Gary Stevenson

Summary

In an engaging podcast interview, former City trader Gary Stevenson discusses his incredible rags-to-riches story. Growing up working-class in East London, Gary had an innate gift for math and a relentless drive to succeed. He landed a coveted trading job where his competitive nature fueled him to become the world's top trader, earning millions. However, Gary soon realized the toxic, high-pressure environment was harming his mental health. After an emotional breakdown, he found redemption through a simpler life in Japan and helping others via his popular economics YouTube channel. Though remnants of his past ambition remain, Gary has achieved more balance caring for both himself and society.

Takeaways

• 😀 Gary grew up poor but was gifted at math from a young age and dreamed of working in finance
• 📈 He became the youngest and most successful trader at City Bank, making millions, but felt unfulfilled
• 🤯 The trading floor attracted dysfunctional people and took a toll on Gary's mental health
• 😞 He eventually burned out, sank into depression, and questioned the value of obsessing over money
• 🧘‍♂️ Finding love and spending a year depressed in Tokyo helped Gary start focusing less on himself
• 👫 Caring about others and helping people has been key to his recovery and finding purpose
• 🔁 Though reformed, Gary still thinks like a trader and wants to educate people on economics
• 📚 He wrote a book documenting his incredible story from poverty to riches and back
• 😌 Gary has more balance now but still struggles not to overwork himself
• ❤️ He believes you can care about yourself while also caring about others - it's not either/or

Q & A

What is the main theme of Gary Stevenson's new book, The Trading Game?

The main theme revolves around Gary's journey from a working-class background to becoming the world's most successful financial trader, his subsequent burnout, and his efforts to highlight the inbuilt inequalities of the world economy.

How did Gary Stevenson's background influence his career in finance?

Raised in a working-class family with financial constraints, Gary's exceptional talent in mathematics and competitive spirit drove him to excel in the field of finance, despite not having any connections or knowledge of the financial world initially.

What motivated Gary Stevenson to eventually walk away from his successful trading career?

After achieving significant success and facing burnout, Gary was influenced by the inequalities he observed in the economy and decided to devote his talents to addressing these issues, shifting his focus from personal gain to societal improvement.

How does Gary Stevenson describe the environment on the city trading floor?

He describes the trading floor as a dysfunctional yet familial environment filled with a diverse group of individuals, including math geniuses, overfed public school boys, and borderline psychopaths, all of whom contributed to the high-stress and competitive atmosphere.

What realization did Gary have about money and success after becoming the world's most successful financial trader?

Gary realized that despite his immense financial success, the pursuit of wealth and recognition did not bring him happiness or fulfillment. This led him to question the true value of money and success, and the impact of his work on society.

How did Gary Stevenson's perspective on the economy change after his first big loss as a trader?

The loss prompted Gary to delve deeper into understanding the economy beyond textbooks, leading him to a more human-centric view that considers the financial struggles of individuals and families, which ultimately influenced his analysis and trading decisions.

What impact did moving to Japan have on Gary Stevenson's mental health and perspective on life?

Living in Japan, a culture that emphasizes care for others, helped Gary to heal from his depression and reassess his values. It shifted his focus from self to community, aiding in his recovery and reshaping his approach to life and work.

What does Gary Stevenson hope to achieve with his new book and his current work?

Through his book and educational efforts on economics, Gary aims to share his insights on the financial world, highlight the societal impacts of economic inequality, and encourage a more equitable approach to economic policy and personal success.

How did Gary Stevenson's relationship and interactions with others change after leaving the trading world?

After leaving trading, Gary began to value relationships and human connections more deeply, moving away from valuing people based on their financial success to appreciating them for their intrinsic qualities and the kindness they offer.

What lessons does Gary Stevenson's journey offer about the pursuit of success and happiness?

Gary's journey illustrates that true happiness and fulfillment do not solely come from financial success or professional achievements but from meaningful relationships, contributing to society, and finding balance in life.

Outlines

00:00

😊 Introducing Gary Stevenson and his journey to becoming a top trader

The podcast host Sam introduces this week's guest Gary Stevenson. Gary grew up poor in East London but became the youngest and most successful trader in the City of London. He later burned out and left trading to highlight economic inequality. His new book documents this story.

05:00

😟 Feeling out of place at the elite London School of Economics

Gary talks about attending the prestigious but elite London School of Economics. He felt out of place among wealthy students but was motivated to work hard and beat them academically since he was talented at math.

10:01

😲 Winning a trading job through a card game that tested Gary's math skills

Gary explains how he won an internship at an investment bank through a special card game that tested his math and probability skills. He became obsessed with mastering the game in order to secure the highly coveted job.

15:03

😐 Coping with the intense hazing culture as a new trader

Gary describes the intense hazing rituals and hyper competitive culture traders face. He coped due to his supreme confidence and strong desire to prove himself compared to the dysfunctional traders around him.

20:04

🤔 Questioning the meaning of profiting from economic disasters

A turning point came when Gary made huge profits by betting on natural disasters worsening the economy. He suppressed moral questions over profiting from tragedy. This likely contributed to his later mental health crisis.

25:06

😕 Using human stories to understand economic hardship

Gary's colleague Bill taught him to understand economics through people's financial situations instead of textbooks. Gary analyzed friends' money struggles and realized the economy was failing regular people.

30:06

👟 Staring at worn shoes during a reprimand made Gary want to quit

A pivotal moment in deciding to quit was when Gary stared at holes in his shoes during a workplace tongue-lashing. This symbolized his unhappiness and made him question why he was still trading.

35:07

😥 Sinking into depression after being forced to stay in Japan

After Gary announced he was quitting, his employer transferred him to Japan and wouldn't let him leave. Being isolated there with no support caused Gary to sink deeply into depression.

40:09

😌 Making non-banker friends and embracing Japanese group culture aided healing

While depressed in Tokyo, Gary made non-finance friends and embraced Japanese group culture valuing collective joy. This shift to focusing on others' happiness began his healing process.

45:10

😀 Still trading, but now helping others understand economics too

Gary still legally trades, feeling it's acceptable with his talent if he also educates regular people for free via YouTube. He concludes selfishness and altruism can coexist.

