Lester Holt interviews Open AI's Sam Altman and Airbnb's Brian Chesky

Summary

在这段访谈中，Sam Altman和Brian Chesky就人工智能（AI）的现状和未来进行了深入讨论。他们探讨了AI如何融入日常生活，并对各行各业产生影响。讨论还涉及了AI技术发展中的道德责任、数据使用问题，以及AI可能带来的社会和经济变革。此外，他们还讨论了人工智能在政治、政策制定和选举中的作用，以及如何确保技术的安全和对社会的积极影响。

Takeaways

• 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 两位嘉宾是朋友，并且在一些重要项目上有过合作。
• 🤖 大多数现代人在某种程度上都与AI有交互，但可能并不总是意识到这一点。
• 🚀 AI技术正在迅速发展，已经过了一个关键的转折点，未来将会更加深入地融入我们的日常生活。
• 🔍 AI在医疗领域的应用，如Callor Health使用AI进行癌症筛查和治疗计划。
• 💡 AI的未来可能不是单一的‘奇点’，而是一系列能力的逐步提升。
• 🔑 技术公司，包括Airbnb，正在通过收购AI初创公司或建立合作伙伴关系来参与AI领域。
• 🌐 AI将像互联网一样，成为几乎所有公司的基础设施的一部分。
• 🏆 Sam Altman认为AI可能是他职业生涯中最大的一件事，因为它将比以往任何技术都更深刻地影响人们的生活。
• 🤖 AI技术的发展带来了道德责任问题，需要确保技术的发展是安全和负责任的。
• 🌍 随着AI技术的发展，可能会出现地缘政治上的竞争和合作，需要全球性的框架来确保技术的健康和安全发展。
• 💡 AI技术的发展需要社会、政府和企业的共同努力，以确保技术带来的利益最大化，同时避免潜在的负面影响。

Q & A

Sam和Brian在对话中提到了哪些AI技术的应用实例？

Sam和Brian提到了使用AI技术进行癌症筛查和治疗计划，以及未来可能帮助发现癌症治疗方法的应用。另外，还提到了Airbnb使用AI来更好地理解用户，提供个性化的旅行和居住体验。

对话中提到的AI技术发展是否已经到达了一个临界点？

Sam认为AI技术已经越过了一个临界点，但他也指出未来还会有更多的临界点，随着系统获得新能力和更好的性能。

Sam和Brian如何看待与其他科技公司的关系，例如与苹果的合作以及Elon Musk的反应？

Sam没有预料到Elon Musk的负面反应，而Brian则认为这仅仅是Elon个人的反应，并不代表其他科技公司对OpenAI的看法。

为什么Brian认为每家科技公司都需要拥有AI技术？

Brian认为AI技术将会像互联网一样被完全嵌入我们所做的一切事情中，因此每家公司都需要有AI技术，无论是通过合作还是自己的开发计划。

Sam和Brian讨论了AI技术可能带来的哪些社会变革？

他们讨论了AI技术可能带来的巨大社会变革，包括提高生产力、改变人们的生活方式，以及可能对教育、医疗、艺术等多个领域产生深远影响。

Sam被自己创立的公司解雇的事件对AI行业有什么影响？

Sam被解雇的事件引起了业界的广泛关注和讨论，这反映了AI技术发展过程中可能遇到的道德责任、监管和治理等挑战。

AI技术在发展过程中如何确保安全和伦理性？

Sam提到了他们公司在推出系统时会非常谨慎，确保系统的健壮性和安全性，并强调了与政府、政策制定者和其他利益相关者的沟通和合作的重要性。

Sam和Brian如何看待AI技术在即将到来的总统选举中的作用？

他们认为AI技术将是这次选举中的一个主要技术元素，需要确保准确的投票信息，防止深度伪造等滥用技术的出现，并保持警惕以应对可能的新的滥用方式。

AI技术的发展是否会遇到数据使用的法律和伦理问题？

Sam提到了关于数据使用的公平性和合法性的问题，他们正在考虑新的经济模型，以确保所有创造数据和知识的人都能参与其中。

Sam和Brian如何看待人工通用智能（AGI）的未来发展？

Sam认为AGI的发展不会是一个单一的关键时刻，而是一系列逐步提升能力的过程。他们强调了与社会透明沟通和技术发展步骤的重要性。

Sam和Brian认为AI技术如何影响创作和艺术领域？

他们认为AI技术可以成为艺术家和创意工作者的强大工具，而不是取代他们，可以协助创作、提高效率，并开辟新的艺术表达方式。

Outlines

00:00

🤖 AI技术的普及与未来展望

在这段对话中，讨论了人工智能(AI)技术的普及程度以及它如何影响日常生活。提到了像Chat GPT这样的工具，尽管许多人可能没有意识到，但AI已经渗透到许多服务中。Sam认为AI技术已经跨过了一个关键的门槛，并且未来将有更多的突破。提到了AI在医疗领域的应用，例如用于癌症筛查和治疗计划，并预测未来AI可能帮助发现癌症的治疗方法。此外，还讨论了AI技术如何被集成到各种服务中，以及它如何提升这些服务的水平。

