The Science of Attraction: Why You’ve Not Met Someone - Matthew Hussey (Bonus Episode)
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Deep Dive,' the host discusses modern dating complexities with relationship expert Matthew Hussey. They explore the four stages of attraction, common dating mistakes, and practical advice for building connections. Hussey emphasizes the importance of understanding chemistry, perceived value, challenge, and compatibility in relationships. The conversation delves into maintaining desire in long-term relationships, highlighting the balance between love and desire, and the necessity of adapting to sustain attraction.
Takeaways
- 😀 The modern dating landscape is complex, with fewer organic meetings and an increased reliance on dating apps, leading to a paradox of choice and challenges in standing out online.
- 🔍 Matthew Hussey, a dating and relationship expert, emphasizes the importance of understanding the four stages of attraction: chemistry, perceived value, perceived challenge, and connection to build lasting relationships.
- 💡 Chemistry isn't just a mystical experience; it can be influenced by how we present ourselves, our movements, and the ability to create tension.
- 🏆 Perceived value in a relationship is about what we bring to the table, such as personality traits, life achievements, and social circles.
- 💰 Perceived challenge isn't about being 'hard to get,' but about ensuring that our value as a potential partner is something that needs to be earned through genuine engagement and commitment.
- 🤔 The importance of not rushing to judgment based on a single date or interaction, as it's crucial to understand the person beyond the initial charm or charisma.
- 🔗 The concept of 'unique pairing' in attraction, where two distinct yet complementary qualities in a person create a more profound appeal.
- 💌 The 'handkerchief' metaphor for modern dating suggests that small acts of service, like asking for a favor, can be an effective way to initiate conversation and connection.
- 🤝 The 'two-hit theory' encourages being approachable and engaging in small interactions with multiple people, which can lead to more organic and less pressured connections.
- 👫 Long-term relationships require balancing love and desire, with the understanding that desire often exists in the space between two people, and love builds as they get closer.
- 📚 For sustaining desire in a relationship, it's essential to listen to your partner's needs and pay attention to what stokes their feelings of love and attraction.
Q & A
What is the podcast 'Deep Dive' about and who hosts it?
-The podcast 'Deep Dive' is a weekly show where the host engages in conversations with authors, entrepreneurs, academics, experts, creators, and other inspiring individuals to understand their journeys and the strategies and tools they use to build a life they love.
How has modern dating evolved compared to the past, according to the podcast?
-Modern dating has become more complex due to factors such as the prevalence of online dating, the decline of in-person events, and the paradox of choice where everyone seems just a swipe away. This contrasts with the past where choices were fewer and relationships were often formed through more organic means, such as marrying a neighbor or someone from the local community.
What are the four stages of attraction as discussed in the podcast?
-The four stages of attraction mentioned in the podcast are chemistry, perceived value, perceived challenge, and connection. These stages can help individuals understand and self-diagnose potential issues in their relationships.
Why is 'perceived challenge' important in maintaining attraction, and what does it entail?
-Perceived challenge is important because it adds an element of desirability and intrigue to a relationship. It does not mean being 'hard to get' but rather ensuring that your value has a 'price' and must be earned by the other person through genuine actions and respect.
What is the 'handkerchief' metaphor used by Matthew Hussey, and what does it signify?
-The 'handkerchief' metaphor is used by Matthew Hussey to illustrate a subtle way for women to initiate interactions with men. It refers to an old-fashioned practice where a woman would 'accidentally' drop a handkerchief to give a man an opportunity to approach her, thus allowing her to be proactive in a socially acceptable manner.
How does Matthew Hussey define 'unique pairing' in the context of attraction?
-A 'unique pairing' in the context of attraction is when two distinct qualities that are both attractive on their own come together in one person, creating a 3D effect that is mesmerizing. For example, someone who is sexy and also goofy can create a unique pairing that is more attractive than the sum of its parts.
What is the 'two-hit theory' mentioned in the podcast, and how can it be applied in social situations?
-The 'two-hit theory' suggests that when entering a social environment, one should engage in small interactions with multiple people (the first hit). These interactions make it easier to have more in-depth conversations later (the second hit) because the initial contact has already established a level of approachability and openness.
What mistakes do people often make while dating, as discussed in the podcast?
-Some common dating mistakes discussed include overvaluing initial chemistry, misjudging a person's character based on superficial traits, and not being open to different types of people who may not fit the usual 'type'. Additionally, people often overlook the importance of compatibility in a relationship.
How does the podcast address the issue of 'nice guys' and the common stereotype associated with them?
-The podcast challenges the stereotype of 'nice guys' by suggesting that labeling someone as 'nice' can be misleading and may prevent individuals from exploring potential relationships with people who may not initially seem exciting or attractive but could offer a deeper connection.
What advice does Matthew Hussey give for maintaining long-term desire in a relationship?
-Matthew Hussey advises paying attention to the moments that stoke desire in your partner and replicating those in the future. He also emphasizes the importance of listening to your partner's needs and giving them what they require to feel loved and desired, even if it's different from what you personally crave.
What is the role of 'compatibility' in a successful relationship according to the podcast?
-Compatibility is crucial for a successful relationship as it ensures that both partners want to live the same kind of life and have aligned values. Without compatibility, even strong admiration, connection, and commitment can lead to a relationship that is not fulfilling or sustainable.
Outlines
🎙️ Introduction to the Podcast and Modern Dating Challenges
The host opens the podcast by expressing excitement about engaging with various inspiring individuals. The discussion shifts to modern dating, noting its complexities compared to previous generations where choices were fewer but relationships were more straightforward. Today, dating apps and online interactions introduce challenges like standing out on a small screen and dealing with the paradox of choice. The host mentions Matthew Hussey, a dating and relationship expert, who will provide insights into navigating these issues.
💑 Matthew Hussey's Background and Approach to Dating Advice
This paragraph delves into Matthew Hussey's journey from public speaking to becoming a renowned dating and relationship coach. It highlights his initial setbacks, such as being rejected by Dale Carnegie's office, and his eventual success in helping women with dating advice. Hussey's perspective as a male advisor in a predominantly female field is emphasized, stressing the value of a man's viewpoint in bridging communication gaps between men and women.