Keywords

💡Mental Health

Mental health refers to the psychological and emotional well-being of an individual. In the context of the video, it is a central theme as it explores the mental health challenges faced by Gary Stevenson, a highly successful financial trader who experiences a burnout and mental health crisis due to the intense and competitive nature of his work. His journey highlights the impact of high-stress environments on mental health and the importance of addressing and managing these issues for overall well-being.

💡Trading

Trading, particularly in the financial context, involves buying and selling securities or commodities in financial markets. Gary Stevenson's story is deeply entwined with trading, as he becomes the youngest and most successful financial trader in the world. His experiences on the trading floor, dealing with the pressures and challenges of the profession, serve as a lens through which the script explores themes of ambition, success, and the eventual toll on mental health.

💡Inequality

Inequality in this script refers to the disparities in wealth, opportunities, and living standards within society. Gary Stevenson's work and subsequent advocacy focus on highlighting and addressing the inbuilt inequalities of the global economy, which he became intimately familiar with during his career in trading. His journey from a working-class background to financial success and then choosing to spotlight economic inequalities underlines the script's thematic exploration of social justice and economic disparity.

💡Burnout

Burnout is a state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion caused by excessive and prolonged stress. It is vividly depicted in Gary's story as he reaches a breaking point due to the relentless demands of his career in trading. His experience underscores the script's focus on the consequences of high-pressure work environments and the critical importance of recognizing and addressing burnout for mental and physical health.

💡City of London

The City of London is a historic financial district of London, home to the Bank of England and numerous global financial institutions. It serves as a significant setting in the script, symbolizing the pinnacle of financial success to which Gary aspires and eventually attains. The City represents not only Gary's career ambitions but also the broader themes of ambition, power, and the complexities of the financial industry.

💡Working-Class Background

A working-class background refers to coming from a family or social setting characterized by manual labor jobs and often lower income. In the script, Gary's origins in a working-class family in East London play a crucial role in shaping his aspirations, values, and perspectives. His journey from this background to global financial success, and his reflections on inequality and economic disparity, highlight the script's exploration of social mobility and class dynamics.

💡Economic Analysis

Economic analysis in the script refers to Gary's use of his understanding of economics to predict market movements and make trading decisions. His approach, which combines mathematical skill with observations of social and economic trends, illustrates a practical application of economic theory. This aspect of the story emphasizes the importance of economic literacy in understanding and navigating the complexities of the global economy.

💡Self-Reflection

Self-reflection is the examination of one's own thoughts, feelings, and motivations. It is a key aspect of Gary's journey as he begins to question his life choices, values, and the impact of his work on himself and society. This process of self-reflection leads to significant changes in his life direction, underscoring the script's themes of personal growth, ethical considerations, and the search for meaning beyond material success.

💡Competitiveness

Competitiveness in the script is depicted through Gary's drive to excel in school, trading, and later in advocating for economic equality. It showcases his innate desire to succeed and be the best in his endeavors. This trait propels him to great heights in his career but also contributes to his eventual burnout, illustrating the double-edged nature of competitiveness in achieving success and its potential personal costs.

💡Recovery

Recovery in the script refers to Gary's process of healing and finding new purpose after leaving the trading world due to a mental health crisis and burnout. It encompasses his efforts to address his mental health issues, rediscover his values, and engage in advocacy work focused on economic inequality. Recovery is portrayed as a journey of self-discovery and redefining success, highlighting the script's message of resilience and the possibility of positive change following adversity.

Highlights

I had a gift when it came to maths. I won a few math competitions growing up.

I was super aware there's money problems in my family. I didn't want to ask for money because I knew they didn't have much.

At LSE, I thought university would be like American Pie. But the students were there playing chess - I couldn't believe it.

When people realized I did well academically despite my background, it motivated me. I wanted to show them what I could do.

I won a trading job through a card game that tested math skills. I became obsessed with memorizing the game.

The trading floor was full of totally insane people. But I knew that if they could do it, why not me?

My girlfriend was the first person to like me for me, not my external success. It made me question why I was doing this.

When I made money betting economies would suffer, I realized how messed up it was. But I suppressed those feelings.

I entered a mental health crisis from suppressing ideas about inequality and my responsibility to help fix the economy.

In Japan, receiving kindness and care from people who didn't know I was rich started to slowly heal me.

Finding myself freed me to care about others. Now caring about others makes me enjoy life more.

Younger problematic versions of yourself still exist inside you. But with wisdom, you can take care of them.

I still see the world through a trading lens. But now I share that knowledge freely to help others understand the economy.

We can be selfish yet still care about others. We're big enough to do both, and need both to be a complete person.

If you stay away from consumerism and commercialism, it gives you freedom.

Transcripts

[Music]

