How to Instantly Achieve a Calm State | Sam Harris on Impact Theory
Summary
TLDRIn this impactful discussion, neuroscientist and philosopher Sam Harris delves into the nature of anxiety, the malleability of belief systems, and the pursuit of well-being. Harris emphasizes the power of framing and mindfulness in altering our emotional responses, suggesting that our internal narratives significantly shape our experiences. He advocates for a scientific mindset, applying critical thinking to all aspects of life, including spirituality and ethics. The conversation explores the importance of aligning our actions with a broader social good and the potential for meditation to cultivate mental resilience and clarity.
Takeaways
- 🧠 The human experience of anxiety and excitement share similar physiological responses, with the key difference being the framing and story we tell ourselves about the situation.
- 🌏 Sam Harris, a neuroscientist, philosopher, and best-selling author, is known for his unique perspective on a wide range of complex subjects and his ability to communicate difficult ideas clearly.
- 💡 The concept of a 'good life' is open-ended and involves the pursuit of human well-being, which includes effortless cooperation with others and the reduction of suffering and conflict.
- 🤔 Harris emphasizes the importance of having a personal 'north star' or purpose, which can guide one's life direction and provide a sense of meaning and utility.
- 📚 He advocates for a scientific attitude towards life, suggesting that beliefs should be malleable and open to new evidence and better arguments.
- 🧘♂️ Meditation is presented as a skill that can provide immense utility by allowing individuals to observe their emotions, including anxiety, from a place of indifference and without reactivity.
- 💪 The idea that skills have utility and can be developed for personal growth and to serve others is a central theme, with the suggestion that this pursuit can lead to a fulfilling life.
- 🧐 Harris discusses the tension between the need for personal well-being and the impact one has on the world, suggesting that a balance between internal states and external altruism is important.
- 📈 He also talks about the dangers of dogmatism and the necessity of maintaining an open mind to new ideas and perspectives for personal and societal growth.
- 🌱 The concept of mindfulness is introduced as a way to reframe negative emotions and cultivate a more positive and present mindset.
- 📚 Lastly, Harris shares his learning process, which involves a broad and continuous intake of information from various sources without a strict method or optimization.
Q & A
What is the main idea discussed by the speaker regarding the nature of anxiety and excitement?
-The speaker suggests that anxiety and excitement are physiologically similar, with the main difference being the framing or the story one tells oneself about the situation. This implies that changing one's perspective can alter the experience of these emotions.
How does the speaker describe the relationship between our beliefs and our well-being?
-The speaker posits that our beliefs should map onto reality to ensure well-being. Holding beliefs that are out of alignment with reality can lead to suffering, while being open to new evidence and better arguments can help maintain this alignment.
What is the role of conversation in understanding reality according to the speaker?
-The speaker emphasizes that conversation is the primary mechanism for understanding reality. It allows for the possibility of being wrong and for error correction, which is essential for adapting to new information and maintaining a true perspective.
How does the speaker define a good life?
-The speaker defines a good life as one that is open-ended and focused on human flourishing. It involves effortlessly cooperating with others, building a civilization where everyone can thrive, and avoiding the pitfalls of tribalism and partisanship.
What is the importance of skills in personal development according to the speaker?
-The speaker highlights that skills have utility and are essential for personal development. Learning new skills can increase one's ability to serve oneself and others, contributing to a meaningful and impactful life.
How does the speaker view the concept of dogmatism in relation to beliefs?
-The speaker views dogmatism as a hindrance to understanding reality. It involves holding onto beliefs regardless of evidence or argument, which can lead to conflict and a disconnect with the world and others.
What is the speaker's perspective on the potential of human well-being?
-The speaker believes that the potential for human well-being is open-ended and possibly limitless. However, he acknowledges that we currently have a limited understanding of what ultimate flourishing for conscious minds might entail.
What is the role of institutions, laws, and norms in creating a thriving civilization, according to the speaker?
-The speaker suggests that institutions, laws, and norms are necessary to reduce friction in interactions with strangers and to promote a civilization where everyone can thrive, based on cooperation and non-paranoid interactions.
How does the speaker relate the practice of meditation to the concept of a 'state shift'?
-The speaker relates meditation to a 'state shift' by describing it as a practice that allows one to reset independently of external circumstances, enabling a change in one's internal state and fostering intrinsic well-being.
What does the speaker suggest as a method to combat negative emotions or a sense of being lost in life?
-The speaker suggests mindfulness and reframing as methods to combat negative emotions. Mindfulness involves becoming aware of and interrupting negative thought patterns, while reframing involves telling oneself a better, more positive story.
How does the speaker describe the impact of beliefs and ideas on society and the importance of malleability in belief systems?
-The speaker describes the impact of beliefs and ideas as potentially dangerous, especially when they are rigid and dogmatic. He emphasizes the importance of malleability in belief systems, allowing for adaptation and growth in response to new evidence and understanding.
What is the speaker's view on the role of technology and its potential impact on society if we fail to address psychological and social challenges?
-The speaker views technology, particularly increasingly destructive technology, as a potential threat to society if psychological and social challenges are not addressed. He suggests that our current state of partisanship, tribalism, and fear of other groups may become unsustainable in the face of such technological advancements.
What does the speaker mean when he refers to the 'half-life of negative emotions'?
-The speaker refers to the 'half-life of negative emotions' as the duration for which negative emotions persist. He suggests that through mindfulness and meditation, one can reduce this duration, allowing negative emotions to dissipate more quickly.
How does the speaker connect the practice of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) with the practice of meditation?
-The speaker connects BJJ with meditation by highlighting the importance of being relaxed yet effective in both practices. He suggests that BJJ is like 'jiu-jitsu for the mind,' requiring awareness, control, and the ability to respond to challenging situations with calmness and skill.
Outlines
🧠 Cognitive Reframing of Anxiety and Excitement
The speaker discusses the close physiological similarity between anxiety and excitement, highlighting that the difference lies in our perception and the narrative we create around these feelings. They emphasize the importance of recognizing the transient nature of negative emotions and how mindfulness can help us reframe our experience, allowing us to be indifferent to anxiety and other emotions, thus improving our mental well-being.
🌟 The Pursuit of Human Flourishing and Constructive Interaction
The paragraph introduces the guest, Sam Harris, a neuroscientist, philosopher, and best-selling author, who discusses his views on human well-being and the importance of building a society that fosters cooperation and happiness. He stresses the need for psychological and social evolution to avoid conflict and the potential unsustainability of current societal models, especially with the advancement of destructive technologies.
