Micah White on The National with Wendy Mesley discussing The End of Protest

Summary

In this interview, Michael White, the initiator behind the Occupy Wall Street movement, discusses the movement's roots in Canada and its evolution. He critically examines the effectiveness of traditional protest methods and suggests that modern activism needs innovation. White's new book, 'The End of Protests: A New Playbook for Revolution,' proposes a shift from disruptive demonstrations to building social movements capable of winning political power, as seen in Spain with the rise of the political party Podemos.

Takeaways

• 📢 The Occupy Wall Street movement began as a protest against economic inequality and quickly spread globally, representing the 99% against the wealthy 1%.
• 🌱 The idea for Occupy Wall Street originated from the Canadian anti-consumerist magazine Adbusters, with Michael White being instrumental in its inception.
• 🔮 The initial goal of Occupy Wall Street was to get money out of politics, but the movement was leaderless and participants struggled to articulate a single demand.
• 💡 Michael White believes that despite its shortcomings, Occupy Wall Street was a 'constructive failure' that raised awareness about income inequality and inspired other movements.
• 🚫 White criticizes the traditional methods of protest, suggesting that mass marches and online petitions are no longer effective in bringing about change.
• 🛑 He argues that the Black Lives Matter movement learned the wrong lesson from Occupy's failure, focusing too much on disruption rather than gaining control over institutions like the police.
• 🌐 White suggests that social movements should aim to win power, citing the example of Podemos in Spain, which evolved from a social movement into a political party that wins elections.
• 📈 He proposes a new approach to activism that involves building social movements capable of influencing elections and gaining political power, rather than relying on traditional protests.
• 🤔 White reflects on the role of individuals like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, suggesting that while they represent a desire for change, the focus should be on decentralized social movements rather than singular leaders.
• 🚀 He admires the 'risk it all' attitude of figures like Donald Trump and believes activists should adopt a similar mindset to achieve real change through social movements.
• 🌟 The interview concludes with White's vision of a future where social movements can lead to the 99% governing the world, emphasizing the need for innovation in activism.

Q & A

What was the primary goal of the Occupy Wall Street movement according to its initiators?

The primary goal of the Occupy Wall Street movement, as initiated by Adbusters, was to get money out of politics.

How did the Occupy Wall Street movement spread globally?

The movement quickly spread to 82 countries around the globe, resonating with the sentiment of the 99% against the wealthy 1%.

What does Michael White believe is broken about modern protests?

Michael White believes that the current model of protest is broken, as mass marches no longer effectively bring about real change.

What is the title of Michael White's new book, and what does it propose?

The title of Michael White's new book is 'The End of Protests: A New Playbook for Revolution,' which proposes new strategies for achieving social change.

How does Michael White view the effectiveness of the Black Lives Matter movement?

While supportive of Black Lives Matter, White offers criticism, suggesting that the movement may have learned the wrong lesson from Occupy Wall Street and should focus on gaining control over institutions like the police.

What does Michael White suggest is the future of social movements?

White suggests that the future of social movements lies in building political parties that can win elections, as seen with the rise of Podemos in Spain.

What is Michael White's stance on the use of online petitions in activism?

White is critical of online petitions, viewing them as easy gestures that do not effectively translate into real social change and may lead to a loss of hope in activism.

What does Michael White propose as a new approach to activism instead of traditional marches and petitions?

White proposes that activists should innovate and adopt new strategies, such as forming social movements that can influence elections and gain political power.

How does Michael White evaluate the Occupy Wall Street movement in terms of its success?

White considers Occupy Wall Street a 'constructive failure' because, while it did not achieve its primary goal, it did raise awareness about income inequality and inspired new movements.

What does Michael White think about the role of individuals like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders in social change?

White sees both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders as symptoms of the public's desire for social change but criticizes the reliance on singular individuals rather than decentralized social movements.

What is the key message of Michael White's book in terms of achieving social change?