hello and welcome to the reset a mental

health podcast without all the bollocks

I'm Sam Delany my guest this week is

Gary Stevenson The Economist writer

YouTuber and former city Trader Gary was

raised in a workingclass family in

ilford East London where money was

always tight but by his mid-20s he'd

become the youngest Trader in the city

of London and shortly afterwards the

most successful Financial Trader in the

world

by the time he was 30 he' burnt out

walked away from it all and devoted his

talents to highlighting the inbuilt

inequalities of the world economy that

he had seen up close his new book The

Trading game documents this incredible

story it's exciting like a British

version of The Wolf of Wall Street but

it's also a deeply human story about

ambition money inequality and all the

ethical conundrums that those things can

throw up suffice to say it's a story

about mental health too as it says in

the book The City trading floor was a

place where your colleagues were

dysfunctional maths Geniuses overfed

public school boys and borderline

Psychopaths yet they started to feel

like family where soon you were the

bank's most profitable Trader dealing in

nearly a trillion dollars a day where

you dreamt of numbers in your sleep and

then stopped sleeping at all I found

this chat with Gary engrossing inspiring

and educational and I hope you do too

Gary Stevenson welcome to the reset nice

to meet you nice to meet you too um

reading your book enjoying it um it is

it's thrilling exhilarating fascinating

dark at times um your story is

remarkable uh grew up in in Alford East

London sort of dreaming looking at

Canary wolf every night in the distance

and sort of dreaming like something in a

movie movie about one day working there

suppose my first question is you know

you're from a workingclass background

you didn't know anyone who'd worked in

that world or been anywhere near that

world so what do you think gave you that

sort of belief from such a young age

that that you would um end up

there I think ever since I was a kid

really I was

always probably a bit in modest to say

it but I had kind of a gift really when

it came to maths I was always like very

very good at maths

i w a few Mass competitions growing up

um I was always a sort of like the the

top kid in school really if I'm allow to

sort of say that and um I got into a

grammar school I went to a grammar

school Ila County High School which had

more sort of like more sort of middle

class kids middle class backgrounds um

ilford is a very South Asian area ilford

County high is a very Indian School and

um had just loads of sort of Indian

mates basically and they just had really

good knowledge of what were the good

jobs what he supposed to do um um and

you know if you're sort of the smartest

kid in school I just sort of figured

yeah why not me I guess yeah and was

that something that your parents sort of

encouraged you in as

well I think my mom especially she

recognized I was very good at maths very

early on um and she did sort of

encourage that but really my parents are

not sort of super like do well at school

do well at school types I think I just

sort of I was interested in it um I was

I think more than anything I was quite

comp comptitive kid really I wanted to

sort of be I was that kind of kid that

will make sure they're the top in the

class and then just stop working you

know I think that was that's what that

kind of annoying

kid uh but you're also really interested

in or had you know a lot of feelings

about money from an early age as

well um where you think that came

from yeah I write about that a bit in

the book I mean I was just super aware I

remember being super aware there's this

one story in the book book isn't there

of when um I was a kid and my parents

gave me a pound coin to go to the eso

garage and buy some lemonade and like I

dropped it and just spent what felt like

hours like looking for it like

scrabbling in the drains looking under

the cars and just going back home in

floods of Tears um I was just super

aware like the whole time I was a kid

that my parents didn't have a lot of

money that it was a problem for them um

I was I didn't want to ask for money

because I knew they didn't have much

money so like as soon as I could I got a

Pap around as soon as I because I got

like a a weekend job um and I think you

know you grow up in London you're just

aware of these things and it's expens

even back then it was an expensive place

to live and you see people around you

have got stuff that you don't have it's

sort of it's hard not to see it I guess

when you sort of moved up and you know

you did really well at school and then

you had the opportunity to go to

London's School of

Economics uh again did you feel like a

fish out of water

sir

um yes or no I remember so I did math

and economics at La school economics

which is the only uh subject in the math

department there so it's a lot of sort

of MTH geeky kids and um I don't know

about you when I was a like a teenager I

saw of I thought University was going to

be like American Pie you know and I

remember we went on this sort of like we

went on this like like uni trip to this

sort of fancy Lodge in the countryside

and I remember bringing a two L bottle

of vodka and I remember turning up to

like one of the like all of the students

are meeting in this one room and the guy

who opened the door just said you better

not spit any that on the floor and

they're all in there like playing chess

I could believe

it yeah they they were different types L

see for people who don't know it's um

it's a very elite University it's full

of like basically kids of of of

millionaires and multi

multi-millionaires sometimes

billionaires um but at the same time you

know the way I saw it was I can still be

the best at math I can still do the best

in my exams sort of that's sort of my

fullback you know as long as I can beat

all these guys no exams no matter how

much their dads pay for their education

then I I'll be all right it was that

almost like a bit of an incentive as

well the fact that you knew a lot of

these people were from very privileged

backgrounds and you were there based on

like this sort of incredible Talent you

had you know this this intelligence with

numbers and did that give extra

incentive to be the best and to beat the

others because you talk about this thing

always wanting to win

yeah well there's there's this one story

in a book so my first year at LC when I

was 19 that's when I got like my first

proper girlfriend and like I was I was

back in ilford she was one year below so

she was still in like high school and I

was like back in ilford like with my

girlfriend all the time like I was but

barely in school but I still got did

pretty well in my first year and then

suddenly in my second year like

everybody knew who I was and I was kind

of like confused about this and I asked

one of my friends like why does

everybody know I am because I got a good

grade but it wasn't like the best grade

like my mate got better than me and he

said yeah but nobody expected that from

you and I was like what was it I

couldn't really believe it and that sort

of that did motivate me to be like all

right we're gonna show them basically we

we're gonna show them what we can do and

I think that probably that probably has

been a theme for me like going through

even when I got into the city like I I

didn't really realize it until I got

into these places but you know there's

not a lot of kids from my sort of

background in LC or in the city

and the people there I think a lot of

them the way they justify themselves is

they just they just think we're thick

basically so kind of wanted to sort of

yeah make let them know that we're not

because because we're not you know I

don't know your background but you know

where I grew up there was a lot of smart

kids and it's there's a lot of

complicated reasons why they don't get

into places like the city yeah it's um

it's a good motivator when you're

treated with snobbishness or people

underestimate you look down on you it

can be a massive um motivator can't it

and um it is interesting that you say

that that they don't a lot of these

these kids from privileged backgrounds

tell themselves that it's not the

privilege it's it's just an an

intelligence that's Superior that gets

in there so it is a um it's a great

story the fact that you went and kind of