🚀 Defining Personal Purpose and the Impact of Belief Systems
The conversation explores the concept of personal purpose and the idea that individuals might have different aims in life, such as maximizing their potential or using marketable skills for philanthropy. The discussion touches on the malleability of belief systems and the potential for beliefs to be both liberating and constraining, emphasizing the importance of aligning our beliefs with actions that promote well-being for oneself and others.
📚 The Importance of Aligning Beliefs with Reality and Openness to New Ideas
The speaker advocates for a belief system that maps onto reality and the necessity of being open to new evidence and arguments. He criticizes dogmatism and the dangers of holding onto beliefs without evidence, particularly in the context of religion. The paragraph underscores the value of a scientific attitude in all aspects of life and the rejection of partitioning thinking, where some areas are considered too important to be scrutinized rigorously.
🤝 The Role of Conversation in Shaping Reality Understanding and Personal Growth
The paragraph emphasizes the importance of human conversation as a tool for understanding reality and personal growth. It discusses the need for continuous learning, surrounding oneself with smart people, and being open to the ideas of others. The speaker also shares his personal approach to reading and consuming information, which involves a passive yet constant intake from various sources.
💪 Overcoming Emotional States and the Power of Laughter
The speaker shares a personal anecdote about overcoming anger and the role of laughter in shifting emotional states. He discusses the idea that we have control over our emotions and that by consciously choosing to laugh, we can change our emotional state. This story illustrates the power of reframing negative emotions and the importance of being aware of our emotional responses.
🧘♂️ The Martial Arts of the Mind: Meditation as a Skill for Mental Control
The paragraph delves into the comparison between martial arts and meditation, likening the latter to a form of mental jiu-jitsu. It discusses the idea of meditation as a skill that allows us to control our minds and reactions, similar to how martial arts techniques are used for physical control. The speaker reflects on his initial resistance to meditation due to its perceived femininity and how he later embraced it as a powerful tool for mental strength.
🌅 Finding Selflessness in Moments of Connection and the Nature of the Ego
The speaker explores the concept of selflessness and the sense of self, discussing how moments of deep connection with life, such as appreciating a beautiful sunset, can lead to a loss of self-awareness. He contrasts these moments with the constant state of ego and contraction that arises from identifying with thoughts, which often leads to suffering. The paragraph examines the nature of the ego and the importance of recognizing the impermanent and fluid nature of our sense of self.
💭 The Stream of Consciousness and the Illusion of the Unchanging Self
This paragraph delves into the nature of consciousness and the illusion of an unchanging self. It discusses the idea that our sense of self is often tied to a sense of being a passenger in our bodies, observing the world from behind our eyes. The speaker challenges this notion, suggesting that there is no fixed point of consciousness within the brain and that we are, in fact, identical to the ever-changing flow of experience.
🌱 Cultivating Intrinsic Well-Being and the Role of Meditation
The speaker discusses the concept of intrinsic well-being and the role of meditation in achieving it. He differentiates between the experiencing self and the remembering self, emphasizing the importance of living in the moment and finding satisfaction in the present. Meditation is presented as a tool for resetting one's state independent of external circumstances and for developing a superpower of well-being that transcends specific life events.
🛤️ Navigating Life's Meaning and Purpose in the Face of Existential Crisis
The paragraph addresses the issue of finding meaning and purpose in life, especially for those who feel lost or are experiencing a sense of existential crisis. The speaker suggests that the feeling of being lost is often a result of being lost in thought without awareness. He recommends several antidotes, including medication for clinical depression, maintaining healthy habits, and practicing mindfulness and reframing negative thoughts. The speaker also introduces the concept of using gratitude and negative imagination as tools for changing one's perspective and finding meaning.
🌐 Sam Harris's Mission to Engage with Consequential Ideas
In the final paragraph, Sam Harris reflects on his mission to engage with intellectually interesting and consequential ideas, such as artificial intelligence, which have significant implications for the future of humanity. He emphasizes the importance of having honest conversations about these topics and encourages his audience to explore his work, including his podcast, meditation app, and website, to expand their consciousness and discover new capabilities.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Anxiety
💡Excitement
💡Framing
💡Mindfulness Meditation
💡Neuroscience
💡Philosophy
💡Emotional Regulation
💡Ted Talks
💡Non-Duality
💡Purpose
💡Dogmatism
Highlights
Anxiety and excitement share similar physiological responses, differing mainly in the framing and narrative we apply to the experience.
The power of reframing can help us realize that negative emotions have a short half-life and can be managed effectively.
Sam Harris, a neuroscientist, philosopher, and author, discusses the importance of aligning our beliefs with reality for well-being.
Harris emphasizes the need for open conversation and the acceptance of new evidence to challenge and refine our beliefs.
Dogmatism, or holding onto ideas without evidence, is identified as a hindrance to understanding reality and personal growth.
The concept of 'skills having utility' is introduced as a driving force for personal development and effectiveness in life.
Harris shares his personal journey of transforming from an employee to an entrepreneur, highlighting the importance of changing belief systems.
The idea that mindfulness and meditation are skills that can be learned and applied to improve emotional regulation is discussed.
Harris explains how meditation is akin to martial arts for the mind, requiring practice and discipline to master.
The importance of not identifying with thoughts and the benefits of breaking the spell of constant thinking are highlighted.
Harris talks about the difference between the experiencing self and the remembering self, and how they relate to life satisfaction and meaning.
The role of gratitude and reframing negative thoughts through 'negative imagination' as a tool for emotional well-being is mentioned.
Harris discusses the impact of his work, focusing on engaging with intellectually interesting and consequential ideas.
The potential of meditation to reset well-being independent of external circumstances is explored.
The conversation touches on the importance of aligning our intrinsic well-being with the effects we have on the world and vice versa.
Harris shares his approach to learning and consuming information, emphasizing the importance of being open to a wide range of topics.
The discussion concludes with Harris's advice for people feeling lost or lacking a sense of purpose or meaning in life.
