The Man Jesus Christ Created the World

Summary

In this profound dialogue, the conversation centers on the significance of the Incarnation in Christian theology, particularly its role in theosis and logos theology. The discussion explores the transformative impact of Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection, emphasizing the idea that the Incarnation is not just a pragmatic truth but a reality that unites Heaven and Earth. It delves into the narrative of Jesus as the culmination of divine participation, where the divine logos empties itself into humanity, offering a path for humans to become more like God. The cross is highlighted as a pivotal point of convergence, revealing deep mysteries of creation and the essence of reality itself, with the story of Jesus being a profound and multifaceted narrative that continually offers new insights.

Takeaways

• 😢 The emotional impact of discussing the Incarnation with Jordan Peterson, highlighting the profound significance of the concept for understanding the nature of God and humanity.
• 🛑 The Incarnation as a pivotal point in Logos Theology, suggesting that the divine became human to enable humanity to participate in the divine.
• 🕊️ The idea that the story of Jesus, particularly the crucifixion, encapsulates the convergence of heaven and earth, and the divine and human realms.
• 🌐 The challenge of conveying the reality of the Incarnation to secular audiences, emphasizing the need for a gradual introduction to the concept.
• 🔑 The Incarnation as a solution to the problem of whether human intelligence is a projection of divine intelligence or a characteristic of humans alone.
• 🌟 The role of Jesus Christ in creation, with the assertion that his crucifixion was a moment of ongoing creation, according to Orthodox theology.
• 🔍 The importance of the 'eye of the heart' as a spiritual space for encountering God, paralleled by the structure of the cosmos that points towards this convergence.
• 🎯 The narrative of Jesus as the ultimate limit story, one that is so extreme in its irony and symbolism that it could not be fabricated.
• 🛍️ The concept of sacrifice and its culmination in the cross, representing the ultimate self-emptying act of love and the revelation of the world's true workings.
• 🏆 The elevation of the lowly in Christ's ministry, reflecting the divine principle of humility and the reversal of worldly values.
• 🌊 The theological concept of humility as a source of power, with the ocean as a metaphor for God's self-emptying to receive all things back to Himself.

Q & A

What was the emotional impact of the discussion about the Incarnation on Jordan Peterson?

The discussion about the Incarnation brought Jordan Peterson to tears, as it seemed to be the missing piece that made all of his philosophical musings come together, providing a profound sense of coherence and meaning.

What is the significance of the Incarnation in Christian theology according to the transcript?

The Incarnation is the central tenet of Christian theology, signifying the belief that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ. It is seen as the recapitulation of everything into the participation of God, offering a tangible reality to the divine-human relationship.

How does the speaker suggest we approach secular people with the concept of the Incarnation?

The speaker suggests a gradual approach, starting with the story of Jesus, which is seen as the summit of the world where heaven and earth meet, and slowly leading them to understand the profound implications of the Incarnation.

What is meant by 'theosis' in the context of the discussion?

Theosis refers to the process of becoming more like God, participating in God's uncreated energies of love, compassion, truth, and beauty. It is the divine invitation for humanity to partake in the divine nature by grace.

How does the speaker describe the role of intelligence in the Incarnation?

The speaker suggests that intelligence, which is a human characteristic, is not a barrier but a bridge to understanding the divine. The Incarnation solves the problem of whether gods are projections of human intelligence by showing that the divine actually uses human intelligence to manifest in the world.

What is the 'eye of the heart' mentioned in the transcript?

The 'eye of the heart' is a spiritual concept referring to the innermost part of a person where they can encounter God. It is the point within the individual where divine revelation and personal transformation occur.

What is the importance of the Cross in the narrative of Jesus Christ?

The Cross is the central event in the story of Jesus Christ, symbolizing the ultimate sacrifice and the culmination of God's love for humanity. It is seen as the point where all divine and human realities converge, revealing the deep mysteries of creation and redemption.

How does the speaker relate the story of Jesus to the concept of irony?

The speaker discusses the irony of Jesus being crucified as the 'King of the Jews' while being rejected and humiliated by the very people he came to save. This irony is seen as a profound revelation of the divine plan, where the lowest point becomes the highest in terms of spiritual significance.

What is the 'limit story' mentioned by the speaker?

The 'limit story' refers to the narrative of Christ's life, death, and resurrection, which is seen as the ultimate story that pushes the boundaries of human understanding and categorization. It is a story that cannot be fully comprehended or replicated.

How does the speaker connect the story of Jesus to the idea of humility?

The speaker connects the story of Jesus to humility by highlighting how God, in the person of Jesus, humbled himself to the lowest point to elevate the lowly and to draw all things back to himself. This act of self-emptying is seen as the epitome of divine love and the essence of the Christian understanding of humility.

What is the theological significance of the ocean being the lowest and most powerful body of water?

