Indonesian FM on occupied Palestine and Indonesia democracy path | Talk to Al Jazeera
Summary
TLDRIn an interview with Al Jazeera, Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi discusses the nation's strong stance on Palestinian rights amidst the escalating Gaza conflict. Marsudi emphasizes Indonesia's commitment to international law and condemns double standards by Western countries. She highlights Indonesia's diplomatic efforts, including active participation in the International Court of Justice and dialogue with global leaders. Marsudi also addresses Indonesia's constitutional mandate for self-determination and defends its foreign policy principles, including economic diplomacy and the protection of Indonesian nationals abroad.
Takeaways
- 🌍 The world is focusing on the International Court of Justice (ICJ) due to the escalating conflict in Gaza.
- 🇮🇩 Indonesia is advocating for Palestinian rights and opposing Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories.
- 🗣️ Indonesia's constitution mandates support for the right to self-determination, influencing its stance on Palestine.
- 🛑 Indonesia emphasizes the need for consistent implementation of international law without double standards.
- 🇺🇸 Discussions with the US highlighted the importance of ceasefire and the two-state solution.
- 🕌 Indonesia, as a prominent Muslim-majority country, feels a responsibility to advocate for Palestinian rights.
- 🕊️ The ICJ case is seen as a vital step in addressing long-standing issues between Israel and Palestine.
- ⚖️ Indonesia rejects normalization with Israel without a two-state solution and continues to support Palestine.
- 💼 Indonesia's accession to the OECD is a significant step, despite challenges posed by Israel.
- 🔄 Indonesia's foreign policy has shifted towards economic diplomacy and protecting its nationals abroad.
Q & A
Why is the case at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) regarding the occupation of Palestinian territories important to Indonesia?
-Indonesia has a long-standing commitment to supporting Palestinian rights, as mandated by its constitution. The Indonesian government believes it is their duty to advocate for justice and humanity, particularly in response to the atrocities committed against Palestinians over the past 70 years.
What is the Indonesian foreign minister's stance on the implementation of international law?
-The Indonesian foreign minister emphasizes the importance of implementing international law consistently and without double standards. She criticizes the selective application of international law, particularly by Western countries, and calls for a uniform approach.
How does the Indonesian foreign minister view the role of the United States in the Palestinian conflict?
-The Indonesian foreign minister acknowledges the United States' role but expresses concern over its vetoes in the UN Security Council and the perceived double standards in its approach. She urges the U.S. to maintain its position on issues like displacement and the two-state solution.
What is Indonesia's position on normalization with Israel in relation to OECD accession?
-Indonesia's position is clear: the country will not normalize relations with Israel without the establishment of a two-state solution. The accession to the OECD is not conditional on normalization with Israel, and Indonesia remains firm in its stance.
How does Indonesia approach the concept of self-determination in the context of Papua and Maluku?
-The Indonesian foreign minister distinguishes the situation in Papua and Maluku from the Palestinian issue, emphasizing that they are entirely different cases. She implies that the historical and contextual factors make these situations incomparable.
Why hasn't Indonesia signed the Genocide Convention, and what is its position on the issue?
-Indonesia has not signed the Genocide Convention because there is no national consensus on the matter. However, Indonesia supports the moral principles behind the convention and expresses solidarity with countries like South Africa in their efforts to address genocide-related issues.
What concerns have been raised about Indonesia's democracy under President Joko Widodo?
-Concerns include the nomination of the president's son as a vice presidential candidate and the lowering of the age limit by the Constitutional Court, perceived as nepotism. There are worries about potential setbacks in democratic reforms, but the foreign minister insists that democracy is part of Indonesia's DNA.
What legacy does the Indonesian foreign minister believe she leaves after ten years in office?
-The foreign minister highlights the shift in focus towards economic diplomacy, emphasizing economic cooperation and the protection of Indonesian nationals abroad. She also mentions Indonesia's leadership roles in international forums like the G20 and ASEAN during challenging times.
How does the Indonesian foreign minister view the future of Indonesia in the global context?
-The foreign minister hopes that Indonesia will continue to play a bridging role in the global arena, advocating for collaboration and resilience amidst increasing global uncertainties and challenges.
How does the foreign minister justify Indonesia's actions at the international level concerning the Palestinian issue?