Transcripts
if you're feeling anxiety
there's actually a place from which you
can just feel it right and
and be
actually indifferent to it or anything
else you could be feeling i mean first
you can notice that anxiety isn't even
that unpleasant it's so close to
excitement in its actual physiology that
really the difference between excitement
and anxiety is more
or less just the the framing it's just
the story you're telling yourself you
know if you felt these these tingles
and this you know slightly adrenalized
response
right before you know you're about to go
on a roller coaster that's part of why
you're going on the roller coaster you
like that experience right but the fact
that you feel that way when you're about
to have an interview or you're about to
you know walk out on stage that's
intolerable right so just dropping back
and realizing the the power of the
framing it has immense utility because
then you can realize that the
the half-life of negative emotions is
incredibly short
[Music]
hey everybody welcome to impact theory
our goal with this show and company is
to introduce you to the people and ideas
that will help you actually execute on
your dreams all right today's guest is a
neuroscientist philosopher and a
five-time new york times best-selling
author his book the end of faith won the
2005 pen award for non-fiction and spent
an astonishing 33 weeks on the new york
times bestseller list he has a degree in
philosophy from stanford a phd in
neuroscience and he's practiced
meditation for more than 30 years a
combination that gives him a very unique
perspective that has made him one of the
most sought after thinkers on the planet
he's given multiple ted talks with
millions of views and his written works
have been translated into more than 20
different languages additionally he's
written for some of the most prestigious
publications around including the new
york times the los angeles times and the
annals of neurology to name but a few a
clear and rational voice almost without
peer on some of today's most difficult
subjects when he speaks thousands of
people show up in real life and millions
listen online
and his ideas have been discussed by
some of the most visible and
well-respected outlets in the world
including time the new york times
scientific american nature and countless
others he's also the host of the webby
award-winning podcast making sense which
was named by apple as one of the itunes
best
so please help me in welcoming the man
who has spent roughly two years in
aggregated silent contemplation one of
the four horsemen of the non-apocalypse
sam harris
[Applause]
thank you
absolute pleasure to have you
yeah pleasure to be here i am really
excited to dive into some of these
subjects which i think you have
just such a fascinating take on and the
thing that i've drawn the most wisdom
from with you is what and and these are
very much my words
how to live a good life
and that's where i want to start and
it'd be really interesting to hear your
definition of like what kind of life and
way of thinking should we be aiming for
yeah well it's a hard question because
my notion of human well-being is really
open-ended i don't think we understand
what the horizon is
if in fact there is one for kind of
ultimate flourishing of conscious minds
we have a pretty good sense of what we
don't want and are right not to want we
don't want to be terrorized
and uh depressed and
find ourselves constantly in conflict
with strangers finding our aims
frustrated so the generic situation we
want to find ourselves in more and more
is to effortlessly cooperate with
creative and happy strangers right i
mean where there's seven billion of us
we need institutions and laws and norms
uh and ways of thinking that take the
friction out of
pleasurable and non-paranoid interaction
with strangers it's not just about
having you know five or
so close friends who's got who have your
back right i mean you like
clearly
we're all on the same team on some basic
level and if we can't figure out how to
build a civilization where
everyone thrives to some degree
we'll have the world we currently have
until it becomes unsustainable because
we're in a situation now where
i think
it's reasonable to worry that
our default state of partisanship and
tribalism and
rational fear of the incompatible aims
of you know other groups and other
people
is unsustainable in the presence of more
and more destructive technology i just
think i think we have to get our act
together psychologically and socially in
a way that we haven't yet
and when you think about that coming
down to the personal level
do you think about people as having a
north star or a purpose that they should
be pursuing and to contextualize that
i'll say
because i always found myself wanting to
ask people that i ended up answering the
question for myself and so for me the
purpose of my life from my perspective
is to
see how much of my potential i can
actuate so how how many skills can i
acquire that have meaning and utility to
me that allow me to serve not only
myself but others and so that sense of
pushing myself to always get better to
always improve to show up every day
and not think about whether i
get something cross some finish line
generate a certain amount of wealth or
anything like that but just
do i sincerely approach the idea of
bettering myself in a very specific
direction based on what i want to
accomplish in my life or not and if i do
that sincerely then i say that the day
or the life has been a victory and if i
don't do that then to me i'm pointed in
the wrong direction do you have any sort
of guiding light like that that say you
would try to pass on to your children or
that you yourself have for you well i
think that's a good one and i share it
but i can imagine
uh
other versions of having a an aim which
don't really totally overlap with that i
mean you know it would be you know
someone could decide for instance that
they have a talent
that is highly marketable
and what they want to do is make as much
money as possible so that they can give
a lot of it away to help people i mean
money money is is just energy right it
just you know if you are making billions
of dollars and you're giving billions of
dollars away to good causes
well that you know on an effective
altruism metric that's
that's much better than you going to
africa yourself and handing out food you
know in a famine right you want to be
bankrolling thousands of people to do
that right
uh and if you have a skill you know if
you're a great singer or whatever and
and
uh it may be some a skill that you
didn't spend a lot of time to acquire
right so you you don't have this whole
mastery
story that you have and that actually
resonates with me
so that that would be a good life you
know provided you can extract the
psychological satisfaction from it
because most of what we experience in
philanthropy is
when it when it's telescopic in this way
when you're just signing a check you're
not necessarily connected to the good
you're doing and i can imagine
someone doing
immense good in the world by signing
very large checks but not actually
internalizing the gratification of that
on some level we have to be aware of the
possibility of rowing in two boats
simultaneously there's what
the effects
are in the world of how we're living so
you know we want to have a good impact
on others
but we actually want
our
conscious states of psychological
pain and pleasure to be mapped in some
rational way to the kinds of effects
we're having right so you don't want to
be a callous person who's just leaving
devastated and unhappy people in your
wake and taking pleasure in that i mean
that you're you're a psychopath if
that's that's how you're tuned
but you also don't want to be
a person who's
doing a lot of good in the world but not
able to internalize the felt sense of
your connectedness to others because
you're you know you're too neurotic or
you're too distracted or you're just not
you know connecting with others so it's
really interesting and i don't think
i've ever heard anybody else talk about
that notion of making sure that you're
mapping what you're doing to sort of be
outwardly altruistic to actually map to
your own
internal state of well-being if you will
and
hearing the discussions that you've been
around islam and how beliefs and ideas
