Developer Success Roundtable from DevRelCon Prague

Summary

この対話では、開発者リレーションズとデベロッパーサクセスの定義と実践的な側面について熱心に議論されています。デベロッパーサクセスは単に開発者をツールに取り入れることではなく、彼らの事業目標の達成を支援することであると強調されています。コミュニティの熱心な支持者を育成し、開発者の学習スタイルに合わせた多様なリソースを提供することの重要性が語られています。最終的には、デベロッパーサクセスを測定し実践に移す具体的な方法についての洞察が提示されています。

Takeaways

• 😀開発者の成功とは、開発者が自身の目標を達成できるようにサポートすることである。
• 🙌開発者の成功は、開発者が直面する課題を理解し、その課題を解決するために必要なツールやリソースを提供することである。
• 👣開発者の成功には、コーディングだけでなく、マーケティングやビジネス目標の達成など、開発の周辺にある課題への対応も含まれる。
• 🎯開発者の成功を測る指標としては、製品の継続的な利用率(チャーン率の低さ)、開発者のエンゲージメントの維持などが考えられる。
• 🔑開発者の成功には、開発者のニーズの変化に合わせて、提供する価値を常に進化させていく必要がある。
• 🌐Web3の分野では、開発者の成功は、開発者が構築したプロダクトにユーザーが集まるかどうかによって判断される。
• 🧑‍💻開発者は、自分の仕事の一環としてコーディングをするだけでなく、楽しみとしてコーディングをすることもある。
• 🤝開発者の成功を達成するには、開発者コミュニティとの長期的な関係性を構築し、開発者をキャリア全般でサポートすることが重要である。
• 💼企業によっては、開発者の成功は単に製品統合を容易にすることだけを意味する場合もある。
• 🧩開発者の学習スタイルは様々なので、ドキュメント、動画、個別サポートなど、さまざまな形式で情報を提供する必要がある。

Q & A

デベロッパーリレーションズ部門を率いているのは誰ですか？

Katがデベロッパーリレーションズ部門を率いています。

PromofixのCEOは誰ですか？

Christopher ThomasがPromofixのCEOです。

Carlaはどのような職務経歴を持っていますか？

Carlaは7年間デベロッパーリレーションズ（DevRel）の分野で働いており、現在はMuralでプログラムマネージャーとして勤務しています。

Jonanは自身をどのように紹介していますか？

Jonanは自身をデベロッパーリレーションズのプロフェッショナルとして紹介しています。

デベロッパー成功（Developer Success）とは何ですか？

デベロッパー成功は、デベロッパーがプラットフォームや技術を利用して成功を収めることを目的とした概念です。これは、ツールの提供だけでなく、ビジネス成功に向けてのサポートも含まれます。

Web3の文脈でデベロッパー成功はどのように異なりますか？

Web3の文脈では、デベロッパー成功はプラットフォームへのデベロッパーの参加と、成功した製品の作成に重点を置いています。これにより、ユーザーが増え、結果的にプロトコルが成功します。

OutSystemsでデベロッパー成功部門がどのように機能していましたか？

OutSystemsでは、デベロッパー成功は高いタッチのサポートとデベロッパーが自身の目標を達成するための支援を提供することに焦点を当てていました。

デベロッパー成功をチームに組み込む方法は？

デベロッパー成功は、チームメンバー全員の横断的な責任として扱われるか、特定の人物がデベロッパー成功担当として指名されることがあります。

デベロッパー成功の日常業務はどのようなものですか？

デベロッパー成功の業務には、デベロッパーが自身の目標を達成するためのサポート、製品開発への洞察提供、市場の再セグメンテーションなどが含まれます。

デベロッパー成功の実践的なステップは何ですか？

実践的なステップには、ドキュメントのスクロール追跡、スタックオーバーフローでの問題の追跡、チュートリアルのABテスト、コミュニティの積極的な参加者の活性化などが含まれます。

Outlines

00:00

👥 自己紹介とデベロッパー・サクセスの定義

このパラグラフでは、パネリストが自己紹介をし、デベロッパー・サクセスの定義について議論しています。デベロッパー・サクセスは、開発者が成功することを支援することであり、単にツールの使い方を教えるだけでなく、開発者の目標達成を支援することが重要だと述べられています。Web3の文脈では、プロトコルに基づいて製品を作る開発者が成功することが不可欠であり、そうすることでプロトコル自体が成功するということが強調されています。

