Can Scientists and Religious Leaders See Eye to Eye? | Middle Ground

Summary

In this thought-provoking discussion, a diverse group of individuals including a pastor, a Buddhist minister, a chemist, a volcanologist, a paleontologist, a Rabbi, and a reconstructionist Jew, explore the boundaries of science and faith. They delve into topics such as creationism, the design of the universe, the role of a supernatural being, and the innate human sense of morality. The conversation touches on personal experiences with faith, the limitations of science in explaining the unknown, and the participants' views on life, death, and the possibility of an afterlife, highlighting the complexity of reconciling religious beliefs with scientific understanding.

Takeaways

• 🤔 The participants in the discussion come from diverse backgrounds, including religious and scientific perspectives, reflecting a range of beliefs about the existence of a higher power and the nature of the universe.
• 🔬 A chemist and a volcanologist emphasize the limitations of science in explaining everything, including the design and purpose of the universe, and express skepticism about the idea of a benevolent creator.
• 🌌 A paleontologist and geologist discuss the challenges of reconciling a belief in creationism with scientific evidence and the discomfort it brings to their understanding of the universe's design.
• 💭 A Rabbi shares the view that the world is both sloppy and magical, suggesting that awe and respect for existence do not require a supernatural explanation.
• 📊 A discussion on morality arises, with participants suggesting that moral values are innate in humans and not necessarily derived from religious teachings or a deity.
• 🙏 A pastor and a minister share personal experiences of faith and the supernatural, highlighting the role of faith in their lives despite doubts and the lack of concrete evidence for divine intervention.
• 🧘‍♂️ A Buddhist perspective is presented, comparing life to waves in the ocean, suggesting that individual forms are temporary and part of a greater whole.
• 🤷‍♂️ Skepticism about an afterlife is expressed, with some participants arguing that there is no evidence for it and that life should be lived to the fullest with no regrets.
• 🤝 There is a shared sentiment of openness to questions and doubts, with participants encouraging the exploration of beliefs and the acceptance of uncertainty.
• 🔬 The importance of scientific inquiry and the value of learning from mistakes and failures are highlighted, with a call for a culture of sharing and learning from scientific errors.
• 🌐 The conversation underscores the complexity of understanding existence, with participants acknowledging the limits of both scientific knowledge and religious faith in providing complete answers.

Q & A

What is Matt's profession and how does he view the world's creation?

Matt is a pastor who believes in a God that created the world. He sees the world as a creation of an infinitely creative God, deserving of worship and affection.

How does Gyokei, as a Buddhist minister, perceive the concept of a creator?

Gyokei, a minister of a Buddhist church, does not rely on a supernatural creator to appreciate the beauty of the world. He sees the world as 'sloppy' but also 'magical' and worthy of awe and respect.

What is Andrew's professional background and his stance on supernatural beliefs?

Andrew is a chemist who does not believe in a supernatural God. He sees no need for a supernatural explanation to be amazed by the world and its complexities.

What is Jess's profession and her view on the world's design?

Jess is a volcanologist who views the world as poorly and sloppily designed, which does not point to a benevolent creator. She believes in using science to understand the world rather than relying on supernatural explanations.

How does Don, a paleontologist and geologist, approach the concept of creationism?

Don has battled creationism throughout his career and finds it problematic as it introduces elements that violate his scientific principles.

What is Amy's religious background and her perspective on morality?

Amy is a Rabbi and a reconstructionist Jew. She believes that morality is innate in humans and does not require a deity or religion to be understood or followed.

How does the discussion of morals relate to the participants' views on religion and science?

The participants agree that morals are a human construct and are not derived from a deity or religious doctrine. They also believe that science can guide moral understanding but does not dictate moral values.

What is Matt's personal experience with faith and prayer in a healing context?

Matt shared an incident where he prayed for someone's shoulder to heal, with minimal faith in the outcome, but was surprised when the person reported significant improvement the next day.

How does Gyokei describe the feeling of peace during a Buddhist chanting service?

Gyokei explains that during the chanting service, participants feel peaceful, even though it's difficult to explain this feeling logically.

