enough to make me think
that I I should take that supplement in
particularly in Winter uh I don't worry
about it in the summer I don't get a ton
of sun exposure but um enough that I'm
think I'm okay um once you get Beyond
you know you've brought someone who's
deficient to sufficient or insufficient
to sufficient I don't think there's any
role for vitamin D and going from you
know sufficient to you know hyp her you
know vitamin D levels but um I do think
that you've got to take care of
insufficiency or deficiency and then
from a muscle perspective if not from a
bone perspective and probably lots of
other perspectives as well um vitamin D
uh would be my my other supplement for
sure a few minutes back you got into
some specifics around amino acids yeah
and up until this point in general we've
been talking about protein as a whole
yeah but let's get into some of the
Nuance here with amino acids quality of
protein often times protein is just
looked that as a whole an umbrella term
Yeah you mentioned Lucine the essential
amino acids how do we Factor all that in
when it comes to dietary
protein yeah um so the brick wall again
because it's you know it works um it's
got 20 Bricks in it uh 11 of those
bricks we can make we can we can bake
that brick and we people think about
bricks that like they're all the same
size and shape and everything it's not
it's not the case in in the human body
so the 20 amino acids the 20 building
blocks that we have um in protein are
they're like different shapes if that's
the right way of saying it you know ones
it's sort of like an interlocking brick
and ones you know maybe they're
different colors I don't know um and you
know we can bake and make 11 of those
bricks nine of them we can't and nine of
them we need to get from our diet so you
know uh meat if we eat it very rich
source of protein very rich source of
essential amino acids eggs um Dairy um
when we if you want to go to plant then
soy is probably kind of top of the Heap
uh there are you know nuts and seeds and
legumes and everything else have have
all of these essential amino acids I
know a lot of people they go oh plants
are deficient I'm like we got to stop
that they aren't deficient they're
they're lower um but they're not
deficient and you know when you eat
these things you're bringing in these
other nine bricks they're essential
because if you know if you were stuck in
a desert island and you'd imagine that
there's a protein source and it only
contains the uh 11 bricks or it contains
11 and they say three of the nine that
we need eventually you're going to die
like it's it take take a long time but
you know we just can't if we can't make
it and we're not eating it then we don't
Thrive so the way I kind of explain it
is there's one brick in particular that
is not just um a substrate for building
a wall it's actually the brick that when
it arrives it's like it turns on the
process that says hey it's time to make
the wall so I kind of you know it's the
player coach brick it's it's it's a
player it's part of the wall but it's
also the one that goes okay it's time
time to build it's time to make the the
the brick wall here and so we call that
a it's a signal uh it turns on a
signaling pathway or signaling process
and that brick is uh is Lucine it's a
branch chain amino acid which I'm sure
probably a lot of your listeners have
heard about um and it's the one branch
chain of the three the other two I know
everybody talks about the branch chain
amino acids there three of them there's
Lucine isol Lucine and veine but it's
Lucine that is the exclusive kind of
trigger brick it gets the whole process
started it makes the process sort of you
know turn on um and then the analogy I
use is it's like it's not like flipping
a switch it's on it's off it's like a
dimmer switch though you get some
looseing and the light comes on a little
bit you get more loosing that turns on
and that at a certain point you can
flood the system with loosing and you
can try and turn but you can't make the
lights any brighter so the the whole
brick wall process is you know when the
lights are on it's going and it's loose
scine that that that drives that process
and how much Lucine do we
need and does it need to be within a
specific period of
time and what
foods contain a good amount of that yeah
um I wish I could give you a great
answer to how much do we need um there's
a few people have tried to do this we
don't really have a great answer uh I
think Don Layman uh Lane Norton did some
great work with with rodents um but in
humans it sort of seems to be that
between two to three grams of Lucine per
meal uh is how much we need and
everybody goes well you know how much
protein is that and everything and the
answer is you know of course because
science it depends um because not every
protein
you know as you intimated is enriched in
in Lucine and so some proteins are what
we call higher quality uh so animal
Source proteins generically speaking are
higher quality than plant Source
proteins and so you need less of them to
get that amount of Lucine uh the highest
would come from dairy sources so milk
yogurt cheese that sort of thing
and uh the highest of the you know of
all the prot proteins that we know is is
whey protein or a combination of milk
proteins which is whey and
casine uh but let's just say that um
probably 10% of all protein in in milk
is uh comprised of Lucine as as a sort
of a ballpark estimate the rest of
protein that's out there like meat it