The theological significance is that, like the ocean, God's humility allows all things to flow back to him. It illustrates the Christian belief that God's self-emptying love is the source of his power and the means by which all creation is drawn to him.

Outlines

00:00

😇 The Significance of the Incarnation in Logos Theology

This paragraph discusses a deep conversation about the Incarnation, the belief that God became man in Jesus Christ. It emphasizes the difficulty of conveying this concept to secular people and the importance of the story of Jesus as the culmination of divine and earthly union. The speaker highlights the transformative power of the Incarnation, suggesting that it allows humans to participate in the divine through God's uncreated energies, leading to theosis, or becoming more like God. The paragraph also touches on the role of Jesus' crucifixion as a pivotal moment in the narrative, revealing the cosmos's interconnectedness and the divine plan.

05:01

😢 The Cross: A Symbol of Sacrifice and Divine Reality

The second paragraph delves into the symbolism and significance of the cross in Christian theology. It portrays the crucifixion of Jesus as an unexpected and profound event that encapsulates the essence of reality's self-emptying nature. The speaker reflects on the irony and layered meanings behind Jesus' death, suggesting that it represents both the culmination and the resolution of sacrificial rituals. The paragraph also explores the idea that the cross reveals a deep mystery about the origin of creation, with the story of Jesus being a narrative that continually offers new insights and interpretations, challenging traditional categories and understanding.

10:01

😳 The Overwhelming Vision of Divine Reality

In the final paragraph, the narrative focuses on the overwhelming nature of divine reality as perceived through the story of Adam in the Garden of Eden. It suggests that Adam, upon partaking of the knowledge of Good and Evil, was confronted with the vision of the cross and Christ's crucifixion, which was too intense for him to comprehend. The paragraph implies that this vision represents a profound revelation about the nature of God's interaction with humanity and the world, causing Adam to react with fear and confusion. This encounter is presented as a pivotal moment that underscores the intensity and complexity of divine truth.

Keywords

💡Incarnation

Incarnation refers to the Christian belief that God became human in the person of Jesus Christ. In the video, this concept is central to understanding the theological discussion, as it represents the divine becoming part of the human experience. The script mentions the Incarnation as the 'recapitulation of everything back into the participation of God,' highlighting its significance in the narrative of Jesus and the theological implications for humanity's relationship with the divine.

💡Logos

Logos, in a Christian context, often refers to the divine reason or word of God, as seen in the Gospel of John where Jesus is called the Word made flesh. The script discusses Logos in relation to the Incarnation, suggesting that the divine Logos 'empties itself' into humanity, which is a key aspect of the Christian understanding of Jesus' life and mission.

💡Theosis

Theosis is a term from Orthodox Christianity that describes the process of becoming more like God. In the script, theosis is tied to the Incarnation, suggesting that through God's grace and engagement with divine energies, humans can participate in God's likeness. The discussion emphasizes the transformative potential of this participation for believers.

💡Crucifixion

The Crucifixion is the event in Christian theology where Jesus is executed on a cross. The script describes the Crucifixion as a 'crushing story' that encapsulates the entire cosmos and represents the ultimate revelation of God's sacrificial love. It is portrayed as a pivotal moment that brings together various theological themes and narratives.

💡Divine Love

Divine Love is the unconditional love that is attributed to God. The script touches on this concept in the context of the Incarnation and Crucifixion, suggesting that God's love is so profound that it led to the self-emptying act of becoming human and suffering on the cross for the sake of humanity.

💡Participation

Participation, in the script, refers to the Christian idea that humans can partake in the divine nature or attributes of God. This concept is integral to the discussion on the Incarnation and theosis, as it suggests that through Christ's life and sacrifice, humans are invited to share in God's own life.

💡Semiotics

Semiotics is the study of signs and symbols and their meanings. In the context of the script, semiotics is used to discuss the symbolic significance of the Crucifixion, suggesting that it is a point where various theological 'signs' converge to reveal deeper truths about God's nature and the world.

💡Metaphysics

Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that deals with the fundamental nature of reality. The script uses the term in relation to the Incarnation, suggesting that the event has profound metaphysical implications, such as the nature of intelligence and the reality of the world being shaped by divine intelligence.

💡Humility

Humility is discussed in the script as a divine attribute, particularly in the context of God's self-emptying in the Incarnation. It is also tied to the idea that the 'last will be first,' reflecting the Christian value of elevating the lowly and the marginalized, which is exemplified in Jesus' ministry to the poor and outcast.

💡Sacrifice

Sacrifice is a recurring theme in the script, particularly in relation to the Crucifixion and the broader narrative of Jesus' life. It is portrayed as a self-giving act that has its roots in the divine nature of God, who in the Incarnation, gives of Himself for the sake of humanity.