The key message of White's book is that activists need to move beyond traditional protest methods and adopt new, more sophisticated strategies to gain political power and effect real change.

Outlines

00:00

📢 The Origins and Impact of Occupy Wall Street

The first paragraph delves into the birth of the Occupy Wall Street movement, which began as a protest against economic inequality in New York's financial district and quickly spread globally. It highlights the role of Canadian magazine Adbusters and its editor Michael White in initiating the movement. The discussion centers on the movement's initial goal of removing money from politics and its evolution into a leaderless movement with participants defining their demands. Despite its constructive failure in achieving its primary objectives, Occupy Wall Street is credited with raising awareness about income inequality and inspiring subsequent movements, such as Black Lives Matter. The paragraph concludes with White's critique of traditional protest methods and his belief that activism needs innovation for effective social change.

05:00

🔍 Critique of Traditional Activism and the Need for Innovation

In the second paragraph, the conversation with Michael White continues, focusing on his critical view of conventional protest methods like mass marches and online petitions. White argues that these methods have become ineffective and do not lead to substantial change. He emphasizes the need for activists to adopt new strategies and become more sophisticated in their approach to social change. The paragraph also touches on the Black Lives Matter movement and the idea that it should aim to gain control over the police force to prevent violence against black individuals. White suggests that social movements should aim to win elections and gain political power, citing the rise of the political party 'Podemos' in Spain as an example of a successful transition from a social movement to a political force.

10:01

🌟 The Vision for a New Era of Activism and Political Power

The final paragraph wraps up the interview with Michael White, discussing his vision for the future of activism. He envisions a world where the 99% could potentially govern, emphasizing the need for a global social movement to address global challenges. White criticizes the reliance on singular individuals for change and advocates for decentralized social movements that empower people. He also appreciates the risk-taking attitude of figures like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, suggesting that activists should adopt a similar boldness. The paragraph concludes with White's belief in the potential for social movements to influence elections and gain power, rather than merely influencing politicians.

Keywords

💡Occupy Wall Street

Occupy Wall Street refers to a protest movement that began in New York's financial district in 2011, with the aim of addressing economic inequality and challenging the influence of the wealthy 1%. The movement spread globally and became a symbol of the 99%'s discontent. In the script, it is mentioned as the starting point of a larger conversation about the effectiveness of protest movements and their ability to bring about social change.

💡Economic Inequality

Economic inequality is the disparity in the distribution of income and wealth among different social classes. It is a central theme in the video, as the Occupy Wall Street movement was a response to this issue. The script discusses how the movement aimed to give voice to the 99% against the wealthy 1%, highlighting the growing gap between the rich and the poor.

💡Activism

Activism is the practice of actively advocating for, opposing, or working towards social, political, or economic change. The video script discusses the evolution of activism, with the speaker, Michael White, critiquing traditional forms of protest and advocating for new strategies to achieve real change.

💡Adbusters

Adbusters is a Canadian anti-consumerist magazine that played a significant role in the inception of the Occupy Wall Street movement. The script mentions that the first Occupy Wall Street tweet was sent from the Adbusters account, emphasizing the magazine's influence in sparking the movement.

💡Protest Movement

A protest movement is a group of people who come together to express their objections to a particular policy, decision, or situation. The video script uses the Occupy Wall Street movement as an example of a protest movement and discusses its impact, as well as the limitations and failures of such movements.

💡Constructive Failure

Constructive failure refers to a situation where a project or initiative does not achieve its intended goals but still provides valuable lessons or insights. In the script, Michael White describes Occupy Wall Street as a 'constructive failure' because, despite not achieving its primary goal, it led to a new generation of activists and changed the discourse around income inequality.

💡Black Lives Matter

Black Lives Matter is a movement advocating for the recognition of systemic racism and the promotion of equality for Black individuals. The script mentions this movement as one that was inspired by Occupy Wall Street and discusses the need for it to evolve beyond traditional protest tactics to achieve its goals.

