Indonesian FM on occupied Palestine and Indonesia democracy path | Talk to Al Jazeera

Summary

In an interview with Al Jazeera, Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi discusses the nation's strong stance on Palestinian rights amidst the escalating Gaza conflict. Marsudi emphasizes Indonesia's commitment to international law and condemns double standards by Western countries. She highlights Indonesia's diplomatic efforts, including active participation in the International Court of Justice and dialogue with global leaders. Marsudi also addresses Indonesia's constitutional mandate for self-determination and defends its foreign policy principles, including economic diplomacy and the protection of Indonesian nationals abroad.

Takeaways

• 🌍 The world is focusing on the International Court of Justice (ICJ) due to the escalating conflict in Gaza.
• 🇮🇩 Indonesia is advocating for Palestinian rights and opposing Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories.
• 🗣️ Indonesia's constitution mandates support for the right to self-determination, influencing its stance on Palestine.
• 🛑 Indonesia emphasizes the need for consistent implementation of international law without double standards.
• 🇺🇸 Discussions with the US highlighted the importance of ceasefire and the two-state solution.
• 🕌 Indonesia, as a prominent Muslim-majority country, feels a responsibility to advocate for Palestinian rights.
• 🕊️ The ICJ case is seen as a vital step in addressing long-standing issues between Israel and Palestine.
• ⚖️ Indonesia rejects normalization with Israel without a two-state solution and continues to support Palestine.
• 💼 Indonesia's accession to the OECD is a significant step, despite challenges posed by Israel.
• 🔄 Indonesia's foreign policy has shifted towards economic diplomacy and protecting its nationals abroad.

Q & A

Why is the case at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) regarding the occupation of Palestinian territories important to Indonesia?

Indonesia has a long-standing commitment to supporting Palestinian rights, as mandated by its constitution. The Indonesian government believes it is their duty to advocate for justice and humanity, particularly in response to the atrocities committed against Palestinians over the past 70 years.

What is the Indonesian foreign minister's stance on the implementation of international law?

The Indonesian foreign minister emphasizes the importance of implementing international law consistently and without double standards. She criticizes the selective application of international law, particularly by Western countries, and calls for a uniform approach.

How does the Indonesian foreign minister view the role of the United States in the Palestinian conflict?

The Indonesian foreign minister acknowledges the United States' role but expresses concern over its vetoes in the UN Security Council and the perceived double standards in its approach. She urges the U.S. to maintain its position on issues like displacement and the two-state solution.

What is Indonesia's position on normalization with Israel in relation to OECD accession?

Indonesia's position is clear: the country will not normalize relations with Israel without the establishment of a two-state solution. The accession to the OECD is not conditional on normalization with Israel, and Indonesia remains firm in its stance.

How does Indonesia approach the concept of self-determination in the context of Papua and Maluku?

The Indonesian foreign minister distinguishes the situation in Papua and Maluku from the Palestinian issue, emphasizing that they are entirely different cases. She implies that the historical and contextual factors make these situations incomparable.

Why hasn't Indonesia signed the Genocide Convention, and what is its position on the issue?

Indonesia has not signed the Genocide Convention because there is no national consensus on the matter. However, Indonesia supports the moral principles behind the convention and expresses solidarity with countries like South Africa in their efforts to address genocide-related issues.

What concerns have been raised about Indonesia's democracy under President Joko Widodo?

Concerns include the nomination of the president's son as a vice presidential candidate and the lowering of the age limit by the Constitutional Court, perceived as nepotism. There are worries about potential setbacks in democratic reforms, but the foreign minister insists that democracy is part of Indonesia's DNA.

What legacy does the Indonesian foreign minister believe she leaves after ten years in office?

The foreign minister highlights the shift in focus towards economic diplomacy, emphasizing economic cooperation and the protection of Indonesian nationals abroad. She also mentions Indonesia's leadership roles in international forums like the G20 and ASEAN during challenging times.

How does the Indonesian foreign minister view the future of Indonesia in the global context?