05:01

🛠️ 技术的责任与道德问题

这段对话聚焦于技术的责任和道德问题，特别是AI技术。讨论了公众对于AI技术的不信任感，以及技术发展背后的道德责任。Sam分享了他与Brian之间的对话，强调了技术应当被看作工具，而不是控制我们的存在。同时，提到了Sam被自己公司解雇的经历，以及他对于AI技术发展的看法，包括对监管的需求和公众对于AI技术未来可能的担忧。

10:01

📰 AI技术在社会中的争议

在这一部分中，讨论了AI技术在社会中的争议，包括与名人声音相似的AI技术可能引起的问题，以及深度伪造技术(deep fakes)的滥用问题。提到了AI技术可能对个人和社会造成的伤害，以及行业需要采取的立场来防止这些滥用情况的发生。同时，也提到了AI技术在选举中的应用，以及如何防止虚假信息的传播。

15:01

🏛️ AI技术与政策制定

这段对话讨论了AI技术与政策制定之间的关系。Sam和Brian分享了他们对于AI技术发展的看法，以及政策制定者如何影响这一进程。提到了AI技术可能对选举产生的影响，以及不同企业可能受到选举结果的不同影响。同时，强调了建立一个全球性的框架来合作管理AI技术的重要性，以及避免让技术发展超出社会控制的范围。

20:03

🧠 AI训练数据与知识创造

在这一部分中，讨论了AI训练数据的需求，以及如何公平地使用这些数据。提到了AI模型的训练需要大量的数据，并且对于数据的来源和使用方式有深入的讨论。Sam提到了他们对于数据使用的法律立场，以及他们如何考虑数据创造者的权利。同时，提到了AI技术可能对互联网使用方式和经济模型产生的影响。

25:03

🚀 AI技术发展与价值观教育

这段对话探讨了AI技术的发展，特别是关于如何教授AI系统人类的价值观。Sam分享了他们如何尝试将特定的价值观嵌入到AI模型中，并且讨论了这些价值观的来源和如何让社会参与到这一过程中。同时，提到了AI技术可能带来的巨大变革，以及如何确保这些变革是积极的。

30:04

🌐 AI技术与全球合作

在这一部分中，讨论了AI技术在全球范围内的影响，以及不同国家之间如何合作来管理这项技术。提到了建立一个跨国的组织或团体来确保全球对AI技术的共识，以及如何避免技术被滥用。同时，讨论了AI技术可能带来的经济影响，以及如何通过技术创新来推动全球GDP的增长。

35:05

🛑 AI技术的自我调节与未来规划

这段对话讨论了AI技术发展过程中的自我调节问题，以及如何平衡技术创新与社会影响。Sam和Brian分享了他们对于AI技术未来发展的看法，包括可能的技术突破和对社会的潜在影响。同时，提到了在AI技术发展过程中可能需要的自我限制，以及如何确保技术发展不会超出社会的控制范围。

🌟 AI技术的广泛应用与期望

在对话的最后部分，讨论了AI技术的广泛应用，以及对未来5年内AI技术发展的期望。Sam分享了他收到的许多关于人们如何使用AI工具的积极反馈，并且表达了他对于AI技术能够继续帮助人们实现更多目标的乐观态度。同时，提到了AI技术在教育、艺术、科学研究等领域的潜在应用，以及如何通过这些技术来解决社会问题。

Keywords

💡人工智能（AI）

人工智能（AI）是指由人造系统所表现出来的智能，它能够执行通常需要人类智能的任务，如语言理解、学习、推理和感知。在视频中，AI是整个讨论的核心，涉及到它如何融入我们的日常生活和服务中，以及它对未来社会可能产生的深远影响。例如，提到了人们可能不知不觉中已经与AI有了互动，如使用聊天机器人Chat GPT。

💡通用人工智能（AGI）

通用人工智能（AGI）是指能够执行任何智能任务的AI系统，与人类智能无异。视频中提到，人们曾将AGI视为一个模糊而遥远的目标，但现在认为AI的发展是一个连续的、跨过多个门槛的过程，而不是一个单一的、革命性的时刻。

💡深度学习

深度学习是一种机器学习技术，它使用类似于人脑的神经网络结构来学习复杂的模式。视频中，深度学习是实现AI能力提升的关键技术之一，例如通过训练大型模型如GPT来理解和生成自然语言。

💡道德责任

道德责任是指在技术创新和应用过程中，开发者和使用者应考虑的伦理和道德问题。视频中讨论了AI开发者面临的道德责任，包括确保技术的安全性、防止滥用以及与政府和监管机构合作制定适当的政策和法规。

💡技术门槛

技术门槛是指技术发展过程中的关键点或阶段，在这些点上技术能力有了显著提升。视频中提到AI已经跨过了一些关键门槛，比如能够理解和响应自然语言，但未来还有更多的门槛等待跨越。

💡数据隐私

数据隐私涉及到个人数据的保护和使用，确保个人信息不被未授权访问或滥用。在视频讨论中，随着AI技术的发展，如何处理训练数据、保护数据隐私以及确保数据使用的公平性成为了重要议题。

💡深度伪造（Deepfake）

深度伪造是指使用AI技术生成的假图像或视频，看起来非常真实。视频中提到了深度伪造技术可能带来的问题，例如用于制作虚假的色情内容或影响选举等，这需要行业和政府采取行动来规范。

