Rick Rubin & Elon Musk Hack Their Brain Like This - Andrew Huberman
Summary
TLDRIn this wide-ranging conversation, neuroscientist Andrew Huberman discusses insights he gained while spending time with producer Rick Rubin. He noticed Rubin's habit of sitting still and thinking deeply, similar to practices by other accomplished thinkers. Huberman hypothesizes that deliberately calming the body while activating the mind can access the 'supercomputer' of our unconscious and yield creative insights. He contrasts this stillness with active movement like long runs, which also facilitate creative thought. Whether still or active, limiting external inputs allows internal ideas to emerge. Huberman shares his curiosity about how practices probing the unconscious mind may gain traction alongside meditation and rest as means of boosting creativity.
Takeaways
- 😀 Rick Rubin has a practice of spending time sitting/lying still and thinking
- 😯 Andrew Hickey's podcast provides very contextual history of rock music
- 🧠 Combining psychedelic therapy with stillness allows the mind to be very active
- 🏃♂️ Long runs/walks allow the body to be active while the mind wanders
- 💆♂️ Deliberately pairing stillness and mental activity provides unique access to creativity
- 😌 Musicians like drummers have constant inner rhythms providing creative substrate
- 📱 Overuse of phones provides sensory input that limits internal creativity
- 👂 Great ideas come from limiting external inputs and generating internal thoughts
- 🧑🔬 Combining body stillness and mental activity may access the unconscious mind
- 😴 REM sleep paralyzes the body while the mind remains very active
Q & A
What practice does Rick Rubin regularly engage in to generate ideas?
-Rick Rubin has a practice where he spends a good amount of time just sitting and thinking or lying down and thinking. This allows him to access his unconscious mind and come up with creative ideas.
What podcast does Huberman recommend for learning about the history of rock music?
-Huberman recommends the podcast 'A History of Rock Music in 500 Songs' by Andrew Hickey which provides context about what was happening in society and culture during different music eras.
What is the concept Huberman raises about divorcing mind and body function?
-Huberman talks about two contrasting states - body completely still while the mind is very active versus body being very active while the mind is more passive. He hypothesizes that deliberately entering these states can access different aspects of cognition and creativity.
What other accomplished thinkers practiced forms of divorcing mind and body function?
-According to Huberman, people like Elon Musk, physicist Richard Feynman, Einstein and psychiatrist Carl Hart also practiced forms of body stillness while the mind was active to generate ideas.
What role does Huberman believe the unconscious mind plays in creative thinking?
-Huberman cites psychiatrist Paul Conti's concept of the unconscious as the 'supercomputer of the brain'. He believes these mind/body separation practices allow greater access between the conscious and unconscious, allowing more creative ideas to emerge.
What critique does Huberman make regarding phone/computer use and creativity?
-Huberman argues that while phone use keeps the body still and mind active, all the input is coming from external sources. True creativity requires self-generating ideas internally and limiting outside sensory inputs.
What example does Huberman give of rhythmic activities aiding creative thinking?
-Huberman discusses how his friend, musician Tim Armstrong, is constantly tuned into rhythms which allows him to always noodle on song ideas in his head. Rhythmic activities like this free up mental space for creativity.
What practice is Huberman now personally engaging in?
-Huberman has started a daily practice of sitting still for 20 minutes with eyes closed, letting his mind think linearly about topics or generate ideas more spontaneously to access his unconscious.
What is the potential Huberman sees for using psychedelics therapeutically?
-Huberman believes psychedelics like psilocybin could be a reliable avenue for entering these mind/body separation states and accessing unconscious creative cognition, but only in an approved clinical context.
What is Huberman's main hypothesis about these practices?
-The key hypothesis is finding ways to deliberately limit sensory input while keeping the mind active allows accessing deeper levels of cognition and creativity from one's own unconscious.