would be about 7% and everything else
eggs probably about 5 to 6%
um most legumes and soy it's about 5 to
six% so you're you know what you really
want is um you know if you had I'm gonna
make the math easy so I can do it at
like 100 grams of protein and you had 5%
you get five grams of Lucine so you
don't need that much you need probably
let's say half of that if you were just
eating that protein but within a meal um
that's enriched maybe you've got a glass
of milk then you know that's 10 % by
composition Lucine and you've got you
know maybe there's some eggs in there
then you've got another rich source of
Lucine and it it all adds up and because
we break these things down into its
constituents and they turn on the
process of protein synthesis given the
importance of Lucine specifically is it
available as a supplement and any value
in taking that with say a breakfast
making sure you're hitting that
threshold it is available uh as a
supplement um it doesn't taste great uh
it it's bitter
um we spend time making these things up
in the lab because we mess around with
these things you stick your finger and
taste all the amino acids which I know
not everybody's done but believe me the
most bitter of them is
Lucine um value I you know again the
answer is it depends if you're if you're
if you're that low six to eight grams of
protein person uh there's probably value
in taking Lucine as a supplement um not
a huge fan of trying to you know make up
for what food lacks but um it's
definitely convenient uh but if you're
getting you know the 30 40 grams of
protein that we talked about per meal uh
there there's I don't see any advantage
to adding Lucine to what what is
probably already a sufficient dose so I
I don't think so uh in that
situation um but supplements are
definitely uh Convenient Food first but
not necessarily you know uh supplement
free is maybe the way to go well let's
expand out and talk about protein
supplements as a whole you mentioned
earlier with your yogurt adding a
protein supplement at least sometimes
yeah if somebody wants to get one of
those what's the best one to get and how
much can we rely on that to make up for
a lack of protein in the diet say we're
having just like and again hypothetical
but just to as a thought experiment
somebody having say like a cereal really
low in protein but yet they're adding a
scoop of protein to their milk and
really ramping that up yeah does a
certain percentage is what I'm getting
at need to come from the food itself or
can we basically just supplement our way
to hitting our threshold yeah uh so lot
to unpack in that one but you know so
first I don't like to name names but I
I'll give you sort of my general
guideline for for supplements so um
particularly protein um based
supplements so first uh I always say
find a brand that is popularly available
so in other words don't go on the
internet and search and find the
cheapest one and it's you know it takes
three weeks to get here and you wonder
like where's it coming from from chances
are it's not coming from North America
and the risk then for contamination and
when I say contamination I'm not just
talking about you know it might have a
band substance in there which matters if
you're going to hop on the podium in
Paris but maybe not for your Mortals but
uh it doesn't contain what it says it
contains uh it's got you know all kinds
of things in there that you just don't
want like the quality control in the
factory is no nowhere near as good so
generally I try to say by domestic if
that's the right way to say things um
from that standpoint then I look for
something that bears it's usually an NSF
label uh that that is a quality
assurance label um I like stuff that
comes from GNC I think it's a you know a
pretty reputable chain they've got good
products in there they'll tell you the
ones that are made in the United States
or made in Canada or you know and and
those are the ones that I would buy
more money doesn't mean it's
better it might be that it's got the
best advertising and the best reputation
or whatever but you know you can you can
you know I hate to say this but like
Costco does a pretty good
job their protein supplements are are
are good and relatively cheap so is
their creating for the record
um you know after that the the the
question of uh you know putting it into
the low protein containing meal I think
that's a fine strategy um if you're not
willing to kind of choose more food in
in in other words i' sort of preach a
food F food first approach and the main
reason for that is the contained in food
are lots of other nutrients that we need
anyway and and I'm you know I'm fond of
saying if you're again you're stuck on a
desert island and all you have was
protein powder
after a while you'd be dead too like you
could get all the amino acids but you
don't have you know the calcium the
vitamin D and all the vitamins that you
need that you're getting from other
things in your diet fruits and
vegetables and Grains and cereals and
and and all kinds of other things
so that's why food is important I think
it you know there's nothing supplement
wise it's really hard to kind of make it
all up and food kind of does it if you
eat a for a varied diet
um what it does though uh is get you to
the amount of protein that you need and
it does it in a very convenient manner
because you know protein powders are
concentrated isolated sources of protein
and so they don't contain carbs they
don't contain fats they they they're