can be really dangerous
made me ask a question
of how
and basically i'll i'll quickly
summarize so you've got people that they
have a book and the book has ideas and
things that they are meant to believe
and then act in accordance with and
because of where they grew up or you
know what their parents and the society
around them taught them they
internalized those beliefs and if we
could through
communicating our ideas well to them get
them to see
something that caused
more well-being for other people that
that would be a better way to move their
belief system
so one do you believe that a belief
system is malleable in that there's some
element of well you could choose this
set of ideology or you could choose this
and i don't know if you would say that
one of those is is more true than the
other but certainly one may take us
closer to well-being than the other
and if you think that belief systems are
by their very nature malleable things
what would sort of be the belief system
in just like a couple tenants that you
could hand to somebody that you think
would help them maximize their own
well-being as well as serve a greater
good
speaking generically i think
having our beliefs map onto reality to
some degree is obviously good because if
they're not you're just bumping into
hard objects
like if your map is completely wrong
you are bound to suffer right so we have
to be in a situation where
radical ignorance can't be bliss right
so that's that's one principle now there
could be a looseness of fit there could
be situations where
being
strictly right about what's true
may be non-optimal right there may be it
may be useful to have a slightly
delusional
self-serving bias right to think you're
coming off better than you are like it
may give you more enthusiasm for your
life more confidence but
anything that's too
out of register is just delusion right
and other people notice and other people
treat you like somebody who's just not
tracking in a reality
and so
that's one principle so i think we want
our beliefs
to be
true in some basic sense
and
therefore we want to be open to new
evidence and better arguments
perpetually right because if you're if
you close yourself off if you say well
listen i'm done i'm done thinking about
reality
and i know what's true
then again when more data comes in
you know when something's surprising
when one of your intuitions proves to be
faulty
if you can't error correct again you're
just going to fall out of alignment with
what's going on in the world and what
with what other people think is true as
well so the really the only mechanism we
have to do that
is human conversation right we have to
be open to
having other people point out errors in
our thinking and we ha in and in the
conversation we have with ourselves we
have to do likewise we have to be
continually open to the possibility that
we might be wrong and in fact we're very
likely to be wrong a lot of the time
and
so then you know then hence the virtue
of getting educated and surrounding
yourself with smart people and reading
good books and just exposing yourself to
the kinds of lessons that
other people
have learned over you know thousands of
years and are learning in real time
right now and
you can live vicariously through you
don't have to make all the errors that
everyone is made right around you so you
don't have to it's like you can look at
lance armstrong and say okay well it's
probably not a good idea to lie you know
relentlessly about something and then
try to punish the people who caught you
in your lives and then get caught and
have to wind up on oprah apologizing
right i mean that's you know you can you
can internalize that lesson and
understand something about the ethics
and reputational costs of lying
uh
so
given that given the conversation and an
openness to the intrusions of other
people's thinking is
really the the best game in town for
understanding what reality is and how to
navigate within it
then you can see how
non-optimal
and you know ultimately dangerous
dogmatism is now dogmatism is just
holding to an idea no matter what else
comes into view right so there's nothing
you can say to challenge this i'm so you
know i'll talk to you about all this
stuff but over here there's something
that i care about some proposition you
know some assertion that something is
true that i care about so much i'm so
emotionally attached to it that
not only is it non-negotiable
if you continue to push over here i'm
going to get angrier and angrier right
i'm going to i'm going to threaten you
with violence right that is the default
state of organized religion right
historically and let me say that you
know certain religions now have kind of
relaxed their
intolerance to a degree where the the
violence isn't explicit
but
that is the not only is that the default
of faith-based religion
they have a a way of thinking about
dogma i mean dogmatism is a good word in
the context of religion i mean christian
dogma is not is not a derogatory term
they call it dogma for a reason right i
can't certainly cat the catholics do so
the this this notion that you can
believe something strongly without
evidence or certainly without good
evidence without evidence that can
survive pressure from outside so the the
idea that wanting evidence is a
perversion of your circumstance right so
like you know you really if you if you
buy this thing in the bag that you keep
that i haven't shown you
you are that redounds to your credit
right uh it's just it's one it's not
true because the experiential core of
these religions i mean experiences like
unconditional love say
those can be experienced i mean it's not
that everything in our religious
literature is untrue but there's nothing
that has to be believed on insufficient
evidence to be explored and so what i
recommend here is that we really
adopt a scientific attitude
everywhere we don't partition our
thinking about reality where we say well
here's the stuff over here where
super important but we can't think about
it too rigorously right in fact i think
about it too rigorously is to corrupt it
and then over here we've got you know
science and technology and you know
engineers calculating whether a bridge
is going to you know withstand the
weight of the traffic on it and there we
can think rigorously so you know don't
tell me about
rigor with respect to meaning and you
know what what's worth living for and
what's worth dying for and you know what
what is love and compassion and
well-being like that's all that has to
be
just
we have to be hostage to a conversation
that our ancestors were having 2 000
years ago and we have to imagine that
certain of our books were dictated by
the creator of the universe to organize
all that but over here let's get let's
get it all dialed in because we really
care about how our smartphones work
right it makes it makes no sense it's
trying to trying to resolve that tension
is something i've spent a lot of time on
it's it's interesting to me that that
tension exists and it makes me come back
to okay why doesn't that tension exist
in my own life and the organizing
principle that i use
and i think a lot about like what would
somebody pass on to their children now
i've decided not to have kids so i will
never get to answer this but i spent a
lot of time thinking about what are the
organizing principles you've referred to
ideas as sort of the operating system of
the mind
and that seems very apt to me so what
are the organizing principles that i
would give somebody to think in a
certain way and one of the things i'm
obsessed with and i think i explain this
so poorly i don't see it light people's
eyes up and i'd love to figure out how
to say it well which is this skills have
utility now what i mean by that is
learning architecture is interesting
because it allows you to build a
structure that could protect somebody
allows you to build a structure that to
really make it basic
like the one i forget exactly what
country it's in but the seed vault right
like you understand architecture well
enough and how to ventilate things and
all the things that seeds would need to
like live for a very long time so we
could replant if we had to
learning those skills
had a purpose and that purpose allows
for something to happen and so let's
take brazilian jiu jitsu which i know
that you do jiu jitsu