Outlines
😊 Discussing the value of stilling the body and activating the mind
Paragraph 1 discusses the practice of stilling the body and activating the mind, which Andrew has observed smart people like Rick Rubin, Carl di Roth, Elon Musk, and Richard Feynman do in different ways. He describes an example of noticing Rick doing a form of this during their vacation. Andrew sees value in contrasting this still body/active mind state with the opposite active body/less directed mind state achieved during exercise.
💡 Hypothesizing connections between stillness, unconscious cognition, and creativity
Paragraph 2 puts forth an hypothesis that bringing the body into stillness, like in REM sleep or deliberate thoughtful states, allows the unconscious mind to engage more in our mental dialogue and lead to new ideas and ways of structuring thoughts. Andrew cites respected figures like Paul Kati to lend credence to the notion that the unconscious is a supercomputer and stillness permits greater access.
😃 Comparing methods for achieving productive mind states
Paragraph 3 draws comparisons between different methods that can achieve productive mind states conducive to creativity - such as psilocybin, meditation, walking, rhythmic movement, and limiting external stimuli. It highlights musicians' constant internal rhythms as a substrate of creative work. Andrew reflects on how phones provide raw creative materials but limit self-generated ideation.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡REM sleep
💡stillness
💡unconscious mind
💡cognition
💡psychedelic therapy
💡sensory input
💡linear thinking
💡flotation tanks
💡addiction
💡creativity
Highlights
Rick Rubin has a practice of spending time sitting and thinking or lying down and thinking
Elon Musk, Richard Feynman, Einstein, and others have practiced forms of divorcing mind and body function temporarily and deliberately
Two interesting mind-body states - body still, mind active vs body active, mind not directed
The unconscious mind can take over more of the mind-body dialogue when the body is still
Deliberate stillness can access different aspects of unconscious and cognition
Paul Kti says the unconscious is the supercomputer of the brain
Predicting rise in prominence of body still, mind active states for creativity
20 minutes a day of eyes closed sitting and thinking without external inputs
Great ideas have also come from walking and thinking
Musicians are often in a rhythmic headspace which may relate
Creativity comes from limiting sensory input and generating ideas internally
First significant highlight text
Second notable highlight text
Transcripts
this is why I'm such a fan of taking
some space from all action this is
actually something I learned from Rick
Ruben um you know I'm fortunate to call
him a close friend we we communicate
pretty much every day and I went and
spent a week with him abroad this summer
it was the worst time to travel and I
decided to go over to where he was in
Europe and just spend the week with him
we had no plan and um uh first of all on
the way over there there was nothing to
watch on the plane but there was this
Tom Petty documentary I turn it on I'm
not a huge Tom Petty fan but it was
interesting enough and then Rick Rick is
in the documentary and he's in the
documentary lying down doing the
interview typical like typical meaning
unusual for most people typical because
it's unusual for Rick to be lying down
um and I thought okay so get there I I
know his family well and I love them and
and it was really wonderful it was
beautiful it's a beautiful part of
Europe but you know I noticed so we had
this habit of of we would tread water in
the pool and listen to podcasts in the
morning um um and there's a wonderful
podcast by the way that uh we should all
be aware of I think is a history of rock
and roll in 500 songs by Andrew hickey
super nerdy it's like a getting a like a
graduate degree in rock and roll it
talks about the music but also what's
happening in like organized crime how it
impacted record sales very contextual
very cool I'm very into that lately and
I'm and this show on Netflix have you
seen Spy Ops yes which is very good
right because it's not just like shoot
them up type stuff it's it's really
about how spy operations uh let me put
it this way it can teach you a lot about
history International history and and um
geopolitical history um so um I go over
there and we do some Treading Water
listening to um podcasts I learn about
this history of of rock and roll in 500
songs podcast um we talk about a little
bit and then I noticed that you know
Rick has a practice I hope he doesn't
mind me sharing this um because I'm
about to um you know Rick has a practice
he has many practices but one of them is
he'll spend a good amount of time you
just sitting and thinking or lying down
and thinking and I it didn't occur to me
at the time
but later after I returned I thought
back to our first guest episode of my
podcast I host a guy named Carl di Roth
who's probably the the finest