just giving you the protein and so if
energy is an issue for you and you don't
want to over consume energy then what's
wrong with a protein supplement I don't
have any issues with that I I think all
on before we go any further writer
statement you know protein does not
cause your kidneys to fail just just
just doesn't if you want more if you got
show notes I can add the references for
you we've done several meta analysis
does not cause kidney failure it just
doesn't um doesn't cause your bones to
go soft you know there's a lot of things
up there but um you know because
everybody that's the first push back I
get to go oh it doesn't protein cut your
kidneys to fail I'm like no it doesn't
do that um yeah without going any deeper
into that one I'll just uh give you all
the references you like can you talk
more about the bone one talk about that
myth where that came from and and why
that's seeming to hold yeah it's you
know it's it's sort of a a golden oldie
um you eat some protein uh
protein we we'll skip over the details
but makes your blood acidic uh acidic or
an acid load in your blood uh causes
calcium to Leech from your bones in an
attempt to balance the
acidity um you lose calcium in your
urine and your bones become brittle and
weaker it's called the acid Ash
hypothesis so the acid is your blood the
ash is the you know the bone Ash or the
calcium that comes out um that's
completely false actually when you dial
in calcium in terms of an intake and
vitamin D for your bone protein is bone
supportive because as I said um if I
didn't um already uh a certain
proportion of your your bone is is
actually protein it's like it's not just
a stick of chalk or otherwise bones
would break all the time so I I think
it's important to realize that you're
not going to make your bones brittle or
weak by having a high ER protein diet
but again it's still important to get
calcium and vitamin D dialed in because
they're the two main bone supported
nutrients for sure one of the other
things you hear is that
protein can impact longevity and if
you're looking to live a long life you
want to decrease your protein intake
which is countered to everything we're
talking about today so speak to that is
there any truth there in any studies or
where does that come from yeah so I
think the really important part to
realize is a lot like the energy
restriction trials which have been done
in you know everything from mice all the
way up to um primates so basically
monkeys
uh everything shows that as soon as you
get to sort of primates the effects are
a little bit equivocal so so to be clear
there's no human trial that we can say
this causes this in humans so it's basic
basically
observational uh and you could make the
argument that you know more protein than
people live long or live shorter excuse
me uh or have more health issues if
that's the right way of saying it and I
think when you dig and and I mean really
dig around in these data uh the answer
to that question is is is very gray and
there's nothing that makes me think that
a higher protein diet in the range that
we're talking about and I'm not talking
about you know uh all carnivore type
diets which are very different and that
makes me think think you know there's
there's something there that's
shortening somebody's life um certain
nutritional observational studies higher
sources of certain proteins red meat is
the big one um but really nothing that
shows that you know mid or later life or
even early life protein consumption
shortens life in fact a study just came
out not too long ago showing that if
anything uh some forms of protein plant
protein in particular so it's not the
protein per se maybe it's where it comes
from um can actually help you live
longer and I think one of the key parts
that you know longevity is one thing
right living long is is is one thing um
what we're talking about is is Health
span a little bit so living well uh and
I've you know made the point to suffer
people I have no interest in living to
be 120 and feeling like I'm 120 I might
say that I might be have a different
opinion when I get to that age if I get
to that age um but I'm talking about
having full Mobility being able to move
around being you know hopefully as as
disease free as possible low medication
basically you know running my own show
uh from a cognitive standpoint and uh
doing as much as I can so that's that's
Health span uh and then you know the
Nuance gets even even
more difficult to say well eating more
of or less of you know without going to
sort of extremes um is going to affect
your your health span so I don't think
that there's there's nothing at least in
my mind from a human stpoint that makes
me think that protein is there's
something damning about it that you're
GNA live you know a shorter life or
you're going to experience a downturn in
health particularly and here's my rider
my outstate which is um if you're
physically active have you heard of any
acute or chronic negative effects from
somebody hyperd doing in protein say
they're eating a lot of meat they're
supplementing with whey and they're just
really upping that
protein just for completeness have you
seen anything go Ary when that happens
I'm familiar with
um several people that I've spoken to uh
that not necessarily done research
search with but just you they say oh you
know you know something about protein
well I'm getting ready for and it's
usually a competition related to
physique um bodybuilding or or figure