💡监管

监管是指政府或监管机构对某个行业或技术实施的监督和管理措施。视频中，讨论了AI技术发展需要适当的监管来确保安全、防止滥用，并促进公平竞争和创新。

💡技术创新

技术创新是指开发新的或改进现有的产品、服务或流程。视频中提到，AI是技术创新的一个关键领域，它正在推动多个行业的变革，如医疗、教育和艺术等。

💡价值观

价值观是指个人或社会认为重要的道德标准和原则。在AI的背景下，价值观涉及到如何将人类的道德和伦理标准编码到AI系统中，确保AI的行为符合社会期望。视频中讨论了AI发展中价值观的重要性，以及如何教会AI积极的价值观念。

💡技术发展

技术发展是指技术不断进步和创新的过程。视频中多次提到技术发展，强调AI技术的发展不是一场竞赛，而是一个渐进的、持续的进化过程，需要社会、政府和企业共同参与和影响。

Highlights

Sam和Brian讨论了人工智能(AI)在日常生活中的普及程度，提到了像Chat GPT这样的工具。

AI技术的快速发展，可能已经越过了一个关键的门槛，未来将有更多突破。

Sam提到AI在医疗领域的应用，例如Callor Health使用AI进行癌症筛查和治疗计划。

讨论了AI技术发展可能带来的伦理和责任问题，以及公众对此的担忧。

Brian强调了AI将如何深刻地影响人们的生活，甚至超过以往任何技术。

Sam和Brian讨论了与苹果公司的合作以及Elon Musk对此的反应。

Airbnb收购AI初创公司，预示着每个科技公司都需要拥有或合作AI技术。

讨论了AI技术在不同行业中的应用，例如Airbnb使用AI来更好地匹配用户需求。

Sam分享了他在OpenAI的经历，包括被解雇和重新加入公司的过程。

讨论了AI技术在政治和社会中的作用，以及其对选举可能产生的影响。

Sam和Brian讨论了AI技术对数据的需求，以及数据使用中的公平性和合法性问题。

讨论了AI技术可能带来的问题，例如deepfake技术对个人和社会的潜在危害。

Sam提到了AI技术在提高生产力和可能创造巨大经济价值方面的潜力。

讨论了AI技术发展中的价值观问题，以及如何教会AI积极的价值观。

Sam和Brian分享了他们对于AI技术未来发展的看法，以及对社会的积极影响。

讨论了AI技术在教育、艺术和科学研究等领域的应用潜力。

Sam表达了他对于AI技术未来5年的期望，希望能够继续为人们带来帮助和快乐。

Transcripts

[Music]

[Applause]

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[Applause]