everything that you learn in jiu jitsu
has a real world implication and that
real world implication is one if you got
into a fight you'd probably be more
likely to be able to successfully defend
yourself and that in and of itself is is
so profound as to be worth the time now
there's obviously all kinds of other
benefits as well but
once people understand oh okay these
skills have utility then i need to be
fiendish about increasing my skill set
because it has this real world
application so the problem that i get
into where people are dogmatic about
anything whether it's religion or like i
wrote this belief system okay it was the
25 things that i had to do to my mind in
order to go from
being a good employee which i always
lovingly refer to as sort of a
slave-like mentality i kept my head down
did as little work as possible and
avoided punishment at all costs that's
where i started that's what my parents
taught me to do
and to get out of that and to become an
entrepreneur there were these very
simple write-downable things that i had
to choose to believe and act in
accordance with
and if you came to me and said hey tom
by the way number 14 on your list
doesn't make sense and it doesn't make
sense for this reason i think you
misunderstood something about your own
journey i'd be like that's so rad
because now you're giving me something
that has more utility than the thing
that i've used right thus far
one why do you think that breaks down
what is it that people value more than
that is there some internal thing and
then what process can people use to
become more aware of
what's guiding their decision making
because i think a lot of people i don't
know if it's just at a feeling level
it's like a limbic thing or what
well i think it's a framing problem
because
most of what people care about can be
thought of as a skill i mean well-being
is it's a skill not suffering
unnecessarily is a skill
regulating
noticing your emotional life and
regulating negative emotion is a skill i
saw you know i have a meditation app and
you know meditation is a skill it's a
very useful one and i'm spending a lot
of time teaching
what's now referred to as mindfulness
meditation
and
the moment you begin practicing
mindfulness which is just just learning
to pay close attention
to the nature of your experience you're
not adding anything to your experience
you're just noticing what it's like to
be you moment to moment but in a way
that is
not reactive you're not grasping at
what's pleasant or pushing what's
unpleasant away you're just i mean to
make this concrete and let's say you
have a fear of public speaking right so
you about to go down out on stage and
you feel anxiety
the the usual the default state of
someone who doesn't want to have that
experience it's just trying to figure is
is one to you know in advance worry
about that experience i mean the anxiety
is kindled just by the mere thought of
what you have to do
then
once you feel the butterflies
you
are at war with them right your contract
your mind contracts around it your
conversation with yourself is is an
unhappy one it's like why the am i
this person who just can't like i see
people do this all the time they're
they're relaxed i'm unhappy you know
when am i and you're you're talking to
yourself you're not noticing it because
your the thoughts just come up from
behind you as fast as as as they can and
they seem to be you right you're
identified with each thought that
emerges in consciousness
and most people live their lives as
though there's no alternative
we're not given a rule book for how to
operate a human mind right and there's
no place in a normal education where
we're
where it's even indicated that there's
an alternative here and
so we get we kind of stumble out into
adulthood
more or less assuming that we have we'll
always have the minds we have and that
really there's you know we the only
thing we can do to really upgrade our
firmware is to
just add new content you know we can
read books we can we can
develop interests but
there's nothing
at the sort of root level of our
emotional and cognitive life that can
change and so mindfulness is a way of
kind of dropping a little bit lower and
realizing so in this case
if you're feeling anxiety
there's actually a place from which you
can just feel it right and
and be
actually indifferent to it or anything
else you could be feeling i mean just
just notice that there's even an
unpleasant sensation
i mean first you can notice that anxiety
isn't even that unpleasant it's so close
to excitement in its actual physiology
that really the difference between
excitement and anxiety is more
or less just the the framing it's just
the story you're telling yourself you
know if you felt these these
tingles
and this you know slightly adrenalized
response
right before you know you're about to go
on a roller coaster that's part of why
you're going on the roller coaster you
like that experience right but the fact
that you feel that way when you're about
to have an interview or you're about to
you know walk out on stage that's
intolerable right so just dropping back
and realizing the the power of the
framing is is again this is a skill that
is a fairly esoteric one but now you
know many people are learning it you
know the secrets out
and it has immense utility because then
you can realize that the
the half-life of negative emotions is
incredibly short i mean one you could
you can actually be
psychologically free even in their
presence right your freedom and your
well-being isn't even predicated on
getting rid of the physiology right like
it can still be there but
if you're not
continually thinking about all the
reasons why you should be anxious
the physiology dissipates very very
quickly and that's true for anger it's
true for anything that that is
classically negative
and
so to come back to your question
many of the things that people think
they want out of life
they either think our or many or many of
the the
the ways they're keeping score about how
good their lives are or aren't
they're not seen as these are either
you know this experience is being
delivered to them either based on the
skills they have or the skills they've
never thought to acquire right and
uh yeah so that's uh that's one thing i
would add to the picture of the the
usefulness of skills i want to talk
about the emotional control that you
bring up i think that's super powerful
when my wife and i were first
married my problem was i have a very
slow fuse or a very long fuse and so it
takes a lot to get me angry and that was
actually a big complaint of hers she'd
be really annoyed something would happen
someone cut in front of us in line and i
wouldn't freak out and she wanted me to
freak out and she wanted me to like just
bask in how unjust it was
and
she would really lament that and it just
seemed so strange to me but then when i
got mad i would stay mad and there were
times i would stay mad 8 10 12 hours and
i was working so much at the beginning
of our relationship the only time that
we really had together as husband and
wife would be for part of a saturday
and i would inevitably she would say
something it would upset me i would get
pissed and i would stay pissed the
entire time but then as you said once
you stop reinforcing it which i would do
unfortunately i'd be reinforcing
reinforcing and reinforcing it then
something would happen it would change
my neurochemistry i'd forget like why
was i so mad
every single time i was like
why did i just waste that time being mad
so i end up writing myself this letter
and i gave it to my wife and i said read
that to me the next time i get pissed
off
and in the letter i said hey me it's me
i have no hidden agenda here as to why i
want you to calm down other than the
fact that you know
that if you end up being pissed for
several hours you're going to regret it
every single time and
right now i want you to laugh out loud
and for however long it takes just laugh
out loud you know studies show that you
can't laugh out loud and remain pissed
and so
i gave it to her i got pissed she read
it she only had to read it once it was
so profoundly transformational to see
that just by laughing out loud i
couldn't stay angry that it really
helped me get control of my emotions so
that i knew i can do uh what i'll call a
state shift i don't think i've ever
heard you use that kind of language but