-The foreign minister asserts that Indonesia is actively involved in various international forums, advocating for Palestinian rights. She argues that Indonesia's involvement is often behind the scenes but remains significant and visible in diplomatic efforts.
Outlines
🌍 Focus Shifts to International Court Over Gaza
The global focus is turning to the International Court of Justice as over 50 nations and various international bodies convene to address the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Indonesia, a long-time advocate for Palestinian rights, is actively participating. The Indonesian government is vocal against Israel's actions, demanding a cessation of unlawful activities and policies. The Indonesian Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, emphasizes Indonesia's constitutional mandate to support self-determination and explains Indonesia's commitment to the Palestinian cause.
🇺🇸 US Double Standards on International Law
The Indonesian Foreign Minister criticizes the inconsistency in the application of international law, highlighting the double standards, especially by Western countries. She stresses the need for consistent implementation of international laws and resolutions, particularly those concerning Palestinian rights and the two-state solution. The minister recalls previous ICJ opinions ignored by Israel and emphasizes the importance of upholding international law without bias.
🇵🇸 Indonesia's Diplomatic Efforts for Palestine
Indonesia's active role in advocating for Palestinian rights at international forums, including meetings with the US Secretary of State, is highlighted. The Indonesian Foreign Minister discusses her conversations with US officials about displacement issues in Gaza and the importance of a two-state solution. Despite US vetoes on resolutions, Indonesia continues to push for a ceasefire and justice for Palestinians, maintaining its stance on supporting Palestinian independence.
🕊️ Collective Responsibility and Global Response
The Indonesian Foreign Minister underscores the need for collective global responsibility to address the Palestinian issue. She discusses Indonesia's involvement in diplomatic efforts with the Arab League and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) to seek solutions. Despite behind-the-scenes work, she insists Indonesia is highly visible in these efforts. The minister calls for consistent international action and questions why other countries do not face similar sanctions for their policies as Israel does.
📈 Indonesia's Accession to OECD and Israel's Obstruction
Indonesia's bid to join the OECD, with no preconditions despite Israel's attempts to block it, is detailed. The Indonesian Foreign Minister states that normalization with Israel will only occur upon achieving a two-state solution. The accession process is seen as a prestigious step for Indonesia, and the minister remains firm on maintaining Indonesia's foreign policy principles without compromising on the Palestinian issue.
🇮🇩 Internal Self-Determination and Global Democracy
The Indonesian Foreign Minister addresses questions about self-determination within Indonesia, distinguishing it from the Palestinian issue. She explains the ongoing process of national consensus needed for signing the Genocide Convention, supporting South Africa's case morally despite not being a party. The minister reflects on Indonesia's democratic journey, asserting democracy as part of Indonesia's DNA despite recent political challenges.
🗳️ Indonesia's Democratic Journey and Future Prospects
The discussion covers Indonesia's democratic progress, the recent nomination of the president's son, and concerns about nepotism. The Indonesian Foreign Minister affirms the commitment to democracy despite vulnerabilities and external perceptions. She reflects on her decade-long tenure, emphasizing economic diplomacy and protection of nationals abroad. Looking ahead, she hopes Indonesia continues to play a bridging role in global affairs, fostering resilience and collaboration.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡International Court of Justice (ICJ)
💡Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories
💡Indonesia
💡Palestinian rights
💡Self-determination
💡Two-state solution
💡Double standards
💡UN Security Council resolutions
💡Ceasefire
💡Veto power
💡OECD accession
💡Humanitarian crisis
Highlights
The world is now shifting its focus to the International Court of Justice regarding the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.
Indonesia, with a long track record of advocating for Palestinian rights, is at the forefront of the case.
Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi emphasizes the country's constitutional mandate to support the right to self-determination.
Marsudi highlights the importance of consistent implementation of international law without double standards.
The minister criticizes Western countries for their inconsistent application of international law.
Marsudi underscores Indonesia's commitment to the two-state solution and the necessity for the US to uphold this stance.
Indonesia will take any possible avenue to defend justice and humanity for the Palestinian people.
Marsudi mentions Indonesia's active role in diplomatic efforts, including visits to the capitals of UN Security Council's permanent members.