The foreign minister hopes that Indonesia will continue to play a bridging role in the global arena, advocating for collaboration and resilience amidst increasing global uncertainties and challenges.

How does the foreign minister justify Indonesia's actions at the international level concerning the Palestinian issue?

The foreign minister asserts that Indonesia is actively involved in various international forums, advocating for Palestinian rights. She argues that Indonesia's involvement is often behind the scenes but remains significant and visible in diplomatic efforts.

Outlines

00:00

🌍 Focus Shifts to International Court Over Gaza

The global focus is turning to the International Court of Justice as over 50 nations and various international bodies convene to address the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Indonesia, a long-time advocate for Palestinian rights, is actively participating. The Indonesian government is vocal against Israel's actions, demanding a cessation of unlawful activities and policies. The Indonesian Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, emphasizes Indonesia's constitutional mandate to support self-determination and explains Indonesia's commitment to the Palestinian cause.

05:00

🇺🇸 US Double Standards on International Law

The Indonesian Foreign Minister criticizes the inconsistency in the application of international law, highlighting the double standards, especially by Western countries. She stresses the need for consistent implementation of international laws and resolutions, particularly those concerning Palestinian rights and the two-state solution. The minister recalls previous ICJ opinions ignored by Israel and emphasizes the importance of upholding international law without bias.

10:01

🇵🇸 Indonesia's Diplomatic Efforts for Palestine

Indonesia's active role in advocating for Palestinian rights at international forums, including meetings with the US Secretary of State, is highlighted. The Indonesian Foreign Minister discusses her conversations with US officials about displacement issues in Gaza and the importance of a two-state solution. Despite US vetoes on resolutions, Indonesia continues to push for a ceasefire and justice for Palestinians, maintaining its stance on supporting Palestinian independence.

15:04

🕊️ Collective Responsibility and Global Response

The Indonesian Foreign Minister underscores the need for collective global responsibility to address the Palestinian issue. She discusses Indonesia's involvement in diplomatic efforts with the Arab League and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) to seek solutions. Despite behind-the-scenes work, she insists Indonesia is highly visible in these efforts. The minister calls for consistent international action and questions why other countries do not face similar sanctions for their policies as Israel does.

20:06

📈 Indonesia's Accession to OECD and Israel's Obstruction

Indonesia's bid to join the OECD, with no preconditions despite Israel's attempts to block it, is detailed. The Indonesian Foreign Minister states that normalization with Israel will only occur upon achieving a two-state solution. The accession process is seen as a prestigious step for Indonesia, and the minister remains firm on maintaining Indonesia's foreign policy principles without compromising on the Palestinian issue.

25:06

🇮🇩 Internal Self-Determination and Global Democracy

The Indonesian Foreign Minister addresses questions about self-determination within Indonesia, distinguishing it from the Palestinian issue. She explains the ongoing process of national consensus needed for signing the Genocide Convention, supporting South Africa's case morally despite not being a party. The minister reflects on Indonesia's democratic journey, asserting democracy as part of Indonesia's DNA despite recent political challenges.

🗳️ Indonesia's Democratic Journey and Future Prospects

The discussion covers Indonesia's democratic progress, the recent nomination of the president's son, and concerns about nepotism. The Indonesian Foreign Minister affirms the commitment to democracy despite vulnerabilities and external perceptions. She reflects on her decade-long tenure, emphasizing economic diplomacy and protection of nationals abroad. Looking ahead, she hopes Indonesia continues to play a bridging role in global affairs, fostering resilience and collaboration.

Keywords

💡International Court of Justice (ICJ)

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is the principal judicial body of the United Nations, tasked with settling legal disputes between states and providing advisory opinions on international legal issues. In the video, the ICJ is a focal point as over 50 nations, including Indonesia, converge to address the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.

💡Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories

This refers to Israel's military and administrative control over territories claimed by Palestinians, including the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza. The video discusses international efforts, led by nations like Indonesia, to address the legality and human rights implications of this occupation at the ICJ.

