Russia's scary INFO WAR on West (VLAD REACTS to Ian Garner)
Summary
TLDREl video destaca la preocupante guerra informacional que Rusia libra contra Occidente, ignorada por los medios y los gobiernos, que se debate entre la libertad de expresión y la necesidad de proteger la democracia de la desinformación y la polarización. Ian Bremmer, en su artículo en Foreign Policy, insta a tomar medidas audaces y a centrarse en la educación cívica para contrarrestar la influencia rusa y preservar la confianza en nuestras instituciones democráticas.
Takeaways
- 📢 La guerra informacional de Rusia contra el Occidente es un ataque serio que amenaza la democracia.
- 🔍 Los gobiernos occidentales y las plataformas de redes sociales han sido reacios a actuar contra la propaganda rusa por temor a limitar la libertad de expresión y contribuir a la polarización política.
- 🌐 La influencia rusa ha penetrado profundamente en la política y la sociedad occidentales, con agentes rusos en múltiples niveles.
- 📚 La falta de una estrategia coherente en el Occidente frente a la desinformación rusa es un problema crítico.
- 💭 La crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas es un desafío fundamental que subyace a la crisis de desinformación.
- 🤔 La percepción de la desinformación como un error cognitivo puede ser un enfoque simplista que no considera las emociones políticas y la agencia política de los ciudadanos.
- 📈 La desinformación rusa utiliza y amplifica conflictos preexistentes en la sociedad occidental para su propio beneficio.
- 🌍 La respuesta efectiva a la desinformación rusa requiere una cooperación internacional y medidas concretas para proteger el espacio público de la influencia extranjera.
- 📚 La educación cívica es crucial para capacitar a los ciudadanos para navegar y comprender mejor el entorno informativo.
- 🚫 La tolerancia hacia la propaganda rusa en las redes sociales debe cesar, y las plataformas deben ser penalizadas por permitir su diseminación.
- 🛡️ La defensa contra la guerra informacional debe ser considerada como una parte esencial de la defensa nacional.
Q & A
¿Qué es la guerra informacional que Rusia está librando contra Occidente según Ian Gner?
-La guerra informacional que Rusia está librando contra Occidente es un esfuerzo continuo de desestabilizar las democracias occidentales mediante la propagación de desinformación y la influencia en los procesos electorales y el debate público, afectando decisiones sobre la ayuda a Ucrania y otros asuntos de política exterior.
¿Cómo se relaciona la guerra informacional con la crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas?
-La guerra informacional se ve como una parte integral de la crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas, ya que la desinformación y la influencia extranjera se utilizan para exacerbar la polarización y la desconfianza en los representantes políticos y las instituciones, lo que a su vez profundiza la polarización y la desconfianza en la sociedad.
¿Qué sugiere Ian Gner sobre cómo abordar la guerra informacional de Rusia en Occidente?
-Ian Gner sugiere que Occidente debe reenmarcar las campañas de desinformación de Rusia y otras actividades de influencia en el lenguaje de guerra, formar una coalición para coordinar acciones legales y medidas para limitar la influencia rusa en los medios sociales, y promover una educación cívica que enseñe a los ciudadanos a negociar el entorno informativo y contrarrestar los ataques rusos.
¿Qué es el papel de las plataformas de redes sociales en la guerra informacional de Rusia?
-Las plataformas de redes sociales han sido utilizadas por Rusia para diseminar propaganda y mensajes a través de bots, trolls, campañas publicitarias dirigidas y cuentas falsas, lo que ha contribuido al éxito de su guerra informacional contra Occidente.
¿Qué medidas específicas propone Ian Gner para contrarrestar la influencia rusa en las redes sociales?
-Gner propone que los gobiernos occidentales deben actuar en concierto para pasar leyes y medidas que impidan que Rusia alimente directamente su información a los ciudadanos occidentales a través de las redes sociales, y que las plataformas deberían ser amenazadas con penalidades para permitir la propagación de la propaganda rusa.
¿Qué es la importancia de la educación cívica en la lucha contra la desinformación?
-La educación cívica es crucial para enseñar a los ciudadanos a comprender y contrarrestar los ataques de desinformación en sus diferentes formas, dándoles las herramientas para negociar el entorno informativo y mantener una sociedad informada y crítica.
¿Cómo se relaciona la desinformación con la crisis de confianza y la polarización en la sociedad?
-La desinformación se ve como un producto de la crisis de confianza y la polarización, ya que la desconfianza en las instituciones y los representantes políticos lleva a la gente a buscar y creer en fuentes de información que confirman sus prejuicios y miedos, a menudo alimentados por actores externos como Rusia.
¿Qué es el riesgo de la pensée algorithmique según el discurso?
-La pensée algorithmique es el riesgo de reaccionar a las superficies de las palabras y los signos que vienen con ellas, en lugar de a su significado, lo que conduce a una dinámica binaria y reductora que es destructiva para el pensamiento libre y la democracia.
¿Qué sugiere el discurso sobre cómo abordar la desinformación de manera constructiva?
