Wall Street Trader Reveals How to make Trading a Career
Summary
TLDRThe speaker discusses the intense regimen and sacrifices he made to reach peak trading performance, like waking up at the same time daily, not socializing, and constantly reviewing and analyzing. He notes that this level of grit and determination is unsustainable long-term without burnout. Hence he now works with a psychologist to build an optimal trading environment and culture, manage stress, and explore self-actualization. Ultimately, becoming an elite trader requires self-improvement, finding happiness in the process, and applying the psychological disciplines to all aspects of life.
Takeaways
- 😀 Success requires sacrifice - Steven gave up a high paying job out of college to rigorously train as a trader
- 👨💻 Deliberate practice over many years led to elite performance for Steven
- 📈 Steven optimized every part of his life for peak trading ability - sleep, diet, exercise, etc
- 😴 Lack of sleep knowledge 10 years ago led to suboptimal routines
- 🧠 Psychology and self-actualization became critical to Steven's development
- 👥 Having a trading psychologist helped build an elite performance office culture
- 📉 Steven advises that general trading advice rarely helps since problems are individual
- ❤️ Modern traders are wiser about burnout, sickness and rest
- ⏰ Steven admits his previous machismo approach often backfired
- 😌 Trading psychology parallels broader life lessons on happiness and fulfillment
Q & A
What did Mike sacrifice in order to focus intensely on trading and reach peak performance?
-Mike sacrificed going out, having much of a social life, and making a higher salary that he could have earned with another job. He was extremely regimented, working long hours focused only on trading with no distractions.
What mindset allowed Mike to maintain such intense focus and performance over years?
-Mike had a one-track mind and saw the long-term potential of what trading success could mean for his life. He loved it, found it intellectually engaging, and was passionate about it.
Why does Mike say most people can't sustain the level of performance and intensity he maintained?
-Mike says most people only sustain that level of focus and intensity for weeks or a couple months before burning out. But he kept it up for years because of his motivation and seeing the long-term benefits.
Where did Mike gain some of the knowledge about things like sleep, meditation, etc. that are common today but not 10 years ago?
-Mike gained much of that knowledge through extensive reading and trying to learn concepts and apply them to his trading. There was no set rulebook, so he had to experiment and figure things out himself.
What does Mike say is an example of the evolution of trading psychology over the years?
-Mike gives the example of previously pushing through sickness, sleep deprivation, etc. out of a kind of machismo attitude. Now it's accepted that you should rest when sick because it leads to better performance overall.
Why might a trader work with a psychology coach?
-Reasons could include specific trading obstacles, stress/anxiety issues affecting life, going on tilt, hyper-competitiveness, being in a slump, optimizing their environment and culture, and exploring meaning/purpose beyond just making money.
How can the self-examination involved in trading psychology carry over to benefit other areas of life?
-The skills of self-examination, discipline, systemization, and happiness from process over outcomes that make someone an excellent trader can lead to excellence and continual self-improvement in other areas of life as well.
What does Mike say is an indication that a trader has evolved to a more mature mindset?
-Mike says a sign of a more mature trader is shifting from being motivated mostly by money, fame and fortune to finding deeper fulfillment from continual self-improvement, discipline, and happiness from the process itself.
Why does Mike continue to meet with a trading psychologist even though he is not actively trading now?
-Mike continues to explore principles of self-actualization, fulfillment, and how to continually strive to be a better person, which boosts all areas of life including relationships and philanthropic pursuits beyond just trading.
What transferable skills make an excellent trader likely to succeed at most other jobs as well?
-Skills like systemization, breaking complex tasks down, discipline, process optimization, and continual learning/adaptation can lead to excellence in many jobs beyond just trading.
Outlines
😆The struggle to succeed in day trading
The first paragraph discusses the common desire for an easy path to success in day trading through simple strategies and advice. It emphasizes the need for personal effort, learning, and journey to actually achieve sustainable success. The speaker highlights the immense opportunity cost and tradeoffs required to reach elite performance in trading over years of intense focus and sacrifice.
😕Searching for definitive trading answers
The second paragraph explores the challenge of finding definitive answers to many trading questions due to differences in individual learning styles, reasons for overtrading etc. It argues effective solutions need to be tailored to the specific person rather than based on generalities. The speaker reflects on the evolving understanding of concepts like burnout and sickness in trading performance over time.