competit you know competitiveness or
something like that where people are
just doing some diabolical things and so
they're they're on very low calorie
diets they know the protein can help
them maybe hang on to a bit of muscle
they're working out at the same time
um and it's hard for me to dissociate
the fact that they're eating next to
nothing from the fact that they're
getting like the highest I've seen is
somewhere around six grams of protein
per kilo um and this was in a
pretty I called her small uh female
figure competitor getting ready for a
competition and and pretty much all she
was eating was protein uh and she could
barely string a sentence together but I
don't know whether that was because of
the protein or she was eating like I
think it was like you know 700 calories
a day or something and was down to some
redonkulous low level of body fat so I I
like I don't think anything terrible
happens um but but it can uh in those
scenarios it's probably related more to
caloric restriction and
dehydration and an over obsession with
with protein I I I have talked to a few
people that are that are carnivores and
and they they seem fine they they you
you know they seem to thrive um
personally I I just couldn't do that and
I have no intention of trying but some
people like a lot of I mean surely
what's typified if we're still around is
the our our adaptability as a species
right so I get the feeling that in
certain times we can push ourselves into
some pretty tight corners and we can be
okay and and
survive thriving is a different question
now lots of people will say I feel fine
and I'm like maybe you are um but also
um maybe the right stressor hasn't come
around and really tested the system but
uh I've never seen anything too bizarre
but I I don't hang around with a lot of
people that push themselves into those
extremes um so somebody that wants to
accentuate the workouts using a protein
powder any value in taking it in a
bottle to the gym and shaking that and
drinking right before a workout during a
workout right after a
workout anything whatsoever for people
looking for a slight Edge no no none at
all no I I mean it's it's it's hard for
me to say because you know of course uh
I I did have the experience and I relate
this one um the person should R remain
nameless but uh one semester I taught a
a a junior level uh nutrition and
Metabolism class
and I had a Gold Medal winner in my
class and this person had just won a
gold medal at an Olympics and so every
time I said something and then this
person put up their hand I would call on
them and they would relate an anecdote
in their preparation up to the Olympics
I you know like I I lost the room right
so so the anecdote is proportional to
the Su success of the person who gives
it and uh let's just say is that um you
know so if somebody who wins a gold
medal said well you know I took
supplement X I took it to the gym and I
slammed it as soon as I was done my
workout then it doesn't matter what I
say so let's just say is that if maybe
if you're climbing onto the podium in
Paris or wherever you are um those last
little very nuanced details begin to
matter I think for most mere mortals
the broad Strokes matter a little bit
more but um yeah if I get a chuckle over
anything it's the sipping on the protein
shake during the workout but um
generally uh you know not to paint with
too broad a brush you've got an XY
chromosome set you you uh yeah it's it's
it's a it's a guy thing I women drink
water how do you feel about using
protein dietary protein or supplementing
the diet as a weight weight loss
strategy satiety thermal effect of
protein any other nuances there that
people might want to utilize I mean
everything we have on um you know pure
diet induced weight loss so caloric
restriction so forget about you know uh
OIC or you know whatever uh glp1 drugs
but um protein there's a small Edge uh I
think it's satiety I think it's probably
the thermic effect I think it's
uh probably you're hanging on to a bit
more muscle uh there could be a protein
what's called protein leverage and the
idea there is that um when you're not
consuming enough protein uh there's some
I'll call it a protein stat that s that
you know it's a neural signal that says
go and seek more food because you're not
getting enough protein and so you eat
more energy to try and make up for the
lower
protein it works well in animals and and
insects and lots of things and people it
probably works up to a point it seems
and then the effects of you know sort of
going beyond that you know usually about
15 to 17% of energy you you don't lever
down energy intake um but for all the
reasons you just mentioned I think it's
uh you know as a substrate I think it's
it's the one macro that if people are
saying well I'm going to restrict energy
what should I focus on and I I think
it's a high herb
relative protein intake and consuming
overall less energy and if you're really
bent on you know insulin causes fat
retention and it's the reason why we're
all obese then restrict simple
carbohydrates at the same time and
replace it with a little bit of protein
I think that would be a you know a
pretty good strategy well let's tie in
metabolic health and go deeper into this
piece earlier when we talked about
anabolic resistance you brought up
insulin resistance you just brought up
the carbohydrate piece one of the
benefit of putting muscle on is the
benefits to our metabolic
Health talk about that specific Lane and