bioengineer on the planet he's also a
fully active clinician psychiatrist he's
got five children he's one of these
phenoms you know that seems to be able
to do everything he's a true genius um
he went to school with uh Medical petera
and Paul kti they were all in the same
class yeah um and I know him very well
he's a colleague of mine at Stanford and
um and everyone knows he's he's a super
he's a super he's like the Michael
Jordan of Neuroscience um except he's
still active um and that is not a
statement about personality just in
terms of of successful hit rate and Carl
described a practice that he does after
he puts his kids to sleep of where he
sits deliberately sits completely still
and forces himself to think in complete
sentences and this set off a light in my
head when I realize Rick does a form of
this and Carl does a form of this if you
read the new Elon Musk book they talk
about Elon doing a form of this the
Great Richard feeman physicist Nobel
Prize winner talked about going into
flotation tanks and doing a form of this
Einstein did a form of this so what are
we talking about so I'm a neuroscientist
but I'm certainly not smart as any of
those
guys what we're talking about is body
still mind active now I've become in
increasingly curious about psychedelic
therapies um one of which is and by the
way only in a clinical context Etc
legality Etc not in kids Etc but the
practice is essentially um macro doil
ayin but with the eye mask on completely
still mind very active Okay contrast
that to a different Behavior SL protocol
that I'm very familiar with which is I
like to to do long runs or rocks on
Sunday body very active mind not
directed at anything in particular
sometimes I'll do it without a book or
podcast sometimes they do it with a
combination of
both many people talk about swimming or
in the shower or um cycling some sort of
rhythmic movement drumming the great Joe
Strummer was really big on campfires he
you know I was going to mention this
earlier but I'll mention it now that as
an alternative to alcohol consumption
get your friends together around a fire
by the way the fire light this light
from fire does not disrupt the Circadian
system this has actually been shown
candle light Moonlight fire light as
bright as it is it's just very low Lux
so that's where great things happen
independent of alcohol right around a
campfire that's it goes way back in our
lineage so there these two states of
mind and body that I find fascinating to
the point of being intriguing to the
point of having modified what I do now
because they they are the inverse of one
another body completely still or close
to completely still mind very active
could be wasil cybin but that's not the
protocol I'm recommending I'm talking
about some very very smart extremely
accomplished people who all did the same
thing the other is body very active mind
isn't still but is not deliberately um
channeled to any particular linear kind
of story or something like
that there's a state in sleep where our
body is literally paralyzed and the
brain is extremely active it's called
rapid eye movement sleep so I'm s of
raising a FL for this potential protocol
practice I don't have any peer-reviewed
science to support what I'm about to say
but I have enough examples of extremely
accomplished people now in front of me
to realize that there's something
special about divorcing mind and body
function temporarily deliberately
sitting there and just thinking and
recently I had a conversation with the
great Paul kti and the addition of the
words the great in front of him are
appropriate here he's I I believe based
on my observation of his clinical work
and and uh intellectual Acumen that he's
the finest psychiatrist of our age
clearly integrating from so many
backgrounds has worked with a ton of
interesting people coming on the podcast
in December amazing I and he's just
phenomenal right um not just about
trauma but about everything personality
types narcissism gaslighting I mean
people throw those terms around like
crazy proba will tell you what it
actually means okay what those terms
actually mean but the ability to think
and to access the unconscious Paul
refers to the unconscious as the
supercomputer of the brain for the UN
the unconscious mind and the conscious
mind are always in a dialogue but here's
the theory here's the the hypothesis
that when we bring our body into states
of Stillness in REM sleep in these
deliberate states that I just described
that these other people actively engage
in and have for a long time that the
unconscious mind can start to take over
a larger percentage of that conversation
and we have access to new ideas new ways
of structuring thought Etc and I don't
think one require psilocybin to do it
but I do think that is one Avenue into
it reliable um that's reliable it also
carries certain hazards right uh because
it's it's like being put on a mental
rocket ship to some extent it's not like
DMT but um very little control over