-El discurso sugiere que en lugar de simplemente refutar con otros slogans o desinformación, debemos fomentar un diálogo público que involucre a todos los ciudadanos, manteniendo un espacio para la conversación y el progreso en la imaginación y el pensamiento estratégico.
Outlines
📚 Introducción a la guerra informacional rusa
El video comienza con una introducción a un episodio largo que abordará la guerra informacional de Rusia contra Occidente, el estado de nuestro entorno informativo y cómo podemos mejorar la situación o evitar empeorarla. Se menciona un artículo de Ian Gner en Foreign Policy y se destaca la importancia de la experticia en una democracia, así como la necesidad de proteger nuestro espacio informativo.
🌐 Impacto de la interferencia extranjera y la polarización cultural
Se discute el impacto de la interferencia extranjera maligna en nuestro discurso y la polarización cultural que estamos experimentando, donde las personas se ven como enemigos más que como opositores. Se menciona la falta de una estrategia coherente de Occidente para abordar la desinformación y la guerra de información, y cómo las medidas tomadas hasta ahora han sido ineficaces.
🔍 Análisis de la influencia rusa y la crisis de confianza
Se explora la influencia de los agentes rusos en la política y la sociedad occidentales, y cómo la falta de una estrategia occidental ha permitido que la desinformación se propague. Se aborda la crisis de confianza en las instituciones públicas y cómo esta se relaciona con la desinformación y la polarización.
🛡️ La guerra informacional y la defensa de la democracia
Se describe cómo Rusia está ganando la guerra informacional contra Occidente, utilizando tácticas como bots, trolls y campañas publicitarias dirigidas. Se menciona la entrevista de Vladimir Putin y cómo se ha convertido en una herramienta de propaganda. Se argumenta que la respuesta de Occidente ha sido insuficiente y que se debe tomar medidas más efectivas.
🌐 La influencia de Rusia en las redes sociales y la polarización
Se analiza cómo Rusia ha utilizado las redes sociales para influir en la opinión pública y exacerbar la polarización. Se menciona la falta de acción por parte de las plataformas y los gobiernos occidentales, y cómo la polarización está siendo utilizada como una herramienta en la guerra de información.
📖 Sugerencias prácticas para abordar la desinformación
Se presentan algunas sugerencias de Ian Gner para abordar la desinformación, incluyendo la refráming de las campañas de desinformación de Rusia como actos de guerra y la necesidad de una coalición de gobiernos occidentales para pasar leyes que limiten la influencia rusa en los medios sociales.
📚 Educación cívica y la lucha contra la desinformación
Se aboga por una educación cívica que enseñe a los ciudadanos a navegar el entorno informativo y a entender y contrarrestar los ataques de Rusia. Se sugiere que los programas de educación cívica deberían enfocarse en cómo lidiar con la desinformación en general, más que en la desinformación rusa específica.
🌐 La guerra de la información y la defensa democrática
Se argumenta que la guerra de la información es una parte integral de la guerra militar de Rusia y que la desinformación está integrada en la estrategia de Moscú para conquistar Ucrania. Se sugiere que Occidente debe actuar de manera más agresiva para defender su democracia y evitar que Moscú gane una guerra híbrida en Occidente.
🚨 Advertencia final sobre la desinformación y la confianza
Se concluye con una advertencia sobre los peligros de la desinformación y cómo se debe abordar la crisis de confianza en nuestras democracias. Se enfatiza la importancia de no caer en la polarización y de buscar soluciones que promuevan un diálogo público y la libertad de pensamiento.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡información
💡guerra informacional
💡desinformación
💡propaganda
💡confianza
💡democracia
💡Ucrania
💡libertad de expresión
💡cultura de la guerra fría
💡medios de comunicación
💡educación cívica
Highlights
The West is oblivious to Russia's informational war, which is part of a larger cultural war.
Expertise is considered sacred in a democracy as it is a central counter majoritarian institution.
Our informational space is considered sacred as it sustains our discourse and democracy.
The crisis of trust in public institutions is the biggest since the European Revolutions of 1848.
The information crisis is a reflection of a deeper crisis of trust and democratic incapacity.
Russia's information war against the West is showing signs of success.
Western social media companies have not acted effectively against Russian interference.
Russian influence operations have penetrated Western politics and society.
Western governments lack a coherent approach to Russian disinformation.
The crisis of trust is linked to a sense of political agency and truth.
The West needs to reframe Russia's disinformation campaigns in the language of war.
Western policymakers must act in concert to pass laws restricting Russian influence.
Civic education is crucial for understanding and countering Russian attacks.
The West should consider flooding pro-Russian channels with Western messaging.
Algorithmic thought is a danger that threatens free thought and democratic discourse.