you know disproved that to so many

people and defied so many people's

expectations tell us a bit about how you

ended up being the the youngest City

Trader in in in in London yeah so I went

to LC and I kind of just naively thought

you smash up your exams you get a job I

thought that's how works the way it

actually works is you have to send like

30 cies and cover letters to like 30

different investment Banks asking for an

internship and um you know obviously a

lot of these kids at LC from very

privileged backgrounds that their

families have been kind of prepping them

for this so they'd all like they'd all

like play OBO in the Royal Albert Hall

or like B president of the junior United

Nations or like Trek the Sahara Desert

or something you know so and when I was

a teenager I was I was working at at DFS

and sofa shopping Beck pillows you know

what I mean to be glim MC in my spare

time so I was just like I couldn't

really believe it like I just like I

felt like he's a bit of a con basically

you know you you do all this work to get

all these grades and then you just

overall basically because you're from

the wrong background but one kid a guy

from Grimsby who I'm friend to him he um

who I had no idea who he was he was near

above me he came up to me in the library

one day and he just said you know City

Bank hires one Trader a year through a

card game which is basically a mass game

so like you know you should go and you

if you win this game you get a job and I

was like all right I couldn't believe it

Bas and so I just sort of became

obsessed with this one game like

memorizing everything about this game

you say card game literally a card game

literally a card game this is purely a

numbers game it's a special made deck of

cards which um penguin have given have

been printing them out so maybe we can

get you if you want especially made deck

of cards some are higher some are lower

you get one I get one there's like some

sort of common cards and we're basically

betting like through a trading system of

like what the total is going to be so if

I've got a high card I'm betting it's

high this kind of thing it's kind of a

poker style bluffing game with a kind of

like a trading mechanic but really I

just viewed it as a math game because

really it's a numbers game it's a pure

numbers game so you know I was good at

maths I just got down like memorized

this game went to the LSC round won that

went to the final and well you you have

read that bit I guess so you see that

the final was some complicated stuff

happened I don't want to spoiler it for

the reader but um eventually I was given

the job let's say the reader can see

what happened it's amazing stuff I mean

there were so many like points in your

story in your book that is like you're

watching it's been compared to W Ball

Street um

uh there it is Cinematic a lot of the

dramatic things that have happened in

your life and you must when you were

writing this book have thought Jesus

Christ what you know what a what a wild

ride I've I've been on and been through

and we haven't even got to the bit yet

where it's already really kicked in with

the lifestyle and all of that sort of

stuff what was it like when you first

entered that world because seems to me

from my question from what you told me

so far is that you always had a

self-belief and a self-confidence that

got you through any situation however

in Congress you felt there but did did

you know how weird was it when you

stepped into City trading

floor is a weird place so for people who

haven't seen a trading floor City Bank

is a massive massive bank it's an

American Bank so some people might not

be aware how big is one of the biggest

banks in the world and they're one of

the biggest trading banks in the world

the trading floor here in Canary Warth I

I still live quite near it massive

massive room there's these rows and rows

everybody's got like 10 screens massive

screens and like you can't see sort of

both sides at the same time just seems

like millions of people

um it's a weird space I think one of the

weirdest things about it is the sort of

the lingo the terminology like

everyone's you don't understand what

anybody's saying and sort of I turned up

and I was just kind of asking people

questions and nodding along I had no

idea what anybody was saying and um it

was kind of amazing to me that nobody

realized I didn't have any idea what was

going on but the whole way through it

like to say I I was a very confident

very competitive kid and I think you

know I had I'd sit I'd been the top at

LC I'd been the top you know my school

was growing up so I kind of

thought well I looked around me and you

know You' have read the book so you see

I assumed going in the trading floor was

going to be full of geniuses it turned

out it was kind of full of like just

totally insane people more than anything

else I looked around and I thought well

you know if these guys can do it yeah

why not me okay so this is an

interesting thing does working in the

city

send you insane or do you do you have to

be insane in I know that sounds like

that Naf joke you get on cups in offices

you have but there is something about

from a from my very sort of

two-dimensional perception of the of the

city which is based on TV shows and

movie depictions all the rest of it you

know it feels like you've got to be

pretty brutal at times heartless and

absolutely Relentless and there probably

is I mean you you use the word

Psychopathic uh in the book and there

probably is a lot of overlap in the

characteristics and so what I'm saying

is is there a natural filter that means

the people who end up there and Thrive

there have a sort of a kink in their

Persona or or their mentality or does it

just take people who are who are

otherwise well balanced and just drive

them in that

direction I think it's a bit of both I

think you know not everyone that goes

into the city is the same but it tends

to attract very very competitive people

especially we get when it comes to

trading a lot of very very competitive

young men because it's difficult to it's

it's very very difficult to get that job

the people who get into it have

generally been sort of prepping for a

long long time so these are the kind of

guys who have been kind of obsessed

about getting into that that world since

they were like 13 14 and often they've

sort of made a lot of sacrifices you

know they've been obsessing about

getting into it for a long

time but you know not everybody is

totally mad I think I mean a a big part

of the book is kind of my story of how

it affected me basically and it's a very

intense job it's very stressful I

remember like quite clearly a thing that

happened early on when I first started

being a Trader which was I was walking

through ilford exchange which is the

shopping mall on the top floor and we

walked past like a TV shop used to have

them back then and there were all the

TVs in the window and the News was on

and I could see something happen on the

news and I knew straight away like I'm

going to lose like like 200 Grand when I

woke in in the morning right and I think

this living this kind of life where

anything can happen at any moment that's

going to hit you it does affect you and

the guys who I was on the trading floor

with there was kind of like this sort of

hazing I remember the my first day on

the floor I went when as a full-time

employee I went to get lunch at the

canteen and I came back and the guy next

to me was just staring at me and he was

like where have you been and I was like

I've been to get lunch he was like where

did you go I was like uh canteen what

did you eat uh like sausage and beans

and then he goes to me I've worked here

for 10 years and I have never eaten in

the canteen we eat on the desk like this

kind of like hazing mentality people

would grab you and be like what what was

the UK Services PMI that came out just

now and you had to know the number so I

think there's a kind of it trains you

into this kind of hypervigilant state

and it's it is unhealthy I think and I

think it's not just traders of experien

this I think often you know living in

increasingly Financial insecure world

you know an increasingly online World a

lot of people get trained into this sort

of hypervigilant state where they feel

like I can't make any mistakes I have to

be always on the ball and I think that