well you guys get all the Applause I've

invented nothing Zippo great to see you

guys welcome thanks everybody for being

here very excited about this

conversation uh we'll set this up by

letting folks know you guys are friends

you have your your work is kind of you

know worked in together on some

important projects and some important

things so we're going to get into some

of that as well but you're wondering why

the two them here that's why thank you

so much for your time let me get um

let's start off with kind of a

perspective Sam what percentage of this

audience do you think has in some way

interative with AI

today I I would bet most

uh I'm not going to hold you to it by

the way in the

90s it's a and most of us don't know

where it's affecting our lives yeah you

know there there are people who use chat

GPT and you kind of know when you're

using that or not but the number of

people are integrating AI into all of

their other services and taking our gp4

and other models that we have and you

know it's sort of

like lifting a lot of services up has AI

crossed a a critical threshold in the

past

year I think

that yes but I think there will be many

thresholds that AI uh crosses you know

we used to Brian actually gave me great

advice about this we used to talk about

we're going to get to this like moment

of AGI and you know it was this very IL

defined term and I think it never made

sense to think about it that way in the

first place but we used to and now we

think about it is it'll just be this

series of thresholds uh where the

systems will get new and new cap better

and better capabilities so you know you

can use chat GPT today for some things

and you'll be able to use it for much

more helpful tasks in the future um you

know maybe today there are things like

okay uh like for example one of our um

one of our partners callor health is now

using uh gp4 for cancer screening and

treatment plans and that's great and

then maybe a future version will help uh

discover cures for cancer so I think of

it as success of thresholds but

definitely the fact that we can talk to

computers in natural language and have

them understand us and help us that's

certainly been a threshold I want to

talk about some things that we've seen

in the news lately and get your reaction

to it um at times you have both made

friends and enemies fairly quickly you

struck a big deal with Apple recently um

Elon Musk was upset and said he wouldn't

allow Apple products at his companies

did you see that reaction coming uh well

I saw it happen but no I didn't I I I

didn't I sort of doubt it will actually

happen um but I didn't predict that are

are you does it represent something

that's happening on the outskirts of

open AI in terms of reaction from other

tech

companies uh no I think that's just like

an Elon

reaction and Brian let me turn to you

Airbnb recently picked up an AI startup

are we at a point now that every tech

company is going to have to have a piece

of this action a partnership or uh its

own development plans yeah I mean I

think that just like now every company

almost in the world is on the internet

AI is just going to be completely

embedded in everything that we do and I

think that one of the things that's

incredible Sam is like Sam used to say

you have to be if you want to be a great

entrepreneur you have to be right about

one big thing in your career and I think

that Sam was right about one of the

biggest things in the history of tech

because this is going to be something

that's going to affect people's lives

more than any technology that we've ever

seen in the past but I think a lot of

the conversation you know we're talking

about AI as this like existential

enigmatic thing and I think one of the

things we're missing is just talking

about the practical ways that people can

benefit their lives I can give you an

example Airbnb but Sam has a lot of

examples so today Airbnb is a way you

like type in a city and you find a home

and you book a home and that's Airbnb

and it's pretty much the way that the

internet's worked for the last 20 years

but imagine in the future um systems

that understand you better that's the

real promise a computer that can

understand you and can ask you like well

who are you Lester like what are your

hopes what are your dreams like where do

you want to travel what do you one day

want to do with your life and then it

could actually understand you and be

more of a Matchmaker really understand

you and match you to people communities

Services experiences anything you want

to be able to travel and live anywhere

in the world and that's kind of how I

think airb be can use but I think almost

every industry can get remade with AI

and I think they can participate but the

stakes are higher here than I mean what

what you talk about is largely

aspirational but with AI you're looking

at some real fears that I think we all

here understand so what does that mean

in terms of the people who are running

this most most of us are just passengers

on this bus we're watching you guys you

know do these incredible things you know

talk about it being compared to the

Manhattan Project and wondering where is

this going and wondering who are the

people behind it can we trust these

people so talk if you can about the

moral

responsibility um and and for all of us

to know these people know people like

you who are making these

changes yeah I mean I I can share um I I

me I I met Sam in 2008 and when I came

to Silicon Valley the word technology

might as well have been like a

dictionary definition for the word good

I mean Facebook is a way to share photos

of your friends YouTube was like cat

videos Twitter was like talking about

like what you're going doing today and I

think there was this General innocence

and I think over time what we realize is

when you take a tool and I think

technology is a tool you know Steve Jobs

one of the things he said is he put a

handle in the back of every computer cuz

he said never trust a computer who can't

throw out the window he said these are

tools and we're meant to dominate them

they don't dominate us and I think one

of the things that happen though is when

you put a tool in the hands of hundreds

of millions of people you know they're

going to use it for ways you didn't

intend and I think we are much more

sober and realistic in this new

generation because I think we learned a

lot of the lessons of the last

generation we learned about how

technology can be used mostly for good

but there's always unintended

consequences and so I think this time

one of the things I've seen Sam do is

he's been very cautious not polanish at

all about where this technology is going

and and really telling governments there

actually is a need for regulation Sam I

want to get your your take and give you

a chance to talk about your firing you

were you were fired from your own

company

why let me first touch on something that

Brian said in with your earlier question

and then I will very happy to talk about

that

um

I this is going to be a huge change in

society uh I think unlike other

technological Trends um we're sort of

we're aware even if today we're like

okay chat gbt is this like very helpful

tool and it's you know once I use it I'm

not scared of it um there is a sense

of super understandable anxiety about

where this is going to go what does it

mean if these tools keep getting more

capable at the rate they've been getting

capable at and there's tons of wonderful

things and we could talk about those all

day but there is this what is the future

going to look like even if we solve

every safety problem even if we solve

every um you know misuse problem even if

we figure out the perfect regulatory

regime like what are what are our lives

going to be like when it's not just like

the computer understands us and gets to