Transcripts
hello beautiful Community happy Sunday
today we are doing a longish episode
we'll do a reading of a piece about
Russia's scary informational war against
us the state of our informational
environment and what we might do to make
the situation better and what we might
avoid doing to make the situation worse
and we'll do this by reading a piece by
Ian gner in foreign
policy um titled now authors are not
typically responsible for titles that
pieces get the West is still oblivious
to Russia's informational War Paralyzed
by Free Speech concerns Western
governments are loath to act many of you
will know Ian from his book The Zed
generation and uh we'll put um the name
of the book down below our video and a
link to the foreign policy article as
well but let's ground ourselves first a
little bit as we like to do on this
channel first before the
reading experts are
sacred right you're going to be reading
a piece by an expert and experts are
sacred they're not sacred because
they're right or they're thinking in the
right way about the challenges we face
or because they agree with you or me
they're sacred because expertise often
academic expertise is in of itself a
central counter majoritarian institution
in a democracy you lose it and it's a
bit like losing the courts or losing
another count of majoritarian
Institutions you don't get democracy you
get a society that is untethered from
the practiced virtue of truthfulness and
a society like that can't sustain itself
democratically so we've got to ask a lot
of experts they shouldn't be assessed
they should stay in their Lane but at
the same time we are screwed without
them and so there is a sacredness to
them and we have to feel that a little
bit the second thing I think we got to
feel is that our informational space is
sacred because on it is also dependent
the sustenance of our discourse and the
sustenance of our public squares and in
the under sustenance of our
democracy that feels hard and that even
feels wrong to you when I say it because
why you telling me to treat sacred what
feels to me on a daily basis like a kind
of ill assorted sest poool of
Darkness
um
it's precisely because that
to public squares our informational
environment is in such a bad
way they've got to be very very gentle
about how we think about it how we talk
about it and how we try to make it
better and I understand a tendency to
kind of lash out at it and maybe even
throw a couple of poison arrows just
into it because it all just feels so
intimidating and um sometimes even
unintelligible don't do
that if you do that don't beat yourself
up for it reflect on it reflect on how
that expresses your character who you
want to be how you want to lead your
life um
and don't beat yourself too much for
partaking in some of the destructive
Dynamics um that you encounter on the
internet and also know that sometimes
you might really really beat yourself up
for partaking in such Dynamics and then
you got to be gentle on on yourself and
gentle on the part of you that doesn't
want to be gentle with yourself so
that's a little bit of a a grounding
before we jump in so what are we jumping
into really well I I haven't read Ian p
yet I've just had a cursory look at it
uh and it seems like it's a long
discussion with a couple of practical
suggestions practical tips that will
come to at the end but we've got to
appreciate
that we
are living in a political moment of
moment in which our debates about the
state of our informational environment
are themselves part of our cultural
Wars
and that our
disagreements and
our conflicts about the impact of malign
foreign interference on
our
discourse that that itself is part of
our culture wars and our culture wars
are
deep we are experiencing a level of
polarization through which we're
beginning to relate to one another in
our own societies where whether you're
in France in in in Canada in Australia
we're beginning to relate to each other
not as opponents but as enemies so we're
living in a dynamic in which we risk
seeing each other as
enemies and in which our very
conversation about the state of our
informational environment and our very
evaluation of the extent of malign
foreign interference in our democracies
by the Chinese or by the Russians
Russians will be the top topic today
that itself is mobilized and
instrumentalized in our domestic culture
wars and then when it comes to you know
Ian Solutions we're going to see what
Ian proposes but one of the paradoxes we
have is this situation of trying to pull
ourselves out of the water um without
having anything to reach for because we
are living through a crisis of trust in
which we're going to have have to ask
institutions that have themselves lost
trust to take measures to mitigate the
loss of
trust okay enough enough let's
start I am going to probably
skip um evidence giving and explanations
and elaborations from time to time so we
might end up reading 60 70% of Yan's
article and I don't know how we'll go
either I'll give a bit of analysis as we
go along
or um at the
end
Ian a few weeks ago a Russian autocrat
addressed millions of Western citizens
in a propaganda event that would have
been Unthinkable a generation
ago yet it's so normal today as to
almost be un remarkable taka Carlson's
interview with the Russian
nonresident that's me Vladimir Putin has
now been viewed more than 120 million
times on YouTube on X uh formerly known
as Twitter despite the tedium of Putin's
2hour long lecture about an imaginary
Russian and Ukrainian history the
streaming and promotion of the interview
by Western platforms is only the latest
successful foray into Russia's
information war against the West which
Moscow is showing every sign of winning
look look at
that so going gangho in the first
paragraph which Moscow is showing every
sign of winning well quite certainly we
can
say that they
are waging an information war on us we
might say a bit more about it as we go
along and they are trying to win it
right um then comes a conversation about
the
impact uh relative to the commotion they
generate uh an impact relative their to
their um desire to make an impact and we
can talk about that um
and Ian is being alarmist here and
perhaps that's
reasonable and in this war the krin
isn't just weaponizing social media but
relying on westerners themselves to
spread its message far and
wide a decade into Russia's all out
information War social media companies
seem to have forgotten their promises to
act after the 2016 US Presidential uh