Indonesia's involvement in international discussions and meetings emphasizes its visibility and commitment to the Palestinian cause.
The minister discusses the importance of collective responsibility and the role of P5 countries in resolving the issue.
Indonesia's accession to the OECD and the challenges posed by Israel's opposition are addressed.
The principle of a two-state solution remains a benchmark for Indonesia's normalization with Israel.
Marsudi distinguishes between Indonesia's stance on self-determination for Palestine and internal regional issues within Indonesia.
Indonesia's delay in signing the genocide convention is due to the need for national consensus.
The minister reflects on Indonesia's commitment to democracy despite challenges and the evolving political landscape.
Transcripts
the
world I'ma FAS in the hake as the war on
Gaza escalates the world is now shifting
its focus to the international court of
justice where more than 50 Nations and
several International bodies have
converged to address the Israeli
occupation of Palestinian
territories Indonesia a country with a
long track record of advocating for
Palestinian rights is one of them its
government has spoken out against
Israel's decades long occupation and
called for international law to be
respected Israel must cease
completely
unconditionally and
immediately all of its unlawful action
and policies in the occupied Palestinian
territory as the nation makes its case
at the icj the Indonesian foreign
minister ratno masudi talks to Al
jazer Indonesia's foreign minister rno
marui thank you for talking to Al jazer
thank you for having me Indonesia is one
of the countries on the Forefront of the
case at the international court of
justice on the legality of the
occupation of the Palestinian
territories why is this case so
important to Indonesia look at what
happened in the last 70 years atrocities
brutalities killing almost every day
especially currently in in in Gaza
so the question is can we stay still M
observing this very worrying and sad
situation it is not and in Indonesia in
particular our constitution mandated
about it about the right to
self-determination so it is mandated in
our constitution in Indonesian con
Constitution so there is no other way
that
Indonesia has to be in the Forefront for
the Palestinian cause um in this case is
before the icj but we have of course
seen over the decades that the situation
hasn't improved right yeah for the
Palestinian people we have had uh an
opinion from the icj before 20 years ago
Israel has completely ignored it why do
you think this time this case will make
a
difference the situation again number
one I want to respond first about the
implementation with the of the decision
of the UN resolution and I mention it
again and again in almost every meetings
that I have including during the G20
friend ministers meeting I mentioned
about please avoid double
standard we
said we need the international law we
need to uphold it and implement it in
consistent manner so to who did you say
no double standards to all to all of us
any anyone in particular maybe the US
Secretary of State I say it to all
before the G20 meeting and Al also in
any meetings because implementing the
international law in a consistent manner
because you feel it's not happening
right now happening as you mentioned
there is a rule before of the icj it did
not I mean the application is not there
and how many un Security Council
resolution have already been adopted for
the Palestinian including the mentioning
of the two-state solution so again the
implementation is very important and I
mean so many countries saying about the
international law international law rule
base
order say it implement it in a
consistent uh Manner and that's what you
mean with double standards right you're
talking about countries like the United
States or what what other countries are
you feeling now are having a double
standard well
uh
particularly the Western countries the
quite often mention about the
international law uh rule based but
again it applies to all it applies to
all whenever we see it please also do it
in a consistent manner but not pick and
choose because if it is pick and choose
then what happened is on uh on the
Palestinian uh people is just one of the
very bad example how double standard
applies in our uh life but Indonesia has
a very close Rel relationship with the
United States right you had a meeting
also with Anthony blinkin the the US
Secretary of State in in Brazil during
the G20 meeting what kind of pressure
can you put I mean or is it the
dependency you have from the United
States that also with holds Indonesia
back because you're worried about the
relationship um I had a very good
conversation and very good um
communication with Anthony blinkin so we
had a good communication I can convey
the position of Indonesia and especially
when I was in
Brazil I mentioned about number
one why the US FedEd again the
resolution number two I mention about
how important two issues that should be
upheld by the US number one is about
displacement
because not everybody is worried about
the displacement especially on the
southern part of Gaza in
Raa so and the US uh Administration
clearly mentioned against it so I said
that please keep it but they have also
again veto the resolution just a few