05:01

🎯 デベロッパー・サクセスとデベロッパー・エクスペリエンスの違い

このパラグラフでは、デベロッパー・サクセスとデベロッパー・エクスペリエンスの違いについて議論されています。デベロッパー・エクスペリエンスは開発者が簡単にコーディングできるようにすることに焦点を当てていますが、デベロッパー・サクセスはそれを超えて、開発者が自身の目標を達成できるようにサポートすることを目指します。企業のハイタッチサポートが必要な重要な開発者に対しては、専門のデベロッパー・サクセス役割が必要となる可能性があります。

10:02

🌐 デベロッパー・サクセスの広がり

このパラグラフでは、デベロッパー・サクセスの概念が広がりつつあることについて話されています。デベロッパー・サクセスは、単にコーディングの支援ではなく、デジタル体験を構築するための建設的な支援であるべきです。つまり、開発者のユースケースやペルソナに合わせて、適切なツールやリソースを提供することが重要です。また、企業により広範な視点でデベロッパー・サクセスを捉え、製品開発やマーケティングの側面からアプローチすることの重要性が述べられています。

15:03

🤝 開発者の成功とは何か

このパラグラフでは、開発者の成功とは何かについて議論されています。開発者は単に製品を使うためだけに来るのではなく、自分の目標を達成するために来ています。したがって、開発者の成功は、製品の使い方を教えるだけでなく、開発者が抱える課題を解決できるようにサポートすることが重要です。また、開発者にとっての成功は、単に問題を解決することだけでなく、長期的な関係性を構築し、キャリアを通じてサポートすることだと主張されています。

20:04

🚀 実践的なデベロッパー・サクセスの実現方法

このパラグラフでは、デベロッパー・サクセスを実践的に実現する方法について議論されています。開発者の目標やニーズを理解し、それに合わせて適切な形式でサポートを提供することが重要です。また、ドキュメンテーションやスタック・オーバーフローで開発者が直面している課題を特定し、それを解決するための改善を行うことが推奨されています。さらに、新しい機能や製品を開発者に効果的に伝達し、より価値のあるサービスを提供することも、デベロッパー・サクセスの一部であると述べられています。

25:05

👍 デベロッパー・サクセスの測定方法

このパラグラフでは、デベロッパー・サクセスをどのように測定するかについて議論されています。離脱率(チャーン)の低下は、開発者に価値を提供し続けている指標となります。また、開発者の当初の目的を達成できたかどうかを確認することも重要です。Web3の文脈では、開発者の成功は、プロトコル上で構築されたプロダクトのユーザー数で測ることができます。一方、企業製品ではビジネス目標の達成度合いが指標となる可能性があります。様々な学習スタイルに対応し、開発者のニーズに合わせた適切なサポートを提供することも重要です。

30:06

🍫 まとめと今後の展望

最後のパラグラフでは、パネルディスカッションの要点がまとめられています。デベロッパー・サクセスは状況によって異なる側面があり、一概に定義することはできませんが、開発者の長期的な成功を支援することが本質的な目的であると理解されました。また、デベロッパー・コミュニティとの関係性を構築し、開発者の様々なニーズに対応することが重要であると強調されています。デベロッパー・サクセスはまだ発展途上の概念ですが、今後さらに議論が深まることが期待されています。

Keywords

💡デベロッパー・リレーションズ

デベロッパー・リレーションズ（DevRel）は、企業が外部のソフトウェア開発者と積極的に関わり、コミュニティを構築し、製品やサービスの採用を促進する役割を担います。このビデオでは、DevRelの重要性とその役割について議論されており、特にWeb3クライアントを対象とするエージェンシーであるHypeの開発者リレーションズ部門の責任者であるKatが、開発者の成功を支援する取り組みについて話しています。

💡開発者成功

開発者成功は、デベロッパーが技術を効果的に利用し、自身のプロジェクトや製品を成功させるためのサポートを提供するコンセプトです。このビデオでは、特にWeb3領域での開発者成功の重要性が強調されており、プラットフォーム上で製品を成功させるために開発者が必要とするサポートに焦点を当てています。

💡デベロッパー・ポータル

デベロッパー・ポータルは、API、ツール、リソース、ドキュメントなど、開発者が製品やサービスを利用するために必要な情報を提供するウェブサイトです。ビデオでは、PromofixのCEOであるChristopher Thomasが、デベロッパー・ポータルの重要性と、企業がDevRel人材を採用することの難しさについて語っています。

💡Web3

Web3は、分散型アプリケーション（DApps）やブロックチェーン技術を活用した次世代のインターネットのビジョンを指します。このビデオでは、KatがWeb3クライアントとの仕事と、開発者がプラットフォーム上で成功する製品を構築するためのサポートについて語っています。