election interference
Scandal
um and again here we must recognize that
the interference
occurred um we
must uh having said that then have a
conversation about its efficacy
when Russian sponsored post reached 126
million Americans on Facebook
Alone um policy makers not only seem
oblivious to the full breath and scope
of Russia's information War but fears
about stifling freedom of speech and
contributing to political
polarization
um we'll get to that I'm sure in more
detail have led them and the social
media companies to largely refrain from
any action to stop Russia's ongoing
campaign now of course we're talking
about ourselves here while what some of
us might argue are our public squares of
which this being this is one um are in
the hands of potato chip companies um
that's to say there is a question about
the political
legitimacy of how our public squares are
regulated and curated uh we often debate
what is the best way to curate them um
what is the best way for YouTube to
organize its algorithm for
example but an even more basic question
is could anything that YouTube does be
perceived actually as more legitimate
than what my corner uh a vegetable store
would do if we asked it to moderate this
Public Square
this in action Ian says comes amid
growing signs of Russian influence
operations that have deeply penetrated
Western politics and Society dozens if
not hundreds or more of Russian agents
have been observed everywhere from
English towns to Canadian universities
many of these agents are lowlevel and
appear to achieve little individually
but occasionally they penetrate
institutions companies and
governments
I'm going to skip a couple of sentences
for many decades Western societies have
been DED with every sort of influence
imaginable while there have been some
countermeasures since the start of
Russia's latest War including in the US
and the EU shutting off access to
Russian media Network such as RT and
Sputnik in early 22 these small
ineffective steps are the equivalent of
information War virtue signaling they're
not
fundamentally they do not fundamentally
change Western government's lack of any
coherent approach to the many vectors of
Russian disinformation hydrid Warfare so
we often talk about a lack of Western
strategy on the military front and on
the front of the issue of the
politicization of the Russian space and
uh a strategic approach to questions of
European security and Security in
Eastern Europe and security on the EXO
Soviet space and we talk about why
that's so and how that might be linked
to what we call our Democratic
incapacity but here Ian is saying we
also have a strategy challenge a
strategy deficit in the infow
war Ian at the very moment when Kremlin
narratives on social media beginning to
ser seriously undermined support for
Ukraine Western government's handle on
the disinformation crisis seems to be
getting weaker by the day
so let's take a preliminary interlude
here and lay two things on to each other
one is the information crisis the other
is the crisis of
trust as you know I believe that the
information crisis we face
um um sits a
top uh a more fundamental challenge
which is our crisis of trust they call
it the biggest crisis of trust in public
institutions since the European
Revolutions of
1848
and you guys if you're regular here are
bought to Infinity
with my repeating something like a sort
of four plus four model four social
forces of democratic
degeneration four psychic psychologies
of diminution of trust right so the four
social forces are roughly I mean they're
just placeholders but are
roughly the untethering of communal
bonds through various political and
economic forces of Fusion right
communities pulled apart families pulled
apart a great deal of mobility and so on
um number one number two of course the
state of the internet which is where you
now engaging right now number three
various mechanisms of systemic
exclusion and number
four ideologies of psychic
self-realization that emphasize
authenticity or even certain distortions
of the value of authenticity at the
expense of solidarity and the public
good the the
psychic mirror of this in
four um steps is that least importantly
people feel unsafe with their public
institutions um because they feel that
they're incompetently run then more
worryingly people feel powerless they
feel there's no way to inflect the
political process around them then
people feel betrayed right getting
closer to the heart of the challenges of
polarization here people feel that um
political Representatives who they
disagree within their country aren't
just opponents but are enemies and are
positively
evil right so betrayal and the worst of
all emotions is um this feeling
of finding your political institutions
all your public institutions indeed even
Public Health institutions opaque you
look at them and it don't make any sense
what you're seeing you're looking at an
ill assorted game of sport where four or
five games are being played and it's a
flurry of baseball bats cricket bats
footballs and you can't make heads or
tails of it and the Instinct you get is
an instinct toward destruction well
let's get rid of this thing if it is uh
so disturbingly
unintelligible and very
often um when we accuse fellow citizens
of being victims of
disinformation
um it it's both true that we might be
right that they're pedaling half true
truths or untruths but it's also the
case that they are responsive to a deep
crisis of trust and perhaps on top of
this 4 plus4 model let's add a point
about agency a lot of people feel that
what you and I might cast as a truthful
picture of our
societies is so oppressive to them that
it just extinguishes political agency
their sense of itical agency so that's
to say it's not that people are dumb and
they need to wise up and they need to
stop falling for bad
disinformation we need to debate how far
that in itself is a useful thing to say
it is to some
extent it it's rather that we're living
in a social moment in which there is a
conflict between tens of millions of
citizens sense of sense of political
agency and truth and if we say that
that's a genuine social conflict it's
not just a matter of a few Trump voters
being
ignorant um and we can't just say that
all that's wrong here is um
irrationality or poor information so you
see you see how everything we've just
very curly put on the canvas
suggests
um uh a different emphasis right to a
line which says disinformation just
means people are making cognitive errors