why somebody would want to put on muscle
for that specific benefit yeah I mean I
I I think everybody's sort of familiar
with the idea of of our resting
metabolic rate so you know even if
you're just laying in bed and doing
nothing we're always burning energy to
keep you know our heart pumping and all
the pumps in our body that consume
energy to keep ions and sodium and
potassium in check and you know we're
still digesting and everything else like
that so you know your resting metabolic
rate for most people um is the largest
single energy expenditure you'll have in
a day unless you're a very physically
active person so if you burn a lot of
calories through physical activity then
maybe your resting metabolic rate isn't
a big consideration but most of us you
know have a resting metabolic rate it's
proportional to First our our our weight
our height in our sex so bigger taller
men tend to burn more calories um if you
boil resting metabolic rate down to
which tissues contribute the most to it
it's it's really down to two one is is
muscle and it wins by virtue of its mass
you have a lot of it uh it's not overly
metabolically active unless you're
physically active so if you have more
muscle probably you're more physically
active uh you tend to burn more energy
and your resting metabolic rate is just
notched up a little bit like the
thermostats you know up a little the
other is your liver um it it's not very
big um but it's hugely metabolically
active
and uh you know I often people go oh
well you know we need to do something to
our liver I'm like no you don't want to
mess with the liver you know nobody's
talking about age related loss of liver
unless you're you're you know consuming
maybe too much alcohol or something but
a lot of people can can do something
that about age related loss of muscle
mass and that's to resistance train and
to hang on to this metabolically active
tissue that is a sync for blood glucose
so it you know restricts your or or
excuse me reduces your risk for type two
diabetes uh it's a sync for lipid
oxidation uh and I have a colleague uh
in Germany uh Henning vaker hoga his
name is and he's sort of of the opinion
too that um we're underestimating a
little bit when we begin to lift weights
and really sort of turn up the turnover
on muscle and maybe create some muscle
damage with Ecentric type work um that
muscle sort of switches its metabolism
to to be very carbohydrate Centric and
begin to burn uh excess carbohydrate and
so it's it's not just a SN in other
words it stes glucose it's sort of a a
metabolic sink and it begins to burn and
turn the glucose into lots of other
things as well so it's it's sort of like
a a tissue that is part of the furnace
and the more of it you have the level on
the furnace is just ramped up a little
bit so to your point but I I point this
out to a lot of people too is this that
you have to be active as well you know
so you got you're a big muscle person
you can't just lay around
um you will burn a little bit more
energy but but if you're physically
active that's what really turns the
furnace up well let's take that line
around piece and expand upon it and talk
about and we've talked about being B
ridden but somewhere in between somebody
who is just on vacation they're not
really pushing it how quickly do we
start to lose muscle or even overnight
if somebody is you know they're not
eating after dinner they're not getting
that stimulus through the diet
or
exercise how quickly will things start
to go the other way yeah it's a good
question I mean I think it depends like
most things in science right um how old
you are and you know if you're younger
probably it's not a big deal at all you
spend two weeks just sitting around and
doing nothing and it would have no
appreciable effect on your muscle at all
we did an experiment several years ago
we took older individuals and they were
overweight and some of them were as well
so but they were all metabolically they
had no issues at all but if for two
weeks we gave them a pedometer and said
you can't take more than 1500 steps a
day uh I think most people now you know
you wear something you've got a ring or
something on your wrist or You' got a
phone that tells you how many steps you
can take or should take etc etc uh and
1500 is is not a lot so you got to plan
your day you gotta you know you spend a
lot of time sitting around and like you
know well it's going to cost me 200
steps to you know but it was designed to
mimic a little bit what happened in in
hospitalized patients who on average
only take about 700 steps but we thought
well these people aren't sick like
they're we're just going to ask them to
sit at home for two weeks um they lost
muscle in two weeks uh they got a little
bit weaker um but they became insulin
resistant so that may have been the
muscle loss but probably due to the fact
they weren't using their muscles as well
and and I want to say they were on
average they were about sort of mid-60s
so if you're older uh you can lose it
pretty quickly if you completely remove
the activity stimulus and so the bed
rest scenario you lose it very fast um
there's been some studies done since
trying to rescue that muscle loss in
hospitalized patients remember none of
these people are sick these are all well
people that were just saying do
less um the over night scenario well
that happens every night right unless
you're getting up and eating in the
middle of the night which I don't advise
um but uh yeah I mean you're you're you