💡API管理

API管理は、APIの作成、公開、保守、監視、および保護を含むプロセスです。ビデオで、Christopherは多くの企業がAPI管理ソリューションに投資しているが、それだけでは開発者を引き付けることができないと指摘しています。

💡顧客成功

顧客成功は、顧客が製品やサービスを最大限に活用し、望む結果を得られるように支援するビジネス戦略です。このビデオでは、Carlaが開発者成功と顧客成功の間の類似点について言及しており、開発者に対しても同様のアプローチを取ることの重要性を強調しています。

💡ハイタッチ・サポート

ハイタッチ・サポートは、個々の顧客やユーザーに対してカスタマイズされ、より個人的なサポートを提供するアプローチです。ビデオでは、Carlaが開発者が特定のプロジェクトや目標を達成するために、より個別化されたサポートが必要であると述べています。

💡コミュニティの成長

コミュニティの成長は、関連する興味や目標を共有する人々のグループを拡大し、活性化するプロセスです。ビデオで、Jonanは開発者コミュニティの成長を形成し、ガイドするために開発者成功を活用する方法について語っています。

💡ROI（投資収益率）

ROIは、投資に対して得られたリターンの効率を測定する指標です。ビデオで、Christopherと他のパネリストは、開発者が使用する技術やツールに投資した際のROIについて議論しており、成功の定義をビジネスの成功に結びつけています。

💡フリクションロック

フリクションロックは、ユーザーが製品やサービスを使用する際に遭遇する障壁や困難を識別し、解決するプロセスです。ビデオで、Christopherは開発者体験の一環としてフリクションを特定し、減らすことの重要性について語っています。

Highlights

Kat introduces herself as leading the developer relations department at Hype, focusing on web3 clients and developer success.

Christopher Thomas talks about the challenge of convincing companies of the importance of developer relations and developer portals.

Carla shares her experience in devrel for over six years and her current role as program manager for developer relations at Mural.

Jonan, a seasoned devrel professional, mentions his approach to hiring generalists in developer relations.

Discussion on what developer success means, highlighting different perspectives on its importance and impact.

The panel explores the unique challenges and opportunities in web3 for developer success.

The concept of developer success is compared to customer success, emphasizing the importance of supporting developers beyond just using tools.

The panel debates whether developer success should be a direct target or an outcome of providing valuable tools and support.

Insights into how developer success roles might involve both ensuring the success of individual developers and identifying market opportunities.

The importance of aligning developer success with business success to demonstrate real value.

Discussion on the evolving definition of developer success and its relation to developer experience and customer success.

The panel touches on practical steps and metrics to measure and achieve developer success.

A debate on whether developer success is about easing the coding process or helping developers achieve their broader goals.

The panel considers the impact of developer success on retaining engagement and amplifying community voices.

Final thoughts on the contextual nature of developer success and its varying importance across different platforms and use cases.

Transcripts

[Applause]