it definitely affected my mental health

and I think it does affect the mental

health of the people on the trading

floor of course A lot of these guys have

been to public school and and if you

read about the experiences of public

school you know that kind of of

competitiveness and a sort of certain

coldness and brutality is sort of every

day um did you did you feel when you

were first there was did you start to

feel scared at any point or did you get

angry or you know when I was a kid I was

just

so motivated to be so we haven't

mentioned I I got expelled from school

when I was 16 for selling like a very

small amount of drugs and

um that was a very traumatic experience

and I think I responded to that by just

saying like no more mistakes we go we

reach the top nothing's going to stop

you like you're the best you're going to

do it and I think a lot of young people

will sort

of relate to that they've sort of felt

similar things like I'm not going to let

it stop me so I I was never scared um I

was that kind of

guy that I was just like wherever you

throw at me I'm going to deal with it

I'm going to go over it I'm going to

like push through it and you know I was

successful I was a very successful Traer

it wasn't really until sort of a few

years down the line that I started to

sort of realize the toll it was taken on

me so I wasn't really scared I was a

very confident I was a Copa I was a kind

of like a an over performer like a hyper

work and I was really I was pushing

myself too hard and over the years that

that led to a burn up were drugs and

drink uh coping

mechanism not for me I was not that kind

of guy you know there's another guy in

the book a good friend called Harry

sambi that sort of came in through me

and he went down that path and a lot of

people did go down that path but after I

got expelled I expelled for weed at 16 I

was like this is it we don't do this

anymore no more drugs um I mean I was

drinking but only just when people

bought me drinks so you know I would

very rarely have more than sort of one

or two drinks a night really and that

was by the by sort of later in my career

I basically stopped going out entirely

so I was sort of not your

typical path you know I think we have

people that cope by sort of going into

these you know drunk uh drink drugs

gambling these kinds of things but

there's also people that just double

down on work or like you know you even

get people that I think really go

aggressively into things that that might

be healthy behaviors in moderation like

things like gym people are going to

really really hit the gym I'm going to

really exercise and I wasn't really

going mad at the gym but I was the other

type which is classic Workaholics people

that just go right in for the work work

really hard so I was that type I wasn't

really partying much I was just I wasn't

really living much at all really I was

just I was just trading and trading and

trading what so what were you doing with

all the money you started to make

nothing really no it's it's crazy I you

know I made so much money and I was that

kind of guy you know we talk about this

in the book here's my target I want to

make 100 Grand 100 Grand done next

Target half a million next Target

million like and it's just like it's

like playing Sonic the head so

have to swear yeah yeah absolutely

playing Sonic the Hedgehog it's just

like top score top score top score

like in hindsight it's stupid but that's

just the kind of person that I was you

know and there'll be a lot of young men

out there that you know we want to be

the best but we never really stop and

ask ourselves why you know I think it's

a result of coming coming from poverty

living in this very competitive Society

you know just wanting to show what we've

got you know and it was I was in a weird

situation where

at a very young age like 24 25 I became

the top Trader in the world and then it

it was only really that that fed me to

sit back and ask myself all

right what was this all for again what

was the point you know yeah I mean being

a workaholic like any addiction is

usually like sign of like a distraction

technique to stop yourself from ever

reflecting on the way you feel so did a

moment arrive where where you started to

sort of get in touch a bit more with

with your

feelings yeah so when I was how old was

I 2011 so when I was 24 I started I

started dating a girl it was like maybe

my third my first like really really

serious long-term relationship and she

was a really nice girl she's from

Norwich just like very sensible normal

girl not not like me he was insane

Trader at the time and um we started

dating in 2011 which was the year that I

became City bank's most profitable

Trader in the world and um you know that

was a massive deal for me I made a huge

amount of money and I I got my bonus I

cycled home I sat down in the corner of

my front room I got all my paperwork out

this is how much I'm getting this is

what I'm doing what am I going to invest

in it what this is going to go here

that's going to go there and my

girlfriend at the time came around a

name in the book is Wizard which is what

I used to call it she came around and um

she looked at me and I could see when

she looked at me that she was thinking

H he doesn't look good and I was

thinking you looking and then she came

over and she was like you know what are

you doing and I was like I'm doing my

ments and she's like well you seem like

you seem pretty stressed out and I was

like well it's a lot of money of

course I'm stressed out and she just

said to me you know if I just made as

much money as you just made the last

thing I'll be doing is sitting in the

corner of my living room stressing the

out

and this little part of me straight away

realized me she's right

isn't she what the am I doing but

this other part of me was like you

like what the are you doing like I

worked hard for this you know

and it sort of I think this daating her

she was probably the first person like

when I was a kid growing up people knew

who I was he's that guy that got

expelled from grammar school he's that

really smart kid he's gonna go be big

shot one day so I was kind of being

judged for these kind of external things

intelligence success money and then I

dated someone who it really felt like

they just like me as a person she was

like you hate that job you know

you should quit and it kind of made me

it sort of just really receiving that

kind

of non-materialistic kindness and being

viewed as just as a person rather than a

success for the first time kind of made

me real that's what sort of made me

start to question I

think why why am I doing this like it

maybe there's something more important

than just being Rich you know

what I mean I mean a lot of what you've

talked about in terms of your decision

to leave and and your perception of the

way the economy works is you know about

inequality and and you you know you grew

to understand you were or you felt as if

you were contributing to an unjust

system that was worsening

inequality

um that you know which obviously that's

that's a a view that you know that

that's there's some I don't know how

political you are but there there's

something political about that but did

that all start from more of like a human

perspective like her intervention for

you to start seeing yourself from a more

human perspective is that how this sort

of it was almost like a road to Damascus

you had yeah well in a weird way like

this this came out of the trading in a

way but it does have a human angle so in

2010 I had my first like big loss as a

Trader which is when I was

20

23 and um my

reaction was to go back to the books you

know I went to LC I'm an economics

student and I started to bring my books

into the office and I was like reading

these textbooks in the office and I was

very lucky when I was a Trader I worked

with one guy who was from also from

workingclass background he was in his

sort of mid to late 40s when I worked

with him his name in the book is Bill um

he never went to University wasn't that

kind of guy and he saw me like in these

textbooks come up to me just slapped

these textbooks out of my hand and threw

them into the bin and I was like what

the are you doing and he was like

listen you're not a kid anymore

right if you want to understand the

economy it's not in those books

go home and ask your mom what she thinks

about the economy what's her financial