💡Social Change

Social change refers to shifts in societal structures, values, or behaviors that can result from collective action or movements. The video script explores the concept of social change, questioning the effectiveness of traditional activism and suggesting that new approaches are needed to bring about meaningful transformation.

💡Online Petitions

Online petitions are digital platforms where people can sign to show support for a cause or demand change. The script criticizes online petitions as being superficial and not leading to substantial change, suggesting that they are more about making individuals feel involved rather than effecting real-world outcomes.

💡Activist Community

The activist community consists of individuals and groups who are engaged in activism, often advocating for social, political, or environmental causes. The script discusses the challenges faced by the activist community, including the need to innovate and move beyond traditional protest methods.

💡Risk-Taking

Risk-taking in the context of activism refers to the willingness to adopt unconventional or bold strategies to achieve goals. The script contrasts the risk-taking attitude of Donald Trump with the more cautious approach of Bernie Sanders, suggesting that a willingness to take risks is necessary for effective activism.

Highlights

The Occupy Wall Street movement began as a protest against economic inequality and quickly spread globally, highlighting the discontent of the '99%' with the '1%'.

Despite its global impact, Occupy Wall Street is considered an American phenomenon with roots in Canada, initiated by the magazine Adbusters.

Michael White, associated with Adbusters, played a key role in the first Occupy Wall Street tweet, indicating the movement's origin.

Adbusters and White's initial goal for Occupy Wall Street was to remove money from politics, emphasizing a leaderless movement allowing participants to define demands.

The Occupy movement is criticized for lacking a clear message, but its core was to address the influence of money in politics.

White views Occupy as a 'constructive failure' that achieved some goals like raising awareness about income inequality but did not remove money from politics.

The failure of Occupy taught activists that traditional theories of social change may not be effective, necessitating new approaches.

White suggests that the Black Lives Matter movement learned the wrong lesson from Occupy, focusing on disruption rather than gaining sovereignty over institutions like the police.

Critique of traditional protests and marches, suggesting they are no longer effective in driving social change.

Online petitions are criticized for being easy gestures that may not lead to substantial change, questioning their impact on activism.

The need for activists to innovate and adopt more sophisticated strategies for social change, moving beyond traditional protest methods.

The rise of political parties from social movements, like 'Podemos' in Spain, as a new model for achieving power through elections.

The idea of creating social movements that can influence multiple elections across countries to carry out a unified geopolitical agenda.

Cultivating leaders from within social movements rather than relying on singular political figures to enact change.

The importance of taking risks in activism, as demonstrated by figures like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, and the need for a similar risk-taking attitude in social movements.

The potential for social movements to gain power and influence elections, leading to a world where the '99%' could govern.

