I asked Steely Dan's engineer what makes a recording sound good
Summary
TLDRThe video features an interview with Bill Schnee, a highly accomplished recording engineer and producer who has worked with numerous renowned artists. It explores his initial discovery of his passion for audio production, his unique creative process in the studio, his philosophy of serving the music, and his emphasis on establishing an emotional connection in the recordings. The discussion also covers evolving music technologies over Bill's long career, the current state of the industry, and how he still finds exciting new talent to work with, like his favorite modern artist Bruno Mars carrying on the old school R&B tradition that Bill loves.
Takeaways
- 😊 Bill fell in love with producing when he heard how a studio's sound system emotionally affected him
- 🎹 Bill sees himself as serving the artists and their music when producing
- 🌟 Bill approaches each song like a painter - adding only what's needed
- 🎤 Capturing vocals and lyrics that spark imagination and visuals is key
- 👂 Bill still mixes by feel, guided by the right brain
- 💻 New technology like automation forced Bill to change his process
- 🥁 Drums have unique human feels based on how drummers' brains work
- 🤖 Drum machines don't have the human feel that Bill loves
- 😕 Too much technical info makes production about technology, not music
- 🙂 Bruno Mars' old school R&B excites Bill today
Q & A
How did Bill first get interested in music production?
-Bill first fell in love with music production when he heard the emotional impact that a studio's sound system could have on a playback. He was struck by how the sound could enhance the feeling of the music.
What is Bill's approach to serving the artists he works with?
-Bill sees his roles as engineer and producer as servant roles - he is there to serve the artist and their music. He gives his opinions but tries to shape the sound to deliver what the song and artist intend emotionally.
Why does Bill think imagery is important in music?
-Bill believes imagery in lyrics and production helps create a visual aspect and world that draws in the listener. This imagery and world building enhances the feeling and impact of the music.
What is Bill's mixing process like?
-Bill likes to mix as a performance from start to finish, guided by feel and his right brain instincts. He marks mixer levels statically then tweaks dynamically as the song plays to enhance the emotion.
How did the advent of 8-track recording change studios?
-8-track recording enabled more isolation for better control in mixing, but led studios to become very dead-sounding by eliminating sound bleeding between mics. The goal became perfect separation.
Why was working with multiple drummers challenging when recording Steely Dan's Gaucho?
-Using different drummers gave different feels, forcing Bill to get distinct drum sounds for each one. This showed the importance of drummer feel, lost with rigid drum machines.
Why does spill and isolation matter more now than in older productions?
-Pop recordings today often use very close miking versus an overall sound. This means spill and isolation matter more than when aiming for a overall natural room sound.
How can today's abundance of tech information overwhelm new engineers?
-With endless videos and guides on technical details, new engineers can get overwhelmed with tech minutiae versus focusing on musicality and expression.
What does Bill see as the main drawback of reduced labels today?
-Fewer labels provide less mentorship for developing artists over time. Most artists need support improving over multiple albums as they hone their voice.
What kind of music still excites Bill today?
-Bill loves Bruno Mars' music because it embodies the old-school R&B sound that is Bill's favorite genre. He blends vintage sounds with modern production.
Outlines
😊 Bill's journey into music production
This paragraph describes how Bill first got into music production. He joined a high school band where he met guitarist Richie Podler who had his own studio. When Bill heard his band's song played back in Richie's funky studio, he had an 'aha moment' realizing the impact of sound quality. This set the course for his career.
😃 Using imagination and visuals in music
This paragraph discusses Bill's love of Beach Boys music and the importance of imagination and visual imagery in songwriting and production. Bill tries to elicit an emotional response and connection in the music he produces. He sees his role as serving the artist and their creative vision.
🎹 Bill's approach to recording and production
This paragraph outlines Bill's hands-on approach to recording and mixing. He balances elements by feel to deliver the song's intent emotionally. He adopted new technologies like automation while still retaining his artistic sensibilities. The goal is a great-sounding final product, not reality.
🥁 The importance of drums
This paragraph examines why drums are so crucial in recording. Bill loves their human feel. With Asia, having different drummers gave unique feels. For Gaucho, Steely Dan used a drum machine for perfection but lost human elements. Bill captures what sounds/feels best, not what's most real.