😃The ongoing value of a trading psychologist
The third paragraph examines the speaker's long-term work with a trading psychologist. Initial goals included optimizing office culture and managing people, evolving towards self-actualization. The speaker emphasizes trading psychology helps with life improvement and discipline beyond just trading. A great trader can systematize and succeed in most jobs by applying similar psychological principles.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡performance
💡psychology
💡rituals
💡sacrifice
💡journey
💡principles
💡culture
💡optimizing
💡actualization
💡microcosm
Highlights
Everyone wants the magic bullet, but you have to go through the journey yourself
I sacrificed social life to focus solely on trading
Most people can't sustain peak performance for years like I did
A decade ago concepts like sleep, meditation and working out for mental performance weren't mainstream
I learned by reading and trying to apply concepts to trade faster and better
People overtrade for different reasons - boredom, unclear edge, unset rules
I had a strict daily regimen - same wake up time, gym time, work hours
I slipped up at times but got back on track
Machismo attitude made me work when tired/sick instead of resting
Now people understand need to rest when exhausted/ill
I started working with a psychologist for office culture optimization
Psychology helps me explore life purpose beyond money
Applying trading psychology helps in all aspects of life
Initially made money but realized trading helps self-improvement
If you master trading psychology you can succeed at most jobs
Transcripts
nobody wants to do the work for
themselves everyone wants the Magic
Bullet oh give me the strategies give me
this give me all the advice I need point
and click on my mouse it's like no you
gotta go and go through the Journey
yourself and figure out on your own
I want to ask you more about just how
you're able to keep such a high level of
performance because I know it has to be
taxing and not only that but like what
do you do to maintain it too right not
only reach it but like maintain it yep
yep and it's it's like I often tweet
about like James Clear always says a lot
about this stuff like
everything in life is a trade-off
everything has an opportunity cost the
time you spend on trading you're not
spending elsewhere and so even we were
talking about my time in Princeton when
I first started and
right so while everyone was in the city
or like you know I could have gotten a
job that was like 60k 80k 100k out of
out of school and instead you take this
26k a year job and you're in Princeton
and you you're sacrificing all this
social life you're kind of living like a
small town you don't have any friends
out there and for me it was just like
this one-track mind where I just knew
like this is this is all I care about I
see what this could be in the future I
see what this could mean to my life and
like I I love this I'm passionate about
it I really find it intellectually
engaging and
so so many people like everybody wants
to succeed but it's like and they went
across like exactly could have made the
60 to 80 100 nobody wants to do the work
for themselves everyone wants the Magic
Bullet oh give me the strategies give me
this give me all the advice I need point
and click on my mouse and it's like no
you gotta go and go through the Journey
yourself and figure out on your own and
um
the cost of this stuff is is just
immense like especially
at the years when I was trying to just
reach Peak Performance like we were
talking about sleep and so during a
normal week right I was so regimented so
so regimented I would wake up at the
same exact time I would shower go to
work at the same exact time I would work
out at the same time and then even going
to bed I wasn't going out really during
the week right whereas most people would
would go out with friends or like have
have like this this social life going
out drinking happy hours for me it was
like after work you do the review you're
putting the time in you go to the gym
you eat dinner
then okay it's it's meditation it's the
the warm down for bed send out like my
evening review and everything and this
went on most people can sustain it for
like weeks or they do a couple months
and they burn out right I was doing this
for years and years and years and and it
was just like I mean the number of
Sundays I went in at least probably for
for five years straight of just look
unless I was traveling or had something
I was I was in there and people asked
like oh how did you get that good how do
you do all those things and it's like I
did I paid the dues that nobody else was
willing to pay and that stuff just
compounds right and how do you learn to
like to do like you you weren't just
like okay I'm gonna do all of this on
day one like or did you kind of like
acquire that knowledge and start to add
stuff to your regimen you know what I'm
saying how did you get all that
knowledge or did you already know and so
I think yeah I think a lot of that goes
back to the meta learning right and um
a lot of stuff that we take is obvious
today just really wasn't so obvious over
a decade ago right like even for sports
performance or any type of performance
like now there's sleep wearables and
people are tracking their sleep now
people know meditation can help focus
and like help emotional control people
know uh what working out can do for you
mentally as well and so there's all
these things
um like getting reps in like like the
concepts and talent is overrated
[Music]
um
back back in say say 2010 2011 that
stuff wasn't so obvious as it is now it
wasn't mainstream yeah and so a lot of
it was was just me just reading reading
reading and trying to learn and apply
and um
there there was no there was no rulebook
for how you do this in the in the
trading World there was no rule book for
how do you simulate reps and build up
these databases but it was just me just
taking these Concepts and thinking like
how can I apply this so that I can learn
faster or better and everything hey we
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a lot of times