and let's make this a conversation as

well so if you have questions then you

know raise your hand we don't have to

wait till the end

so perhaps we could each introduce

yourselves from stage left to Stage

right just briefly that'll be that'd be

great thanks so cat hey everyone I'm Kat

I think you already know me I literally

spoke like half an hour ago

I leave the developer relations

department at hype we are an agency and

we're working primarily with web3

clients so we're kind of shifting a lot

of what we're doing right now into

developer success it's been a pretty fun

Journey

um but yeah that's me

hi I'm Christopher Thomas I'm CEO of

promofix which is a consultancy that

specializes in developer portals

um and for a very long time I've been

telling customers like you need to get

devrel people you know you need

developer relations

um It's A Hard Sell

um and

um and the other thing I see often is oh

no I'm already going into the pitch so

we do that portals for

hi everyone I'm Carla I've been in

devrel for six maybe seven years by now

so it's in a bit of different things I'm

currently program manager for Deborah at

mural which by the way we're hiring

um and really excited to to be here I

have some opinions some thoughts maybe

different maybe similar we'll see

um but yeah let's have a conversation

and have some fun

and jonan I'm jonan I am a devrel

professional

yeah that's pretty good right

I have been in devrel for ages I don't

actually I could probably figure it out

but

um yeah and and by the way I'm hirable

you did by the way we're hiring yeah if

anyone needs to get some professionals

okay well thank you very much I think

for me the first question is the

fundamental one

come on what is developer success and

Kristoff you look ready to go yeah yeah

I'm already

so when we had our first conversation

um you had a completely different

conception of developer success than I

started with because I was looking at it

from

okay we need to get real like I because

we see customers

um that are investing in API management

spend a lot of we mostly work with

Enterprise so they'll they basically

come and say we've seen all this cool

stuff and all these cool digital native

companies doing like making lots of

money with apis we want a piece of that

and like how do how do we do that uh we

I guess we need apis let's buy an API

management solution buy an API

Management Solutions like they're still

not coming okay I guess we need a Dev

portal okay let's build a Dev portal and

then sometimes we've had some that are

really successful and some it's like

still not coming and then and then like

now what and I think that we need to

shift this conversation from

um like this being a tool conversation

like where you know you buy tool and

it's going to magically solve all your

problems uh or uh yeah you're going to

spend a lot of money on on death rally

you're not really sure where you're

going to end up with to okay how can we

get real about success and how do we how

do you turn this into a business success

so now but I had the conversation with

you and then I was like oh this is

apparently already a thing and then I

started Googling oh there's lots of

people hiring for developer success

um and that that's yeah I think this is

what is coming and especially with with

recession and I think this is really

important that we get real about the

value of what we're doing and that we we

get some outcomes

so what does it mean in web 3 if it's

anything different cap

so I think from for web3 I mean that's

kind of what I talked about in the talks

today like we need developers to come

onto the platform to make products that

are actually successful because that's

going to bring users and the more users

you're bringing the more developers you

bring so for me developer success

um it's about it's not just about like

helping them be successful with the

protocol that you're building for them

to get started on it's helping them be

successful in a much in a much bigger

way than that you know they're building

a product they have an ultimate goal in

mind and we want to bring them to that

goal we don't just want to be like okay

here well here's how to use our protocol

here's some really good docs some really

good content of our protocol we want to

help them actually guide them into

making their their product a successful

product and that's going to really just

help with web3 especially just help the

protocol the underlying protocol because

you know if like new developers are

coming on and building on a blockchain

and you know they're they're not

successful then nothing changes in the

blush in because your that developer

isn't making money for the blockchain

you know just having the project it's

the users that are making the money for

both the chin on for the dev so what we

need to do is just like make this

developer successful so the underlying

protocol is successful and I think that

applies to just like traditional devrel

as well because if more developers are

successfully using your products then

other developers are going to see this

product and be like yo okay that's

that's obviously doing well it can scale

to the success let's give it a go

great so Carla you worked in a company

that had to developer success Department

at outsystems and there's a very

Enterprise focused big money deals kind

of

company it wasn't named like that back

then but

um but yeah pretty much I think

for me I see developers success kind of

way too facets right in one way is we

really want uh like we keep saying

Empower developers to be successful uh

but now it's becoming more and more

trendy so the other side is looking at

this is more formal type of role and I

draw quite a few parallels between

developer success and customer success

and I think it's also kind of exciting

to see that now we're starting to learn

from other Industries and functions that

have been here for longer

and it's for me I see it as more okay

there's maybe some strategic accounts

that do need a more High touch

kind of support

where we want to make sure that those

developers really are set for Success

not just being able to use the tools

that we have but in achieving their own

goals through using the tools so it goes

a bit further than just success than

just support it goes really in to enable

them to be successful at their own goals

so inject Jordan like if you're building

a team

and you have a certain number of head

count

how do you factor develop a success into

that is is it a cross-functional

responsibility that every person on the

team has or do you just

slap someone down say you're the

developer success person now

I generally don't I try to hire

generalists I think that like all of the

various spheres of devrel

are equally important and people will

gravitate towards the things that they

find most fulfilling so like I try and

hire people such that they find purpose

in their work because then they're

happier and we have better teams but I

think that developer success

um I've always thought of as fitting

like either it is customer success and

rebranded because an executive is like

well we are a developed Product Company

so you're there for developer success I

read it on the internet it makes people

famous so

um or or else it's part of in my mind or

was until I spoke with Carl last night

part of developer experience

and this argument actually holds a lot

of weight with me that

um it's actually a subset of that kind

of customer success role that this is

not just about the fact that your

customers are developers it's also about

this kind of

um White Glove VIP focus of the

developer success role and even using

that to kind of prune the community or

well prune makes sound like you're

offing people but don't don't don't

prune them that way but kind of shape

the growth

um you know like you you were trimming a