days ago the dis I think the the
position of the US is very clear so
that's why I mentioned about the issue
but how do you feel about the V2 uh let
me continue on the number two that I
mentioned to uh secretary
blinkin the importance of us to keep
their position on the two-state solution
because I'm really worried about this
two-state solution and the uh government
of the uh the Prime Minister Netanyahu
already mentioned that there is no
two-state solution there is no
Palestinian solution so what about all
the decision that we have taken in the
UN which we have to respect it so I just
want to present this is the resolution
this is the decision that we have taken
which you involve in it and what we need
is to implement it but not to cut it as
if that there is nothing there is
nothing there is no resolution on the
twoed solution so what kind of response
do you get if you say this to uh to blol
for example secretary B mentioned yes uh
the US maintain the position on two
issues that I mention that is on the
displacement and on the two-state
solution but I want to ask you again how
do you respond about the veto that again
the US has has put down on on a
resolution on on a ceasefire because we
know that hundreds of people in Gaza are
dying every day yeah I convey my
position that the ceasefire is very
important because ceasefire fire is a
Kem changer and I mention it before the
T20 meeting ceire is a Kem changer we C
fire I'm afraid that this situation will
continue but again what uh mentioned uh
by secretary blinkin during uh my
meeting uh the meeting with me is
exactly like the same of the statement
by the permanent representative of the
US uh at the UN during the UNS meeting
when the US V but Indonesia of course is
is a very important player it's the
largest Muslim country in the world has
a very strong cause uh for the
Palestinian people how do you feel as a
as a minister representing Indonesia in
a in this in this Circuit of
international leaders who who don't seem
to do anything at the moment I always
mention that Indonesia will take any
possible Avenue to defend
Justice to defend humanity and to be
with the Palestinian uh uh people
because as I mentioned to you it's
already over 70 years and I recall what
happened in bandom the Asia Africa
Summit paltin 19 in
1955 Palestine is the only country who
did not
enjoy Freedom uh Independence yet so we
owe to the Palestinian uh uh people and
again number two because it is in in
Constitution and number three though I
always uh mention that the issue of
Palestine is nothing to do with the
religious issue it is about the
principle but I think the voice of
Indonesia as the largest Muslim uh
population um is very important because
you you will get a lot of pressure I
know you have a lot of pressure from
Islamic organizations in Indonesia to do
more right about the situation in Gaza
don't you feel it Indonesia is yeah is
kind of invisible right now on the world
stage if you look at the situation in
Gaza should Indonesia not have a more
prominent role no Indonesia for this Cas
is very feasible it's very feasible and
well we don't see much right if you see
what's going on between Europe the
Middle East the US and and where was no
no we are very visible uh I I I'll tell
you um during the U the as the summit of
uh Arab Leakes and the
OIC Indonesia represented by the FR
minister is one of the foreign minister
that assigned by the leaders of Arab
League and also the OIC
to make effort to find ways to take uh
uh toward the solution of the situation
so together with the foreign minister of
Arab Saudi Jordan egyp Qatar turkey
Nigeria Indonesia and of course
Palestine uh we visited capitals of five
permanent members of the UN Security
Council and then when was that uh it was
in November it was in November so we
visited every capital of P5 countries
and we also had a meeting with with uh
Norway in Oslo I could not make uh make
it at that time but the rest of the
group faced Oslo met the foreign
minister of Norway not only Norway but
also with the NAIC countries plus with
the banalu but have you been able to
make a difference during that visit yeah
at least for example during the
conversation and I just met also the uh
new foreign minister of of France so we
tried to compare not and we tried to
under line the importance of their
contribution to solve the issue because
we thought their contribution the
situation will go nowhere so in terms of
pales uh Palestinian issue Indonesia is
almost everywhere e but not very visible
maybe behind the scenes but we don't
really see it in the Forefront maybe you
too Focus you're too focus on on the uh
surrounding countries but in every
meeting
about Palestine Indonesia is always in
the Forefront in your speech uh you said
that all the countries all the states
are responsible they have an obligation
shouldn't the world Step Up much more in
that
direction I think the word should sh
shall Step Up um you mentioned about the
collective responsibility the collective
Duty it's true we need that we need that
especially especially once again the P5
the member of Security Council they have
their responsibility they have their
duty to end the
atrocities and but they use the veto
every time and again yeah well that is
the issue that is the issue so once
again without Collective