know us and helps us and do these things

but we can say like hey computer like

discover all of physics and it can go

off and do that um what does it mean

when we can say like hey start and run a

great company you can go off and do that

so that's a big change uh that's a lot

of trust that we have to earn to be some

of the stewards there will be many other

people working on this of this

technology and we're we're proud of our

track record uh I think if you look at

the systems that we've put out and the

time and Care we've taken we've been

able to get them to a level of generally

accepted robustness and safety that is

well beyond what what people thought we

were going to be able to do when we got

to these initial systems a few years ago

like when you looked at gpt2 or gpt3 and

said are we going to be able to make

this safe enough to use a lot of people

thought no but but there's this thing in

there's this the future is like looming

large and we've got to continue to earn

the trust with what we do the systems we

put in the world um and how we how we

have legitimate decision-making over

these systems how we broadly Empower

people with them how we continue to

promote stability in the world in the

face of all this change um and it makes

people very anxious uh and the whole

like the whole board firing me and

coming back thing I mean Brian was an

enormous help during that uh it was

obviously a super painful experience but

I do understand why anxiety levels have

been so are so high uh I and I think the

previous board members like they're

nervous about the continued development

of AI uh had whatever feelings they had

about

me and how we were doing things and

although I super strongly disagree with

what what they think things they've said

since how how they acted uh I think

there are like fundamentally good people

who are nervous about the future and

trying to figure out how we get to a

good outcome um I'm super excited with

the new board they're extremely uh

constructive and helpful and experienced

and strong and it's been a very

productive thing since then but that was

a horrible experience to go through not

not during the moment where it was just

like this is a crazy thing let's figure

out how to undo it and Brian was like

unbelievably helpful but then the period

after that uh where I just had to like

kind of pick up the pieces in this like

state of emotional shock that was that

was really bad you were trying to pick

up the pieces you were picking up the

phone Brian yes explain that well I

remember

um so maybe just to go back in time um

when chat GPT launched and launched in

Nate late November

2022 it was a phenomenon unlike anything

we'd seen probably since the launch of

the iPhone I have no recollection

anything and I we knew overnight

everything was going to change and I

remember meeting with Sam and I said you

know I've been through a little bit of

this rocket ship before and I'm not

going to advise you on the core research

of AI but when it comes to like

marketing and like stakeholder

management and PR and like design and

product and everything that's not that

you're going to go on a rocket ship and

I'm only where I am today because people

believed in me and people helped me and

one of the great things about silken

Valley is is a high trust place where

people will help so I just wanted to be

helpful to him so this goes on for about

a year it's one year later and I get a

text message and it's actually from

somebody else saying Sam was fired from

open the eye I was like fired and I

immediately texted him and I think his

text back to me like was 5 minutes later

he had just found out he was fired

and he said so brutal and I go what

happened so we get on the phone and he

doesn't know what happened it wasn't

fully explained to him and by the way

his co-founder who was also on the board

was removed from the board and that

seemed to me very suspicious so I got on

the phone with him and Greg and I felt

really comfortable with the

circumstances that this was not a fair

process and I think this should always

be a fair process but especially if

they're Founders because they're very

very difficult to replace and what I

noticed in those first 24 hours was not

a lot of people sticking up for Sam and

I in my darkest times in my crisis have

had people stick up for me and that's

what I wanted to do for Sam and I

basically we talk through things and I

said I think the most important thing

for you to do is just be completely

transparent internally and externally

with what you know and what's happening

but the most remarkable thing and the

thing that made me really want to defend

him was you know you you learn a lot

about people in a crisis if you really

want to know what someone's like see

them in a crisis and at no point in the

5

days this went down did Sam ever even

for a second focus on self-preservation

he was completely I I was like why

aren't you sticking up for here like why

aren you care more about yourself that's

what I was saying to him like somebody's

got to stick up for you you're not even

sticking up for yourself and he just was

so focused on the team and what was best

for the team and I think that's what

really made me

you know so vifer like focused on

helping I want to turn Sam if I can turn

to the some of the bad publicity you've

received lately including the dust up

over the voice of Sky one thing that

could help clear up the concern over the

similarity of Sky's voice to Scarlett

Johansson would be to hear from the

actor who you say was hired to be the

voice of sky is that something that you

will

do certainly if she wants to I mean I

know she's made statements through her

agent uh but I'm not I don't I don't

know where I mean anything she wants to

do would certainly be fine with us the

whole thing opens up certainly a larger

question of what do we own in an AI

world uh do we have control over our

likenesses we're seeing uh you know deep

fake porn right now people's you know

heads being swapped um these are harmful

on an individual level how and I know

it's not unique to open AI but how is

the industry going to respond to

this I mean we think the industry needs

to take a super strong stance on that it

is we obviously do uh and there are

other issues related to how this

technology is being used uh to harm

people that we think the industry needs

to take a very strong stance on um we

try to be not only very loud in our

calls for regulation to prevent some of

these misuse cases these misuses which I

think is happening but also to set a

really good example in the products and

services we offer and hold ourselves to

a very high were these things inevitable

I mean you you clearly saw the risk

coming as this uh technology was

maturing like deep fakes and stuff deep

fakes yeah head face swapping yeah um it

was inevitable that the technology was

going to be capable of that and so you

know of course there are going to be

systems out there that allow that uh but

that's where I think we society and

governments have a role to say you know

will allow

some use cases of Technology we not not

comfortable with but in some places we

are going to draw a line and face

swapping deep fake revenge porn is a

great place to draw a line we're nearing

a presidential election as you know

we're seeing some of the deep fakes

already happening there's been talk

about this for years that this would be

a very difficult election what are your

thoughts as you begin to see this stuff

kind to emerge and in terms of your

responsibility your industry's

responsibility to make sure that we're

not being overwhelmed by disinformation

yes so you know this will be I think the

first election where there's not just

the US many other elections this year

where AI is like a major technological

element Providence is really important

accurate polling information and