bush that is growing in you can control

the growth of your community to grow it

in the Direction You Want by activating

potential advocates in your community

Through developer success and that's the

part that's really interesting to me so

in answer to your original question

aside from my um tirade sorry

um I think like I I would be open to the

idea of hiring someone who is entirely

focused on developer success and I would

also expect it to be each team member's

responsibility

like I'm I'm still

not sure we've

what is the day-to-day of someone doing

developer success what do you sit down

and do

um

I I mentioned it jokingly earlier is

support with extra steps but it's kind

of the way that I see it is that you

know that a developer whether they're in

a community or a customer you know what

they're trying to achieve you understand

the use case they're they're going for

and you're just giving them that extra

bit of a push to find the way to do it

with

the product you have

so for seven years now I've been

explaining people that develop developer

experience is the universe of friction

and it's like it's a mind bomb it's like

okay so what does that really mean like

okay let's let's go and make a friction

lock let's figure out what are the

problems and like like let's try to get

rid of them but that implies that

there's a single Journey really or or it

really reduces the amount of Journeys

that you're imagining and that it is

really about getting people to use your

technology

where I believe that's what we're doing

here is not so much about getting people

to use technology it's about giving them

building blocks to build experience to

build digital experiences and

um and those building blocks are not

just apis they're not just as the case

either there might be really really

simple things like a widget or a QR code

or something like QR codes you can just

print them out and put them in your in

your physical shop and start a digital

journey and and too much we're so much

hooked like hang up on our you know we

we are building this thing for

developers that we're forgetting that

what the real goal is is to to

facilitate this this Automation and this

this journey creation and to create

better experiences for customers in the

end and um so I think developer success

refocuses on how are we going to get

people the right experience for the

right person how can we resegment our

markets from like what we used to

originally says like you have developers

and you have business push on us to okay

I've got

like we have got one customer that has

like a bicycle

widget I don't know if it works I don't

know how big a deal it is for them but I

find it fascinating that they have like

they've been thinking about mobility and

people selling bicycles and how they can

have a piece of that market and so in

how can you have personas for

but the kind of experiences that are

being built rather than for the roles

that they're playing in in your system I

think that's that's I think the switch

that's happening and I think what

developer success Engineers or whatever

developer success people what they'll do

is partially first just doing the job

and helping people to get them to

success maybe look at the Enterprise

people or you know the big accounts make

sure that they're successful but also

start looking for like what are kind of

a little bit of a product development

what are really our our markets for our

Integrations that we're doing and like

outside of the digital space where your

your digital product is your product but

like The Wider world where the

Enterprise world where the digital

product is a complementary products to

your main thing uh how how do you

actually get them to success and how how

do they get Roi on these Investments

that they've been making

foreign

I have a thought about this actually

around that Roi thing and I I think it's

a conversation we have a lot in Denver

communities but I I want a great up here

again that like it's right there in the

title the developer success is not about

you

it's not about you not about like

we're all gonna die someday right

who's

excited to have maximized shareholder

value on their grade stuff or any not me

right like we're not here for that we're

we're all here in this room bound

together by the fact that we want to

make more developers and we want to help

those developers be successful in the

world right

foreign

and so my point I guess is that if you

keep that as the primary focus and you

define success by what that developer

defines as success and you you carefully

uh Target those members of your

community who are most active most

likely to share the news you can

generate this uh you know

self-sustaining exponential Network

effect around your community and and

thereby you probably will continue to

get a paycheck but but if you make the

paycheck the goal I think you get it

upside down a little bit

pigeon wait wait for the mic

hey so I I really like what you had to

say there my one question is how do you

translate kind of Upstream that

developer success is essentially a

moving Target like a lot of times you

know people say oh we're so we're

setting our goals for the entire year

here in January and we think developer

success is X and you learn through the

year that it's also Y and Z like how do

you translate that to say hey c-level

folks

um this is not a static thing this is an

organic thing it's going to change as we

learn more about our community as we

learn more about the developers using

what we're giving to them

yeah that's not just for Joe that's for

everybody yeah I um we were just talking

about this outside a moment ago about

like goal setting every company who's

like so we're going to plan for uh 2035

right now and we're gonna need that

strategy deck tomorrow right and what

you do in my experience is you pin to an

outcome we're going here where are we

going we're gonna what does it look like

when we have achieved developer success

and ideally developer success

um strategies activities those move

but you have a pretty easy case to make

to an executive team that you chose a

different path because you decided that

that the path to the goal was more

successful in this case we know that uh

talking to the rust Community

counter-intuitively despite us being a

devops company which should be focused

on the go language that our rust content

is killing in and that developers out

there want to use rust and we can make

them successful using rust this way and

it turns out those people are like super

big Advocates of our our apis in the

community so we get that Community super

engaged we hold big rust parties we

throw Ferris around where's Ferris do we

have Ferris in the audience out here

where's Lily we need Ferris up here but

the I think pinning it to the outcome is

um has been my strategy but I'm very

curious to hear what you all think

I think

that I completely agree with focusing on

the the outcome but I think also we're

there's two ways of of kind of measuring

right you either fall into having more

kind of financial

um

targets and things that you want to

achieve or you can focus and that's kind

of where I would see developer success

more on the health and the satisfaction

of the developers right and that's

something that will constantly change

because the needs of the developers will

evolve through time there you they start

using your product to do something and

then that has evolved so it needs to

evolve with it so I think that is a good

way to to measure it and to pay

attention to and to cater towards that

and it's also a strong argument because

then you're looking at retention because

if you're still fulfilling their needs

developers customers they will say which

means more ARR which then makes the

execs happy

do you want to begin

I I have to say I have something to pick

in on that because

[Music]