🧲 The Four Stages of Attraction According to Matthew Hussey
The conversation with Matthew Hussey explores the concept of attraction, breaking it down into four distinct phases: chemistry, perceived value, perceived challenge, and connection. Each component is discussed, highlighting how they contribute to building attraction. The importance of not rushing into assessments and maintaining a balance between the components is stressed, as well as the role of chemistry in attraction.
🔄 The Importance of Balance in Attraction and Relationship Stages
The paragraph discusses the pitfalls of misjudging the importance of different stages in a relationship. It warns against placing too much value on the initial stages of attraction and chemistry, which can lead to overlooking long-term compatibility. The four stages of a relationship—admiration, connection, commitment, and compatibility—are outlined, emphasizing the necessity of a mutual 'yes' to progress through these stages.
🚫 Understanding Common Dating Mistakes and the Role of Projection
Here, the host and Matthew Hussey address common dating mistakes, such as focusing too much on someone's charm or success without considering their potential as a partner. The discussion touches on the importance of not projecting our desires or insecurities onto potential partners and the dangers of ignoring the stages of a relationship.
🤔 Attraction as a Choice and the Influence of Past Experiences
This section delves into the nature of attraction, questioning whether it's a choice or a result of our past experiences. It explores the idea that we may be drawn to what we know, even if it's not beneficial, and the importance of being open to different types of people. The conversation also touches on the influence of social proof and the need to be aware of our own biases and patterns in attraction.
🎭 The Concept of Unique Pairing in Attraction
The paragraph introduces the concept of unique pairing in attraction, where two contrasting yet attractive qualities in a person create a more profound appeal. It discusses the importance of not being one-dimensional and the risks of doubling down on a single strength to the point where it becomes a weakness, using the analogy of being an album with diverse songs rather than a single hit.
📚 Matthew Hussey's Dating Advice and the 'Handkerchief' Metaphor
The host shares Matthew Hussey's dating advice, focusing on the metaphor of the 'handkerchief' as a way for women to initiate contact subtly. It discusses the importance of being approachable and the benefits of small acts of service in sparking connections. The advice aims to give women more proactive tools in their dating lives, without feeling like they're going against traditional norms.
🤝 The 'Two-Hit' Theory for Approachability and Initiating Conversations
This section introduces the 'two-hit' theory, which emphasizes the importance of being approachable and engaging in small interactions with multiple people in a social setting. The theory suggests that these initial interactions can lead to more organic and natural conversations later on, reducing the pressure and nervousness often associated with approaching someone attractive.
💏 Long-Term Relationships, Desire, and the Honeymoon Phase
The final paragraph explores the dynamics of long-term relationships, focusing on the distinction between love and desire. It discusses the honeymoon phase and the challenges of maintaining desire in a relationship where love has developed. The importance of understanding and meeting each other's needs for both love and desire is highlighted, as well as the value of listening to one's partner.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Attraction
💡Perceived Value
💡Perceived Challenge
💡Chemistry
💡Compatibility
💡Dating Apps
💡Paradox of Choice
💡Projection
💡Unique Pairing
💡Honeymoon Phase
💡Two-Hit Theory
Highlights
The modern dating world is complex, with fewer organic meetings and a reliance on dating apps which come with their own set of challenges.
The paradox of choice in dating apps leads to a small percentage of users receiving the majority of attention, leaving others feeling overlooked.
Social media contributes to feelings of envy and inadequacy by showcasing unattainable lifestyles.
Matthew Hussey's journey from public speaking to becoming a renowned dating and relationship expert.
Hussey's unique perspective as a male dating coach offering advice to women, acknowledging the male viewpoint in dating.
Attraction is not mystical but can be broken down into four phases: chemistry, perceived value, perceived challenge, and connection.
Chemistry is influenced by physical appearance, movement, and the ability to create tension.
Perceived value in dating is about what one brings to the table, including personality and life achievements.
Perceived challenge is key to sustainability in a relationship, not just playing 'hard to get'.
The importance of not overvaluing someone too quickly based on a single interaction or date.
Understanding the four stages of a relationship: admiration, connection, commitment, and compatibility.
The danger of mistaking intense chemistry for a solid foundation of a relationship.
The concept of 'unique pairing' in attraction, where two distinct qualities create a 3D effect of interest.
The importance of not being just one 'great song' but an 'album' with diverse qualities in a relationship.
The 'handkerchief' metaphor for women to initiate interactions without going against traditional dating norms.
Practical advice on how to approach someone you're interested in by asking for a small favor.
The 'two-hit theory' for being approachable and creating opportunities for natural conversations.
The distinction between love and desire in long-term relationships and the importance of maintaining both.
The honeymoon phase as a period of intense desire and the importance of recognizing what sustains desire in a relationship.
The skill of creating and maintaining love and long-lasting relationships is developable and shouldn't be left to chance.