💡Limit Story

The term 'Limit Story' is used in the script to describe the narrative of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection as being at the extreme edge of what can be categorized or comprehended. It suggests that the story of Jesus pushes the boundaries of understanding and defies conventional storytelling, encapsulating profound theological truths.

Highlights

The conversation delves into the deep emotional impact of discussing the Incarnation with Jordan Peterson.

Incarnation is described as the key to understanding the participatory nature of God and the world.

The Incarnation is portrayed as the summit of the world, where heaven and earth meet.

The challenge of conveying the reality of the Incarnation to secular people is discussed.

The story of Jesus is highlighted as a powerful tool for illustrating the concept of the Incarnation.

The importance of the Incarnation in logos theology and theosis is emphasized.

Engagement with God's uncreated energies is presented as a transformative opportunity for humanity.

The Incarnation is seen as solving metaphysical questions about the nature of intelligence and the human mind.

The role of humans as intermediaries between the invisible principles and the world is explored.

The significance of the eye of the heart as a space for encountering God is mentioned.

The structure of the cosmos is likened to the structure of the human heart, pointing towards unity.

The figure of Jesus Christ is identified as the point where all cosmic and theological elements converge.

The cross is discussed as a symbol of the culmination of divine and human realities.

The paradoxical nature of the cross, embodying both humiliation and divine revelation, is highlighted.

The theological significance of humility and the role of Christ in elevating the lowly is discussed.

The story of Jesus is described as a narrative that defies conventional storytelling and challenges categories.

The cross is presented as revealing a deep mystery about the origin of creation.

Timothy Patitsas' image of Adam seeing the cross in the Tree of Life is cited as a powerful theological insight.

The conversation concludes with reflections on the profound impact of the Incarnation and the cross on understanding God's relationship with humanity.