um

I think there's this concept of of

obliquity and maybe that's one for the

book club

um but that there are certain goals that

you cannot achieve by trying to aim for

them directly

like for example trying to make a lot of

money

like it's going to land you in jail so

so the way you make a lot of money is by

doing other things that happen to be

valuable for other people and then make

you a lot of money so I think one

question to ask is is developer success

one of those things is that something we

should be aiming for directly do we

really need to aim for developer

happiness or this is maybe controversial

maybe that's some controversy that you

asked for but

um okay and I'm not saying we should

make people unhappy of course not

unhappiness is probably an anti-goal but

it's happiness really a goal like

because this this is this is what

sometimes you see in offices like oh

yeah we're gonna put in a kicker table

and we're going to do all this other

stuff and you know yeah yeah maybe but

really is that really valuable for them

so you're asking if we need free range

devs or uh

I I think it's it's this if you are

trying to Target directly making people

happy it's kind of like trying to

it's with a lot of things like that also

like in relationships if you try to get

a relationship it's not going to work

because people feel manipulated and and

I think it's something similar could

also be something similar here is that

if you're really trying to pamper

developers so that they're going to

choose your product that's necessarily

you're manipulating them and you're

treating them not with respect so what

is the path that you can create for them

to have business success so they can go

to their manager because they're also

risking to be fired in this economy how

are you going to make them succeed in a

business way and that that might mean

like not giving them the latest fanciest

technology but giving them a tool that

just gives them a shortcut so they can

get to the value much faster and and it

disconnects also with looking at

developers uh Laura sets this

interesting thing from um from the dev

portal Awards and that's one of the key

things we've we're learning this year

from Deathpool Awards is that this

business and developer Persona is

merging and is becoming a technologist

Persona and we've had a customer they

talked about business developers they

called it but it's the same thing it's

like instead of looking at people like

oh yeah you're developers so we're going

to give you some developer tools or

you're you're a business person so we're

going to talk to you

um like can we give them like treats

both of them with respect and not try to

titillate them and not try to manipulate

them by either blah blah marketing BS or

you know shiny toys but say like okay

you need a job you need to do your job

you need to do it as fast as possible

how are we going to help you do that

I think this is to me is the main

difference between just developer

enablement and developer success because

you know any what we do in devrel is

helping developers code that is

ultimately what it comes down to because

if we want developers to code that's

kind of the end of it

um developer success to me is all the

other stuff outside of the code like

devs want a code they can code they know

what they're coding and what they are

lacking or things like you know like

marketing support or their business

goals or just like things that are a lot

outside of coding and while I think

developer relations can own developer

success because we are the people who

are talking to developers and

understanding you know how to like

actually communicate goals and stuff

with them I don't actually see it as a

complete devrel responsibility at all I

think I mean I myself and most Dev rails

I know don't really know how to make

like a successful product actually

successful I know how to make a product

I know how to make a good product but I

don't know how to make it be used by

people so I think the whole point of

developer success is is to build on top

of the code that they already have

that's our already your job and that's

where I see it as new which is like

something that you mentioned

so interesting what you said it just

made me think that it really is

obliquity because you said is it our job

to make it easier for people to code so

if you believe your job is is to make it

easier for people to code you're going

to do stuff to make people code but

there might be another way to get them

to the end point that they need that

takes less efforts less money is better

to me it's easier to maintain and so on

and so on that does not involve writing

custom code but as long as you believe

your job is to make it easier to code

you're going to be making it easier to

code which might actually be the wrong

thing and that's that's an example of

obliquity

um there there is a question in the

audience yes

yes now it's my chance waiting for 10

minutes no okay so um you when you when

you open that panel you said that you

want to talk about how we put this into

practice right and um you have talked a

lot about like how to bring value to uh

to developers but and and I really loved

the question you know

going there and say

what does it look like if you have

achieved developer success so I would

really love you to talk more about like

the four of you sitting there what does

it look like if you have achieved

developer success and like let's say in

six months from now how do you you know

how do you measure it how do you say

this was our impact in developer success

our developers are now more successful

we have brought value to them so making

it more practical for us to really take

away some

some stuff and ideas would be really

cool we were just enjoying talking words

at you though

we were we were very entertaining to us

I think a lot of people like measurement

is kind of beaten but but a lot of

people measure like um first deploy or

like first successful API request is

like devrel did a thing and you're

talking about like awareness and