💻 Perspective on changes in music technology
This paragraph presents Bill's thoughts on changes in music technology. He's unsure what the future holds. There's lots of information today which can confuse rather than help artists focus on the music. Record labels once nurtured artists; now artists must develop alone.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡producer
💡engineer
💡sound
💡mixing
💡drums
💡music technology
💡imagerylyrics
💡record labels
💡musical balance
💡serving the song
Highlights
Had an 'aha moment' seeing the emotional impact of a recording studio's sound quality
Views recording engineering and producing as 'servant roles' to serve the artist and their music
Tries to approach each song like a painter - add only what's necessary to bring out the essence
Imagery and visual aspects in lyrics contribute greatly to the impact and artistry of the music
Used to mix tracks live in real-time like a 'performance', later adopted moving fader automation
8-track recording marked a shift - leakage between mics became undesirable, dead studios constructed
Drums carry emotional 'feel', drum machines don't compare to human playing
Steely Dan tried recording drum tracks with multiple drummers, searching for 'perfect' drums
Too much technical info for young musicians today - need more guidance to focus on the music
Record labels used to mentor artists, allow them to develop over multiple albums - lacking today
Excited by artists like Bruno Mars carrying on old school R&B traditions into the modern age
Always interesting to see where music technology and industry changes lead creatively
Can still relate to new music today at his age, so can keep actively working and contributing
Undoubtedly great musical gifts and creativity still exist today as they always have
Shift to leasing music vs selling records fundamentally changed industry dynamics and artist development
Transcripts
he certainly can't poo poo what Donald
and Walter came up with but some of the
stuff I mean I have to raise an eyebrow
on that one this is Bill schneid he's
known as the engineers engineer he's won
multiple Grammy and Emmy Awards and has
over 125 gold and platinum records to
his name
throughout the 70s and 80s and still to
this day bill is the guy responsible for
giving so many great records the sound
they needed I got in touch with Bill
because I made a video about the
creative process behind Asia he was the
engineer on that album Bill's approach
to creating music is truly unique not
only does he have a great technical
knowledge but he also has a deep
understanding of music as an art form
I spoke with Bill to try and learn more
about his process and to get his
thoughts on music and the future of
production
if you've read Bill's book then you'll
know that as well as all this knowledge
and wisdom he has some great stories to
tell so stick around to the end because
there's so much to learn from Bill
I started by asking him how he first
fell in love with producing music
I my parents moved from San Francisco to
Los Angeles from when I was 16 for my
senior year of high school and in the
new school I met some guys that were
starting a band and I joined in with
them and we wrote some songs played
around as high school bands will do and
and wrote some songs and we got them to
a guy at uh that had just made a
production deal with Deca records his
name was Gary Usher Gary was an
interesting guy he uh was friends with
the beach boy family the Wilson family
and he actually wanted to be a beach boy
and uh and they didn't take him but he
did write two songs two of their big
hits in my room and 409 with Brian
so he had this production deal and he
thought we had we sent him four or five
songs and he thought one of them was a
hit for sure and he signed us up and we
recorded at Capitol and Western
two of the best Studios at the time and
still to this day
um
well in those days you know they put out
a single or two and if you had a hit you
ran in and recorded
six songs whatever it took to fill out
an album and we didn't have a hit so
there was no La teens album but
um
in in the process our first night he had
brought in Gary had brought in this very
talented guitar player to augment the
band a guy named Richie podler and it
turns out that Richie Potter was also an
in addition to being an incredible
guitar player he was also an incredible
engineer and ultimately producer and he
had built his own studio so when we got
dropped I went over to his place and
told him the sad story and he said oh
you guys were good I can get you a
record deal go see this guy Mike Curb
he's going to go places so we went to
see my curve and he signed us up and we
went into Richie's studio to record a
song and
uh here his Studio was a lot funkier
than those really nice professional
Studios and I didn't know anything about
what made a good Studio but when I came
in we we cut our first track and when I
came in for the playback the sound that
came out of the speakers did something
to me emotionally that the other
playbacks and the other great Studios
hadn't done and I realized right then
what a difference the sound could make
so much so that I turned to him right
there and said can you teach me what all
this stuff does and he said no no I'm
teaching Bill Cooper here you go out and
do another take
you know let's get back to the music but
that was that as you put it aha moment
where I it set the course of my life
this is the start of understanding what
makes bills so great as a producer he
sees music as an art form and tries to
develop this emotional connection to it
but how does he do this considering he's
often working for other artists
I've always felt that both recording