Transcripts

you know one of the conversations I saw

you had with uh with Jordan Peterson

after

um you know some of the experiences he

had

um uh medical problems that you had a

conversation with him and he came to

tears thinking about again this

participatory and like this logo stuff

which it seems like he has his finger on

most of it but when it comes to it

literally incarnating that it was an

actual historical person that God became

a man and it's not some pragmatic truth

we live by but it's a reality

I remember you telling him that and it

brought him to tears because it's the

only thing that makes all of what he's

talking about come back together because

that's what the Incarnation is it's the

recapitulation of everything back into

the participation of God yeah and I mean

that's the hardest thing it's like it's

the hardest sell for for secular people

because

people are so ruined like we're so

ruined you know and there's a way like

the way that I tend to try to do that is

I tend to go slowly and try to point

show people the story of Jesus because

it's

you know we can say that like Jesus the

Incarnation is the is the summit of the

world right it's the place where Heaven

and Earth meet it's the place where the

Divine logos you know empties himself

into in all these terms they sound so

weird but it's it's really there in the

story right Jesus's story is a crazy

story where everything collapses and

everything is United and everything is

you know and it and it's uh it's an

amazing thing it just you just kind of

especially for secular people you just

kind of have to bring them in slowly

because the sort of the crucifixion will

just shatter you once you start to see

it like for what's actually going on in

that story it's a it's a crushing story

every it's like everything is there like

the whole Cosmos is in that story right

no I couldn't agree more

um can we speak a little bit more than

about

um the Incarnation

um and why this is so essential for this

logos Theology and for what we were

talking about theosis because we're

called to participate hate in God and by

the grace of God in the engagement with

his uncreated energies if we as created

entities which are limited can engage

with these uncreated energies of logic

and reason and love and mercy and

compassion and truth and beauty and

honor and Glory we can become more and

more like God this is the gift of God's

Incarnation this is the opportunity that

we're all called to

um you know and then the cross again we

could get into the semiotics of it being

this point in which this all this stuff

fully comes back together uh could you

speak a little bit to the importance of

the Incarnation regards to all this

logos theology

I mean the Incarnation is the key

and it's a key it really is a key it's a

key in terms of story it's a key in

terms of understanding because one of

the things for example like even if you

take Union Union ideas right there's a

sense in which we have this problem

which is that

you know intelligence seems to be the

seems to be the characteristics of

humans and so even in the old world they

would ask questions sometimes like are

the gods do they exist are there project

are there a projection of us like a

projection of our own psychic our

psychic uh thoughts and our own

structures of mind you know and so

there's actually a legitimate concern

about that a legitimate question but

that gets solved in the Incarnation

because it's it's in some ways you could

say

it's this is a crazy thing but it's

totally Orthodox by the way is to say

that the man Jesus Christ created the

world yes

and like say maxman says crazy things he

says you know when Christ was on the

cross he was creating the world

and so it's like yeah it's like that

that solves people don't realize just

how many problems that solves even in

terms of metaphysics and in terms of

understanding you know the nature of the

world and how we don't have to deny

the fact that intelligent categories uh

mirror through the my the human mind

it's actually not a problem it's

actually a role it's actually what we're

there for that's what God created us is

to be that intermediary that

intermediary space between the invisible

principles and the the indefinite aspect

of of the world and so but that

culminates right so it's like the whole

structure is like the structure that

points and points and points and so just

like in you let's say there's a there's

that noetic aspect

you know where it all comes together and

you have that space the eye of the heart

where you can encounter God all the

cosmos also has that same structure it's

like it points it points it points right

and then when when the figure of Jesus

Christ appears it's like that's it

that's the point that's that point where

it all comes together and it's

objectively it's objectively real in the

story you can see why it's real in the

in the way that Jesus interacts with

people what he's doing all the different

prophecies that he's kind of bringing

together towards the cross

uh but then it's the surprise man the

surprise of the Cross like what who

could have expected that right who could

and then but when it happens and you

realize that this is it like this is the

only way that it can be real and it's

what it has to do with what we talked

about in terms of the logi like reality

can only be fully real if it's

constantly emptying itself

if it's constantly empty and emptying

itself both in some ways like towards

God but then also even higher identities

always have to kind of empty themselves

to give themselves to the lower

participation right because you know you

can't have the pure cup you only have a

mitigated version of that and so the cup

gives itself right it kind of gives

itself towards its participation with

his particulars right like oh that's

what it is that's what this whole

sacrifice thing from the beginning has

been like these these people kind of

trying to figure out like why do we you

know we're sacrificing these animals

we're sacrificing people like what are

we doing you know what is this thing

we're doing

and the cross just resolved it all it's

like yeah that's actually how the world

works right the cross the cross ends

that that process in a sort of uh

profane way and brings it all back

together in a single person which

recapitulates that as as you and uh

Jordan Peterson talked about the limit

Story I mean the the story of Christ

which isn't a story it's a reality but

it's you couldn't write something that

is more to the limit of categories that

you can't you just cannot I I like I

would dare anybody to do it you could

only maybe do something similar in the

wake of the story of Jesus but right

think about think just about what's

going on like do you think about the

cross like think about

here's Jesus

innocent crucified as a criminal

on the cross with the sign above his

head that says he's the king that which

is ironic

but is not ironic ultimately it's like

this weird thing where it's like it's

irony and it's a double irony and a like

a triple irony it's as if the whole

world is being like turned in this

tumbler where you know you it all just

collapses right King of the Jews but the

Jews then are killing him for claiming

that he's or fulfilling the Prophecies

of the Old Testament and so this whole

thing and then being humiliated he's God

incarnate but then he's naked in front

of his mother I mean the whole thing is

you you literally could not write

something that was more limit in every

Dimension and I love what you're talking

about the sort of

um dissension on high to the lowly

places and that's what the logi is doing

and that's why Christ was concerned with

the prostitutes with the poor with the

sick with with the people the lowest

people of society because and that's why

the the last will be first

um you know the lowly will be elevated

this is the reality of God this is you

know I had father turbo on and he was

talking about we did a whole stream on

the Theology of humility and one of the

biggest takeaways I had on that he says

he said why why is the ocean the most

powerful body of water it's because it's

the lowest body of water yeah all other

bodies of water flow back into the ocean

that's what God is God had to Humble

himself as the Lola so that everything

can return back to him and it's like wow

that makes so much sense yeah it's it's

a no it's a

yeah the story of Jesus is just it's

just crazy it's a crazy story you know

you can never get to the end of it every

time I I go back every posca I just

especially during this uh some of the

service like especially the services of

lamentation those Services they did just

Crush you you know there's some like

there's some what is it that sentence it

says talks about Jonah kind of Jonah but

referring to Christ it says Jonah

Jonah came out of the fish as if from

the bridal chamber and it's like came

out of the monster as it came out of the

monster as if from a bridal chamber so

can you have images like that anywhere

else like this crazy contraction of like

of yeah anyways and it's weird because

then you see in scripture where he talks

about the idea that you know the lamb

that was sacrificed before the

foundation of the world and so the cross

is actually revealing something like

it's not just an answer to sin it's

revealing a very deep mystery which is

actually or very origin of of creation

itself right

um Timothy patita has a wonderful image

in his book The the uh the ethics of

beauty

where he kind of he you know he's kind

of he's speculating obviously but his

speculation is quite powerful he says

one of the things he has this image

where when Adam took the fruit of the

knowledge of Good and Evil

and he and he was able to see the tree

of life right so it's like it worked

right it's like if you take the not the

the the tree of the Naja good and evil

then then you have access to the tree of

life then when he came to the tree of

life he saw the cross and he saw Christ

on the cross and he couldn't handle it

right it was it was way too much is like

that's not what he thought he would see

there you know and that's one of the

reasons why he freaked out and covered

himself and ran away basically because

it was just too much to deal with