people look for a right answer or but
sometimes they're just there is no known
answer to things and like people will
say like what strategy should I be
trading or on this sized account how
much how much should I be risking or how
long do I need to give trading and you
just can't speak in these generalities
because it's so many things are so
individual like people don't learn the
same way and
like like I once even tweeted about over
trading and when we go back to training
psychology and everything a lot of times
there just isn't one answer because not
everyone's over trading for the same
reason some people are over trading
because they're just bored and want
entertainment some people are over
trading because they don't know what
their Edge is some people don't have
their setups that are defined some
people are over trading uh because they
think they need to clear their expenses
every single you know every single day
you need to make x amount or else
they're not going to make it and you
can't try to give one answer when it's
not one problem right it's so um it's so
specific to the person well I want to
know like you know you had you did this
for five years or even more of just
constant like waking up at a certain
time going to bed a certain time getting
the right amount of sleep eating the
right kind of foods working out
meditating
did you ever slip and when you slip like
how did you treat like did you just like
get right back on course like the next
day like because I'm sure someone out
there is probably doing it right they're
doing something like this yeah maybe but
maybe they you know slip and they just
oh well I'm not gonna be able to do it
like did that ever happen totally yeah I
mean I was definitely human about it
like for sure I would definitely have
times where you're just demotivated or
you're just down on yourself you're just
totally totally burnt out so one thing
that I think most people are rising up
to over the last couple years especially
given kovid that again this stuff just
wasn't knowledge yeah a decade ago and I
think people are really really smart
about burnout and
I'm not saying all the work I was doing
was even optimal right there were
probably days where I should have just
been calling it quits and there were
days where I'd be sleep deprived or
tired or hungover or sick and I mean
take sickness right like nowadays
everybody knows hey if you're sick
you're not gonna perform well just don't
show up but like I would say over the
majority of my career so much of of
trading was this like machismo where
it's like
don't don't be a puss like if if you're
stuck you you go to work and you still
work hard if you're tired guess what
show up and still work hard and you
would do things that like at face value
it's like oh I I am gritty I am
determined I I'm not willing to just tap
out just because I'm tired but then
you're like wait a second like
this is this is counterproductive at
this point and and now everyone's
accepting that it's true but that's kind
of like the evolution of how being a
Trader has has changed even in those
ways you mentioned psychology just a
while ago
and I know prior to us recording and
meeting each other you mentioned when I
was coming out here fly out and meet you
that you had a meeting with your psych
uh coach yep so tell me about that like
I mean you're at such a high level right
and
why do you still do that like or did you
do that since the beginning and why is
it so important to you yep so why might
someone have a training psychologist I
think first of all for many reasons
right maybe there's some training
specific obstacles and hurdles they
can't get over
um maybe uh trading is giving them
stress or anxiety or it's affecting
their interpersonal uh relationships
maybe Traders are having issues with
fomo are going on tilt or being hyper
competitive
um or or you're in a slump and you and
you have a case of the yeps or you just
can't get back at it so I think there's
a lot of reasons why someone might use
one yeah um for me it was a lot about
really just it started off as just
office optimization right like what do I
what kind of culture do I want to build
what are the principles how can I convey
the right things to build an office of
just Elite Performance yep how can I
optimize that environment and I think a
lot of people might start working with
psychologists for reasons like that
especially a training psychologist but
then I think a lot of psychology
eventually goes towards your
self-actualization and you start to
explore what am I looking to get out of
trading what am I looking to get out of
life what am I looking to get out of my
relationships how can I just be a better
person that will all make me a better
Trader as well and and so really I
started using him to to explore just the
optimal office environment and how to
manage people and train people hiring
procedures interview questions and that
evolved into the the better question of
what am I looking for out of life and so
we still meet even though I'm not
actively trading and we explore like
like the thing things I do with
philanthropy the things I look do with
with giving back and helping Traders and
like I think most people especially as
he would say you have almost this
Evolution where initially you're you're
in it for for like the fame and fortune
maybe not the fame but at least at least
to make money and make a living out of
it and then people realize that like
trading is a microcosm just for life and
self-improvement and how can we always
strive to be better and adapt over time
and like you need discipline you need to
find happiness in the process and you
need all these really great
psychological analogies which just just
help you better for life like I think if
you can crush it as a Trader and explore
all those steps of yourself yep you put
that really good Trader at most other
jobs and they're probably going to be
able to systemize it and break that down
as well dude every time man every time
we got it I love this I love it thank
you so much for being a fan of the show
and watching to the end to give back to
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