engineering and producing our servants
roles I'm there to serve the artist and
their music
so uh you know I'm now since I'm there
and being paid you know for for my
opinions on either one or both of those
jobs uh obviously I'm going to give them
but it's it's absolutely to serve them
and uh you know it's I I think that when
I whenever I start a song approach a
song
um I'm I'm trying you know usually the
artist depends on the artist some
artists will have a definite feeling
about what they want how they want it
they don't know how to get it others
haven't got a clue so I I always
especially as a producer I always looked
at it like a good painter a good painter
will come along in a house if somebody
buys a used an old house and they come
in and he looks and hear this wall well
it doesn't need it it's been painted
recently it doesn't need anything it
goes in the Next Room and oh there's
some this could use a code of paid so
he'll prime it and it goes into the next
room and there's like holes in the wall
so now he has to fill the holes and then
do the priming and the painting well
sort of like that you do whatever is
necessary if you know and that's the
creative decision on my part a right
brain decision obviously but if
something that that is very important is
to I think is leave well enough alone
you know is to know when something is
good you don't need to recreate the
wheel one of the best ways of
establishing this connection is trying
to find something that uses your
imagination
something bill and I have in common is
our love of the Beach Boys I love their
music because it takes me away to
another world I asked Bill about the
importance of imagery in music and how
he uses his imagination uh first of all
I'm right with you uh in fact in the
beginning I was much more of a Beach
Boys fan than a Beatles fan
that that eventually turned around me
sadly because the Beach Boys didn't stay
at the Beach Boys when Brian kind of
lost the
number
um unfortunately but
um yeah and it you know and he obviously
was just absolutely brilliant and
especially especially with vocals uh you
know he had he was a big fan of a lot of
those four-part Harmony groups that were
right before his time and he managed to
incorporate those into a much obviously
a very contemporary setting in terms of
uh both both musically and especially
lyrically
um
and and and his songs and the way he
performed them were uh extremely visual
um and I think there is an aspect of
that that some of the you know that that
gets into the the songwriting starts
with the songwriting of course and then
goes on to what the production how the
production fleshes it out but the uh so
much of imagery comes from lyrics
whether it's a love song uh you know or
an angst song or whatever you're trying
to communicate
um so I'm with you on that for sure the
the visual aspect of what it can be and
what it and that's when it's really the
best I think so this gives us a bit of
an idea about Bill's creative process
but what does this role actually look
like in the studio and what's he doing
behind the desk to try and work towards
this finished product
when I started
um uh my my first session when I had the
aha moment and Richie wouldn't teach me
I went off to another studio and it was
kind of a not a very well done studio uh
and it was only stereo so that meant
that every session
um was mixed live that was the that was
the finished product which uh was a
great thing for me to to learn on
because that to me is still the one the
most important thing to me is balancing
the elements to to get that to deliver
what the song is trying to say hopefully
on an emotional level
so
um when I started and got into then
let's starting with 8tracks 16 24 48
before there was any computer help for
mixing I mixed you know I like to mix uh
as you say uh for a performance which
mean I started at the beginning and went
straight through the song being Guided
by the right brain I had it I would mark
this I had paper little tapes on the
individual faders that I had a mark
where I got the static balance that I
felt was good but after that it was up
to me as to what was going to happen and
some things worked some things might not
then the next one I'll do the ones that
worked and try something in the spots
that didn't work that kind of thing
uh when we finally got
um
uh for me it was probably around 1980
when we got computers to help us that
would be moving fader automation that
consoles would have faders that were
connected to a computer that had Motors
in them so that you moved the fader and
it registered in the computer and then
when you play back the tape the next
time it moved the faders when I finally
had got those and installed that in my
studio
um it took me a while to learn to let
the computer help me because it was
messing with me it was taking away from
my my ability to to do the performance
uh so that wasn't a big adjustment which
I was forced to make because we got into
so many tracks that you couldn't really
do it you know we got to 48 tracks that
that's just a little too much to handle
uh moving moving on the fly as the song
goes down
one of Bill's foundational principles is
the understanding that it's necessary to
keep up with changing technology
perhaps this is why his career has
lasted so long and why he still loves
producing music
but often new technology and artists
don't work in Perfect Harmony especially
when the technology can become
overpowering
eight track to me is the word the
beginning of recording studios change
because the sound of recording studios
is being built because up to that point
Studios were built for the ensemble in
the room to sound good and the balance
was done you know in great part by