💡Indonesia

Indonesia is highlighted in the video as a country with a long-standing commitment to advocating for Palestinian rights. The Indonesian government, represented by Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi, speaks out against Israel's occupation and stresses the importance of international law and self-determination.

💡Palestinian rights

The rights of Palestinians, including the right to self-determination and freedom from occupation, are a central theme in the video. Indonesia and other nations argue for the protection and respect of these rights through international legal channels like the ICJ.

💡Self-determination

Self-determination is the principle that a nation has the right to freely choose its sovereignty and international political status without interference. The Indonesian Foreign Minister emphasizes this principle, citing its inclusion in Indonesia's constitution, as a reason for Indonesia's support of Palestinian rights.

💡Two-state solution

The two-state solution is a proposed framework for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by establishing an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. The video discusses Indonesia's advocacy for this solution and the challenges posed by Israeli and US positions on the matter.

💡Double standards

Double standards refer to the application of different sets of principles for similar situations. In the video, the Indonesian Foreign Minister criticizes the inconsistent application of international law by Western countries, particularly in the context of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.

💡UN Security Council resolutions

These are decisions made by the UN Security Council, often addressing issues of international peace and security. The video mentions that numerous resolutions regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have been adopted but not implemented, highlighting the need for consistent enforcement.

💡Ceasefire

A ceasefire is a temporary suspension of fighting, typically one that is agreed upon by all parties involved in a conflict. The video stresses the importance of a ceasefire in Gaza to halt ongoing violence and human suffering, as advocated by the Indonesian Foreign Minister.

💡Veto power

Veto power is the ability to unilaterally stop an official action, particularly in the context of the UN Security Council. The video discusses the use of veto power by countries like the United States to block resolutions related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, complicating efforts to address the situation.

💡OECD accession

The process of becoming a member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). The video touches on Indonesia's efforts to join the OECD and the challenges posed by Israel's opposition, reflecting Indonesia's commitment to its principles regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

💡Humanitarian crisis

A humanitarian crisis refers to a singular event or a series of events that are threatening in terms of health, safety, or well-being of a community or large group of people. The video discusses the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, characterized by daily atrocities and a high death toll, and the need for international intervention.

Highlights

The world is now shifting its focus to the International Court of Justice regarding the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.

Indonesia, with a long track record of advocating for Palestinian rights, is at the forefront of the case.

Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi emphasizes the country's constitutional mandate to support the right to self-determination.

Marsudi highlights the importance of consistent implementation of international law without double standards.

The minister criticizes Western countries for their inconsistent application of international law.

Marsudi underscores Indonesia's commitment to the two-state solution and the necessity for the US to uphold this stance.

Indonesia will take any possible avenue to defend justice and humanity for the Palestinian people.

Marsudi mentions Indonesia's active role in diplomatic efforts, including visits to the capitals of UN Security Council's permanent members.

Indonesia's involvement in international discussions and meetings emphasizes its visibility and commitment to the Palestinian cause.

The minister discusses the importance of collective responsibility and the role of P5 countries in resolving the issue.

Indonesia's accession to the OECD and the challenges posed by Israel's opposition are addressed.

The principle of a two-state solution remains a benchmark for Indonesia's normalization with Israel.

Marsudi distinguishes between Indonesia's stance on self-determination for Palestine and internal regional issues within Indonesia.

Indonesia's delay in signing the genocide convention is due to the need for national consensus.

The minister reflects on Indonesia's commitment to democracy despite challenges and the evolving political landscape.