acquisition in those steps and what I

think if like you're practically going

to implement these things you make it a

part of your regimen to understand where

the community is getting stuck where

they're dropping off do scroll tracking

on your documentation know that people

when they get to the fourth exercise

stop proceeding with that page eighty

percent of the time and change it and

iterate a B test towards something where

you get people to continue through that

and so you are you are going through

stack Overflow first thing in the

morning all together hey this is an

interesting one I found you make it a

team activity everyone go through stack

Overflow now and what did we learn today

class about the the questions we saw on

stack Overflow where are people getting

stuck stuck in our flow did they stop

using this tutorial at a specific point

and what can we do to change that so I

see the developer success part of that

as the things that come after right we

we have the people they're using the

product are they are they happy here are

they successful long term and I don't

think that like like unhappy is kind of

part of the developer brand I don't

think that like developer happiness is

is a thing you can measure in that way

but I do think that it matters that that

people maintain engagement this is about

like retaining the engagement that

you're already generating with your

community and amplifying your most um I

guess like uh persistent voices in the

community this is my my take and I want

to hear you say words about it me yes

you specifically because you are very

smart on this thing

um well I I agree with all of that and I

think a way to kind of sum it up is I

would look a churn you'd want flow turn

because that means that you're still

providing value developers are getting

value from the tool and if you're doing

then a good job you are if as like I was

mentioning as developers evolve so does

the tool so does the value that you're

you're giving and that means people

don't leave they won't stop using it so

I think that for me would be the the

main one I'll go more meta what is the

original intent why they came to your

developer program

and did you fulfill that Foster then

they were expecting to for it to be

fulfilled

because if if they come for if they come

to like like for for Miro

um what is it that that developers

trying to do are they building a

business an app for their business or

they're building

um like a new product then if it's if

it's an app for their business then

probably there's like a common use case

that that is hidden somewhere under

there can you identify what is that

common use case and can you make tools

that make that much much easier than

writing custom code

and that's all great but the question

was

the opposite of going more meta yes it

was like what are the practical steps

are we taking them so cat if you've got

something to say on that I'd love to

hear I mean I feel like what I'm

learning from from this panel is the

developer success is the same as

developer attainment but as the resident

web 3 person in web 3 is a very simple

thing to measure because what you want

from a protocol from developers who are

building on your platform are users

ultimately because users get you like

directly making money so the success for

developers is how many users the

developer has and that's a super simple

thing and I go into developer success

from the blockchain standpoint because

it's like okay we have hundreds of

developers building on this platform but

none of them are actually building

anything decent Let's help them do that

so for me it's very clear like from a

from a blockchain web 3 idea what

developer success is what I feel like

from this panel maybe it's the same as

developer retainment I feel like that's

kind of what we're talking about so I

would love to hear just from like

traditional web free what is the

difference between success and just

keeping them

do you mind if first we go to the

audience because I would love to I would

love to hear from people in the audience

I have one here who oh okay well so can

we keep it focused on practical steps if

possible yeah yeah so my question is a

little bit about because we're talking

about developer success and I hear a lot

like how easy it is to onboard or how

easy it is to kind of continue the

journey but isn't developer success

about how easy me as a developer can

achieve a goal yes that let's say the

CEO comes to me like I want to build

this application and then I can really

shine to my boss later it's like I built

this in two days so my journey could

have been terrible to get there but the

what I have

isn't that the success or what would you

say then but what does it take and and

whatever and I I want to give Brandon a

chance to answer that if that's okay

because I know he's itching to speak I I

think I can provide a few practical

examples of things

um one if your platform is growing

expanding you have new offerings you

want to make sure that developers that

can get value out of those offerings

understand that they're coming and how

to use them and how to implement them

into their current workflow so keeping

developers apprised and that comes down

to one of the things mentioned earlier

Market segmentation understand who's

using what and why if you don't

understand that you won't be able to

define success for them and provide them

a journey that makes them successful

moving forward another example would be

once you have those segments say okay

here's someone that's using this uh this

specific product or part of our service

and we can tell by the way they're

interacting with it that there's a

certain pattern or use case that maybe

they haven't optimized if you can

identify that then you can go to them

and say we noticed you're doing x y and

Z but if you do this other thing you'll

be able to cut out these two steps and

it'll save you money and that's

something also that thing comes to

developer success it's not all about

churn and money it's about ongoing value