What is the general consensus among the participants regarding the supernatural?

The participants generally agree that the supernatural is beyond the scope of scientific inquiry and is not necessary to explain the world or human experiences.

How do the participants view the concept of an afterlife?

There is a range of views on the afterlife among the participants. Some, like Don, see no evidence for it and live with the belief in a single life, while others, like Matt, hold onto the hope of an eternal relationship with God.

What is the common theme among the participants regarding the acceptance of uncertainty?

A common theme is the acceptance of not knowing and the comfort in acknowledging that there are things beyond human understanding, whether it's through science or faith.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Faith and Science: Exploring the Boundaries of Belief and Knowledge

This paragraph introduces a diverse group of individuals from various professions and beliefs, including a pastor, a Buddhist minister, a chemist, a volcanologist, a paleontologist, and a Rabbi. They discuss their perspectives on the existence of a creator, the role of faith in their lives, and the challenges of reconciling religious beliefs with scientific understanding. The conversation touches on creationism, the perceived design of the universe, and the innate human sense of morality. It highlights the personal fears and doubts of individuals when faced with questions that their beliefs might not fully address.

05:05

🔬 The Limits of Science and the Supernatural

In this paragraph, the participants delve into the limitations of science and its inability to explain everything, especially phenomena that are supernatural or beyond empirical testing. They discuss the comfort in acknowledging the unknown and the possibility that there may be aspects of existence that are yet to be discovered or understood. The conversation also explores personal beliefs about life after death, the fear of dying, and the idea of an eternal existence beyond our physical lives. The participants share anecdotes and personal stories that reflect their views on the impermanence of life and the search for meaning and purpose beyond the physical world.

10:06

🧐 Skepticism and the Pursuit of Knowledge in Science

The final paragraph focuses on the scientific method and the importance of skepticism, questioning, and the willingness to admit uncertainty or mistakes. It emphasizes the value of learning from failures and the joy of discovery in science. The participants, including a scientist and a Buddhist practitioner, share their views on the pursuit of knowledge, the process of scientific inquiry, and the balance between intellectual understanding and experiential wisdom. The paragraph concludes with a call for open-mindedness and the importance of questioning even one's own beliefs, as well as a reminder of the communal aspect of learning and growing through shared experiences.

Keywords

💡God

God is a central concept in many religious beliefs, often representing a supreme being or higher power. In the video, the concept of God is discussed in various contexts, such as Matt's faith in an 'Infinitely creative' God who deserves worship and affection, and Amy's reconstructionist Jewish perspective where reliance on a supernatural creator is not necessary to appreciate the world's beauty. The theme of the existence and role of God is a recurring point of discussion, reflecting the diverse beliefs and doubts among the participants.

💡Science

Science is the systematic study of the physical and natural world through observation and experimentation. The video script explores the relationship between scientific beliefs and the understanding of the universe. For example, Don, a paleontologist and geologist, has battled with creationism throughout his career, and Andrew, a chemist, discusses the limitations of science in explaining everything, suggesting that there may be phenomena beyond scientific comprehension.

💡Creationism

Creationism is the belief that the universe and life originated from specific acts of divine creation, rather than natural processes such as evolution. In the script, Don mentions his struggle with creationism, indicating a conflict between his scientific understanding and the religious belief in a creator. This term is key to understanding the tension between faith and scientific inquiry presented in the video.

💡Evolutionary Biology

Evolutionary biology is the study of the change in species over time through the process of evolution. Don, as an evolutionary biologist and paleontologist, discusses his career-long battle with creationism, which is in direct conflict with the principles of evolutionary biology. This concept is crucial to the video's exploration of the compatibility of religious beliefs with scientific understanding of life's origins.

💡Supernatural

The supernatural refers to phenomena that cannot be explained by the known laws of nature and are often attributed to a divine or spiritual force. In the video, Amy, a Rabbi, and Don, a scientist, both express their views on the supernatural. Amy does not rely on a supernatural creator for her beliefs, while Don questions the existence of supernatural phenomena, emphasizing the importance of testable hypotheses in science.