if i'm angry i'm choosing to stay angry
yeah
unfortunately i hadn't found meditation
at that point so i had to sort of brute
force my way to that what can people do
to learn to get control of their
emotions
well the first thing to realize is that
they already have control
virtually anyone watching this i would
expect can do this under certain
circumstances so the one example i would
have you recall is i'm sure this has
happened to almost everyone you're in
some state like that you're you're angry
you've just gotten triggered by
something
but then the phone rings right and the
phone it's you're getting called by
somebody who this is not someone for you
to process your anger with this is like
a business call or you have to function
right
and it actually
perfectly interrupts your state you
actually can just reset and
have the conversation and the physiology
is dissipating very very quickly there
your attention is on something else and
you're just having to function now of
course if somebody if it's a friend or
your mother or somebody who you can
complain to well then you'll jump on and
you'll you'll amplify this state because
you'll have a reason to talk about it
uh so you you can interrupt these states
and simply put your attention on
something else and and then you know and
then it dissipates
one thing that uh i'm really curious to
know you seem just
freakishly educated on a whole lot of
topics what is your process for learning
how do you go about
in taking data how do you start do you
pull threads what thread do you pull
first if you do like how do you really
begin to educate yourself on any given
topic
well i don't really have uh i mean i
take in a lot of information and i
always have so that's you know
and not in necessarily an efficient or
smart way i mean i don't have you know
life hacks that
that
optimize me as a
a consumer of information so you're like
you know
i know there are ways that are
recommended to read a book so as to
extract the the the actionable
information as as quickly as possible
from it
i have never been
uh an adopter of any of those ways so
like you know and i mean we're still
i basically read everything at the same
speed so like i read everything like a
scripture so if it's you know you know
people magazine in a waiting room of a
dentist's office i'm reading that at the
same speed that i'm reading you know a
work of philosophy or neuroscience and
the big change of late i mean you know i
guess this has probably happened
somewhere around 10 years ago is that
once i realized that
there's functionally an infinite amount
of information to consume you know it's
doubling in the sciences every three to
five years and you know there are
literally thousands of good books that i
will wish i had read but i will never
get around to reading
i've become a very
fickle reader
in the sense that i you know i cut my
losses very early the sunk cost fallacy
has completely disappeared for me the
idea that i've you know spent five hours
or five days on this thing so i better
just finish it right that used to be my
orientation with respect to reading
books now i'll i'll discard a book uh
you know just on a whim because i know
there's an infinite amount of stuff i
want to read you know i don't go into
the table of contents and look at the
structure of the book and then go to the
index and then look at the topics and
then i mean i i just start on page one
and start reading and then when i get
bored i stop you know and
uh
so that's uh you know do it do with what
do with that life hack what you will
but
i do
continually i mean i'm either listening
to audio books or podcasts or the news
when i'm
working out or commuting or or
you know i'm just uh
you know constantly taking in
information you know fairly passively
when i'm multitasking
uh so there's not you know i mean the
one thing that that i don't have a lot
of in my life is music because i you
know i can't write to to music certainly
about music with lyrics i can't podcast
music obviously
uh and
i've decided that there's so much that
i'm interested in there's so much that i
want to know
that basically
i just hear music by accident now i mean
i just like if someone else is playing
music or if i walk into a store there's
music associated with the film it's
getting in but
otherwise i'm just you know i'm just a
fire hose of information pointed at my
head most of the time yeah i get that
so
despite the uh that per chance haphazard
way that you're reading it does seem at
least from the outside that you are
striving i would say pretty truly for
excellence
helped me reconcile so
one of the things i struggled with with
meditation was it felt decidedly
feminine
and in a way that as somebody who i felt
i felt that certainly growing up that i
was far more on the feminine end of
being a guy than anything else and so
for me my journey certainly to being an
entrepreneur was one of toughening up um
and so anything that that made me sort
of feel that old school sort of gentle
way
i would push back on and it's why i
didn't meditate for a long time
but i see you you're doing brazilian jiu
jitsu you're somebody who obviously
cares about martial arts and being able
to fight and defend yourself i've heard
you talk very eloquently about
violence and clearly in your
professional life you've
just even just what you've done in the
writing let alone the lecturing you've
already achieved such massive success
refused to believe that there wasn't a
just massive amount of energy behind
that
so how do you think about meditation in
that context is this like going to war
with your mind and you're i'm going to
come out the other side having face
demons uh and having won some sort of
victory that allows me to perform at a
higher level or am i totally missing all
of this and it needs to be a letting go
a more peaceful relaxed
sort of transient experience yeah well
at first it's a very common association
i totally understand it and it's
presented in many ways
where yeah you under that framing you
can just feel the testosterone leaving
your body you know
so
uh yeah that's not my orientation it is
a lot like
jiu-jitsu for the mind and it's and it's
a lot like it i mean what's so beautiful
about jiu jitsu
in particular is that
you can have this massive effect in the
domain of violence
while being relaxed it is what aikido
off you know advertises itself to be but
it's a much more you know at least in my
estimation a much more effective version
of that same
underlying ethic where you can like you
can
control someone
uh
and
use as little violence as as necessary
and basically just use
a superior knowledge of physics and
leverage and position against them so
it's a very
it can be incredibly relaxed and yet
um
given what the circumstance is it can be
a a very high testosterone experience
you know it's not it's a kind of
quintessentially
uh
masculine thing to be doing
but
you can internalize the same sort of
structure
and
that's largely what meditation is
because basically
the default state is one of being
attacked and ambushed all the time
by your thoughts and by your reactivity
and by
uh you are being taken in
by assumptions and and illusions and not
knowing just you just you're in a fog
not you personally but you know one is
and
um
you know even when you learn to meditate
you're in this fog most of the time i
mean and you're cut so the practice
is one of continually breaking the spell
you were constantly on the mat
constantly finding yourself in a
position
of some surprising disadvantage right
like it's like all of a sudden there's a
rear naked choke that's you know three
quarters applied right
and
you need an answer for that and
not knowing the answer is just
synonymous with death right it's like
you're you're just getting you know
you're just you'll be as miserable for
as long as as
circumstances dictate in the absence of
this
and i shudder to interrupt this because
i find it so interesting tying it to bjj
but um i need to know why is it or i
want it said
why is it that the identification with
the eye or the these never-ending
thoughts why do they create
well it's just the ego is
at bottom it is itself a kind of
contraction i mean when you look at what
you your this feeling of self is right
so
let's just talk about what the the sense
of self is
the sense of self for most of us is not