avoiding some of the issues we've seen

with uh previous technological platforms

and other election Cycles um and you

know preventing things like deep fakes I

I think those are three top of- mind

issues for us uh in this election cycle

I'll also add that there may be other

things ways people try to misuse misuse

this that we're not aware of yet um so

we're we have like a whole monitoring

efforts set up and uh I think we'll need

a very tight feedback loop as we get

closer to the election uh to see if

there's additional areas where people

are trying to abuse the technology while

we're on the topic of the election Brian

I'll let you start what what do you

think will be the impact on your

individual businesses in terms of the

outcome of this

election hard to say I mean Airbnb is

kind of more of a cityby city

state-by-state thing so the changes in

um Federal administrations don't have

not historically um had a huge impact on

us and we're of course in a 109 220

countries so we're a pretty resilient

business I mean one of the things we saw

during the pandemic is when one part of

our business changes it adapts to some

other part so I don't anticipate a

really big change based on who's who's

who's elected how about you

Sam I do

expect some big impact based off who's

elected but I don't know how to I I

don't know what it'll be it it does seem

to me like AI is going to be an

increasingly important geopolitical

priority in the world um but I'm you

know I I hard for me to say exactly how

it's going to go one of the

things that I've really valued about

Brian so Brian kind of like under sold

what he mentioned earlier in that first

year kind of like what he's done to help

but when Chach BT started taking off and

everything just went crazy for me a lot

of people reach out and say oh I'd love

to help you I can do this I can do that

and you know everyone's I think they

mean it when they say it but everybody's

just busy um Brian was like the person

who would just sit down with me for like

3 hours every other week and like give

me a list and say Here's the five things

you got to do now here's where you're

behind here's what you're screwing up

here's what you got to proactively do

here's what you got to think about um

and it's basically like almost always

right and uh I learn to just like always

shut up and follow the advice um

one of the things that Brian started

saying

uh more recently uh is that you're

probably not thinking enough about

politics and policy and what that's

going to mean for how the world thinks

about Ai and here's the people you need

to hire here's the here's what it means

to like you know map this out and think

about a strategy here here's what you

should do and definitely not do and uh

that's been like super helpful and do

think for our business it's going to be

really important and I think one of the

things Lester is that you know I

remember coming to silen Valley we

didn't think these platforms would have

the impact on society that they we now

know they have and so I think the

mindset that Sam has and even the

questions you're asking him probably

weren't asked of tech leaders 15 years

ago I think the whole industry is

changed the whole conversation is is

like like Sam has built out much more of

a team much earlier than the big tech

companies would have around policy and

stakeholder management I want to ask if

about one of the things we've learned in

your research and developing chat GPT

and others is the requirement of data to

train up these modules it's an

insatiable appetite as it as it appears

has it changed how you view what is fair

use and whose material compated material

you can

use first of all I don't think we know

yet what the future of how these models

get smart is going to look like you know

is it that we just need more and more

data

forever doesn't feel to me like likely

to be right you know if you think about

what a human can learn from Reading one

textbook it's very different than what

it takes these AI models for now so I I

expect and also there comes a point

where to like invent new science you

need to just sit there and think and run

some experiments but it's not in any

textbook because it's new so I I expect

that the future of how we think about

training data um and what it takes to

make these models really capable is it

going to be a roadblock though in the

development of these products that's

what I was trying to say I I you know

this is like science we don't know for

sure I think it won't be um now that

said uh the issue of like fair use and

how to think about how people who create

data create knowledge create you know

Wonderful

books I think although like from a legal

perspective we're confident in our fair

use position now that we see where this

may evolve um we need to figure figure

out New Economic models where the whole

world gets to participate and I think

this goes beyond just people who have

data that we train on but also uh and

we've you know found many different ways

to license it and do different things

but also the people that provide the

feedback to the models the people who

like go off and create great realtime

news that maybe the model doesn't train

on but you want to display it um at the

time and that there's a lot of work that

goes into that uh and you know I I think

maybe AI is going to not super

significantly but somewhat significantly

change the way people use the internet

and if so you can see some of the

economic models of the past needing to

evolve uh and I think that's a broader

conversation than just training data but

it's sort of like content in general

surfaced via AI I want to ask you about

artificial general intelligence that's

taking it up taking up the game

considerably if I understand it

correctly that's when you get to the

point that the computers can do whatever

we can do is that a fair summation you

know that I I I think I was wrong to

initially think about it as this one

moment as we talked about but uh it does

seem to me and now I think people use

AGI to means all all sorts of things it

it does seem to me that trying to sort

of road map out for the world where we

think the significant increases in

capability will be um can do what you

know people can do can create new

science can what whole companies can do

uh that feels like it'd be very useful

for the industry to sort of agree on so

that we could have these conversations

in a little bit more of a disciplined

way and that's one of the things we

talked about is like just operating

transparently letting people know that

it's probably not this one promethian

moment where it goes from AI to AGI that

there's many many steps just like the

story of technology and that it's really

important that we bring Society along

and that we're not operating in this

black box and people think there's only

a few people controlling the future that

were transparent with other developers

and computer scientists and researchers

and policy makers about these are steps

we're going this is what we're seeing

and this is what we think the next four

steps look like but isn't but isn't this

a race on a different level the stakes

are so high I mean are are you do

consider yourself in a race and do you

think it's one you'll win to get to the

point of artificial general intelligence

I don't think of it as a race I

understand why that's like a very

compelling dramatic way to to talk about

it I I think that

there may be a race between nation

states um at some point but the

companies that are developing this now I

think everyone feels the stakes the need

to get this right I also think to to

Brian's point that it's not there's not

this Milestone we're all racing towards

it is this it is this continual

evolution of Technology where we melted

sand and figured out how to like turn it

into transistors and then figured out