💡Morality

Morality pertains to principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. In the script, the participants discuss the source of morality, with some suggesting it is innate in humans and not reliant on religious doctrine. For instance, Jess, a volcanologist, believes that morals come from within humans and are not necessarily derived from a deity or religious teachings.

💡Faith

Faith is a strong belief in something, especially a religious context, without the need for empirical evidence. Matt, a pastor, and Amy, a Rabbi, both discuss their faith and its role in their lives. Matt's faith is in a God who is infinitely creative, while Amy's faith does not require a supernatural God to appreciate the world's beauty. The concept of faith is central to the video's exploration of belief systems and their impact on understanding the universe.

💡Religion

Religion refers to a system of beliefs, practices, and rituals often centered around the worship of a deity or deities. The video features participants from various religious backgrounds, such as Matt, a pastor, and Amy, a Rabbi, who share their perspectives on the role of religion in their lives and its compatibility with scientific understanding. Religion is a key theme in the video, as it influences the participants' views on existence, morality, and the supernatural.

💡Existence

Existence refers to the state of living or having presence. In the video, the participants contemplate the nature of existence, particularly in relation to life after death. Don expresses skepticism about an afterlife, while Matt discusses the Christian concept of eternal life. The concept of existence is integral to the video's theme, as it raises questions about the purpose and continuity of life beyond the physical world.

💡Skepticism

Skepticism is the attitude of doubting or questioning the validity of knowledge or beliefs. In the script, several participants, including Don and Jess, express skepticism about certain religious claims and the existence of an afterlife. Skepticism is a key concept in the video, as it reflects the participants' critical approach to understanding the world and their beliefs.

💡Experience

Experience refers to the practical contact with and observation of events or phenomena. In the video, Gyokei, a Buddhist minister, emphasizes the importance of experience in understanding concepts that go beyond intellectual understanding. The concept of experience is highlighted as a way to gain deeper insights into life's mysteries, complementing the rational approach of science and religious doctrine.

Highlights

Matt, a pastor, expresses his belief in a God who is infinitely creative and deserves worship and affection.

Gyokei, a Buddhist minister, discusses the concept of a creator and the challenges of reconciling science and religion.

Andrew, a chemist, shares his skepticism towards a benevolent creator based on the universe's perceived design flaws.

Jess, a volcanologist, questions the role of science in determining moral values, suggesting that morals are innate in humans.

Don, a paleontologist and geologist, debates creationism and its impact on scientific principles.

Amy, a Rabbi, fears being alone in her beliefs and discusses the complexity of faith.

The conversation touches on the idea that science cannot answer moral questions but can guide us in understanding societal norms.

Matt admits to having gaps in his faith that require a supernatural explanation, reflecting on a personal experience with prayer and healing.

Gyokei from Japan describes a spiritual practice that brings peace, even if it cannot be logically explained.

The participants agree that science is limited to testable hypotheses and cannot account for the supernatural.

Amy emphasizes the importance of questioning and the value of admitting what one does not know in both science and life.

The discussion explores the idea of an afterlife, with differing views on its existence and the continuation of personal identity.

Matt shares a childhood memory that sparked his questioning of religious beliefs, particularly about the afterlife.

The participants acknowledge the lack of evidence for an afterlife and the importance of living a meaningful life in the present.

Gyokei reflects on the Buddhist teachings of gratitude and the value of each day, despite personal skepticism.

The conversation highlights the importance of questioning and learning from failures in the scientific process.

The participants agree on the value of experience beyond intellectual understanding, emphasizing the role of personal beliefs and emotions.

Transcripts

If we just take God out of it, might there not be some things right that your scientific beliefs can't explain?

My name is Matt, I'm 41 years old. I'm a pastor.

I'm Gyokei, I'm 40 years old. I'm a minister of a Buddhist church.

I'm Andrew, I'm 42, and I'm a chemist.

I'm Jess, I'm 36, and I'm a volcanologist

I'm Don, I'm 64. I'm a paleontologist and geologist.

I'm Amy, I'm 53, and I'm a Rabbi

This is literally my greatest fear that I'd be all alone in the circle.