a feeling that we're identical with our
bodies most people don't feel identical
with their physical bodies they feel
like they're passengers inside their
bodies right they like my body's down
here like these are my hands these are
my legs you know i obviously care about
these things you know if you know i i
you know this these were my pains and
pleasures are coming from
but i'm up here in the head
and
i'm a kind of passenger i'm a witness
of this
and if you look i mean most people when
they try to pay attention they try to
find themselves they try to you know
they
they try to meditate
they feel that they're a locust of
attention in the head
behind their face behind their eyes you
know looking out at the world and the
world is not self you know you're you're
over there i'm looking across space at
you i'm here behind my face
and my face is a kind of mask really i
mean it's like i'm not identical to my
face i mean i it's
it's states matter to me like if i have
some weird expression on my face you
know like someone said like well
can we take a picture of you and you
can't figure out how to smile and you
feel uptight like you're reading the
state of your face as
your emotions are playing on your on
your face right
the signature of the emotion you're
feeling has a lot to do with what you
feel in your face
um and it feeds back into your mind if
you force yourself to smile you can you
actually feel a state of happiness
coming in your in your mind
uh
but people feel like they're behind
their face in their head right and so
that
you know kind of homunculus that that
that person in the head
which we know doesn't make any sense
neurologically there's no place in the
brain where there could be a little you
know consciousness that is one thing
that is this stable self that's looking
out through the eyes right
there's a flow of experience and you
know it is
invoking you know many regions of the
brain at all times
and
there is no you you are identical
to this flow of experience this the
stream of consciousness
is what you are as a matter of
subjectivity right i'm not i'm not
saying that it's not a horizon in the
brain or that bodies aren't real or that
there's no physical universe i'm saying
as a matter of experience
there is just this flow of consciousness
and its contents and
yet we seem to put this unchanging
center to it and
that is a
the what what that is you know what the
what is giving us that feeling that
there is an unchanging center to this
flow
is
this sort of this contracted
identification with thought it is a kind
of thought it is just each moment of you
know if i'm saying something
and it doesn't make sense or it sounds
like
the part of it the part the the
experience in you which says oh that's
not right right that
feels like you right i mean you're not
you're not witnessing
it as an object and consciousness just
arise and pass away it sort of has come
up from behind and it just feels like
that's me right and but that thing is
always happening that that's me feeling
is always happening and so
you just feel like you're in your head
behind your face right
well for two reasons there's two sides
of this coin
so much of our of of what we're thinking
is making us miserable right so much of
it is unpleasant so much of it is
causing anxiety we got you look at your
to-do list you got 50 things on it you
just feel like oh my this is the day is
not long enough right this is
you know the state and that's a good you
know that's a you know a high-class
problem to have right i mean you know
there are worse problems
this is the state we're in
and the obverse of that is when we're
really just
connecting with life in a joyful
creative beautiful way like when you
look out the window and it's the most
beautiful sunset ever
and you are just looking at the sunset
right you're not like you're fully
connected with its beauty
those are all moments where you're
losing this sense of of self but the
difference between meditation and those
moments is that
you're not really aware of losing the
sense of self in those moments you're
not really aware of what is
freeing about those moments and you
can't do it
in other circumstances like you can't
like you know i need the i need the
beautiful sunset just looking at your
shoe isn't it good enough for me right
but with meditation i can actually look
at your shoe in the same way that i look
at the sunset right so that's the like
what's what's happening for people
most people is that they're waiting for
the world to give them a good enough
reason to just be present and to be
present so fully that they lose their
sense of of self right that they're no
longer behind their face
you know
just waiting for something good to
happen right or figuring out how to
change the experience enough
so that
again they can stop they're no longer at
war i mean we're
to a greater or lesser degree
we're always
at war i mean we're always fighting
something you know there's always this
like you know you're always noticing
something wrong you're feeling
uncomfortable in your body you're
reacting to something that somebody did
or you thought they did you're
navigating a social encounter that seems
off-kilter you know it's awkward and
like you're trying to figure out what to
say and that that sounded stupid and
like you're you're you're just being
blown around
and
the moments where you really feel good
are moments where you can you are there
there isn't a a coming to rest right
where it's not about the past or future
you know it's not even about it's not
about half a second ago it's not about
half a second from now and
the ultimate version of that is
to ju
entails the dropping of this this
sense of self
is everything you do about flourishing
for you unfortunately not i mean
you know i mean wisdom
would be
really being able to track what is going
to matter you know at the end of the day
or at the end of a life for me
flourishing
is a matter of
spending your time
pleasantly
and happily and creatively
and having fun
but in all the ways which
it at every moment when someone asks you
well you know that last hour that last
day that last week that last year
do you feel good about that was that a
good use of your time
that remembering self that retrospective
gesture
that's where people worry about things
like meaning right i mean that's like so
it's like there's two i mean to use you
know danny kahneman's
framing here there's the experiencing
self and there's the remembering self
and the the remembering self is the self
that you're talking to when you say you
know are you satisfied with your life
whether you're asking yourself or
someone's asking you
and
the answers that are available
in the in those moments
really determine whether or not somebody
has a kind of global life satisfaction
whether they have meaning and those are
that's the those are the moments where
people feel like you know i need
religion i need to know i you know i
need to know how the the far future is
going to be i need like i need some
story
to tell myself that is fundamentally
consoling but the experiencing self the
ex the self that is just going moment to
moment
feeling pains and pleasure and
uh just dealing with dealing with this
the very short you know time horizon
uh
i think that is
that's fundamentally our real self i
mean the remembering self is the
is a version of that you know if you ask
me are you satisfied with your life and
i you know spend the next 30 seconds
telling you about that that is yet
another you know brief chapter in my
experiencing self right and
most of life
is it is
a story is is you know is getting
getting summed over this this
this lifeline of the experience itself
and
their
questions of meaning
and a kind of global story to tell
yourself about what this is all about
are are far less important than people
think i mean i think you want to be
playing both games intelligently you
don't want
to be absorbed in in pleasures which
every time you think about your life
have you feeling
god i'm just wasting my life i'm just
you know i'm a superficial guy you know
i've you know i got wealthy and now i
just you know do heroin and play golf
right and it's just fun you know like
whenever you check in with me i feel
pretty good because i have you know an
unlimited supply of heroin and golf
uh but
it's
you know i can't really you know i'm