Transcripts

Oh straights occupy wallstreet erupted

as a protest movement in New York's

financial district activists took to the

streets speaking out against economic

inequality the movement quickly spread

to 82 countries around the globe fitting

the so called

99% against the wealthy 1% but back in

New York authorities eventually moved in

and shut things down at its core occupy

is considered an American phenomenon but

those seeds of discontent were first

planted in Canada the very first Occupy

Wall Street tweet sent out in July 2011

came from the account of Canadian

magazine Adbusters the man behind that

tweet was Michael white who used to work

at at Buster's today White has a

different view on the movement he says

protest is broken and mass marches no

longer work and he's got some radical

ideas on what will bring about real

change he's written all about it in his

new book the end of protests a new

playbook for revolution I sat down with

Michael White earlier in Toronto Michael

nice to meet you wonderful thank you

thanks for coming to Canada it's my

pleasure you know I think a lot of

people don't know that the Occupy

movement has its roots here were the

Canadian magazine and Busters that

you're associated with yeah what is it

about Canada that occupy that is such a

good question I mean that there is

something magical about Canada because

you know Adbusters is a Canadian

magazine based in Vancouver it's

anti-consumerist magazine and at the

time I was an editor there and that's

where the core idea of Occupy Wall

Street came from is that color the

founder of Adbusters and I were kind of

brainstorming how can we bring the

revolutionary moment to America but it

was almost a secret right that Adbusters

was behind it he wanted people to carry

on but you there was originally a goal

there was like one purpose because

occupy has since been attacked for not

having a clear message but there was one

in the beginning yeah that's right yeah

basically you know what happens if you

go back to that magical time of 2011

Adbusters at the time we said and that

one demand should be to get money out of

politics but of course the very nature

of Occupy Wall Street is that we gave it

to the participants and we said this is

a leaderless movement and so the

participants themselves had to come up

with the one demand and and very quickly

we saw that those consensus based

decision-making tactics weren't up to

the task of creating a one demand but I

think still the overall the movement was

about getting money out of politics and

and that was something that we all kind

of knew but yeah it wasn't articulated

it may be as clearly and now you've

written this book that says almost that

occupy was a failure well I think that a

complete failure right exactly I think

that occupy was a constructive failure

it wasn't a total failure occupy did

achieve a lot of beautiful things and

trained a new generation of activists

and changed the way we talk about income

inequality it you know launched new

movements like black lives matter and

this kind of stuff so it wasn't a total

failure but it was the constructive

failure in the sense that it did not

achieve the goal that it set out to

achieve it did not get money out of

politics it's not overthrow the rule of

99 of the 1% you know the 99% are no law

no have no greater political power than

they did when we started the movement

and so it was constructive because it

taught us something very important about

activism it taught us that the theory of

social change that's been underpinning

contemporary activism isn't true and

that even if you create a mass movement

like Occupy Wall Street it doesn't get

the kind of change that you want so

activists need to innovate and kind of

get a little bit more sophisticated

about how we think about social change

what do you think about the black lives

movement is that is that a successful

protest yeah I mean this is one this is

the one of the touchy areas of course

I'm black so I totally support black

lives matter but if I could give it like

you know some friendly friendly

criticism as an activist I do think that

the black lives matter learned the wrong

lesson from the failure of Occupy Wall

Street it seems to me that the lesson

that they think they've learned which is

that occupy field because it wasn't

disruptive enough and so we need to

block more traffic we need to block more

event but occupy didn't fail because we

weren't disruptive enough we did plenty

of disruption instead occupy failed

because we weren't able to kind of gain

sovereignty you know and I think for

black lives matter the next step would

be if we want to stop police from

killing black people then we need to

become the force that controls the

police that appoints the police that is

the police and this I think is a kind of

broader a broader horizon of possibility

you're pretty critical of the the old

ways of protest of marches even there's

thing like the huge climate March right

that you distrust it that you don't

trust online petitions right so are

you'd like not very popular and the

community no I think that that's

actually really true I think that I do

think that it's that I've become kind of

unpopular an activist community because

there's this kind of desire among

activists they like to tell one story

which is nothing's ever a failure

we're actually winning you know we're

doing great and this this feels really

good

when people say this to themselves but

it doesn't help us learn anything

people have been marching in the streets

for thousand years you you say it

doesn't work anymore right don't March

don't don't protest

no not don't protest but just protest

differently

it's beholden on activists and everyday

people to kind of see that we're in one