responsibility it's very difficult and
you mentioned about
sanction um in a conversation with a
number of colleagues
I mentioned about if this kind of Acts
this kind of
policies does by other
countries what will be can you imagine
what will be the reaction of the word
what I can imagine is list of sanction
may be kicking off the country from many
organization will happen but what about
this it's quite OB obious it's it
happens every day but I mean it's unimag
unimaginable why we cannot solve the
issue because again the responsibility
should be ours all of us has the
responsibility uh your country Indonesia
has started accession uh discussions
with the oecd the uh Organization for
economic development and cooperation as
the first country in soueast Asia it's a
very prestigious thing but there were
some reports that Israel who is also a
member was trying to block your
accession have you have you been forced
to make some compromises there no no no
I mean um I make my statement very clear
since the the very beginning of course
the accession is there there is a
discussion the Dynamics I I fully uh
monitor the situation I had a very good
conversation communication with the
Secretary General of the OIC oecd and I
talk before the decision I talk to
almost all European Union foreign
ministers in they supported you
everybody support but Israel was trying
to block it and I mention that if the
trade off is between accession and
normalization with Israel now the answer
is simple
no so so finally they decide to um to
accept the accession of
Indonesia this is just a beginning IU
this is just a beginning so there was no
precondition from there's no
precondition we will see because some
country needs about five years some
countries even need eight years
if I mentioned the Benchmark for
Indonesia to normalize the relation with
Israel actually is very simple and we do
not create new element in it that is the
two-state solution it's already
mentioned everywhere so The Benchmark
Remains the two-state solution If Today
Palestine got the independence there is
a two State solution then immediately
tomorrow normalization will be there
asize that but it's a prestigious thing
as I said right it means a lot for
Indonesia this this uh membership would
you make that choice really on principal
grounds to not become a member because
Israel is there and is trying to to
block it once again the process just
started so I don't want to give the
hypothetical uh answer or it let us see
what is happening now the processes are
starting but they understand the
principle of the Indonesia uh foreign
policy it's very clear you talked a lot
about
self-determination right in your speech
at the icj Indonesia had of course also
in the past some groups within the
country asking for self-determination
the papan people in the East and you
have people in in the malas there were
even some people protesting what do you
tell them about
self-determination do you think that the
case is
similar I'm asking you
I don't think I mean
comparing the issue that you mentioned
with Palestine issue is completely
completely different things that is what
I can see and can you explain
why uh well I mean if you look at from
all the angles all the reason it's I
mean without thought explaining in
details a different it's quite it's
quite uh it's quite clear that comparing
uh I mean we don't have to compare or we
cannot compare to be more exact we
cannot compare those two cases but you
can't explain a bit further why two our
viewers who want to know because I I
think they might not know I just I just
give one example the historical
background that's
it so Indonesia was also considering to
support the case of uh South Africa at
the genocide case right at the icj but
then uh that's impossible because
Indonesia hasn't signed the genocide
convention why is that why we are not
there yet yeah yeah well the process is
not is not uh re uh uh does not reach
the final states of course to be a party
of a convention it is time it takes time
and we are not yet to reach the
consensus within the country about uh uh
being a party of the genocide um
convention but I talk with um South
Africa forign minister in uh Brazil and
we discussed about it and I mentioned to
her clearly though Indonesia is not in
the convention is not a party of the
convention but we give the moral support
what South Africa is doing uh right now
because the vast majority of countries
is is a signatory to the genocide
convention I think it's only like 40
countries who haven't ratified it right
and Indonesia is one of them is it has
it to do with the past with with what
happened
nation5 the national consensus is needed
in every convention that we will uh
choose to be uh a party a state party
and every countries of of course every
country has a a different view but every
country needs also their national uh
consensus like Indonesia but does it
does it have to do with things that
happened like more than 50 years ago
like in 1965 when there was a lot of
different regime right totally different
but there been as I mentioned to you I
mean the national consensus is not there
yet Indonesia has been uh called a
success story if you look at the democra
democratization right I was a witness
myself I've been in Indonesia for a long
time uh and from an authoritarian regime