Transcripts
hey friends and welcome back to Deep
dive the weekly podcast where every week
it's my immense pleasure to sit down
with authors entrepreneurs academics
experts creators and other inspiring
people and we find out how they got to
where they are and the strategies and
tools that we can learn from them to
help build a life that we love now
navigating the world of modern dating is
actually pretty hard these days back in
our parents generation there wasn't a
lot of choice but the fact that there
wasn't a lot of choice meant that it was
actually a lot easier to find love
because you would just marry the person
who owns the plot of land next door or
their daughter or their son or whatever
the case might be but nowadays things
are a little bit more complicated we are
much less likely to meet our potential
Partners organically and the sort of
decline of in real life events is very
much a thing and to counteract that we
are way more likely to meet our partners
online through dating apps or websites
and this comes with a whole bunch of
complicating factors like how do we best
stand out on a six-inch iPhone screen
and how do we take the right photos and
how do we come across in a way that like
is a bit quirky but not too quirky and
all of these different things that our
grandparents generation didn't even
really have to think about and added to
that we have the whole Paradox of choice
situation going on we where everyone is
just a swipe away and therefore you know
all of the stats around dating app users
show that basically the top one or two
percent of people get like 90 of the
swipes and that leaves the rest of us
feeling a bit sad that we're not getting
any swipes on dating apps and on top of
that we have this whole thing around
comparisons so apps like Instagram and
Tick Tock and all that kind of stuff
showcasing us Lifestyles that we don't
have or encouraging the feeling of envy
and jealousy and that feeling that we're
not quite good enough so we are going to
be talking about all that in this
episode of Deep dive where I had a very
lovely chat with Matthew Hussey now
Matthew is a dating and relationships
expert and coach and over the last 10
plus years he has helped millions of
people find love and build and maintain
strong relationships through his book
through his content through his
workshops his YouTube channel has nearly
3 million subscribers and his book get
the guy is in New York Times bestseller
now Matthew's Journey started out in
public speaking when he was a teenager
Matthew went to a Tony Robbins event in
London and he realized that the process
of communicating to a live audience was
something that he felt motivated and
inspired to do and then you know as
everyone does he had a few bumps in the
road he tried to get a job at Dale
Carnegie's office and he got rejected
but he took the rejection on his chin
and he decided to try and become a
public speaker and then after doing a
few public speaking gigs around London
he really ended up finding his niche in
helping women navigate the world of
dating so he's a guy who gives dating
advice for women and his stuff broadly
helps women become more confident and
become better in their interactions and
dealings with men and hopefully helps
build better relationships overall now
it's very understandable that you might
be thinking if you have not yet come
across Matthew Hussey's work before and
especially if you're a woman why should
I as a woman be taking dating advice
from a guy and one thing I really like
about Matthew is that he fully
acknowledges that this is a thing there
are plenty of women out there giving
dating and dating advice for women but
there are not that many men giving
dating advice for women and so it's just
really a different perspective from the
side of the guy and it's kind of a good
way to bridge the communication and
expectation gap between men and women
anyway in this episode we're going to
learn about firstly the four stages of
Attraction secondly we're going to talk
about mistakes that we make while dating
thirdly we're going to go over some
practical dating advice and fourthly
we're going to be talking about the
secret to long-lasting desire now one of
the first things that Matthew and I
talked about is how attraction works
most of us tend to think of Attraction
as this magical thing that just happens
and you hear all these phrases like I
felt a spark and we had great chemistry
and we just hit it off that speaks to
this almost mystical nature of what
attraction really is but if we actually
break it down and look at the evidence
that people have looked at around what
actually builds attraction then
Matthew's going to talk about how it's
actually split up into four distinct
phases
I talk about the
um
there being a kind of a formula and I
don't mean this crudely I I just mean
there are certain components to deep and
Lasting attraction
you have chemistry
um
perceived value
perceived challenge
and connection
the reason I like this model is because
when you look at this you can usually
see you can sort of self-diagnose
where something may be going wrong
chemistry is interesting because there's
certain there's a certain intangible
there and an unknown there and not we
certainly can't control all of it but we
can control some of it you know with the
way the way that we look how well we
take care of ourselves the way we move
importantly is a big factor in chemistry
which is why you can sometimes see
someone in photos and think they're
really attractive and then you meet them
in real life and you kind of go Oh weird
I don't feel the same way it's also why
you can get back from a date and and say
oh my God I just had this amazing date
with this incredibly hot person and if
you show pictures of that person to your
friends they're like
okay yeah
I guess you know because you you were
there yeah you were there you saw how
they move how they smile how they
gesture how they their micro Expressions
so there's certainly things we can do to
affect chemistry uh and obviously you
can create tension too which is a big
factor in chemistry in chemistry then
there's perceived value and perceived
value is all these things that that we
are and do that bring value to the table
it might be our personality uh it might
be the things that we're good at in life
it might be our life the life that we've
built
um can sometimes be our friends and
family you know sometimes you meet
someone's friends and family and you go
whoa this is what a life this is to come
into they have an amazing group of
people around them so much love so much
so there's a lot of ways for perceived
value to to manifest itself then there's
perceived challenge
and the interesting thing about
perceived value is it goes down
regardless of how many things are in
that category
if there's no perceived Challenge
and perceived challenge is not uh
the kind of I don't know a typical way
of thinking about it I guess would be
like hard to get
it's not that's a cheap way to create
challenge because the problem with hard
to get is you can't keep it up forever
the moment you are got yeah
if someone's if your attraction was
built around the getting then you can't
sustain it
but if
the the real beautiful sustainable way
to create challenge is for there to be
uh for your value to have a price
okay what do you mean
that that your value doesn't come for
free your value is something that has to
be earned
by the someone showing up in the way
you're prepared to show up by someone
being prepared to make the kind of
sacrifices you're prepared to make for
someone
um by someone giving to you on a level
that you're willing to give respecting
you on a level that that you respect
them
um
and also not giving someone too much
credit too quickly
that's a a big problem when we come from
a needy place when we come from a place
of insecurity we start giving people
credit they don't deserve yet
I just met them I just had the most
amazing date with the most amazing
person oh my God they're incredible
based on what
based on how on what basis what
information could you have possibly got
on one date
that enables you to say this
you