situation like look at what's being

advertised on a tube walk down the High

Street look at what shops are closing

down ask your friends ask your friends

families about their financial situation

and he kind of told me like the economy

is not just numbers it's it's

people and people's lives and if you

look at it like that you can actually

have a better understanding so it's a

very human angle but I use that to do a

very kind of cold analysis of what's

Happening and when I went and ask people

what's happening you know the question I

was asking people is why don't you spend

more money because that's why the

economy is weak obviously everybody says

I don't have any more money you

know then you start digging in and you

realize like damn you start looking at

your friends and their families their

financial situation and you realize like

you know this is messed up like if

people are losing their homes people are

really struggling then you turn around

and you see the guys you're working with

in the city you know making million

pound a year buying like five houses on

the river and you start realizing in

like this is a problem this is a cause

but I didn't view it even though I was

doing this human

analysis I was using that to do a very

sort of cold conclusion of okay the

economy is going to be bad what do we do

we put this bet on and it was only after

really I think one big thing that

happened that sort of hit me and I think

I kind of repressed at the time was I

put this big bet on that the economy is

going to be terrible forever that was

this that was my big bet and then just

like a week or two later

the 2011 Japan Fukushima earthquake

happened and I made a ton of money on

that because it's bad for the economy

and you know 20,000 people died in the

earthquake and you're kind of just

sitting there just

like what does this mean what does this

mean to make money on disaster you know

and then you you just kind of ignore it

and then you you know you say okay we're

going to keep having more disaster then

it happens and then I was City bank's

best Trader in the world based on

betting on disaster you know and it's

kind of it's it's such a crazy

experience to have as a person um but

yeah I was not a political kid I wasn't

really raised to ask these questions

about what does it mean what should we

do and I think I suppressed it and I

think I suppressed it for years and I

think that was probably one of the

reasons why I entered you know towards

the latter part of the book I entered

really a kind of a mental health crisis

really and I think it came from you know

suppressing these ideas of you know do I

do we as individuals have a

responsibility to try and help others

and try and try to try to fix broken a

broken

economy and and how did that manifest

itself was that like these

realizations plus presumably just

complete exhaustion I mean you got to

just be emotionally mentally and

physically exhausted after years of of

working the way you

did yeah I mean now looking back I can

sort of be sort of clinical and say

recognize it as a burnout but at the

time I didn't really know what burnout

was I I started to get these really bad

pains in my stomach which were I guess I

get you can call him an acid reflux like

it just felt like a pain in my heart and

I had to go on pills for that it's

really like strong burning pain in my

heart but then I I started to become

like really

disinterested I didn't I I never stopped

loving trading just the trading I hated

the floor I I stopped talking to

everyone I cut off some of my closest

friends barely spoke to my family um I

bought a new apartment which is actually

the apartment I'm talking to you from

it's quite a nice apartment like down

near near canary in the river I ripped

everything out I didn't buy any

furniture just put a bed a

mattress down and a TV down and um I

just you know you know you know about

these things

like I I lost interest in anything the

only thing I was doing was trading that

was it I didn't care about anything else

you know even things like just tidying

up you lose interest in it um yeah and

looking back I can see now it was a

burnout but at the time I didn't see

anything wrong with it and what was

weird about it was at the time I was

also like the best Trader in the world

and I was making tons of money so

everyone around me is like you're the

man man then you you go home you don't

even have any flaws in your

house and you just like I mean I was

very young I was 20 23 24 25 I didn't

know anything about mental health I

didn't have many support structures

around me when I tried to talk to the

management like you know I think I'm

unwell they thought I was trying to sort

of Huggle for more money and they would

just like throw more money at me and it

was like okay well that's nice but I'm

not sure that's going to fix the problem

and just just a little bit of a side of

it's fascinating to me that you know

you're the most successful Trader in the

world and you're living just like in

this really kind of simplistic

non-materialistic way I mean when it

came to you you know which I'm going to

ask you about now is like the point at

which you're actually quitting you're

walking away from this you know this

this lucrative life one thing you didn't

have was you I I suppose a lot of your

peers would have been to Al Al locked

into a lifestyle which meant it would be

absolutely impossible for them to ever

walk away from that career whereas you

didn't have to by sound things you

didn't have the the the big sort of

indulgent or extravagant lifestyle that

you didn't really need money based on

the way you lived is that right well I

mean I needed some everyone needs money

but I mean you weren't locked into like

some extraordinary Elton John style

lifestyle right yeah I never it's it's

so crazy looking back because when I was

a kid I was kind of obsessed with making

money and then as soon as I made money I

completely stopped spending money like

when I was a kid I would I did a paper

round for 13 pounds a week it got cut to

12 pounds a week and I would save up for

10 weeks and buy a pair of like TN Nike

TN trainers for1 130 pound and you know

I really cared about what I had and but

then as soon as I started making tons of

money I just totally stopped spending

money I stopped going out I stopped

saying it was weird and I think I think

looking back in

hindsight I thought I was was motivated

by being rich but actually I probably

just didn't want to be poor

anymore you know it's tough and I think

you know there's a lot of material

difficulties involved with being being

poor and you know a lot of people will

be well aware of that you know there's

men many people struggling to put the

heating on and to get put food on the

table but one other big factor about

being poor especially as a kid is the

judgment that comes with it you

get so you feel so judged and he feels

so looked down on and um especially as a

kid it's you know it's obviously

horrific you know it's not I mean I

don't think it's anybody's fault that

they're poor but it's so painfully

obvious when you're a kid you know

you're I'm fing 15 what do you want me

to do you I'm running I'm working a p

and I'm working at DFS you know um so I

think that probably that was what I was

motivated by um but it definitely it it

made it easy to walk away and it meant

you know when I was a kid when I was a

teenager I I you buy the absolute

cheapest of everything you know what I

mean and then that feels terrible but in

a weird way it gave me this freedom

because I knew I could I knew I could

live that kind of life and I knew I

could walk away from that money and

there was one sort of meeting I remember

having with the one of Senior Management

when I tried to leave and the manager

was like how much money have you made2

million pounds that's nothing you'll be

back you'll be back on your knees and

you that won't even last you five years

and I remember thinking two

million pounds that's probably more than

my family's made in 25

Generations I'm not going to be back on

my knees you know what I mean

but that's that is you

know people from wealthier backgrounds

they live these kind of Lifestyles where

they'll spend half a million quid a year

that's what they need is to cover their

Basic Essentials you know for me you

know I definitely don't need that much

you know and that that gives me freedom