know very subtly you're going to lose a
small amount of muscle but nothing on a
scale is going to tell you what it is um
so every time you eat you reverse that
so I mean I think it's probably
self-evident that um if you don't eat
protein for a long period of time you're
not going to get that stimulation but
similarly if you don't move around then
you've lost the two inputs that are
really driving the system and as age
marches on uh the system just gets less
and less you know capable the ceiling
goes down but the sensitivity switch is
also a little bit dimmed as well and the
only way to ramp that back up protein
helps but is by being Physically Active
for sure well where that overnight piece
can
become maybe even double the length if
if somebody's not eating after dinner
and then fasting in the morning yeah you
could basically double the length of
somebody just you know eating relatively
close to bedtime and then again in the
morning so yeah there could be a big
difference there yeah I I actually um
it's interesting that you bring that up
I have a a a friend reach out to me and
he's never been a big guy um but he said
his wife would she said you know I need
to lose some weight would you join me in
this sort of time restricted eating
intermittent fasting type regime and he
was like sure yeah okay you know
anything I'll support you we're good um
and he's a runner uh which is awesome
right um but uh he said I I he goes I
didn't find it very hard at all I goes I
I lost I lost some weight but he goes
now uh and he he said occasionally I'd
be in the gym he goes now like he goes
I'm weaker I can feel it he goes and
like I'm he goes I went from this weight
to this weight and I was like I'm like
no that's good but it's not great so um
as your point out uh I mean it probably
doesn't take much and I don't think his
running um was overly helpful because it
was just you know burning off energy um
so yeah and and he was never big to
begin with but now he's a much smaller
and even he would acknowledge sort of
weaker version of himself but that
doesn't describe everybody but to your
point uh not somebody that really needed
to you know Tim restrict their their
food but did it to support their their
spouse and as a result um lost lost a
little bit of muscle and I've heard you
talk about having a protein Bullis
before bed to actually minimize that
time and go the other
way who would you Advocate that for
that's a Nuance within a nuance and and
I think you know if you're if you're an
athlete I think that's a great strategy
if you're an older person
um I don't have an issue with that uh I
mean you know I hate to say this but
like the warm glass of milk before you
go to bed like maybe it's not a bad idea
after all but a lot of people oh it you
know gives me indigestion I have to go
get up in the night to go pee or you
know or or it disturbs my sleep and so
it's not for everybody and and I value
Sleep Quality over a lot of things these
days so uh you know experiment with it
and see how it works but yeah my again
friend colleague Luke Lon would say um
it's not a bad strategy Not a Bad Thing
to try uh they do it I know they've done
some trials in um hospitalized patients
and uh again it's maybe that's the way
to go but uh yeah large Bolis uh right
before you go to sleep not a bad not a
bad idea for some people maybe what are
some of the areas over the years that
you've changed your mind on quite a few
actually um I mean you know there's
probably two big big ones one is you
know 20 years ago protein quality
animals better than plant absolutely the
more plant you eat you just have to eat
more protein or maybe you're sacrificing
some gains and etc etc you know fast
forward today to to today um data that
we've generated other labs have
generated would suggest otherwise and
the plant-based proteins are you know my
mind they're they're maybe a little bit
different so if you want you know to
equalize the two you know maybe eat 10%
more protein if you're eating plantbased
or or vegan or something like that uh
and and that
really upsets
people and I like I I get it because you
you just want an answer I I posted
something on Instagram the other day in
a comment that somebody made was well
doesn't all of this just boil down to
like it depends and what does that help
and I'm like yeah it does but but you
know science is rarely absolute right
like it so answers change based on on
changing knowledge and so that's what I
think upsets people it's it doesn't you
know it wasn't what they learned
yesterday it's new so that that's how
science works and and the science these
days says you know plant-based or plant
proteins first you have a lot more
choice now than you ever did and I get
it they're they're processed foods that
are made to you know with plants and put
together um but you know that's led to
sort of a Evolution revolution in
people's choice um and those those types
of foods are probably not a bad source
of protein everything that we've done um
you just got to eat enough I think that
1.6 grams per kilo 7 per pound you kind
of cover a lot of bases and it doesn't
matter whether it comes from plants or
animals and that's that's a big one I
mean I think the other one is um asked
me 20 years ago how important protein
was for gaining muscle mass and I just
say oh it's like it's King like it's
it's huge and everything and
then studies march on we've done some
lots of other groups have contributed to
the area and you do a synthesis of the