sort of embarrassed by it every time i
have to talk about it right that like
that's not the you know you you do want
so over here you still do want
you want your pleasures
to be justified
by good relationships and and a world
that
cares about your inputs and outputs
right so you're like you want
you know you want what you're paying
attention to all day long to matter to
someone else and we're so deeply social
it's not wrong to want those things
but again
it's possible to have a
purchase on well-being that is deeper
than any one of those things so that
when you lose one of those things right
when you find out that the the thing you
thought
people would love they actually hated
right you know the television show you
wrote or the novel you wrote or whatever
you invested all this time you had a
hope for this thing but your hopes were
disappointed how long do you suffer over
that right
in the absence of
and
this sort of superpower that where you
can actually find an intrinsic
well-being to consciousness
it will be for as long as you know your
you know bad genes and bad life
experiences dictate right it's like it's
just you're at the mercy of who you were
yesterday and so met you know as a skill
meditation is fairly unique in that
you can actually reset independent of
what's going on but again it's not a
reason to become
uh
totally immune
to your integra you know the effects
you're having on the world and what the
world is telling you because ultimately
you are going to spend most of your time
asleep and dreaming you know this in
this
state with you know
in conversation with yourself and in
conversation with others no matter how
much you meditate i mean i you know i
think ultimately there are people who
get
you know quote fully enlightened and
completely break the spell of being
identified with with thoughts
um you know i'm not one of those people
or certainly not yet and uh so
i experienced this fluctuation
but the the
the fluctuation
is so important for
my well-being that i imagine that i can
talk about it without you know
hesitation
what do you say to people who the deep
fundamental problem in their life is
that they're lost they have no sense of
meaning or purpose they don't know what
direction to go into they're sliding
towards depression because
it all seems so pointless um that that's
something that i encounter with people a
lot um people will stop me randomly and
just be like help
and
i'd love to know
knowing that you have a very limited
window of time with that person
you know what would you say in like 60
or 90 seconds that would hopefully send
them on a path that would actually be
useful
well i would just point out the
mechanics of it which is what is
actually going on is that they're lost
in thought they're they're thinking
without knowing that they're thinking
basically every moment of their waking
life right and the and the character of
that story in this case is depressing or
or
uh you know
certainly productive of unhappiness
now
there are two
there's three at least three possible
antidotes to that and
they should try all of them right so
like if we're talking about a clinical
depression it's it's useful to say that
there's a physiology to this that you
know can be
driven from below in a way that's not
narrowly responsive to their thinking
right so it's it'll tend to produce
depressive thoughts and the depressive
thoughts will tend to feed back on the
state but
you know i don't think all
forms of depression are just a matter of
what a person's thinking it can be
really it's it's best viewed as a kind
of disease you know of physiology and
so you know i'm not against
antidepressants at all i know many
people who've you know received a lot of
help from them and i hope we get better
ones in the future and and pharmacology
is definitely a piece of the of the
solution for for many people
and everything else that is good to do
that people sort of lose their
commitment
to doing at the worst possible time
should be done i mean you have to sort
of get behind yourself and push
to exercise and to socialize and to do
things that you know you you may not
want to do because those are good for
you and help
you know break and can break you out of
it but the normal
range of psychological suffering
you know not clinical depression but
just feeling like you know life sucks
and you're a failure and there's nothing
you know it's like
you're just it's you're stuck
that is a story of
telling yourself a story you're thinking
and you can
either become more and more mindful of
that and interrupt that more and more
and or and it should be and
you can
reframe
this continually and tell yourself a
better story right you can actually just
engineer
you know you can you can change the code
that you're that you're
you know
uh running moment to moment
and
i mean just you know a very simple one
which i you know i use and i actually
recently recorded this
in a lesson on the app you know just
gratitude just thinking this is actually
you know this particular maneuver is
i believe comes from stoic philosophy i
didn't actually get it from stoic
philosophy but this this sort of
use of negative imagination where you
think of
all of the bad things that haven't
happened to you right so if you're just
you know if you're stuck in traffic
driving to the job that you don't like
and
you're you're frustrated
you can think of all the things that
could happen to you right that haven't
and if any one of them happened to you
you would consider your prayers answered
if you could just be returned to this
moment right like you haven't been
diagnosed with cancer right you've got
two young kids say
you know you want to live to see them
grow up and you could be the guy who
today is going to find out you've got
two months to live right and you have to
then the next two months is spent
just
unwinding your worldly affairs right
you're not that guy right that hasn't
happened to you yet
that's just more thinking
but it can have a profound effect you
can you can reframe your experience in a
way that doesn't actually change
anything material about your
circumstance
and it can let the light in and there
are many techniques like that that are
just a matter of invoking useful
concepts skillfully
tell these guys where they can find you
online the making sense podcast is
something i spend a lot of time doing
my meditation app is at wakingup.com
it's called waking up
and
otherwise i'm just my website sam
harris.org i'm on twitter it's also sam
harris org there's no dot
but
you just put in sam harris and you'll
get an eyeful
yes very true
what's the impact that you want to have
on the world
well you know i
what i'm spending my time doing is
trying to engage
honestly with
interesting and consequential ideas i
mean so the net the the the venn diagram
i i have you know i don't think about it
a lot but when i
think about you know retrospectively
what i have been spending a lot of time
doing
i i seem to keep finding the
intersection
of intellectually interesting ideas they
have to have some con connection to
science or philosophy or it just
has to be the kind of thing that someone
would may want to think about anyway
because they're just cool ideas so
something like artificial intelligence
right
very interesting to think about
but it's also
hugely consequential you know
increasingly so and if we get it wrong
it will
you know redown to our misery right if
not extinction right so like that is
that's
the the center of the bull's-eye for me
something that's interesting
something that's consequential something
that that getting it the difference
between getting it right and wrong is
enormous right and that's so so those
are that's sort of the landscape where
i'm trying to continually focus my
conversations i love that
all right guys truly there are a few
people on this planet that have
influenced my thinking more than this
man i hope that you will dive in his
world and let it expand your own
consciousness and and discover new
things that you're capable of
if you haven't already be sure to
subscribe and until next time my friends
be legendary take care
sam jesus dude how many times have you
robbed the bank
i have the bank the way uh
you mean as in went into a one and stole
the cash four times wow and stole money
virtually dozens of times
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