I believe that this world was created

I've placed my faith in a God that is

Infinitely creative in what he's made. He then deserves my worship and my affection.

Seriously last night I was talking to wife. I was like 'what if there's a question that I'm

the only one that agrees to?' She's like 'just stay where you are,' and I was like 'I don't know'

The big problem is that means they start talking with creator and I've battled

Creationism most my entire career as an evolutionary biologist and paleontologist,

it brings in a whole category of things that violate my rules as a scientist as well and

When I step back from that, especially when I step back from where I started as a religious person when I was younger

I look at this and I say, you know

if anything what we see now about the universe shows how poorly designed it is how sloppy it is and how painful it is and

all these things which don't speak to a very benevolent creator because if anything it makes him look bad.

I don't believe in a supernatural God. I'm a reconstructionist Jew. For me, I don't

rely on a supernatural creator in order to remain astounded at the beauty of

this world, that's sloppy.

It's the world right? It's the world. We're sloppy, the world is sloppy, but it's also incredibly

magical and and and worthy of awe and and respect and

That it's here is amazing that we're here is amazing and I want to live in relationship to that amazement

I never looked to science to go, like, "Is murder right or wrong?"

I look to science to say "How many murders were committed last week?"

You know? That - that's what I want to know and then say "Is there a trend?"

"What is the cause of these murders?" And then we use, you know, we use different,

tools, I guess is the best way of putting it, to, to assess whether or not we should be murdering people.

- Where did - where do those morals come from?

- I think they're innate in humans.

All societies have had certain things that agree on. A Makar, that's a religious background, and so on.

We don't require a deity or any kind of religion to give us those things.

And we come with them as part of our species.

And for me, it's not so much that science can answer moral questions, but science certainly can guide us in a lot of ways,

especially when moral questions in conflict with realities we've now learned it.

- I've got serious gaps in my faith that require a supernatural answer. I mean, I can't.

I can't understand and fathom the complexities of the universe all on my own. I'm a Christian. At a church service,

someone had a hurt shoulder and they said "My shoulder really hurts. Will you pray for my shoulder to get better?"

I'll be honest with you. I have about 5% faith that that's gonna work out. But I prayed for him.

I put my hand on his shoulder and I said, you know,

"I want this shoulder to get healed in Jesus name," and I walked away thinking

"Oh no, another disappointed person who didn't get healed today."

Well, the next morning that person called me and said "You wouldn't believe it. My shoulder feels 100 percent better."

I still don't have a good answer to that.

But I just know every time I get an answer or an opportunity

to exercise my faith in a supernatural way,

I want to take that opportunity because I just don't know what the answer might be. It could be something terrific.

- I totally agree with you. I liked when you said 5% I pretty much feel the same way, yeah.

But in my hometown in Japan, like, we have this kind of service to instead of consultive spirits in the line

When we chant for like an hour, you know half an hour maybe then

Everybody feels a whole I feel so peaceful

But then can quite explain it like logically and that's the stuff

That's it's efficient in that situation

Science is all about understanding what we can understand and the science

You're pretty much not allowed to even consider is the supernatural because it's beyond testable hypothesis

It's beyond anything that you can evaluate in any- what we might call an objective manner

We are comfortable with the idea that we do not know something and we say we do not know something and that some day

We might find the answer, or we may not.

There's a lot out there that we can't explain

It has absolutely nothing to do with my beliefs

I was raised Catholic and I'm just as confused now as I was then about what's really going on, you know?

There is a small amount of stuff we can explain. I don't need to have a belief about it

I don't even need to go beyond that just to decide that it's

magnificent and terrifying all at the same time and just kind of leave it at that

So I think your your answer to the question would have been yes. I mean because I think you might agree that there's

Stuff that you can't even know to test

Yet so- maybe there's something beyond scientific theory and proof that we don't even know yet, and I'm not saying God,

If we just take God out of it,

might there not be something, right, that-

that your scientific beliefs can't explain.