you have been seduced by a kind of charm
Charisma maybe the fact that you did
something really fun on the day the fact
that they made you laugh a lot the fact
that they told stories about their past
that made them relatable or sympathetic
or seem really authentic all of that is
great I'm not I'm not saying be
inherently suspicious I'm saying
you don't know yeah
you don't know so on what basis are you
giving them all of this value already
based on projection
and based on insecurity this immediate
putting them on a pedestal and putting
yourself down here and when someone
smells that
they don't see an equal anymore
and that's that's what I mean when I say
challenge I don't mean artificially
constructing
games or Hoops for people to jump
through
I mean that the the criteria you have
for someone has to be real yeah it has
to be real like
it's you and I met today for the first
time
really enjoying our conversation hope
you are too absolutely you know but we
don't know each other yet as friends you
don't know if I'd be reliable if you
needed something you don't know if I
would show up to support you if
something went wrong in your life you
don't know you don't know any of that
so
you know it would be dangerous to go
away and make it an assessment on how
great of a friend I would be yep based
on this exchange it what what you would
hope in an organic situation is that you
and I go
this was really really fun we got on
really well this was a great
conversation I would like to get to know
this guy better that would be like it'd
be really cool if we could hang out
outside of the podcast
but it's not I have to be friends with
with Ali you know like we I have to
because he's a he's an amazing guy you
know like yeah that's that now that's
projection that's dangerous because I'm
basing that on the fact that you're
clearly outwardly a very impressive
human and what you've achieved what
you've done is very impressive and you
seem to have had a really amazing kind
of impact on a lot of people and those
are all amazing things those are amazing
things in their own right
it's not about devaluing those
but
I have no idea what your value would be
as a friend
until we try being friends
and the mistake people make in dating
commonly
is they look at someone's
stats
how Charming were they how charismatic
were they how successful are they
um you know where are they in their life
what kind of person do they seem to be
but none of that exists in relation to
to you
that's all just you admiring
what this person has or is
but none of it says this person's going
to be a great boyfriend or a great
girlfriend none of it says they're going
to be loyal none of it says they're
going to be reliable none of it says
they're going to be a great teammate all
it says is this person seems on these
metrics
to be attractive and in any relationship
you have to go through for for in terms
of importance you have to go through
four stages
one is admiration
that's just where I can see someone and
admire them from either up close or far
wow this person's pretty impressive and
attractive not very important in the
stages not important necessary but not
important yep
then there's a connection
or chemistry you both you need you know
that's the next stage of do we feel
connected to each other and is there a
kind of chemistry all right now it's
slightly more important because now it
becomes Mutual yeah now it's not just me
admiring you it's oh there's something
between us yeah
not important
because necessary yeah but not important
how many people have ruined their lives
over the fact that they had chemistry
with someone even when that person was a
terrible partner a terrible person to
base their their decisions on
the next stage is a commitment
okay I admire you we have mutual
chemistry and connection and we're both
actually saying yes to each other I deal
with people every day where they have
this stage but that person isn't saying
yes
they're saying yeah I'd like to see you
this Friday
at 11 o'clock
but they're not saying yes to an actual
relationship
so you need commitment to go to the next
stage of importance but many people are
treating something like it has total
importance even though they're only at
the second stage so you need a yes you
need commitment
now you would say if you've got that
that's the most important thing you can
have you've got someone you admire
you've got someone you have a connection
with in chemistry and you've got someone
who is committed
it would seem like that was everything
but that kind of idea is it Virgil love
conquers all love does not conquer all
two people saying yes to each other
doesn't
make for a long-term relationship you
also have to have the fourth stage of
importance which is compatibility
are you actually compatible because if
you're not
you can say yes I want to be with you
yes I'm committed
but that lack of compatibility will show
up in ways that will make both of you
miserable well what do you mean by
compatibility it could be anything it
could be uh my idea of a good time is
staying home watching movies and yours
is constantly traveling around the world
it could be your idea of a good time is
going out and drinking and doing drugs
and I don't want to live that life and
we've both said yes to each other
but
that you know our idea of what is a good
life is completely different or our idea
of loyalty is completely different your
idea of loyalty is that I don't have sex
with anyone my idea of loyalty is that
you don't emotionally cheat on me
in the texts you send yeah you know that
we've both said yes to each other we
have admiration connection commitment
and yet I am miserable because of what
your definition of loyalty is
so compatibility is do we both want to
live the same kind of life and and do
our values line up and do we both have
the same idea two people can say I value
kindness but we can have very different
standards
for what kindness actually means
so
without that stage so many things go
wrong my
what what I mean to say with all of this
is that
we lose our value in dating
when we stop paying attention
to the appropriate level of importance
at different stages
if you
take stage two
I found someone I have a connection with
as the be-all Endor and the thing that
you
martyr yourself in service of
you lose all your value
you you are now the person who spends a
lifetime uh accepting really poor
treatment from someone because every
time you see them it's amazing you don't
understand when we're together it's so
good it's so incredible they're so there
for me that the sex is amazing the
chemistry is amazing we have such
amazing conversations
what's the problem I haven't heard from
them in two weeks
but Matt you don't understand the
connection is incredible you don't know
like this this is really important to me
why
why because you you have miscalculated
the value of stage two and when you do
that you lose your value because someone
realizes your value what you're willing
to give has no price
it's free it does not need to be earned
so your perceived challenge
drops and when you're perceived when
there's no challenge to you when someone
realizes your value has no price
then you lose respect and you and you
end up losing real value as a result
which is crazy but I know it all sounds
kind of heady but it
you know it really this stuff is real
whether you whether when someone there
will be people listening to this
guarantee there'll be someone in the
comments
who says oh does it all need to be so
difficult can't you just be yourself and
the answer is no
because you may not be doing the things
that make you confident or that show
your real value you shouldn't be uh
someone you're not
but people Define being themselves as
holding on to all of their the things
that make them make bad decisions or
that make them uh their trauma or the
things that they haven't healed or the
things that make them chase after
someone who will ruin their life that's
not being yourself that's that's not
healing that's not doing the things that
are necessary for you to attract a much
more quality version of connection and
love in your life so the reason that
I've geeked out on all of this stuff is