and and you know I think it is it's easy

to fall into that Trapp of consumerism

and commercialism but if you can stay

away from it then you know it can make

your life a lot easier and it can it can

make you you know I've seen very wealthy

men who are tied to their screens you

know so money doesn't solve all your

problems if you if it becomes an

addiction what what was the point where

you realized you were going to get

out was there one

so there's sort one scene in the book I

don't want to sort of spoiler it but I

started to sort act out I started to

piss people off on purpose right and I

didn't really sort of know what I was

doing I think I was kind of angry in

some way at these people around me for

not realizing I was sick or maybe

because of the inequality which was so

sort of manifest around me um and there

was one sort of meeting where I got HED

off the desk and got put into this

office and I was just getting shouted at

and

um by then I I wasn't wearing like work

clothes I'd cycle into the office and

I'd just b dress very similarly to how

you see me now I'd be trading and um I

was still wearing the shoes that I used

to wear to go to UNI which is a pair of

onuka tigers

and I was just sitting down getting

shattered looking at my shoes and I

suddenly realized that I had massive

holes in both of my shoes and I could

see my socks scking out of the shoes and

I was thinking like that's kind of this

moment this this little moment where you

realize like why the am I doing

this just out of interest in this this

is very vulgar but what sort of money

did you have in the bank in your

personal bank account when you were

looking at your shoes and you had and

your and your toes were sticking out

well I mean I was very active investing

so I wasn't keeping in the bank but I'd

been paid million pounds in the previous

year right right yeah um but I'd become

I had become like like a money-making

like machine in a way what it's and for

me a big part of the book is about kind

of the dehumanization that comes with

the obsession with money in our society

yeah when you turn people into numbers

and you make people obsess about money

I've you know I've got so many people

that I know they and and I was the same

when I was younger they just think if I

just had more money everything would be

fine if I just had more money everything

and you know I don't all want to

disrespect the many people who are

living in serious poverty that do need

more money but the truth

is there are a lot of things in life

that are very important that are not

just about money and you know you'll

know that you know but we we we create

this society which forces so many people

into poverty forces so many people to

obsess about money you know what are the

things that we're forgetting about while

we're obsessed with making more money

you know I was definitely forgetting

about a lot of things

myself um so sorry you you're acting out

at work and is is that what brought it

all to her

head well I saw kicked off and then I

just said I S I just said I want to quit

I hadn't planned it at all just came out

I to quit and my boss

was shocked and um they sort of Managed

IT they were like you can't what I asked

was a sabatical I was like I don't I

don't need I want a sabatical and they

were like the big boss is like don't

give him a sabatical because he'll never

come back and you know I was like the

big CH you you were too valuable to them

presumably yeah basically like don't

give him Mr what we'll do is we'll offer

to move him to Japan we'll give him like

a nice big corporate apartment a nice

big salary in Japan he's young it'll be

exciting sending to Japan and I was kind

of like I don't think that's a good idea

and they were like no you have to go

it's kind of weird sort of sinister way

and then they sent me to Japan and of

course like you know if I was if I was

struggling for support structures in

London you can imagine in Jaan I didn't

speak the language I didn't

understand anything about the food I had

no friends there was super alien culture

and I I sank really deeply into a

depression basically when I was there I

was still making money as a Trader

but that's when I kind of decided like

you know my stomach problems were

terrible I lost a ton of weight I got

down to I think I was less than nine

stone and you know I'm quite a small guy

but nine stone is is not a lot I mean

and I think it was I think I was pushing

it away I was kind of in denial that I

was having mental health problems but it

just it reached a point where it was so

obvious and my girlfriend was you know

really worried about me and she was just

like what are you doing you know you

need to and then that's when I sort of

realized you know this is gone too far

like we have to walk away from this

whatever happens like we have to walk

away and they did they tried to stop you

again didn't they I mean there was sort

of like the book opens with some you

know thinly veiled threats from from uh

one of your bosses yeah we've got the

opening scene of the book which um is my

my boss in Japan he was an American

making it pretty clear let's say that

it's it's not going to be easy if I want

to leave um it's quite a dramatic scene

um but obviously was you know it was

very traumatic you know it was basically

saying you know if you leave you know

we're going to sue you and you're going

to lose everything and you know I didn't

have a lot of support out there and I'd

worked hard for this amount of

money also at the time my mental health

was so

bad I basically thought I'm never

goingon to be able to work again that's

what I thought I'll never be able to

work again so I need this money because

I can't work anymore like I'm F this I

need this money to pay the bills and to

buy food because I can't work anymore

um but yeah it was a they made it very

difficult and they set a challenge for

me but um I'm here now so you can see

you can see uh you can you can read that

full conflict in the book was a

difficult

time what was your recovery like you

know when when you sort of left that's

you know you start to get you know the

work is no longer providing the

distraction or the the numbing sort of

effects that it had done for years so

when it when you just had to sit and get

in touch with all of these feelings and

and issues how what how did you go about

that did was it did you see therapist

what was it you know it was a weird

thing right because I wanted to quit

leave Japan and come back to London but

because the bank kind of basically

refused to allow me to quit I was forced

to stay in Japan um and not work

basically and I ended up taking a bit of

sick leave and it was a weird one

because you know I was kind of being

threatened with being sued by like the

biggest corporation in the world and I

wasn't able able to work but I was kind

of like stuck in in Tokyo and

um the fifth part of the book is set in

Tokyo and the opening line of that part

is Tokyo is a wonderful place to be

depressed especially in the Autumn and

um Tokyo is a funny place because I

think Japan is a culture that is

obsessed with the the obligation of the

individual to society and to the people

around them and to others whereas I grew

up in London which you know has a

culture I think of you know get the

money sort yourself out you know and

there was there's one scene in the book

is towards the end of the book it's not

spoiler because it's a very short scene

I went to karaoke with I started to make

friends in Japan and I hated karaoke

hated I'm actually quite a good singer

but I hated karaoke I used to get very

self-conscious I wasn't used to it and I

suang my little song and I sat down and

this old Japanese man he said to me

listen you you're doing karaoke wrong L

you don't need to worry about whether

you sing well or you sing badly the only

thing that matters is that your guests

have a good time and there's this idea

in Japan that you should you should care

about others and make sure people around

you are are doing okay and obviously I

received a lot of this attention in

Japan and when I first went to Japan I

wasn't used to it and it kind of

stressed me out and I got very like I

felt claustrophobic but then being falc

to sort of wander around Tokyo for like

a year without any work learning

Japanese getting used to the people and

and receiving this kind of