evidence that's out there so meta
analysis and you know for people that
maybe don't know what that is or maybe
have never heard of it meta analysis is
basically looking and systematically
searching through all of the studies you
know when I say all within a you know
confined
criteria uh that have been done and
having a consensus answer based on
basically mathema
mathematically looking at all of those
studies and you know that method was
invented and came into being um at my
University at McMaster so you know we we
we're responsible for gifting this to
the
world so but it but it's also the basis
of you know making decisions over
life-saving therapies and Cancers and in
cardiovascular drugs and lots of really
important areas so let's just say the
protein affecting muscle mass gain is
you know I'm not winning any Nobel
prizes on this so uh and I don't have
any I don't have a horse in the race and
everything but I would have said 20
years ago protein is King it's super
important you got to get it you got to
eat more and the more you eat more the
more is better better is better than
better uh and now it's sort of like nah
it it's a thin slice on top like you you
bake the cake in other words you make
the muscle by going to the gym by
lifting weights and doing it regularly
um if you really want to tweak things
then eat a little bit more protein um I
might say a little bit like twice the
RDA so 1.6 so it's not a trivial amount
of protein it is more than is
recommended for sure um but what it adds
is uh it's a it's a layer of icing on
the cake and and that really pisses
people off uh because for a long time I
think we unwittingly sort of contributed
to the narrative and I would I would
admit this frankly and even in our
papers you know go back and read them
I'm like oh yeah that's well that's what
we thought at the time time uh and now I
just think it's a much more subtle um
tweak that you can make in your routine
which maybe goes back to my answer of
you know if you want more muscle what
what should you really be doing well you
need to be lifting weights but you know
the nutrition piece is
important the pieces inside the piece
less important and then the pieces
inside the pieces you know and and the
Nuance can get boiled down and quite
reductionist but uh for the most part um
it's pretty broad Strokes stuff um I
think that's a little bit of Aging in
there as well and I'll just call it life
wisdom or something like that is that
I'm like remember those things I used to
worry about but um maybe and maybe
that's just me so maybe it's my Persona
that's changing as well so I have to
acknowledge that but I I still read and
we still do a lot of science around here
so I think it's uh I think it's science
too
coming back to the plant protein piece
yeah just looking for a little bit more
Nuance there given we talked about Lucy
and the importance of that for MPS yeah
the essential amino acids you mentioned
early on the fact that soy is a great
source of plant-based protein y y how do
we look at the Nuance of amino acids MPS
when it comes to somebody on a planton
diet or vegan diet diet right and then
when it comes to supplementing that diet
with a plant protein which would you
recommend yeah I mean there's a lot of
reasons to you know be vegan or eat
plant-based from Health otherwise and
whether that's cardiovascular or you
know a comment about carbon footprint
greenhouse gas emissions which I
definitely don't want to get into
because it's not my area at all but uh
or the choice that people make ecal um
religious whatever reason whatever it is
that you make that choice um to eat that
way so you know I'll just start out by
saying that from a protein standpoint
you do have to eat more um but I think
that how much more I used to think it
was you know 30 to 40% I think it's
closer now to sort of 10 to 15% more if
you're on uh plant-based it might be as
high as 20% if you're a vegan
um but if you're a judicious vegan uh in
other words you know how to complement
proteins you know things like textured
vegetable protein is a good source and
Etc of protein um you get those things
figured out but by judicious I mean
educated and that you you plan your
meals you you know you can be vegan and
need um you know a slice of white
Wonderbread and drink a Diet Coke but
that doesn't make you a good vegan right
and then just like you can be be a
crummy omnivore or no the big you can
eat an Oreo and you're vegan or you know
like you get my point right not to
overstress on it but I think what's
happened out in the world is that people
have become very polarized in their
views and it's become now a battle of
philosophy rather than than science but
the the reality is is that you know if
you're eating those plant-based things
you just got to eat a little bit more
protein if you add plant-based protein
powder
then it just I mean the arguments become
largely moot they're slightly lower
quality but we just finished a study in
older men and we compared way to to PE
protein and when we got these folks
these older guys up to um 1.6 grams it
didn't matter whether you're eating whey
or p uh we had a third condition where
people got collagen uh and then it
mattered because collagen is a very low
quality protein uh we used to spray it
on Farmers Fields as fertilizer um now
there's a good marketing machine behind
it and it improves your skin your nails
and extensively your your connective
tissue Etc um but yeah so we and uh we
whey and p uh no difference uh both of