because
the consequences of ignoring what I'm
saying are a life of suffering and I
have watched it over and over again I
have watched women get to their 40s
where they just gave up 10 years of
their life to a guy that was never
giving them what they wanted was never
on the same path as them but they
ignored it because they valued the
connection so much
well they valued the chemistry so much
or both and now their window for having
children of Their Own
has has gone
and the grief that comes after that is
profound Okay so we've talked about the
four components of Attraction let's now
go into some of the mistakes that we
make while dating
one thing I've often heard and I don't
know I don't know to what extent this is
just a stereotype or if it's actually
actually a thing
um
the the Trope of women saying something
like you know I know I want to marry Mr
Wright but I find myself attracted to Mr
exciting and
I get I guess it's a situation that
you've dealt with I I'm I'm kind of
guessing but and and I guess I want to
lead lead from that into the question of
to what extent is attraction a choice
and how much like if for example I find
myself attracted to the sort of person
who is not good for me and whatever
whatever that might look like can I
nudge my deep core into being attracted
to the nice guy or the whatever or is it
like uh like what's what what's going on
there what a fantastic question
um
I think that to an extent we Chase what
we know hmm
and sometimes being attracted to
something other than what we know or has
historically have been attracted to is
um a matter of curiosity
of actually opening ourselves up to a
different kind of person to a different
kind of situation and exploring it for
all it is we tend to be very we make up
our minds quite quickly about things
even labeling someone a nice person the
the you know Elaine the button would say
they're not that nice
do you know nice is a it's a kind of a
mask they could be as freaky as the
freakiest person you've ever met when it
comes down to it you know this this idea
of labeling someone a nice person is um
or labeling someone the bad boy why what
because they didn't call you for three
days that makes them a bad boy
you know but because they were a bit of
a jerk to the to someone like they're
the bad boy like what do you
what is that what is that label
do you think they're the bad boy all of
the time like you think they're that
person 24 hours a day of course they're
not but based on this label you've given
them they're exciting based on this
label you've given this person they're
boring so I think that yes of course
there is a sense of there's a kind of
reflexive attraction that we can have
for people but I think that's a
sometimes a lack of imagination and a
lack of curiosity if you took time to
actually get to know
somebody I'm not saying you go on a date
with someone where there's absolutely
zero chemistry and you just keep hitting
and hoping yeah and going oh I'll see
them again because maybe one day
chemistry could come about no I don't I
don't believe that
but
I always think if if you feel like some
some kind of interesting tickle in a
direction that you haven't felt it
before and you go well this isn't
normally my type or this isn't normally
my personal this isn't I feel something
follow that
give that chance because that might
actually lead you somewhere you've never
been before and where you've never been
before might be the answer
I think that we we prejudge a lot we
judge what we're supposed to have what
we think our friends and family would
would validate yeah you know oh he's
really good looking well done yeah you
know and you so you kind of start
looking for that even though you might
find that an attraction with this person
that doesn't look like that
you feel validated by the fact that
other people are
are giving you the the social proof
around that person so you feel like you
keep and that's by the way it's how
people get themselves in so much trouble
they show off their their partner and
their oh my God he's so tall handsome
and successful look at you good job
and they're miserable at home with this
person but every time they go out and
hear
well he's he's very impressive and they
go oh I should like yeah I should I
should I should be grateful this
person's amazing I should continue to be
grateful you know
so we have to be careful of the outside
conditioning yep
um and we also have to be careful Dr
Romani would and people in her
profession uh psychologists would talk
about the kind of the trauma Bond
that exists when we've been used to you
know a parent that neglected us or that
that was very hot and cold in our lives
and that becomes kind of what we know
and so we get attracted to to that
behavior in others
um and we try and complete a journey
that never felt finished When We Were
Young And it so we also have to be very
careful of what we're labeling
attraction am I labeling this trauma and
this heightened sense of anxiety that I
have around you because you're fickle
and you never make me feel secure am I
labeling that excitement oh I I just
what is it I've got with this person I
and the more they they don't call me the
more I'm like oh they there's something
special about this one why is it why why
are they getting more attractive the
less they try yeah what's going on here
you know we have to really suspect those
things in ourselves
and I think that an another way of
looking at attraction and again I'm not
this I'm not an advocate for don't care
about chemistry care about chemistry but
if you start to lay look at all the
things that would make an incredible
partner
and
and would make you feel secure and at
peace
and if you start valuing kind of a a
real sense of deep peace
over
the kind of drug-fueled high
then you are going to start looking at
people a little differently because
you're not going to over index for
chemistry you may still see it as
necessary it's a necessary ingredient
but I don't have to live my life trying
to find the greatest chemistry of my
life
it's the same way
you know when it comes to food or drugs
there's a feeling of I'm looking for the
greatest High
but the greatest High isn't the thing
that will make you the happiest
sustainably there's different kinds of
energy that make
a person attractive
I pride myself on the fact that if you
come to one of my speeches
you may just laugh and cry in the same
speech
that's that's what I call a unique
pairing in attraction a unique pairing
is when you find two different qualities
that are both attractive
but on their own can be a bit too
dimensional
but when you find them in the same
person
that creates a 3d effect that is
mesmerizing
so if you find someone who's really sexy
but then they can be completely Goofy
and make you laugh
that's a unique pairing you're like whoa
that's normally someone's just sexy
normally someone's just funny and I want
to eat pizza with them but I don't want
to go home with them
now I find someone that is super sexy
and then after the fact I want to spend
all day with them laughing
well we might just have a relationship
you know that's a unique pairing and I
think that a lot of people have
forgotten that they've they've become
addicted
to a certain way of being that has
worked for them yeah if it's being like
hard-headed in business that's worked
for them but the problem is you're what
and usually it starts young right what
we get validated for we keep doing if
you're funny you keep being funny if
you're successful you keep acquiring
more success if you're
if people like you for your looks then
you double down on that we all have
those things that we got validated for
early on and our validations become our
mutations they become the things that we
go we we keep doubling down on and we
become less and less Diversified in our
energy our personality
you can't be you can't be one great song
you have to be an album like every
everyone has to be an album some album
albums have sad songs they have happy
songs they have Up Tempo songs they have
slower songs you you gotta be able to be
all of those things and everyone should
ask themselves men and women alike