right so find ways to actually help

people spend less money on your platform

that's extremely beneficial to them and

that's only something that you can

really do when you have that product

inside so those are just a few things

from my experience that are practical

and help make developers successful in

the long run now we can chat more later

if you want to get more specific into

the types of products that you're

representing but hopefully that helps

and sorry to steal the Thunder David so

leave it at the middle

so maybe I'm going to simplify it too

much but

developers don't come to your platform

to work through your process and your

right developers have a job and they've

been told to solve a problem and they're

looking for the fastest way to solve

that problem

that's what they're there for

and to me that's developer success can

they come and get the answers they want

to solve the problem that they have

because their problem is not working

through your tutorial

their problem is they've got their

engineering manager breathing down their

neck saying I need this solution to this

problem by tomorrow or you're you know

in the case of if you work at Twitter or

you're out of here to tomorrow right

um so I mean maybe that's simplifying it

too much but that's to me that's

developer success am I allowing

developers to come to my platform and

solve their problem and move on rather

than work through my documentation and

do all my tutorials like that's that's

all of that is if they have time right

that's a board developer

a developer that's on my platform to

solve their problem is the one that I

want to help because they're the ones

that are going to come back

I don't know that I want to solve that

person's problem

um

I I think

we'll explain myself here okay

I'm looking at like the Quick Serve

restaurant management approach to doing

developer success

if I come to use your platform today

because my engineer manager is yelling

at me and I'm trying to solve an

immediate problem I will solve the

immediate problem and maybe go away

forever

I think that

it's important if you have a developer

Product Company to remember that many

people still code for fun

they still code for fun and they have

their own goals and their own dreams of

what they are building and the platforms

that I end up uh building with at work

or the things that I build with code

they very often collide with the weird

thing that I learned about at a Meetup

that I thought was fun and I

experimented with and I came to play

with that thing and so for me success is

not like in and out it's a transactional

relationship I'm not trying to build a

transactional relationship with the

developers in our community I'm trying

to build long lasting friendships I want

to be there to support them throughout

their careers so I I think that this

focus on like getting the engineer to

stop or the the manager to stop yelling

at me is maybe like

blinding us to the fact that developers

code for any number of reasons and

finding the ways that they are failing

with your products and platforms is is a

long-term exercise these are people that

you're maintaining for for final

thoughts I disagree

okay but true contextually I think this

is contextual so if you're building

developer tools and you're trying to

like what most of you are probably doing

because devrel typically is is about

building developer tools you're right

but I think that if you're if you have

if your API or your developer platform

is a compliment to something else like

you're selling services and you have an

API then that's a different story

because people don't come to like you

know people don't code

um

like messaging apis for fun I think

right not really they're they're doing

it because you gotta be kidding me how

many people made silly twilio

I think most of the time they want to

get something done and if you can get

out of the way and get it done faster I

think

um so I think it really depends like if

you're building a community and you're

trying to build a developer brand yes

then then you're right I think but if

you're if you're like part of an

Enterprise machine where they're just

trying to make this thing make money

because they've made this huge

investment I think it's a different

story I'm gonna have to give the final

word to Carla and cats in closing so

Carl did you have any thoughts

um I I understand uh

like the having or people either want it

quickly or not but for me that goes that

we all have different styles of learning

and so the developers and there's some

people that want to take the time to go

through documentation there's people

that want to see a quick video there's

people that just want to ask someone and

get a quick answer and I think then it's

our job to provide different styles

different formats that is inclusive for

all the different types of learning and

getting to the solution they need

cut yeah so I think what I'm learning is

a developer success doesn't need to be

on every platform

um I think for the example that you give

it's you know that that's a developer

relations job that's something that

we're already doing we're trying to make

it super easy for someone to come in

build on it and go away you know that is

what we're doing but I think for

developer success if you if you want

your developers to be successful in the

long run if they if they have more to do

than just integrating your your platform

into what they're doing then that's when

developer success is really important

but I don't think it's something that we

necessarily need to use for every single

protocol kind of language you said

okay well thank you and I I

there's a rule in

um drama that you can't put a box of

cookies on the table without mentioning

before the end of the play so what's the

deal I've got chocolates who wants

chocolates don't make me go home with

them so that's that's the deal so look

Let's uh thank our panel and uh it feels

like a conversation where we barely

scratched the service so yeah let's

carry it on so thank you very much

[Applause]