they're not thinking clearly they're
brainwashed and so on right we're
talking about um people experiencing
real political emotions that exp that
are understandable in many
ways um that aren't M intellectual
errors um and these produce a situation
where certain pictures of their society
that um uh other citizens insist on um
that they might be often true are just
unpalatable to them they feel that it
would be a kind of political self
ulation to buy into it
right so underneath the crisis of
disinformation we have a crisis of
trust for Putin's Russia information
psychological warfare as um a Russian
military textbook calls it in is int
ended to erode the morale and
psychological Spirit of an enemy
population Ian
elaborates and I invite you to read the
piece if you want to read every sentence
let's go on
Moscow launches its attacks using a
Playbook similar familiar to anyone who
watched the disinformation campaigns
linked to the 14 invasion of Crimea in
the 16 presidential election Bots trolls
targeted ad campaigns fake news
organizations and doppelganger accounts
of real Western politicians and pundits
spread stories concocted in Moscow or in
Petersburg where the Vagner group leader
pran ran um an army of
trolls skipping a little
more what is undoubtedly new is a
polarized Western Public's enthusiasm
for reentering its own ident entity
around moscow's narratives and becoming
an unwitting weapon in the information
War take konon for instance and here Ian
elaborates and we skip while ordinary
users are certain that they're merely
speaking their minds a domestic policy
issue has ultimately turned into a
vehicle for Moscow to exert influence
over National Security
decisions such phenomena are all too
familiar whether they relate to the US
Presidential um election influence
Scandal we've just given a couple of
sent again to the constant reiteration
of moscow's talking points about NATO or
to the web of useful idiots um from
quasi journalists to rappers who seem to
function as mouthpieces for the Kremlin
by consistently spreading favorable
narratives under the guise of asking
questions or presenting two sides of
this story we're just having a
conversation man it's an exchange of
ideas
man Dave
Rubin Moscow also exploits nonwestern
networks such as telegram Tik Tok to its
own
advantage and here Ian is elaborating a
bit on Tik
Tok
now let's make a couple of remarks
briefly
it's quite standard of the Russians that
what what they're
into is not seeding new conflict but
taking a look at what conflicts already
animate
us and trying to make them
worse via uh sort of um
oversaturation of the informational
environment
by ill assorted messages that um
destructively appeal in various ways to
different
groups this raises a very very important
question about measuring impact and
whatever views you take of measuring
impact it's very important that there
are no obvious no obvious answers to it
um it's not easy to measure such impact
because the conflicts we're dealing with
are organic to our societies
typically and so have the Russians
exaggerated conflict X by trivially
speaking
0.1% or by 1.1% or by
71% got to go slow here and why do we
want to go slow here we want to go slow
here because because the Terminus here
is back to polarization right that's to
say treating other people uh in our
society as enemies because they are if
you like s soldiers right of the mission
of malign foreign
interference emanating out of this um
maniacal destructive and
self-destructing Empire in Moscow hang
on I'm just getting a telephone call on
on my highlighter here
hello oh you're reporting on the
beautiful
Community y I'm here
listening it's 2.3 okay I'm going to jot
that down so 2.3% of them with a Neo tag
in their Twitter account today called
the pope a Russian
asset okay it's a repeat offense for
many of them and it's 2.3%
well the pope does show um an
impoverished understanding of the
conflict but I do think that um that's
that's a worry them calling him um a
Russian asset I recommend I recommend
unfortunately I think 30 minutes of the
naughty step for that
2.3% what can they do they can read
Aristotle um 30 minutes of Aristotle on
the nauy step for the 2.3 all right all
right thank you sorry just had to take
that call I normally don't like
interrupting our conversations I know
it's incredibly
rude
Ian even when they ens I I must have
lost truck of some point I was making
before doesn't matter we're going in
circles sufficiently that we're covering
enough even when they ostensibly have
more control us policy makers have been
unwilling to do much to stem the tide of
pro-russian propaganda since musk toova
Twitter and renamed it X the networkers
all but openly welcomed Russian
influence campaigners into its service
the platform even
hosts Kremlin Ali Neo fascists such as
Alexander
Dugan and then let's skip a sentence
x x is stre dreaming and promotion of
the taka Carlson interview and musk on
echoing of Russian talking points such
as highly specific claims about Ukraine
using uh phrasing normally employed only
by Russian officials have come in for
heavy criticism but just as damaging are
the smaller communities created around
figures like Dugan where Western users
do much to spread an anti-
Ukraine um message
M well here Ian is making a Gambit in a
conversation about um how we might um
filter and
regulate
um our public
squares um of course it's an extremely
difficult conversation because as we
just mentioned a few minutes ago we've
got this crisis of legitimacy about the
fact that these are potato chip
companies um which we're asking to
regulate better a vital Democratic space
of
ours and we're dealing with algorithms
that are untransparent
um which is also very very big problem
as a real conversation about how to make
the algorithms transparent and we're
dealing with a a a world in which each
country has its own free speech
culture German's Free Speech culture is
very different to us free speech culture
what you could um get Civic consent for
in Germany around what constitutes
responsible speech is very different to
what you could get Civic consent for in
the United
States but we may or may not come back
to Dugan
specifically yeah this despite abundant
we've skipped the paragraph now examples
of Russian narrative showing up in
Western debates There is almost no
serious discussion within governments or
among the public about how to end
Russia's information war in the
west let's skip a
bit when Western governments do address