moving the instruments as well as the
microphones to get them in the right uh
placed for a good sound and when they
went to when we went to eight uh eight
track it was the bill of goods was uh
well we can put things on a separate
track and the great news about that is
now when we come back we can come back
and uh you know first of all we can do
overdubs a lot more easily and now when
we mix it we we can actually do a mix
down and we can even change the
arrangement somewhat so my analog my uh
uh example I always give us a producer
gets hooked into the eight track puts
the drums on a track the piano on a
track and so on and then he comes to the
mix and he engineer says what do you
think of the mix it sounds good but what
would it be like without drums in the
intro and he turns the drums off and lo
and behold he says but I still hear the
symbols and the engineer goes yeah boom
that's the spill into the piano so we
can't take the drums out of the intro no
but I'll I'll fix that next time and
that was the beginning of you know
blanketing the piano and ultimately from
there leakage became a bad words the the
sound of one instrument getting in
another instrument's microphone you had
to have control so that's where the
construction of Studios that were dead
uh began and that's what I grew up in by
and large 1980 was an interesting year
for music technology especially from
Bill's perspective because after Asia
Steely Dan started using a drum machine
for that album Gaucho for Bill drums are
one of the most important parts of the
recording process so I asked how this
worked when recording Asia yeah well the
interesting thing about
Asia was when Gary Katz the producer
called and asked if I wanted to do the
next Steely Dan album and I said
absolutely he said it's going to be a
revolving door of drummers they want to
try all kinds of guys out on it and uh
so you'll be getting a new drum sound
every few days and I said okay that's no
problem and uh I don't think they ever
tried the same song with more than one
drummer I think that you know they they
had certain whether they actually knew
what they were if they had pre-planned
that I don't know but but you know we
did Black Cow once and we never did it
again with someone else
so
um and they and obviously I mean to to
my one of my favorite things about
drummers is how they feel I'm a wannabe
drummer I'm a keyboard player at heart
but I'm a I'm a wannabe drummer and I
love who drums and and all that and I
love the way they feel and that's I said
in my book uh you know that's how the
brain directs the four appendages that
are going on in a drummer uh to to play
and some people their brains have them
like a clock and some and and they they
learn to do this they can learn to do
this uh they're they're perhaps their
left hand on the snare is just a little
bit late to the bass drum the bass drum
beats and the hi-hat might just be kind
of just a little bit in between both of
those that kind of thing and that's what
makes the feel of a drummer
um and as you point out you know drum
machines don't really they've worked
really hard and they've gotten a lot
better people making them and and
program even why not to to to give them
a sense of feel but uh it's it's not the
same as a human being that's for sure by
the time Goucher came around Donald and
water were then using the drum machine
Wendell to try and get that perfect
sound
it gave them exactly what they wanted
but it also took away some of the human
elements of playing
so they got obviously definitely
different feels on Asia with the
different drummers
then they go to when they went to the
next album
um Gaucho they they were they were
searching for the best the perfect drums
whatever that means
and I'll never forget by one of my great
friends uh Jeff Porcaro fabulous
unbelievable drummer that he was
came back from a week in New York to Los
Angeles and hop hopped in the studio one
day and I said how did it go with Donald
and Walter and he said it was grueling
he said they had me three days I played
the same song for three days with three
different Rhythm sections
and their theory was that I would play
differently with different Rhythm
sections and all they were trying was to
get my drum track and then they would go
back in and record all the instruments
to that drum track
and uh
what can I say uh you know everybody's
creativity works and the way the way it
works and you certainly can't
you certainly can't poo poo what Donald
and Walter came up with but some of the
stuff I mean I have to raise an eyebrow
on that one so why is it drums so
important both for Bill and for Donald
and Walter in this case what is it
exactly that they're searching for
well I mean if if you stand 10-15 feet
in front of a drum set it's pretty loud
and rashy still you know and yet and yet
if you mic'd it out there and tried to
make a pop record it it's too distance
you know for the most part so then it
becomes mics on drums and uh and I I
figured out early on with regard to
all kinds of things the piano is the
same thing you know what does the piano
sound right is it you know out in the
audience of a 10 you know a 10-foot
Grand or eight foot grand out in the
audience on a concert or a what about on
a pop thing you know maybe a a couple of
feet out same thing but yet everyone's
putting mics in the piano and I so I
realized early on that it's not about
reality it's about it's not about
reality it's about whatever comes out of
speakers that's going to be euphoric
that's going to feel good and sound good
and that kind of thing is this kind of
philosophy that bill has which has kept
so much of the Artistry and Humanity in
the music that he's worked on