Transcripts

the

world I'ma FAS in the hake as the war on

Gaza escalates the world is now shifting

its focus to the international court of

justice where more than 50 Nations and

several International bodies have

converged to address the Israeli

occupation of Palestinian

territories Indonesia a country with a

long track record of advocating for

Palestinian rights is one of them its

government has spoken out against

Israel's decades long occupation and

called for international law to be

respected Israel must cease

completely

unconditionally and

immediately all of its unlawful action

and policies in the occupied Palestinian

territory as the nation makes its case

at the icj the Indonesian foreign

minister ratno masudi talks to Al

jazer Indonesia's foreign minister rno

marui thank you for talking to Al jazer

thank you for having me Indonesia is one

of the countries on the Forefront of the

case at the international court of

justice on the legality of the

occupation of the Palestinian

territories why is this case so

important to Indonesia look at what

happened in the last 70 years atrocities

brutalities killing almost every day

especially currently in in in Gaza

so the question is can we stay still M

observing this very worrying and sad

situation it is not and in Indonesia in

particular our constitution mandated

about it about the right to

self-determination so it is mandated in

our constitution in Indonesian con

Constitution so there is no other way

that

Indonesia has to be in the Forefront for

the Palestinian cause um in this case is

before the icj but we have of course

seen over the decades that the situation

hasn't improved right yeah for the

Palestinian people we have had uh an

opinion from the icj before 20 years ago

Israel has completely ignored it why do

you think this time this case will make

a

difference the situation again number

one I want to respond first about the

implementation with the of the decision

of the UN resolution and I mention it

again and again in almost every meetings

that I have including during the G20

friend ministers meeting I mentioned

about please avoid double

standard we

said we need the international law we

need to uphold it and implement it in

consistent manner so to who did you say

no double standards to all to all of us

any anyone in particular maybe the US

Secretary of State I say it to all

before the G20 meeting and Al also in

any meetings because implementing the

international law in a consistent manner

because you feel it's not happening

right now happening as you mentioned

there is a rule before of the icj it did

not I mean the application is not there

and how many un Security Council

resolution have already been adopted for

the Palestinian including the mentioning

of the two-state solution so again the

implementation is very important and I

mean so many countries saying about the

international law international law rule

base

order say it implement it in a

consistent uh Manner and that's what you

mean with double standards right you're

talking about countries like the United

States or what what other countries are

you feeling now are having a double

standard well

uh

particularly the Western countries the

quite often mention about the

international law uh rule based but

again it applies to all it applies to

all whenever we see it please also do it

in a consistent manner but not pick and

choose because if it is pick and choose

then what happened is on uh on the

Palestinian uh people is just one of the

very bad example how double standard

applies in our uh life but Indonesia has

a very close Rel relationship with the

United States right you had a meeting

also with Anthony blinkin the the US

Secretary of State in in Brazil during

the G20 meeting what kind of pressure

can you put I mean or is it the

dependency you have from the United

States that also with holds Indonesia

back because you're worried about the

relationship um I had a very good

conversation and very good um

communication with Anthony blinkin so we

had a good communication I can convey

the position of Indonesia and especially

when I was in

Brazil I mentioned about number

one why the US FedEd again the

resolution number two I mention about

how important two issues that should be

upheld by the US number one is about

displacement

because not everybody is worried about

the displacement especially on the

southern part of Gaza in

Raa so and the US uh Administration

clearly mentioned against it so I said

that please keep it but they have also

again veto the resolution just a few

days ago the dis I think the the

position of the US is very clear so

that's why I mentioned about the issue

but how do you feel about the V2 uh let

me continue on the number two that I

mentioned to uh secretary

blinkin the importance of us to keep

their position on the two-state solution

because I'm really worried about this

two-state solution and the uh government

of the uh the Prime Minister Netanyahu

already mentioned that there is no

two-state solution there is no

Palestinian solution so what about all

the decision that we have taken in the