am I being an album
or am I being this this one great hit
and hoping that someone sticks around I
had a relationship with someone years
ago uh in my early 20s when or it was
just as I was approaching my 20s and I
remember asking this person why it
months after the relationship ended I
was like why did you not want to be in
it anymore
and she said honestly I said
yes
I guess she said it got boring
she said you were so ambitious
and that was really really attractive at
first
but then it was all you were
it was like you it was all you could
talk about it was all we did was you
just talk about work and whatever it was
never anything else and it was a very
important lesson for me in my life
because I realized that one side of a
unique pairing
can actually Christopher Hitchens uh
once said that
the key in relationships is not allowing
your advantages to negate themselves oh
nice and the in his case what he was
talking about is he was obviously a
formidable debater on the stage
and he did it for a living but
when he was at home
he said when he was in an argument with
his wife
the guy on stage would come out
and really think about how to win this
argument and even after the fact he
would go away and like work on his case
and come back and be like all right I've
got the death blow to your argument
and he realized there was no points for
that in his relationship this was the
mother of his children
he was not trying to win a debate on a
stage
your advantages can negate themselves
it's worth everyone asking what are
what are the strengths I've been riding
on
and where have they become my my
greatest weaknesses okay so those were
some of the mistakes that we've made
let's not talk about some dating advice
and and you know how we talked about
earlier that in our grandparents
generation there were a lot fewer issues
to navigate there were still issues to
navigate when it came to dating and
relationships and marriage but they were
different issues to what we have today
and so this is Matthew discussing some
of the dating advice that applies to the
modern day
I read a book
a very well-known book for women at the
time it was called the rules oh yeah I
read that a couple years ago it's super
interesting very interesting and I you
know I'm I don't
at the time there was some there was
something in there that I read and I
went
that's not true for me
you know there was a there was a
particular sentence or a chapter I can't
remember but it basically said if a guy
isn't coming over to you
then he's he's not interested
they'll forgive me if I misphrased that
but I it got that was the kind of tone
of it and I I remember thinking
everything about my life has said that
the opposite is true Yeah the more
interested I am yeah the less likely
yeah I remember I remember reading that
kind of stuff and thinking oh this is
wow this is you know I literally have
spent my life doing the opposite of that
and that kind of sparked something in me
because I thought
I wonder how many women
are only ever meeting the loudest guy in
the room yeah the one within with the
confidence to approach them whereas the
other 90 of dudes are just like a theme
of written off either as not interested
or as
um
cowards yeah
you know you if you don't and I I would
hear women say stuff like that when you
know if you don't if you don't have the
kind of stones to approach me yeah then
I don't want to know you I don't know if
I yeah I want you anyway and I felt very
rejected by that because I was like
I'm like a good human being you know I
would be great for for someone in a
relationship I have a lot to give I you
know
and the idea that I would be measured
simply on that moment that I decided not
to go and interrupt someone's
conversation and sort of say hey
um based on nothing at all really yeah
other than the fact that I think you're
pretty I'd like to get to know you which
is a problem for men
from the outset is you don't want to be
superficial
you want to form a connection that says
hey I'm not just some creep I'm not just
objectifying people I actually want to
get to know you but the very reason
you've gone over to someone in the first
place is because you find them
attractive that's a hard thing to yeah
it's a big sort of cognitive dissonance
there where you sort of yeah you you
know why have you come over to me yeah
because I have felt like what you did in
the last year at work was really
impressive and you don't know that so
that's for the most part is what you
have to go on is someone's at best you
could say someone's energy if you really
wanted to make it about something that
didn't feel as superficial as looks
something about your style exactly your
aura yeah but but I um
I started to think well
there's actually a lot of really amazing
guys out there
who aren't in the habit of racing up to
Every Woman they're attracted to
how do you get women Meeting those guys
because if you could just solve that
problem you actually are gonna you're
gonna be responsible for a hell of a lot
of relationships
and this was
pre-dating apps so dating apps
solved some of that problem because it
gave people an opportunity to approach
whoever they liked from the safety of a
screen which we know has its problems
too because you could do now all sorts
of things from the safety of being
behind the screen
but I
before dating apps I I figured well if I
can get women to be able to approach a
guy
that they wouldn't normally meet
because he's kind of hanging back and
just
you know doing his thing and he's not
the kind of guy that's running up to
everyone all the time
that will have been to some effect and
so I I started talking about this idea
of the handkerchief and I kind of became
known for the videos
and that was one of the handkerchief for
people metaphor that I started speaking
about very very early on where I it was
my way of telling saying to women
you don't have to
tell yourself this story that if you
approach someone you're somehow going
against your
nature or what's or the way things are
supposed to be if that's even true but
but a lot of women have been conditioned
to believe that the guy is supposed to
make the move and I would say well if
you think that's old-fashioned you don't
know what old-fashioned really is
a hundred years ago a woman might walk
past a guy find him attractive and
inadvertently drop her handkerchief in
front of him he would see it pick it up
and think this is an extraordinary
opportunity to be a man and he'd take it
over to and he'd say Madam you dropped
this and and she would say did I and
they would now have a conversation he
may have felt he was being the proactive
one by ah I'm gonna pick up this
handkerchief and walk it back over to
her what a great opportunity to make a
move
but she had initiated that move she was
the one who made the move she just made
him feel like he was the one making the
move
and that there's some there seemed to be
something very interesting in that to me
the okay regardless of whether you think
women can or can't make the move of
course they can
but it almost what I was getting at is
it doesn't matter
what you believe
if I can give you a way to be proactive
that kind of feels like it's a bit under
the radar then I'm going to get even
people who feel like it's not my job to
make the move I'm even gonna get them
being proactive in ways they haven't
before so I started translating the idea
of the handkerchief into practical
things that women could do and it was
the results were really stunning because
women suddenly felt like
they had choice
that they never had before they were
able to get dates
and exchange numbers with people and
create activity in their love life
and they hadn't been doing that for some
for some people for years
they had never had much opportunity in
their love lives
and all of a sudden not only were they
being proactive and creating opportunity
but they were doing it with people they
were attracted to they would being they
were choosing instead of being chosen
which was very cool so what are the what
are the modern day handkerchiefs on that
topic I so there was a a book that
talked about the
the idea that likability