foreign hybrid threats such as cyber
security and election interference
they're increasingly also focused on
China and insufficiently focused on
Russia
skipping a bit more any Western
vision for future peace in Ukraine and
any discussion of a return to business
as usual with Russia must be paired with
restrictions on Russian interference and
influence in Western Daily Life Ukraine
which has been actively battling Russian
influence as part of its War
uh since 2014 has already developed
approaches from which the West could
learn
first okay so we're going to get some
practical suggestions here Ukraine has
taken to heart that information is a
weapon that Russia is using against the
West as ehos Sol head of Ukraine's
Center for strategic communication
information security put it in foreign
policy the West too Ian says must
reframe Russia's disinformation
campaigns and other influences
activities in the language of
war the West too must
refrain Russia's inform disinformation
campaigns and other influence activities
in the language of
war that I think is a normatively
impeccable
proposal the trouble with it in practice
is of course that we are increasingly
seeing each other as
enemies and understanding why that's
happening is absolutely
Central and understanding how far that
is a product of malign foreign
interference is itself absolutely
Central is toxic polarization in the
west 1% a product of malign foreign
interference or
10% a product of such interference that
makes a universe of difference and
they've got to work that out together
while being engaged in this toxic
polarization being caught up in this
toxic
polarization so
um there is absolutely value in this
categorization but it also comes with
dangers
and we might as well mention that um the
shovel we have to help ourselves in this
situation is a shovel that's uh losing
trust um and so to some extent trying to
um get uh institutions to take
action here um will be effective to some
extent it'll
[Music]
be
um a a matter of digging ourselves only
deeper into a hole with that shovel
while trying to fix the hole um and
we've got to make sure it's more of the
first and less of the second but that
danger is um always there because um we
have got a crisis of trust in
institutions and we're appealing to
institutions to fix a crisis of
trust second Western policy makers must
act in concert forming a coalition
analogous to the Ramstein group that
coordinates military aid to Ukraine to
pass laws and other measures to ensure
that Russia is not able to feed its
information directly to Western citizens
through social media and here I'm
especially grateful to him because we
need experts to attend to our
informational environment and I always
want to elevate experts who
constructively making us attend to this
and attend to all the dangers the state
of our informational environment
presents um because that goes to the
heart of the challenges we face I think
on that table behind me there's a couple
copies of Peter panov's latest book also
in information Warfare so we've got to
really uh be grateful to everybody who's
helping us engage in this
constructively
although in goes on citizens should be
free to discuss any stories they
like enemy combatants should not have
the right to free speech in the
west that means that figures such as the
ALR nationalist Dugan should not be
welcome on Western social
media the
platforms should be threatened uh with
paralyzing penalties for allowing
moscow's propaganda to spread
do we legislate the Dugan
example as plenty of stuff that Dugan
says that enov itself doesn't pass an
elementary test that test is that you
can't threaten violence and Dugan has
threatened
violence
um and he had has engaged
in
um
arguably that is my view genocidal
discourse
um of
course Dugan also has a lot of
interesting things to say about the very
thing we're talking about in other words
um if you get Hillary Clinton to talk
about the crisis of trust we face in the
west and you get Dugan to talk about it
we're going to learn more about the
problems we face and the solutions we
need from Dugan than from Hillary
Clinton uh he has a very uh
much uh
Superior intuitive hold for instance on
what motivates Western citizens to give
um to give up to lose trust
than um Hillary or at least the Hillary
since since 2016 would
so um what I'll do is simply not
legislate on this because I think it
could take us into into 10 minute
conversation we have to
weigh what would happen to
Dugan um so I'm just going to go with
Ian on
this uh for the purpose of this talk
um next the US state Department's
recently released framework for
combating disinformation Falls far short
in this regard when Moscow is already
fighting its hybrid War deep inside
Western Society is restricting moscow's
access to social media portals is energ
an essentially essential Act of National
Defense the time for vague plans
investigations and reports is over it is
time to use the West Superior technical
capacity to ensure that no Russian Bots
trolls or fake accounts are able to
access x uh Facebook and other
platforms let's go on finally so there's
a third Point um of practical
application is in making Western
governments must move Beyond ineffective
factchecking to embark on a mass program
of civic education through schools
universities and public
advertising
okay
um now civic education takes very
different forms but quite certainly
civic education about negotiating the
information environment is very very
important
and though we sometimes ourselves name
that and a lot of the activity we engage
in you and I engage in um especially
here on the second channel is something
that's not too far from um an
exploration of what what our civic
education needs might be and how to take
forward steps in into them uh into
making progress on this
um
and that's of course partly a feature
the fact that here on the chat Channel
we simply throw the algorithm out of the
window um we do not have any interest in
more people watching this video that's
these videos that's been my my Approach
so far so what we've had is a
Community that's
quite limited perhaps it's worth saying
a little bit about who we are as this is
a conversation about the information
environment we got a community that's
quite quite delimited and doesn't really
grow much except when some people come
over from the main Channel and the whole
point is not reach but a a relatively
limited group of people returning and
returning and returning and returning to