of those moments where protest isn't

working

and to break out of it you know we can't

stay here we can't we can't stay in a

time when we just kind of go through the

rituals of marching and stuff like this

even though we really know that it's not

gonna do that what we want one of the

things that's really taken off in the

last few years is online petitions

everybody signing on right

well I think online petitions you know

there's a real danger around online

petitions which is first everyone knows

it's it's basically the most easiest

gesture you could possibly do but

there's actually something I think is

even more insidious which is that online

petitions they it's kind of activism

where people they don't trust their

instincts anymore instead what they do

is if you look at the big groups like

Avaaz they send out like a test or email

to a thousand people and then if a

certain percentage of those people open

the email and then to click the email

and then sign the petition well then

that email gets sent to everyone but you

know that kind of market testing of

revolutionary ideas just simply doesn't

work and if we had sent out an email

before Occupy Wall Street being like hey

everyone do you think this is a good

idea okay click on this link and sign

this petition frankly it would not have

flown it would not have gone anywhere

but people feel they're doing something

good yeah it makes us feel better just

like going on marches makes us feel

better but it's that you know that kind

of we need a revolution now more than

ever we face global challenges and we

need a global social movement in order

to address these challenges and so it's

it's it's dangerous to to continue to

use tactics that aren't effective

because we don't what we don't want is

for people to lose hope and in the

possibility of protest entirely because

then they become more violent so not

marches not petitions so so what I think

that the core thing to realize is that

you know if you go back to 2011 you see

what happened in Spain which is that

they've mobilized in their squares and

there was an election at that time and

they said we're not gonna engage in the

election you don't represent us and what

happened the right wing swept into power

so now fast forward to 2016 what's going

on in Spain those same activists have

launched a political party they've lost

a social movement that's actually

winning elections it's called podemos

that's really the future of revolutions

North Americans need to look and see

what's happened there and see that we

need to build social movements that can

win power which means being able to

swing elections hack elections one way

of hack collection hack elections you

know one way of thinking about it is

Occupy Wall Street started on September

17th and basically we were evicted on

November 15 but in America our elections

around November 4th or 5th so had there

been an election that year with Occupy

Wall Street raging in the squares we

would have swung things I think I can

imagine the the birth of a social

movement that arises very quickly maybe

60 days before an election in order to

dramatically influence it and then goes

to the next country that's having an

election and influences that one in

order to win elections in multiple

countries in order to carry out a

unified geopolitical agenda so instead

of influencing politicians you're

becoming a politician exactly yeah one

of the reasons why people are you gonna

run for office I don't know I don't

think that I think that it's more like

it's more about cultivating leaders from

within the movement upwards you know

rather than putting our hopes again and

someone like Donald Trump or Bernie

Sanders I mean he's a bit of a

revolutionary I do spired a lot of angry

people yeah yeah I do think that Donald

Trump and and both Bernie Sanders and

Donald Trump are symptomatic of the fact

that people in America are desperate for

social change

they're desperate at the same time as

they understand that protest in the old

models isn't working so was he a good

example of protest I think he's a

regression I think he's a regression

back to putting our hopes in these

singular individuals I think that

instead what we really need to do is put

our hopes and decentralized social

movements where the people themselves

will come into power but you know I do

think that one thing I appreciate about

Donald Trump is his risk at all attitude

I think if you contrast Donald Trump

with Bernie Sanders

you know when Donald Trump says if I

don't get the nomination there's gonna

be riots and protests in the streets

that's exactly what Bernie Sanders

should have been saying two months ago

he should have said you know what I'm

not gonna engage in this

in this Democrat this primary farce I'm

gonna have I'm gonna call for protests

on the occupier anniversary September

17th which is right around the election

we're gonna win this election with

people power in the streets and I'm

gonna be good you know but he doesn't

have the kind of I would say the risk it

all guts that the Donald Trump has so

and you admire that I do think that we

need more of that risk at all attitude I

mean if you know color and Adbusters we

had that that's why I occupy happened so

I think activists have become kind of a

lot of activism has become social

marketing you know we play it safe we're

just out there to get our ideas into lar

you know whereas what we need to do is

remember like now we're playing for

power we could actually gain power like

they're doing in Spain in Italy in other

countries that have used social

movements to win elections

the people the 99% could really be

governing the world in our lifetimes

that's the kind of like grand vision

that we're heading towards it's a really

interesting book thank you thank you so

much yeah