care it's it kind of started to like

slowly heal me in a way and I started to

make friends that didn't know I was a

banker didn't know I was a millionaire

they just thought I was some you know if

you're an English guy in Japan people

think you're like a impoverished English

teacher because that's what most English

and Japan are and I just started to get

treated as just a a human again you know

rather than a millionaire banker and you

know you know it was a long process and

a couple years in Japan didn't fix

everything and you know I've done

therapy since I've come back and it's

been yeah I think the the work that I do

now which is which is not for me which

is for others I think does a massive

amount to help me and but I think it's

I've heard who is it I heard somebody

talk about it it's like first you find

yourself and then you find others you

know what I mean and I think for

me being cared about and being in the

space where people cared about me freed

me to care about others and now when I

go to karaoke all I want to do is make

sure other people have a good time and

like paradoxically I enjoy it much more

right now that caring about others and

thinking about others makes me enjoy my

life much more and sometimes I think

that in this country especially in

London we have too much of a

self-focused culture that obsesses with

ourselves and I don't think I honestly

don't think humans can be happy if

they're if they're obsessed with

themselves I think you need to be

connected with others you need to care

about others you need to to give others

and you I'm not a professional P

psychology so you can take it that what

you will but but but for me you know and

I wouldn't say I'm you know a paragon of

perfect mental health now but I've come

a long way from where I was and for me a

big part of that is is no learning to

take care of other

people yeah well I mean you know I'm not

a professional either but it's something

that certainly when you hear people

who've made a recovery and and people

who are close as you know I sit in like

um in meetings with other people in

recovery from all sorts of things and

it's one of the most common things that

comes up is aligned with what you said

is that you know the more you devote

time and energy to to helping others the

better you feel um I guess my biggest

question before we wrap up is like you

seem to have been from what I can

establish you were born with a certain

innate drive and competitiveness and you

know right from a young age that seems

evident that's just part of you and and

and it helped you get to where you got

to but also it sounds to me as if it was

you know it was also a burden in many

ways have you managed to to sort of push

that down or or even get rid of it or is

it still there burning even though

you've devoted your life to something

else is it still there haunting you do

you still want to win do you still want

to kind of prove yourself it's funny I I

mean it's there to a degree so I

recently went back to I did a masters at

Oxford 17 to 19 and I was already about

to turn 31 when I started and I didn't

really go there to get top grades I went

there to learn about economics and to

help build the work that I'm doing now

and there were kids there you know 22 23

that beat me in the first year exams I

wasn't even really studying to be honest

but there was this little part of me

this little voice in the back of my head

that was like those guys you're

better than

them you know I'm older now so you know

I know that voice and I sat down and

said listen it's all right their kids

they need those grades you don't need

the grades just let him get the grades

you do you um but you know I still I

still struggle to find like life work

balance you know I run my YouTube I run

all the social media Instagram Tik Tok I

wrote this book I put a lot of my life

into that book we're doing a ton of

interviews we're doing a ton of like a

ton of media publicity I want the book

to do really well um you know even now I

find myself falling into them habits of

like I work too hard and I don't give

myself enough time for me um but now I'm

aware that I'm doing it and you know the

book's coming out very very soon so I

want to give it a big push now and and

really care about the YouTube but I know

now to take time off and take time for

me as well but you know somebody said to

me once like you changing life but all

of those younger versions of you they

still exist inside you you know they're

still there and you need to take care of

them so I think like those weaknesses

and those sort of mental problems I've

had when I was younger they're still

there but I'm older now I like to think

I'm Wiser and and I know how to take

care of them and you know I think my my

mental health is getting better I feel

like in I'm in a a much better place

than I was when I was younger but you

know the problems don't just go away but

you know we learn ways to deal with them

and I know I know the signs and I know

the things to do I know to reach out to

people I know to sort of let people in I

know to like step back from work and do

you rest you know do you you make

yourself rest sometimes now a lot more

than I did yeah I haven't had as much

rest recently as maybe I should have

done but you know when the book's out

and there's I'll take a bit of time to

come and I I travel a bit I go and step

away and yeah I rest well I'm getting

older so I have to rest a bit more than

I used let me ask you despite everything

that you've come to uh feel about the

work you used to do and the way the

economy works is there ever a point at

which you see something in the news

right or an event going on in the

economy and a part of your brain just

tells you how you could make a million

quid out of that that day if you wanted

it never stops never stops I still tra

trade for a long time but now I tra that

when I say this I would like to be clear

trading is very dangerous I know a lot

of young men have had a lot of problems

with dangerous with with trading so if

anyone's going to do it be very careful

but you know I was the best Trader in

the world for one of the world's biggest

banks you know what I mean um and I see

the world in that way you know that's

how I see the world

um I can't change that that's what I am

but but what I do now is I don't just

bet on it I go out on my YouTube and I

tell people what's gonna happen you know

what I mean right yeah so you know you

know why why is why is Messi still

playing football because he Lov

it and he's good at it you know I wish I

was as good as Messi at football but I'm

not but what I am good at is trading and

economics but I don't do it just for me

now you know the YouTube is there it's

free anyone who wants to understand

what's happening it's there and I'm

doing my bit and you know I think I

think as humans you know we have the

capacity to to be selfish and take care

of ourselves whilst also caring about

others and helping others you know I

don't think we need to choose you know I

still trade I still make money I don't

think those are bad things to do but at

the same time I work hard and I do my

bit to try and fix the problems we have

in society and I think you know I I like

to think I have enough space in my heart

both for myself and for the people

around me and for the people of this

country and for the people of the world

and you know I think we all do you know

you don't have to choose between being

selfish and caring for others you know

we're big enough to do both and I think

that's what you need to do to be to be a

complete person I

think Gary it's fascinating listening

about your life and you're an

inspirational guy um and you know just

incredible things that you've done and

incredible stuff that you've written in

this book so my advice is to everyone to

go out and buy it it's incredible read

and I'm very grateful for your time

today Gary cheers that's right thanks to

much Sam nice to meet you that was Gary

Stevenson his new book is called the

trading game a confession and it's

published on March 5th you can check out

his incredibly informative videos on the

economy and how it works over on his

YouTube YouTube channel which is called

Gary's economics I can highly recommend

that thanks for listening to the Pod as

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and don't let the get you

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