was affected by our ability to do
someone a favor
um now what the study showed was not the
obvious that if we do someone a favor
they'll like us more is that if we do
someone a favor we like them more
as long as the favor is not onerous it
can't be something difficult but if
we're able to do a small act a small
favor for somebody we actually like them
more
and I started looking at that in the
context of the handkerchief and I
thought that sort of feels like it
applies there especially it's almost
feels more potent in the direction of
man to woman because a lot of guys have
this sort of
you know I want to be needed I want to
feel like I'm able to do something for a
woman I want to feel necessary which is
a big problem right now in dating
because men are feeling less and less
necessary uh and you know everyone's
trying to figure out their place right
now in the world which is I find really
fascinating uh the the kind of rules are
being Rewritten but
what I saw is with the handkerchief is
oh a guy
has an opportunity to kind of perform a
small favor which is giving the
handkerchief back so then I said well
what's an equivalent of of them there's
all sorts of little ways you can ask for
a favor you could say excuse me would
you just watch my jacket for a second
while I use the restroom which could be
done
in a coffee shop in the daytime I just
need to use the restroom when you watch
my jacket for a second
um or you know I always like the start
of the phrase being I could you know
could I get your help with something or
I could really use your help with
something could you watch my jacket for
a second while I go to the bathroom do
you know anywhere good around here for X
what did you order that looks really
good I you know it
these are all very small things but they
give someone the opportunity to do a
small Act of service for us what I also
like about it is it breaks the ice in a
way that doesn't feel like breaking the
ice so when you come back from the
bathroom and you say thanks so much for
for watching my jacket
if you then say how's your day going
anyway
um or you know it looks like that that
book looks really interesting or
whatever
you feel like you're already starting at
30 mile an hour yeah
versus if you were just there and you
turned to someone and went how's your
day going yeah that's a bit weird now
you can do it but
it's a lot of people feel like they need
that like 30 miles an hour to get going
so that became my version for people of
dropping the handkerchief is ask a very
small and easy favor of someone
and then allow that to be the bridge to
a natural conversation nice
yeah that I guess is fairly us somewhat
similar to the whole uh indirect openers
that guys will often use around like hey
you know can you tell me where the
nearest coffee shop is or something like
that I'm oh I'm new here oh where are
you from it's like it's just a way of
prompting a conversation in a way that's
not something like hi I thought you were
pretty and I wanted to talk to you 100
which takes a large amount of well
almost too much confidence
yes and you know there's how you they
can make someone else feel awkward and
there's all sorts of things I I think
for anyone else for anyone out there man
or woman one of the things if if this is
the kind of content you're interested in
that I have found most helpful in my
life
is something I call two hit Theory which
is the idea that
how when you go out into any environment
you have to be someone who's easy to
talk to you focusing on approachability
as as important as focusing on how to
approach
and
what a lot of us do is we go into an
environment we wait until we see someone
that we're attracted to
and then we obsess over what the hell we
would say if we tried to talk to that
person and now we spend the whole
time that we're there becoming more and
more nervous as the stakes get higher
and higher and we start to imagine how
wonderful this person is that we think
is attractive and how lucky the person
is that gets them and all the thing the
qualities about them that we wouldn't
admire if we got to know them they
become something they become this
projection that is so removed
from what we actually know about them
right now which is we just saw an
attractive person that's it
two hit theory is when you go into a
room
the first hit as it were is
small interactions with people
it might literally be like that looks
really good
because someone ordered a plate of food
and you're like that looks great that's
a that's a hit that's an interaction
it might be
um walking up to the bar or the counter
and someone's next to you and you're
like hey how's it going
like a moment you don't remove the
intention there's no intention it
doesn't need to go anywhere it doesn't
need to be a conversation nothing just a
moment
and you do that with more people than
you normally would you have these little
hits
now what to me is really really powerful
about this is such an understated thing
but what's really powerful about it is
most people when they go to any
environment they're either alone or
they're with one or two friends
outside of those one or two friends
who's the person they're most likely
to talk to at some point during the
evening at some point during that event
they're going to talk to the the most
approachable person they're going to
talk to the person they've already had
some small interaction with that became
a kind of green light for a natural or
organic Exchange
if you
if the natural or organic exchange with
someone it's weird to say that you're
their third best friend in the room yeah
[Laughter]
and if you go around
being the third best friend of everybody
who came with two people
just because you are a little bit more
approachable than everybody else
then it's you're gonna find that a some
interactions just gravitate back to you
an hour later or two hours later
B even if you're the one who initiates
you already have that initial
interaction to go by
and the fact that that initial
interaction didn't come with you
like there's always something about
someone coming over to you and talking
to you for the first time and then sort
of standing there and facing you as
they're talking to you and you're almost
unable to process whether you find them
attractive or whether you uh want are
interested in what they have to say
because you're so busy worrying about
are they ever going to leave yeah
so when someone does this to hit theory
that that first thing that first
interaction you have with people
helps them also they've already
recognized that you're not the kind of
person that needs them yep
you left the first time
so now when you speak to someone it the
stakes feel much lower for something
like safety as well like you don't feel
as if yeah they're just not going to
leave they're just going oh God it's
like getting on you know what it's like
you know when you get on a plane and the
person next to you
starts talking to you hmm now maybe
you're in a sociable mood and that's
awesome
or maybe
like me you sort of have a whole bunch
of things that you're kind of excited to
do on that plane one of them being
nothing yeah
and there's a part of you and it's not
the best part of you but there's a part
of you that instantly goes oh no am I
next to a talker is this now gonna be my
flight
when someone says something
for 30 seconds
and then says well it's nice to meet you
and then goes back to their book you go
oh yeah okay and then it's almost like
you wouldn't mind if you ended up
talking to them more because you go oh
this person's chilled they've got their
own thing going on that's I I liken it
to that and too often when we're in the
mode of I want to get something
we forget to communicate to other people
that we don't actually need them so at
this point we've spoken about attraction
we've spoken about the mistakes that we
make in dating we've spoken about some
tips for navigating the dating Market in
the modern era and we ended the
conversation by talking about long-term
relationships
a couple questions about long-term
relationships so uh
honeymoon phase what's what's the deal
with that yeah I you know I'm I'm I