but technology has changed so much over
the past few decades so I wanted to get
his thoughts on these changes and also
how he saw things changing going forward
well it's an often asked question and
the often provided answer is I don't
know who knows you know
I mean
you know in turn the as I touched on
earlier
um the uh the fact that we don't have as
much of the record companies helping
artists along is not necessarily a
positive thing
there's no lack of creativity I mean you
know I believe God gives gifts to people
and the people that He blesses with
their musical gift I don't think he's
you know
hasn't given up or stopped or anything
like that it's just how did we go about
getting it developed the best way
possible and which brings up another
thing that uh is that from an
engineering standpoint one of the
problems right now for me is that there
is so much let me rephrase that there's
too much information out there and it's
become too technical
um by that I mean you can go on YouTube
and there are hundreds maybe thousands
of how to's by different people or their
subscription Services even more with
Masters that will show you how they do
this and they do that and uh and that's
all well and good but
um you know it some of it is very
contradicting and kind of confusing I
would think and the other thing about
that is that they've got it's gotten
into such a because there is so much
technology inside
of a Daw
that one of my kind of gripes is that
the the kids are being
concentrating you're forced to
concentrate on that alluding to
something you said much earlier so
concentrating on that instead of the
name of the game which is the the
musical balance the music itself if
you're spending all your time thinking
of all these things you know within the
framework of different aspects of Pro
Tools when are you going to have time to
think about the music so maybe this is
what's really important for young
musicians trying to give them that aha
moment that Bill had when he was younger
and this is what I hopefully try and do
with this channel which is to help
people fall in love with music
undoubtedly they listen to music whether
it's older music or current music
whatever and they get a form of that aha
moment where you know wow I wonder how
they do that and then the shift into
getting into it and that's when all of
this technology can get in the way very
very easily and I'm not exactly sure how
to prevent that for young people but
with this in mind I asked Bill what he
thought of the current state of the
music industry and record labels as well
you know this the saddest part about the
business being gone from what from once
it once was back then a business that
had a product to sell and now it makes a
product that they lease is that of
course the Everything Has Changed with
regard to to the uh help that a record
company can give an artist the good news
is anybody and everybody can start
making records at a very early age the
bad news is is that all artists need
time to develop and and as I'm familiar
as familiar as K2 or I'm this familiar
as anyone with the ills of the record
business but they provided a lot of
positives and mentoring and
helping artists along giving them for
instance a producer like we like the LA
teens had a producer to help you and and
guide you because you don't really when
you're starting out you don't know that
much about what you're doing and so back
in the day you found that if an if a
record company believed in an artist
they would do a second record or even a
third record with them they stuck with
them uh uh uh a band that I produced in
the 70s Pablo Cruise it was uh they had
done two
two albums when I did the third that
didn't do that well or not you would not
say they were hit albums but the record
company believed in them and then they
they changed producers to myself but
mostly the fact that they uh I won't
take all the credit they they sent me a
song that I knew was a hit what you're
gonna do and uh but it just shows that
there was three uh that you know that
was three times today they are record
companies are signing many many fewer
artists a small fraction and finally
what excites Bill about music today
uh what excites me in music today Bruno
Mars
um
uh yeah I'm a huge Bruno fan you know
and why not because you know old school
r b is probably my favorite genre I like
all music I've been very very fortunate
to have success in all areas of music
all genres of music but old school r b
is probably my favorite and that's
clearly what you know he is the modern
version of that and uh smooth Sonic is
that what it is that that one album is
nothing but that but uh but yeah
um the there's no question that there's
um you know I go looking for uh for
things to excite me and they are there
they're definitely there uh a little
fewer and far between than maybe 30
years ago but but it's there and
undoubtedly uh as as things change and
they will they have and they will
continue to change it's it's it it it it
always has
um it'll be very interesting and fun to
see where where everything is going uh I
certainly I I can still relate to
everything so that I can still keep
working in other words if if I couldn't
relate to it it'd be very hard for me to
you know to know how to integrate how to
offer my services thank you so much to
bill for giving up his time and speaking
with me and for being so kind and
answering so many questions this video
isn't sponsored or paid for by Bill but
he does have a book out so if you
enjoyed these stories and you'd like to
learn more about his life and his
process I highly encourage you to check
out his book I'll put a link in the
description
[Music]
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