UN which we have to respect it so I just

want to present this is the resolution

this is the decision that we have taken

which you involve in it and what we need

is to implement it but not to cut it as

if that there is nothing there is

nothing there is no resolution on the

twoed solution so what kind of response

do you get if you say this to uh to blol

for example secretary B mentioned yes uh

the US maintain the position on two

issues that I mention that is on the

displacement and on the two-state

solution but I want to ask you again how

do you respond about the veto that again

the US has has put down on on a

resolution on on a ceasefire because we

know that hundreds of people in Gaza are

dying every day yeah I convey my

position that the ceasefire is very

important because ceasefire fire is a

Kem changer and I mention it before the

T20 meeting ceire is a Kem changer we C

fire I'm afraid that this situation will

continue but again what uh mentioned uh

by secretary blinkin during uh my

meeting uh the meeting with me is

exactly like the same of the statement

by the permanent representative of the

US uh at the UN during the UNS meeting

when the US V but Indonesia of course is

is a very important player it's the

largest Muslim country in the world has

a very strong cause uh for the

Palestinian people how do you feel as a

as a minister representing Indonesia in

a in this in this Circuit of

international leaders who who don't seem

to do anything at the moment I always

mention that Indonesia will take any

possible Avenue to defend

Justice to defend humanity and to be

with the Palestinian uh uh people

because as I mentioned to you it's

already over 70 years and I recall what

happened in bandom the Asia Africa

Summit paltin 19 in

1955 Palestine is the only country who

did not

enjoy Freedom uh Independence yet so we

owe to the Palestinian uh uh people and

again number two because it is in in

Constitution and number three though I

always uh mention that the issue of

Palestine is nothing to do with the

religious issue it is about the

principle but I think the voice of

Indonesia as the largest Muslim uh

population um is very important because

you you will get a lot of pressure I

know you have a lot of pressure from

Islamic organizations in Indonesia to do

more right about the situation in Gaza

don't you feel it Indonesia is yeah is

kind of invisible right now on the world

stage if you look at the situation in

Gaza should Indonesia not have a more

prominent role no Indonesia for this Cas

is very feasible it's very feasible and

well we don't see much right if you see

what's going on between Europe the

Middle East the US and and where was no

no we are very visible uh I I I'll tell

you um during the U the as the summit of

uh Arab Leakes and the

OIC Indonesia represented by the FR

minister is one of the foreign minister

that assigned by the leaders of Arab

League and also the OIC

to make effort to find ways to take uh

uh toward the solution of the situation

so together with the foreign minister of

Arab Saudi Jordan egyp Qatar turkey

Nigeria Indonesia and of course

Palestine uh we visited capitals of five

permanent members of the UN Security

Council and then when was that uh it was

in November it was in November so we

visited every capital of P5 countries

and we also had a meeting with with uh

Norway in Oslo I could not make uh make

it at that time but the rest of the

group faced Oslo met the foreign

minister of Norway not only Norway but

also with the NAIC countries plus with

the banalu but have you been able to

make a difference during that visit yeah

at least for example during the

conversation and I just met also the uh

new foreign minister of of France so we

tried to compare not and we tried to

under line the importance of their

contribution to solve the issue because

we thought their contribution the

situation will go nowhere so in terms of

pales uh Palestinian issue Indonesia is

almost everywhere e but not very visible

maybe behind the scenes but we don't

really see it in the Forefront maybe you

too Focus you're too focus on on the uh

surrounding countries but in every

meeting

about Palestine Indonesia is always in

the Forefront in your speech uh you said

that all the countries all the states

are responsible they have an obligation

shouldn't the world Step Up much more in

that

direction I think the word should sh

shall Step Up um you mentioned about the

collective responsibility the collective

Duty it's true we need that we need that

especially especially once again the P5

the member of Security Council they have

their responsibility they have their

duty to end the

atrocities and but they use the veto

every time and again yeah well that is

the issue that is the issue so once

again without Collective

responsibility it's very difficult and

you mentioned about

sanction um in a conversation with a

number of colleagues

I mentioned about if this kind of Acts

this kind of

policies does by other

countries what will be can you imagine

what will be the reaction of the word

what I can imagine is list of sanction

may be kicking off the country from many