the same room to have a discussion
that isn't about a particular view of
the world being pushed but about
questions being asked about how we
might look um at what's around us better
make sense of it better how we might
square truthfulness and and hopefulness
how we might go on making sense of
things making sense of the world without
being broken by it and so
on let's do a quick note about Who We
Are I suppose
so um we are in a kind of um algorithmic
ecosystem here undoubtedly undoubtedly I
mean you're just not likely to be
recommended a taka Carlson video after
me right so we are in a certain kind of
algorithmic
space in it we are
older
so um I am
42 here most of the audience is a little
older than me a slight majority is over
45 here and we have plenty of over 65s
watching this too we're mostly North
American and
European we are disproportionately
tilted toward having degrees and quite a
few of you have
phds very disproportionate percentage
especially for the for the second
channel here um that's true we take the
climate crisis very seriously and we're
broadly enormously sympathetic to
Ukraine and indeed
preponderantly conscious that um we are
currently in the kind of strategic
stasis when it comes to Russia's brutal
invasion of
Ukraine so it says a little bit about
where we're at um so we're a very
particular group you you're not
representative of uh everyone in your
Society you're not representative of the
majority of people in your society and
in this algorithmic bubble you clearly
going to be uh protected from exposure
to certain things and you're going to
over index on exposure to certain other
things blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah a little bit about us as
the as the group extends the the repeat
audience on the main Channel perhaps is
is quite a bit bigger historically maybe
toward a quarter million and then that
even out and more people of various
kinds come in but what I've described is
the core audience the few tens of
thousands keep coming back and coming
back let's go on civic education for
Ian okay such a program should
relentlessly emphasize the threat that
Russia's interference
poses clearly label it as an ongoing war
and give it the public tools um um and
and give the public tools for
understanding and countering Russian
attacks in their varied forms but here
again we run into this problem we're
going to pull ourselves out of the water
without having anything to hold on to
because we're
ourselves in a toxic conflict about what
constitutes and what does not constitute
Russian influence in our society and
this is weaponized right that's to say
um people
on a side that in many ways we might
find sympathetics themselves also
weaponize this right let's take an
example of somebody you you
overwhelmingly admire Tim Snider Tim
Snider regularly says that Russian
interference played a significant role
in swinging the election toward Trump in
2016 I do not think that is something
that one can say while in that instance
being a responsible public
intellectual
right um in part because of the
inconclusiveness of the evidence an
impact but even more importantly um you
are generating conspiracy
theories right potentially which as it
were Outsource organic domestic conflict
as though it were preponderantly a
product of malign foreign
interference that by deepening the
crisis of
trust thereby deepening the
polarization and thereby treating the
crisis of agency that many voters are
experiencing as though it were a product
either of malign fore interference or
irrationality that's the risk right
that's the risk and so we're all in
danger of instrumentalization and
mobilization of this right so how do we
transcend this
one approach might be to um focus not on
Russia's attack on us which is
absolutely real in civic education but
on how to negotiate the information
environment no matter who is attacking
us right we're not necessarily
contradicting what the has
written a recent Canadian government
campaign was a good start but frame
disinformation as a vague threat that
hides well rather than exposing it as
the tool of a foreign government
attacking Western societies it's very
important I think to Ian to say no no we
got to name it as the Russians we've got
to see exactly what the Russians are
doing what it looks like and and we
should you know get better at seeing it
when it's there in broad
daylight Ukraine's program of anti-
disinformation education has proved
robust and could serve as a model of
course some Western citizens could still
choose to access Russian propaganda
through non-western
Services um a truly bold government
would respond to the Russian threat not
just defensively but in kind by flooding
pro-russian Channels with on telegram
with Western messaging and establishing
other channels that that subtly spread
anti-russian narratives I think Ian is
actually making a very important Point
here we're not doing this part of the
reason we're not doing this is that we
still talk about this conflict between
democracy and authoritarianism but we
kind of realized that as the post 1989
Global orders melting
down we made a video about this on the
main Channel
um we're becoming shy to talk about it
in terms of a battle between
authoritarianism and democracy and
indeed in many ways shy for good reasons
it's not it's often naive to to still
conceive the world in that way
um I
and we're uncomfortable to do some of
what they're doing to us to them and we
haven't even conceived of what that
would look
like um but I think conceiving what it
would look like in practice right and
flooding their information the
environment is very important and we can
start here with something that's a
little bit less High futin a little bit
less U pompous than this conflict
between authoritarian authoritarianism
and democracy by asking a very basic
question is there any human on earth for
whom
democracy and the modum of political
Liberty that comes with is inappropriate
as a social form and my answer to that
would be no right then we start start
building from that Ian when Russia
invaded Crimea in 2014 the Kremlin spent
millions of dollars in trolls to spread
its messaging
online um for Putin the money was well
spent since then Russia's approach has
been constantly refined reaching deeply
into electoral processes and public
debate ultimately affecting decisions
about how and whether to Aid
Ukraine but we need to assess impact
right not just um how much they tried
and how much commotion they generated