them better than collagen but you got to
eat you got to eat you know a little bit
more protein for sure would PE be your
number one choice in the plant world
I don't know if it' be my number one um
for a powder somebody wanting to buy a
supplement I still think it's
soy and I know a lot of people they're
oh isoflavones the these are feminizing
hormones that's complete garbage um a
lot of people uh because of the soy Le
leian that's in there they say that's
GMO and if that's your belief then fine
don't don't eat soy uh but it's the
highest quality plant protein that's out
there for sure and specifically honing
in on the Lucine is that high in soy or
in P yeah it's it's it's pretty high in
in in soy it's not as high in PE as it
is in soy but again if you get to the
enough protein it doesn't matter oddly
enough I don't know why and people ask
me why I don't know uh but corn protein
is is high in Lucine and I have no I
have no no concept but one thing and
I'll just mention this because I think
it's really cool when I mention it to my
students they don't think it's so cool
but I told them I'm like you know
historically isn't it amazing that in
these food I'll call them insecure
regions or for regions of you know
religious nature they just didn't have
very many animals and livestock around
they figured out that the beans or a
legume and and a grain paired together
were were good I'm like red beans and
rice in the Caribbean black beans and
corn in South America uh lentils and
rice in India soy and rice in in lots of
Southeast Asia and they just glaze over
and I'm like I think that's insanely
fascinating but um they're not quite as
convinced but I I think that's you know
again it's a testimony to you know human
adaptability that we don't like we don't
need meat to survive I I eat meat I flat
out admit that I'm I'm a died in the wo
omnivore um but I probably eat less than
I did and I think my three sons even
though they're I think very protein
aware will eat less than I did and there
you know I mean that's you can't feed
nine billion people um at least with the
methods that we have for
agriculture last question for you male
versus female any differences when it
comes to protein intake resistance
training my take on this is is there
probably are some differences but
they're relatively small I
mean short of um you know reproductive
hormonal issues which you know the work
that we've done and meta analyed and
lots of other people have done appear to
be relatively trivial there is a shift
around menopause and women uh that
happens with bone and it and it also
happens with muscle as well so you know
a strong message is for women to to
really think about maintaining and
gaining some strength heading into
menopause because it's a it's a
transition point from a muscular
skeletal
standpoint um outside of that uh we're
the same species right and and and I
think the differences are relatively
subtle and that's not to poo poo any
differences in
pathological disease mechanisms which
we've done a crummy job researching
women absolutely um but you know the
bottom line is from muscle protein
resistance
training we don't see an awful lot of
difference between them and and you know
for the record again I know men have
testosterone women don't so you know
blah blah blah blah but once you're once
you're postpubertal uh if you get grown
males females to lift weights you know
men have more muscle than women but
relatively speaking they gain the same
amount they go up proportionate to how
much muscle they gain so you don't need
testosterone to to gain muscle it's the
local action of the lifting the weight
that that drives the process so
um and and also you know a lot of women
will say oh I don't want to muscle up
and get huge and I'm like I never seen
that happen just be honest so um but
it's it's going to be more important I
think even for women um than it is for
men to to be strong going into your
later years for sure one more question
for you frequency of resistance
training if somebody wants to optimize
for MPS is it best just to go by muscle
soreness have a day off in between doing
resistance training how do we figure out
the frequency yeah soreness I I I don't
think is a good guide of for anything um
I'm of the camp no pain no pain um
particularly at my age because I want to
come back and train tomorrow or the next
day um there's a sweet spot probably
between somewhere between two to three
times a week I think uh really uh
squeezes a lot out of the cloth you you
pretty much got a lot of the benefits
there uh
always one time a week or something
always much much much better than
nothing um but once you've got the one
time a week mastered then I'd say two
and you know it's sort of like how how
much do you want to twist the cloth but
some between two to three times a week
and you've got it all covered all right
good place to end it steu I really
appreciate you coming on sharing your
wisdom my pleasure this was great we're
going to link up your social media
everything in the show notes thank you
okay my pleasure now that you're done
you're going to want to stick around
here and catch this other incredible
episode you don't want to miss it I'll
see you over there your whole goal in
life is to get the highest lean mass at
the lowest fat Mass basically you want
to be a bodybuilder so if I just snap my
fingers and you're a bodybuilder you
have very little body fat tons of muscle
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