That's right, certainly

But and also in my philosophy, I don't see any point in putting any kind of supernatural label on it as an explanation

It's just not solving the problem

I'm so glad you're with me because I didn't want it to here all by myself. I

Yeah I mean , I just see

purpose for our lives that extends beyond the here and now that there is an eternity that God

wants to have with us, his love for us is so deep that it desires to have a continued relationship with us as

As far as time goes on.

Because I live in Long Beach

I go down to the beach and I see the waves of the ocean

At the beach they- they come ashore and leave - we compare that to life

We take different shapes in different forms and the length of the wave, we have no idea. You'll show up in different locations

Which you have no control

The idea of this momentary shape that we have, this life and trying to preserve it

You know and then we're kind of missing the whole point that we are actually that greater ocean

In my limited capacity as a

Individual human like in this form and this shape. I have no idea

how could I possibly have any idea about what that being ocean is gonna mean or be and

so I know that I will continue to be part of the universe but not as

me, not as this.

I would agree with that

I mean, I see no evidence from anything that I can observe or anything that that goes on

that it's more than just wishful thinking that humans in some form are gonna exist in some afterlife or they're recognizable and their identities carry on

When I was a kid, I asked my dad

Mm-hmm. If our pets would be waiting for us in heaven when we died

and my dad said no and I was shocked and I was like

Why would there not be pets in heaven and my dad's like well?

there are animals and I'm like why not my animals and he's like well

There's just like, a generic cat and a generic dog. And I went "wait, what?" and so at that point

that's when I started to question. Like wait a minute what happens next?

And uh- and yeah, I'm kind of you know with a lot of you guys here

I'm just saying that look

You know

It wouldn't it be great if we could go on and on and on but I think because we don't see any evidence for it

I have to be in the camp of, well

we get this one shot, make the most of it, do the best you can and then when it's done,

you know, don't have any regrets,

you know, live with doing as much as you could that is good so that you will live on in the memories of those who

stay behind.

I'm so sorry your dad told you your dogs not going to heaven. What what a crushing thing to hear as a child

You know all good dogs go to heaven

Thats what the movie said!

It must be true

I think he was trying to, you know like, let me down gently. Yeah, I know.

Like some days I'm like totally Zen I'm totally like solely there like it's okay. It's all one and I will just not exist

I'm usually not as afraid of death as I am of dying

Like I mean, I'm afraid of dying because I've seen some really bad dying

I'm very afraid of pain and a you know, the process of dying

I lost both my parents from cancer, so I witnessed the whole process. My mom died

Over

30 years ago and

It was it was painful to witness that part

I mean, my mom's kind of has health deteriorate my dad

went through the same process

But then he was once writing letters as it just really

Coincides with some Buddhist teachings that I'm having a wonderful day and really grateful for everybody who support us

We have a saying that every day is

As you say the greatest day I can see that, you know intellectual

I can understand it intellectually

but I just wasn't sure if I could I

Could feel if I I would be able to say something like that if I'm put in the situation

Man, I'm such a skeptic and that includes questioning my own

My own beliefs, especially if I form a hypothesis, and I'm working on an experiment

I mean you always kind of want it to go a certain way and you have to do your best to remove that

That bias and then some a lot of times if you're in research just doesn't work

one of the things I tell students because I work with students a lot with my nonprofit organization and

I tell them you know as they're

journeying into becoming

Scientists and they come from all sorts of different backgrounds and I just say look don't ever work with anyone who's afraid to admit that

They don't know something or that they're wrong

Like those are really important qualities whether it's in science or any aspect of life

The whole fun in being a scientist is trying to break things and I actually wanted to start a journal of scientific mistakes

so that we could share with each other what went wrong because too often we only talk about the successes and I think it's very

its very valuable to also know what failure is and what it teaches us the questioning. Is that such a healthy thing

I always think it's a healthier thing

So whenever I see younger man asks a priest like yeah

Go ahead and question question me a question what you do and then be okay and you need to understand?

understand intellectually

But at the same time I want to understand there are things that's beyond this intellectual understanding

so that's an

Unrecognizable part of understanding that comes only through experience

Nice to meet you. Thank you good to meet you

Hey guys, this is John I'm Kendra thank you so much for watching this episode of middle ground

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