yet Western policy makers have still let
themselves be caught on the back foot
because they either do not or will not
confront the reality the kmin is waging
a war on the West in which all citizens
are already a part resolving this
problem will require bold and
potentially unpopular action so
here unpopular action
raises uh an alarm because one of the
things that we do not want to do um is
deepen the crisis of trust we are in
while trying to solve it um and we would
deepen the crisis of trust if we were
they sensious and simply told citizens
who are misinformed to shut up and to
RSE up because that political
asphixiation they're feeling we would
treat as simple error or simple sort of
um naive immersion in Enterprises of
Mali forign interference not a product
of an overwhelmingly domestic crisis of
trust right so we need to balance the
domestic crisis of trust that we're
somewhat drowning in with these
genuinely d
dangerous uh ongoing Enterprises of
interference let's make no mistake about
this since 2014 it is essentially been
the proper policy of the Kremlin to
destabilize
um
um Western democracies and I think
there's a paragraph here from Ian which
either I haven't
read or I've read forgotten let's read
it again in case I didn't read
it um in fact we may have missed it so
let's do it as we enter the third year
sorry to go back but this is really
important the third year of Russia's
attempt to conquer Ukraine has become
apparent that the Kremlin information
war is fully integrated into the
military one some of that is aimed at
Ukraine with Russian disinformation
campaigns attempting to sew distrust
there but for the crumlin information
war against the West is key Ian
continues that's because Putin's theory
of victory in Ukraine runs through
Western
capitals and of course you know that I
deeply agree with that analysis if you
if you're regular here if Western
support can be under minded over time KF
will lack the weapons and resources to
keep fighting the war over Western
opinions therefore at least as
existential for Putin as the fight on
the ground Ukraine Putin's theory of
Victory is Western Decline and Putin's
view of Western Decline and quite
frankly the view of the Kovalchuk
Brothers the view of patf the view of a
handful plus of people around Putin is
that is a kind of anti fuk is a kind of
fukami anism in Reverse as I call it
that's to say they don't just think that
we have a crisis of trust and Democratic
decline as I in historical terms
outline they believe that we are facing
imminent Democratic collapse inexorably
so and that's because um history can't
sustain the shade that um we are trying
to insist um uh on being a genuine
political Enterprise that's to say all
of our fluff about democracy is just
going to be washed away by history it's
not real it's ephemeral so Western
Democratic collapse is inevitable and
it's a matter of time so they see see
our decline not as a genuine crisis
which it is but as a kind of almost you
know historically theological Dogma yeah
so that that's why I think Ian is saying
something really important and true when
he says um that their theory of Victory
runs through our
capitals final remark from Ian as Ai and
other Technologies make the
dissemination of messaging to West nans
even easier this is going to get worse
it's time for Western governments to act
otherwise Moscow will we're not only
militar but a
hybrid uh uh War as well right Moscow
will win not only a military war in
Ukraine but a hybrid one across the
West so let me make one final remark
that might be not as Central as the
other things I've said um rather than
just repeating all the little
interventions I made and that might be a
remark about algorithmic
thought um algorithmic thought is when
what we react to
is and this is also an important part of
civic education is when we react to not
the meaning of what's said but to the
surface of it and to the signals that
come with it
so um we hear the word Nal our reaction
is Assange we hear the word Naval our
reaction is
sandwich
um and we are reacting to
slogans with
slogans and are
ourselves in this sort of
rather
binary
Dynamic um that mirrors the workings of
the current algorithms on social media
platforms
um and
that
is destructive upon free thought
nobody with a very few exceptions of
people in weird jobs sometimes it might
be true of philosophers nobody has a
duty to think originally but we all have
a duty to
think um for ourselves and to think
freely as as much as we can and the
algorithm ification of thought right is
a
danger
that um threatens us and we've got to be
careful about it because of course we
are easily persuaded that the best way
to um react to the ghastly cremling
algorithm ification of thought you know
somebody mentions Ukraine and then the
phrase comes out where were you eight
years in the in you know um in the
donbass um when eight years of bombing
in the donbass um and that is so um of
repeated in the
Russian um propaganda space that they
often even get the the the words and the
syllables of the word the wrong way
around because it said so quickly
um we don't want to do that as elves and
one way in which a lot of us have
persuaded ourselves um to take on
Russian um propaganda is to ourselves
engage in various sort of Al
algorithmic uh uh uh
sloganizer
that um
are of questionable efficacy and above
all are not democ
atically uh substantial right so um we
don't want to
debunk um vile untruthful slogans with
other slogans which might be less
untruthful and less vile what we want is
to um engage in a way that is conducive
to a public conversation that involves
all of us that keeps as many Western
citizens at the table as possible
and that invites us to some microscopic
bits of progress in the realm
of imagination and strategic thought to
what the um challenges we face so just
an inarticulate micro Rand from me here
on the dangers of algorithmic thought
but the core of what we've talked about
here
is Ian's very important warning about
the dangers to our information
environment and my addition of a
footnote of importance here which is
that um the crisis of disinformation is
deep
down to a large extent at least
reducible to an organic crisis of trust
that's threatening our democracies which
quite certainly to whatever extent um we
still need to debate the criminal is
trying to
exploit lots of
and uh congratulations if you survived
um this session bye-bye for now
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