organization will happen but what about

this it's quite OB obious it's it

happens every day but I mean it's unimag

unimaginable why we cannot solve the

issue because again the responsibility

should be ours all of us has the

responsibility uh your country Indonesia

has started accession uh discussions

with the oecd the uh Organization for

economic development and cooperation as

the first country in soueast Asia it's a

very prestigious thing but there were

some reports that Israel who is also a

member was trying to block your

accession have you have you been forced

to make some compromises there no no no

I mean um I make my statement very clear

since the the very beginning of course

the accession is there there is a

discussion the Dynamics I I fully uh

monitor the situation I had a very good

conversation communication with the

Secretary General of the OIC oecd and I

talk before the decision I talk to

almost all European Union foreign

ministers in they supported you

everybody support but Israel was trying

to block it and I mention that if the

trade off is between accession and

normalization with Israel now the answer

is simple

no so so finally they decide to um to

accept the accession of

Indonesia this is just a beginning IU

this is just a beginning so there was no

precondition from there's no

precondition we will see because some

country needs about five years some

countries even need eight years

if I mentioned the Benchmark for

Indonesia to normalize the relation with

Israel actually is very simple and we do

not create new element in it that is the

two-state solution it's already

mentioned everywhere so The Benchmark

Remains the two-state solution If Today

Palestine got the independence there is

a two State solution then immediately

tomorrow normalization will be there

asize that but it's a prestigious thing

as I said right it means a lot for

Indonesia this this uh membership would

you make that choice really on principal

grounds to not become a member because

Israel is there and is trying to to

block it once again the process just

started so I don't want to give the

hypothetical uh answer or it let us see

what is happening now the processes are

starting but they understand the

principle of the Indonesia uh foreign

policy it's very clear you talked a lot

about

self-determination right in your speech

at the icj Indonesia had of course also

in the past some groups within the

country asking for self-determination

the papan people in the East and you

have people in in the malas there were

even some people protesting what do you

tell them about

self-determination do you think that the

case is

similar I'm asking you

I don't think I mean

comparing the issue that you mentioned

with Palestine issue is completely

completely different things that is what

I can see and can you explain

why uh well I mean if you look at from

all the angles all the reason it's I

mean without thought explaining in

details a different it's quite it's

quite uh it's quite clear that comparing

uh I mean we don't have to compare or we

cannot compare to be more exact we

cannot compare those two cases but you

can't explain a bit further why two our

viewers who want to know because I I

think they might not know I just I just

give one example the historical

background that's

it so Indonesia was also considering to

support the case of uh South Africa at

the genocide case right at the icj but

then uh that's impossible because

Indonesia hasn't signed the genocide

convention why is that why we are not

there yet yeah yeah well the process is

not is not uh re uh uh does not reach

the final states of course to be a party

of a convention it is time it takes time

and we are not yet to reach the

consensus within the country about uh uh

being a party of the genocide um

convention but I talk with um South

Africa forign minister in uh Brazil and

we discussed about it and I mentioned to

her clearly though Indonesia is not in

the convention is not a party of the

convention but we give the moral support

what South Africa is doing uh right now

because the vast majority of countries

is is a signatory to the genocide

convention I think it's only like 40

countries who haven't ratified it right

and Indonesia is one of them is it has

it to do with the past with with what

happened

nation5 the national consensus is needed

in every convention that we will uh

choose to be uh a party a state party

and every countries of of course every

country has a a different view but every

country needs also their national uh

consensus like Indonesia but does it

does it have to do with things that

happened like more than 50 years ago

like in 1965 when there was a lot of

different regime right totally different

but there been as I mentioned to you I

mean the national consensus is not there

yet Indonesia has been uh called a

success story if you look at the democra

democratization right I was a witness

myself I've been in Indonesia for a long

time uh and from an authoritarian regime

to democracy

Indonesia was seen as an example uh

under this current president joku Doo

It's been sad that there is been some