to democracy
Indonesia was seen as an example uh
under this current president joku Doo
It's been sad that there is been some
setbacks on uh democracy and one of the
examples is what happened with the
nomination of his own son as a vice
presidential candidate and there was a
change uh in the Constitutional Court to
lower the age limit for a vice
presidential candidate which was
accepted by the court and the the the
ruling judge happens to be the
brother-in-law of the president
himself this doesn't sound like the
Reformation the reforms that I witnessed
in Indonesia in all those years do you
see this also as a setback and how do
you explain this to to colleagues for
example around the world well every
democracy um
has has always encountered Dynamics or
challenges but rest assured rest assured
that democracy is already being of the
DNA of
Indonesia how if you mention if you
mention about the up and down you
mention about it up and
down as long as the DNA is there in our
blood I mean but isn't it vulnerable if
you look around the world democracy is
on decline not only in Indonesia but in
other countries too it's a vulnerable
thing it's vulnerable thing it's
vulnerable thing and democracy is not
falling from the sky but we have to
nurture it and I think Indonesian
people remains committed to nurture to
build
democracy because again after being a
democratic country more than how many
years more than 20 25 25 years I mean
being a democratic country for 25 years
is very young it is but 25 years is
enough for us to said that democracy is
being one of the DNA of Indonesia but
would you then condemn what happened at
the Constitutional
Court people call it nepotism what I can
say is that whatever happened democracy
is part of the DNA of Indonesia the
other problem is with democracy might be
the the election of Pabo subbiano as the
new uh president of Indonesia uh he is
known as someone who has a a dark past
human rights abuses in the past and also
was banned by the United States for 20
years and he's now elected and very
possibly will be the next president of
Indonesia how worried are you with him
as the president about
democracy again IU I mentioned already
mention about the Democracy but I think
as you mentioned um during uh before the
conversation that this interview will be
focused on the Palestinian issue so I
think I'm enough conveying my message
about democracy that democracy is
already part of the Indonesian DNA and
we have the commitment to strengthen
democracy whatever the situation is so
you would be part of the new government
as the foreign
minister uh it is very difficult uh
question uh for me IU I've been in my
position for 10 years so I think it's
long enough really yes it is long enough
to be a friend Minister for 10 years in
those 10 years A lot has changed right
in the world if you look back because I
mean it's been a very turbulent time I
think worldwide we just been discussing
also the changing World Order uh also uh
double standard credibility of the West
how do you see after 10 years where the
world is going more uncertain more
instable that is what I what what I see
right now I'm a bit worried about the
situation if there is no commitment from
all of us to make it better but I try
also to see from the other side of the
coin in any challenge in any Dynamic
situ
situation there is a sense of resilience
there is a sense of collaboration like
in Co during the pandemic of
covid-19 so let us together nurture that
sense of
collaboration I've seen a lot on your uh
Instagram how active you are as a
foreign minister you you have this very
cool videos I have to say so so if you
look at your career for those 10 years
what is the Legacy you leave as a
minister it's again it's very difficult
because I mean I don't judge myself
whether
I what sort of Legacy that uh I live uh
but during the uh 10
years uh it's very obvious there is a
change of mindset from the Indonesian uh
Diplomat because in the past uh we talk
more on politics but now in any in every
meeting meeting with any countries the
politics is is important as always but
economic cooperation becomes more
important why economic diplomacy is very
important because it reflects the
interest of the uh the people and we
know that the foreign
policy should reflect the national uh
interest so that's why the economic
diplomacy is very dominant during the
last uh 10 years number two is about
protection of Indonesian National abroad
it becomes more stronger and stronger
and I'm so glad that during the 10 years
I got the opportunity or Indonesia got
the opportunity to lead the ch20 in 2022
as well as in asan in
2023 both the years are difficult years
and sometimes I said that it's like
nightmare when we were there but thanks
God alhamdulillah that we are able
Indonesia is able to pass through that
presidency the chairmanship in a good
way so where do you want to see
Indonesia in 10 years from now what I
want to see is Indonesia keep playing as
the preaching uh uh to play a preaching
role in
the in the word which is I can
anticipate it that the Gap the
differences in the future remains and
even maybe sharpen than now Indonesia's
foreign minister rno marui thank you for
talking to aler thank you very much
thank
[Music]
you
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