don't want to be really careful on this
because
talking uh from a place of humility I
I've not been in the kinds of long-term
relationships that other people have I'm
now engaged
um incredibly uh Happy
and excited about the future
um but there will be people who
you know have like Esther perel's work
is a really big influence for me because
this is someone who not only has had a
long-term marriage but has written
extensively on the subject of Love and
Desire yeah in relationships and I would
absolutely Point people to her book
mating in captivity which I think is an
extraordinary read and something that so
many people can learn from to paraphrase
Esther's work which is no doubt much
more eloquently put in her book she says
that there's love and there's desire and
that love
um
well let's start with desire desire is
what exists first
we see someone we become attracted to
them and we desire them and we want to
close down the space between us and Them
desire exists in the space right the
mystery who are you what are you all
about could you like me could I win you
over could you know I want to know you
and then as someone says yes
[Music]
you have the building of love
so we start to know each other we start
to get closer and closer and closer and
closer and closer and we have this
feeling of kind of Oneness between us
and and all of that Fosters feelings of
love
uh as Esther would put it the Paradox
becomes how do you continue to desire
that which you already have
and so now as you kind of become that
unit
there's less space between you they may
feel like there's no space between you
and so desire becomes suffocated because
desire exists in that space
and then you so then you enter that
world of well what does
what does desire look like in a long
term
context we don't want to play a game in
a long-term relationship where we kind
of are constantly making our partner
feel on edge yeah so that there's a
sense of danger and and yet
desire sometimes wants a sense of danger
desire sometimes wants a sense of
mystery desire wants a sense of
spontaneity of the new of the
unrecognizable now people want it to
differ in extents right the honeymoon
period is going to be much more
important to some people than others
because some people are are wired and
engineered to want security
so for them love is going to be much
more important for them to achieve than
to maintain feelings of desire for other
people they're engineered in the
opposite way it's much more important
for them to constantly feel like that
excitement than it is for them to feel
safety not that they don't want to feel
safe at all but it's just the balance is
different
and so I think what's kind of
interesting is
firstly to to to try to
find somebody who's not engineered
completely differently than you hmm
where they you know it's all love and no
desire or it's all desire and no love
because that's going to be miserable
but you may find that you're not
calibrated exactly the same in those two
things and that's okay
but
but that to me is where it's really
important to listen
to your partner's needs we we get so
caught up in a relationship in figuring
out what we need what's my love language
what what makes me feel loved and the
and the dangerous thing is that
we start giving to somebody else what we
would wish they would give to us so if
we like security then and we think
that's the highest thing you can give
someone then we start going out of our
way to give them as much security as
possible I love you I love you I love
you I love you I'll never leave you I
think you're the most amazing person on
Earth and so on we give them lots and
lots of security right and we end up
giving them that thing that We crave but
it doesn't mean you're wrong for craving
it just means that you're you're not
necessarily listening
to what that person requires because
they may just be engineered a little
different so I think it's really
valuable to just think about what
what are the things
that make my partner that Stoke desire
in my partner because in a way that to
me is what the honeymoon the honeymoon
period is a couple of things firstly
it's thinking we're perfect I think
you're perfect you think I'm perfect and
that just feels unbelievable and idyllic
and then we realize we're not perfect
and they go you go through a storming
period and the dust settles and now you
have a real relationship where we
actually see each other and say I'm
still here even though I really see you
now that's the to me that's the
transition into a real relationship
um but but beyond that it's also I think
the the honeymoon period is that period
of intense desire yeah
I think it's worth paying attention as
you transition in your relationship to
whatever the next phase is really pay
attention to what are the moments where
my partner
feels desire hmm
and this can be a kind of exercise in
really paying attention like right write
them down and it may sound weird to
people but like right because you will
forget
write down I just did this thing tonight
I just wore a completely different kind
of outfit and something about that
outfit really got them going yeah I'm
not even saying it was a really sexy
outfit it might be a an outfit you
wouldn't even even imagined was sexy to
them yeah but something about that
outfit did it for them yeah he's like
okay noted yeah
oh I just went away with my friends for
a weekend
and when I came back there was this
intensity okay that's interesting
um
all of those little moments are they're
like a formula
that can help you sustain that desire
within a relationship and I think when
you stop paying attention to those
things it's another way of not paying
attention to the health of your
relationship the health of your
relationship isn't two-dimensional it's
not just
how many things have I done for my
partner today
but I don't understand why they're so
ungrateful I I made them this I did this
I called them at the end of that and
asked them how it went I did that I did
it okay there's all of that is beautiful
but
but value in a relationship isn't
two-dimensional
sometimes value to someone is hey you
haven't seen your friends in a minute
you should go see your friends
like go hang out with that you haven't
seen those two friends in a while you
should go hang out with them are you
sure what really I feel like you'd be a
oh I'll be good I'll chill I'm gonna do
some stuff I really want to do but you
should go do that that's another form of
value if if you crave security that
might be unnatural to you because you
might be like I don't want them to go
out with their friends and leave me for
a night yeah that might be the very
thing that makes them go whoa I've never
had anyone do that before I've never had
anyone encourage me to go and have time
with people I care about they're always
sort of jealously guarding my presence
and my time so there's another form of
value
that to me is like real Mastery in in
relationships is going beyond what is
comfortable to give beyond what is feels
normal for you to give and really
listening to
what what makes them
feel a certain way whether it's love or
desire what Stokes that in that person I
mean pay attention so that I can
replicate that in the future so I hope
you enjoyed that conversation with
Matthew Hussey I think main thing to say
is hey I love the conversation I hope
you did as well and secondly we're not
born knowing how to create love and
create long-lasting relationships it is
definitely your skill and it's a skill
that we can absolutely develop over time
and given the importance of
relationships in our lives it's probably
a thing we don't want to leave to
complete chance into pure accident and I
hope this interview with Matthew helped
you think about dating or relationships
or attraction in maybe a slightly
different way than you did before and I
hope you gained something from it and if
you're interested in checking out
Matthew's stuff that will be linked in
the video description or in the show
notes wherever you happen to be watching
this so thank you so much for watching
I'll see you hopefully in the next
episode bye
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