where one's cognition goes although
there is some in there um anyway I just
wanted to throw this up on the wall
because it's always fun to talk about
new things and kind of what's coming
what I think is coming next I think if I
were to make a prediction I think in the
next two years you're not just going to
hear about meditation non sleep deep
rest um something I'm a big fan of Yoga
Nidra hypnosis but also whatever we want
to call this you'll probably come up
with a better name than I can body still
mind active states to access different
aspects of our unconscious and cognition
and I must say that we do this with the
phone sorry I just uh because I realized
you were about to say something and when
you speak you say interesting things and
I learned cosplay laring Lear don't put
those ones as the most interesting oh no
you say many no there's no well in terms
of new terms new terms yeah yeah
Newcastle yeah sorry those weren't the
most Concepts I but I'm learning is the
point I wasn't I wasn't being sarcastic
um that when we sit and we're just
scrolling yeah we're we're we're more or
less body still mind active but guess
what none of it's coming from within
it's all coming from the outside so
whether or not it's Sil cybin in the IM
ask or or Carl sitting their eyes closed
deliberately still thinking or Fineman
in the in the salt equilibration chamber
you know the the float flotation tank or
or Rick lying there thinking whatever it
is he happens to be thinking whatever
amazing album he's going to now you know
help produce more Einstein I
mean you know we can think of the phone
and the scrolling as as lending itself
to less ability to focus in ADH but just
the real crime the real insult to
humanity for me made the real cost is
what about all the creative imagination
of things that come from inside that
could be generated by by people in that
time so I I'm I've started doing a
practice of 20 minutes a day of just
sitting and eyes closed typically
sometimes it's right as I wake up but
usually it's not and just trying to
think about certain topics and hold
those topics in a kind of a linear way
or sometimes just letting stuff geyser
up anyway um some people might think of
this as like completely um wacko Woo new
Agy stuff but the list of names I I read
off there people that do that and have
been doing this for a long time and
attribute this practice as one of the
major sources of their best ideas is a a
non-trivial list when I think about that
there's a few different ways that are
slightly similar uh the number of people
who've had great ideas whilst walking
and attribute an awful lot of their
success to walking and thinking I that
you're talking body still mind active
but it's like body mostly still it's not
exactly like or or perhaps there is a
unique way to access this too maybe it's
a different channel to a different brain
State maybe it's a different channel to
the same brain State like I love doing
long rocks and long runs on Sunday
that's my goal on Sunday get out as much
as possible into the nature and just
move in some sort of repetitive way like
a mu all throwing on a ruck sack cuz
petera got me into that um sometimes
it's with other people sometimes alone
sometimes I listen to a podcast
sometimes I don't sometimes in Audi book
sometimes I don't but something about
about motor rep
ition uh so this is not sets and Reps
this is not restacking the play this is
you know minimum amount of cognition re
freeing up mental space to do other
things yeah could be on the row so again
I think different people will do it
differently I've been hanging around
with a lot of musicians lately um I've
become good friends with one of my
favorite musicians songwriters Tim
Armstrong lead singer for rancid
transplants he and Travis Barker did
transplants and you know it's it um and
you know it's clear that musicians
especially drummers but other musicians
well they're always in a rhythm in their
head there actually Tim and I the other
day we we went someplace and we walked
out he's like did you hear that like do
you hear what he's like you didn't hear
that I was like well he's like you know
they had the news on and the radio on
and you know he's so tuned into the
audio environment I'm not right I'm not
that audio um oriented more visually
oriented but you know people who have an
internal Rhythm that they're they're
they're they're noodling on something in
their head I mean this is this is the
substrate of creative work right and I
and again the phone isn't evil but the
moment you're taking in sensory input
from that includes things that have
already been creative uh excuse me
created you're yeah you could argue that
those are the macronutrients that you're
going to combine for your own creative
thing the gems in the internet so
studies scientific studies for me are
interesting things on YouTube but
there's also just the raw materials of
creative work that come from limiting
sensory input and just going inside
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