setbacks on uh democracy and one of the

examples is what happened with the

nomination of his own son as a vice

presidential candidate and there was a

change uh in the Constitutional Court to

lower the age limit for a vice

presidential candidate which was

accepted by the court and the the the

ruling judge happens to be the

brother-in-law of the president

himself this doesn't sound like the

Reformation the reforms that I witnessed

in Indonesia in all those years do you

see this also as a setback and how do

you explain this to to colleagues for

example around the world well every

democracy um

has has always encountered Dynamics or

challenges but rest assured rest assured

that democracy is already being of the

DNA of

Indonesia how if you mention if you

mention about the up and down you

mention about it up and

down as long as the DNA is there in our

blood I mean but isn't it vulnerable if

you look around the world democracy is

on decline not only in Indonesia but in

other countries too it's a vulnerable

thing it's vulnerable thing it's

vulnerable thing and democracy is not

falling from the sky but we have to

nurture it and I think Indonesian

people remains committed to nurture to

build

democracy because again after being a

democratic country more than how many

years more than 20 25 25 years I mean

being a democratic country for 25 years

is very young it is but 25 years is

enough for us to said that democracy is

being one of the DNA of Indonesia but

would you then condemn what happened at

the Constitutional

Court people call it nepotism what I can

say is that whatever happened democracy

is part of the DNA of Indonesia the

other problem is with democracy might be

the the election of Pabo subbiano as the

new uh president of Indonesia uh he is

known as someone who has a a dark past

human rights abuses in the past and also

was banned by the United States for 20

years and he's now elected and very

possibly will be the next president of

Indonesia how worried are you with him

as the president about

democracy again IU I mentioned already

mention about the Democracy but I think

as you mentioned um during uh before the

conversation that this interview will be

focused on the Palestinian issue so I

think I'm enough conveying my message

about democracy that democracy is

already part of the Indonesian DNA and

we have the commitment to strengthen

democracy whatever the situation is so

you would be part of the new government

as the foreign

minister uh it is very difficult uh

question uh for me IU I've been in my

position for 10 years so I think it's

long enough really yes it is long enough

to be a friend Minister for 10 years in

those 10 years A lot has changed right

in the world if you look back because I

mean it's been a very turbulent time I

think worldwide we just been discussing

also the changing World Order uh also uh

double standard credibility of the West

how do you see after 10 years where the

world is going more uncertain more

instable that is what I what what I see

right now I'm a bit worried about the

situation if there is no commitment from

all of us to make it better but I try

also to see from the other side of the

coin in any challenge in any Dynamic

situ

situation there is a sense of resilience

there is a sense of collaboration like

in Co during the pandemic of

covid-19 so let us together nurture that

sense of

collaboration I've seen a lot on your uh

Instagram how active you are as a

foreign minister you you have this very

cool videos I have to say so so if you

look at your career for those 10 years

what is the Legacy you leave as a

minister it's again it's very difficult

because I mean I don't judge myself

whether

I what sort of Legacy that uh I live uh

but during the uh 10

years uh it's very obvious there is a

change of mindset from the Indonesian uh

Diplomat because in the past uh we talk

more on politics but now in any in every

meeting meeting with any countries the

politics is is important as always but

economic cooperation becomes more

important why economic diplomacy is very

important because it reflects the

interest of the uh the people and we

know that the foreign

policy should reflect the national uh

interest so that's why the economic

diplomacy is very dominant during the

last uh 10 years number two is about

protection of Indonesian National abroad

it becomes more stronger and stronger

and I'm so glad that during the 10 years

I got the opportunity or Indonesia got

the opportunity to lead the ch20 in 2022

as well as in asan in

2023 both the years are difficult years

and sometimes I said that it's like

nightmare when we were there but thanks

God alhamdulillah that we are able

Indonesia is able to pass through that

presidency the chairmanship in a good

way so where do you want to see

Indonesia in 10 years from now what I

want to see is Indonesia keep playing as

the preaching uh uh to play a preaching

role in

the in the word which is I can

anticipate it that the Gap the

differences in the future remains and

even maybe sharpen than now Indonesia's

foreign minister rno marui thank you for

talking to aler thank you very much

thank

[Music]

you