how to like build an operating system

and do a certain kind of programming and

we made it bigger and bigger and then we

figured out how to like train these

systems that are sort of smart in some

ways but they're not off like running as

these autonomous things they're tools

that we're using to do more than we

could before in the way that we used

computers to do more than we could

before without Ai and in the way we used

machines in the industrial revolution to

do more than we could before and the way

we used agriculture to be able to have

time and space to do more things than we

could before

and and I don't think it's this race to

a milestone it's this ongoing the next

step and the next one and the next one

and the tools are going to get better

and better but what happens is it's not

like for sure technology is not neutral

and tools are not inherently neutral

things but the impact we can have by

building the tools is important we want

to get that right people are going to go

use these tools to invent the future

that we all collectively live in and

what one person can already do now

before chat GPT existed is an impressive

leap and by the time we get to GPT 6 or

7 what one person can do will be

incredibly uh increased and I'm very

excited for that like I think that is

that is the story of the world getting

better we make technology um people use

it to build new things Express their

creative ideas and Society improves yeah

when you when you talk about these

programs though um and when you give

them the ability to do what we do we

also have a set of values different sets

of values we view common decency in a

not so common way sometimes how do you

teach that to a computer in a way that

won't be harmful how do you teach values

that are

positive one of the things that has

surprised me and I don't want to say

this gets us like this solves the whole

AI alignment problem um but at our

current levels of systems uh our ability

to teach a Model A Certain set of values

and to behave in a certain way um is way

better than I thought it was going to be

at this point now there's a harder

question which is who gets to decide

what those values are um who gets to

decide what the defaults are how much an

individual user can uh sort of customize

them within those broad bounds and as an

early step there we put out this thing

maybe a month or two ago called the spec

where we tried to say um here is our

desired Model Behavior here are the

values we want our model to follow and

that way people can at least tell if

it's a bug or intentional when it does

something that they don't like and over

time Society can debate what those

values are and we can adapt to it um so

I'm very heartened by our technical

progress on this topic but man writing

that set of values or getting Society to

debate and agree on what those set of

values should be that's a much harder

Challenge and Brian you as you've talked

about you've given Sam um advice from

time to time I I I read somewhere I

don't have the exact quote in front of

me at least I can't find it right now

but to the notion of go for it and

figure it out later

I don't what is the quote it's it's the

idea that you you have believe that you

need to go for it when it comes to this

kind of research are there brakes that

should be put

on well yeah I mean I think if you

imagine you're in a car the faster the

car goes the more you need to look ahead

in front of you and you need to

anticipate the corners and I think that

we acknowledge that this technology is

so so powerful that I think this is why

we're like being so thoughtful I mean

people really are agon izing over how to

treat these systems and I do not

remember us doing this in 2007 2008 so I

do think it's a very very different time

I mean one of the things that like Sam

and I talked about was bring other

stakeholders in early and one of the

things we did last year was he went on a

tour around the world meeting with

people it was mostly I think a way to

get feedback from people educate people

and really get feedback so I think I

think the key Point Lester is we never

go so fast that we leave Society behind

that we only go as fast as to bring

bring everyone along and I think that if

everyone here could feel like they could

participate and they could have their

input into it then I don't really think

there's a huge thing to fear I think the

thing to fear is something we don't

understand we're left out of and

something that runs away from us that we

can't control and so that's the future

we don't want to live in also it's quite

interesting if you say the word AI it

can be scary you say Chachi BT it

doesn't sound as scary because it's a

very tangible tool so I think we need to

also just focus on like that which is in

front of us and how can we help people

there's a lot of problems right now and

open AI I mean it can lead to a lot of

scientific research and Discovery um

Chach PD can be an incredible tool for

artists um you know Airbnb we can think

we think it can really bring people

together we're living in this huge

epidemic of Lon we can use this to help

bring people together at the end of the

day it's not the technology it's the

people with the technology it's always

comes down to the people their values

and are they good people the way I sort

of think about this is um we need to

learn how to make safe technology we

need to figure out how to build Safe

products and that in that includes like

an ongoing dialogue with Society about

hey this has this impact I didn't expect

or don't want and also you're not

letting me do this thing that's really

important for this reason you didn't

understand so the way that we talk to

the broader world and the people that

use and impact by our products and

impacted by our products and let let

them reflect what they want and then

also like a safe operating plan which is

we get better and better at predicting

capabilities um research is of course an

open question you don't always know

where it's going to go but before we

start training a new model we'd like to

be able to say here here are the

dangerous capabilities that we think

could happen we have a preparedness

framework to test them sometimes this

takes a very long time uh with gp4 for

example we had about eight months

between when we finished training when

we released it including lots of like

external consultation in red teaming um

future models may take even longer but

it is very important to get the feedback

from society one thing that I don't

think is good is to let a huge

capability overhang build

up uh and then we haven't had that

feedback loop with Society so we we we

we do need to figure out how to balance

that but yeah you know taking the time

to get it right is very important are

you ever inclined or you think you'd

ever be inclined to back up to see the

future and and a and find it is maybe as

scary as some some people have suggested

are you prepared to that hit that moment

where you have to take a step back even

as your competitors may want to move

forward forward for sure um there are

things that we have built and chosen not

to release or held back for long periods

of time um there are plenty of other

companies that would release things that

we won't um we're not going to get every

decision right of course and uh we also

May at some point deploy something and

need to take it back but there'll also

be things that we just don't deploy you

you we talk about these scary images did

it help when you compared where you are

with a I with the Manhattan Project the

the race to build an atomic weapon was

that helpful for you as you try to make

your

case I mean we we try to give a number

of historical analogies because we think

it is important we may be wrong we may

be right but it's important for us to

tell Society what we believe the level

of importance of this technology is

there's no perfect historical analog for

any new technology so we can say there

were some things about the Manhattan

project that are like what we're doing

now there's some things about the Apollo

program there are some things about the

iPhone there are some things about that

iMac with the handle which I also really

loved um there's some things about the

internet there are some things about the

Industrial Revolution

and but what I think is important is to

say here are the parts where we can look

to a historical analogy and here are the

parts where we can't and the shape of

this technology and kind of the

decisions and the impact it is

fundamentally like a little bit

different than anything I think I think

it's different than the Manhattan

Project it's not a race it's not going

to be done in secret and I think Nations

can collaborate together and there're

could be a transnational kind of group

or body that could really kind of align

to make sure we're all on the same page

which would be best for society and

frankly probably best for entrepreneurs

so they don't have to comply with like

200 different laws we think we think

that's super important uh to get to get

some sort of global framework in

cooperation uh I think we're we're

really going to need that I think one of

you mentioned the the the nation states

is there a risk of of Nations States

taking this technology and using them in

a in a dangerous way

or absolutely and um I you know I think

you always have to be really really

careful about like who this technology

who who you're putting this technology

in the hands of and I think it goes back

to like some of the things Sam's

thinking about like one of the things we

like I know they developed early on that

they chose not to release is like voice

cloning right there's technology already

where you can basically like capture

someone's voice but obviously that would

be very very dangerous because obviously

you can imagine how it could compromise

elections and major security risk so I

think one of the things is just thinking

about like who could these tools end up

in the hands of and therefore if you let

the genie out of the bottle could it get

like too dangerous and so be very

thoughtful about it yeah and Sam

according to one report you speculated

AR artificial in general intelligence

could acrew as much wealth as a $100

trillion that's wealth that you said you

would then redistribute is it

was that an accurate quote and do you

want to expand on it I I think the sort

of point I was trying to make was that I

thought it could like double the world's

GDP um which feels like reasonable to me

and certainly would be in line with

other technological

revolutions um yeah we do think this is

just going to be a massive driver of

productivity and already at this early

stage seeing what people are doing with

it to sort of vast improve products and

services do you think do you understand

have that would sound to a lot of people

though um for for for sure of course uh

but I think like this is where this is

where historical analoges are helpful

and this is where it is helpful to look

at the chart of world GDP over time and

you know if the if the world GDP can

grow at you know 7% a year like which

sounds hugely fast but maybe with a

technological shift like this um is not

that far away I'm always bad at doing

this in my head but I think that's like

only 10 years to

double

so I I think it

is you know I think it is worth taking

the potential of this technology to do

enormous good very seriously and I think

we can now see more of what that looks

like as people are adopting the tools

preview if you will for us Chad GPT five

um what what will the leaps in

technology be and and does it put you on

a straighter path to where you want to

be does it put us on a what path I'm

sorry a what path does it put you on a

straighter path in terms of your goals

um so we don't know yet uh you know

we're optimistic but we still have a lot

of work to do on it uh but I expect it

to be a significant Leap Forward um a

lot of the things that GPT for gets

wrong you know can't do much in the way

of reasoning sometimes just sort of

totally goes off the rails and like

makes a dumb mistake uh like even like a

six-year-old would ever make um I expect

it to be much much better in those ways

and to be able to be used for a much

wider variety of of more helpful tasks

and it does go off the rail sometimes is

that a result to back where we were we

were speaking about the lack of data or

the shortage of

data I think it's many things together

it's we're we're still just like so

early in developing such a complex

system um there's data issues there's

algorithmic issues uh the models are

still quite small relative to what they

will be someday and we know they get

predictably better uh so I think it's

more like there's many things that we

need to go improve all of and we're

still just like so early in the

technology you know the first iPhone was

still pretty buggy but it was like good

enough to be useful for people yeah I

think that like I I don't think things

are going to change as much in the world

in the next couple years people think

it's not linear it's things are going to

change slowly and then probably all of a

sudden and I think everyone's still

trying to figure out how to use this

technology if you take your phone and

you look at your home screen and ask

yourself a year and a half after chat

GPT launched how many apps are

fundamentally different because of AI

and very few of them are fundamentally

different so I think we're still in this

world where we're developing a lot of

the you know computation with Nvidia Sam

and team are developing the models and a

lot of the change to SI is going to

happen when people build on top of those

models the applications and there's so

many uses for it I mean you know one of

the big use cases that we're talking

about scientific discovery you know

about what this can do to drug research

uh to like you know some of the biggest

kind of uh types of ills in society

there's a lot this can do with education

we think this can essentially give

access to tutors to everyone around the

world um creative people I know there's

a lot of fear that artists can be

replaced but you know I think if artists

participate I went to design school I

think this is a technology that they can

use so I think we can go down the list

um and I think there are going to be a

lot of really exciting opportunities in

the next 3 to five years where do you

want to be in 5 years

Sam further along the same path you know

we'd like

to one of the most fun parts of the job

is getting like tons of email every day

from people who are using Tools in these

amazing ways I you know was able to like

diagnosed this health problem that I'd

had for years and I couldn't figure it

out and was making my life miserable and

I just typed my symptoms into Chachi PT

and I got this idea and went to see a

doctor and I'm totally cured or I've

been trying my whole life to learn these

things and couldn't do it and I got

Chach PT to be like a tutor for me or I

you know I'm like three times as

productive as a developer and I'm doing

these amazing things I'm the scientist

using it and I love getting those things

I love how much people love chbt I

really do and 5 years from now I just

hope it's a lot more of that I hope we

have put this tool into the world that

continues to Delight people and let them

do more and like be their best at

whatever they're doing well will we

having more conversations like this down

the road certainly as you go down your

path but I want to thank both of you Sam

wman Brian chesy for taking time and

being with us here in as great

[Music]

conversation nice job thanks for

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