I’m Always Wearing a Mask

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Robert, an autistic individual, shares his struggles with social connections and workplace dynamics. He discusses the challenges of being labeled and the impact of autism on his social interactions. The discussion highlights the importance of self-acceptance, overcoming shame, and the potential for forming meaningful relationships despite the hurdles faced by those on the autism spectrum.

Takeaways

• 🤝 The importance of forming social connections and not giving up hope despite challenges.
• 🏷 The negative impact of being labeled and defined by one's autism in social and work environments.
• 😅 The struggle with codependent friendships where humor is used as a compensation for social awkwardness.
• 😣 The feeling of being used as the butt of jokes rather than being accepted as an equal friend.
• 👀 The difficulty with eye contact and its implications on social interactions and perceptions of arrogance or disinterest.
• 💡 The realization that self-deprecating humor can lead to a cycle of disrespect and the suppression of one's true personality.
• 🌟 The potential for individuals on the autism spectrum to have valuable qualities beyond their diagnosis, such as genuine humor.
• 🔒 The fear and anxiety associated with revealing one's autism to others due to past negative experiences.
• 💼 The positive outcomes of disclosing autism to a manager at work, leading to a more comfortable and accepting environment.
• 🔄 The need to find a balance between embracing one's autism and not letting it define all aspects of one's identity and social interactions.
• 🚀 The encouragement to continue trying to form connections despite the possibility of rejection, as understanding and acceptance are possible outcomes.

Q & A

What was Robert's experience with friendships during his school years?

Robert felt his friendships in school were codependent. He was often the subject of ridicule and felt he had to play up his autism to fit in, which led to him being seen more as a source of humor rather than a genuine friend.

How did Robert's autism diagnosis affect his social interactions in school?

After revealing his diagnosis, Robert became labeled with the term 'autistic' and was often the butt of jokes. This label followed him throughout school, impacting his ability to form authentic connections.

What role did humor play in Robert's social life?

Humor was a double-edged sword for Robert. It allowed him to fit into social groups by making people laugh, but it also led to him being laughed at rather than with, and it reinforced the stereotype of his autism.

How did Robert's experience with one group of friends, introduced through a childhood connection, differ from his other experiences?

This group was more malicious, with Robert being introduced as 'the autistic guy' rather than by his name. This introduction set the tone for how he was treated within the group, as an object of amusement rather than a respected friend.

What challenges did Robert face when trying to adjust to college life?

In college, Robert struggled to make friends because he felt awkward and believed people could detect his autism. This belief stemmed from his past experiences and led to him feeling isolated.

How did Robert's past experiences with social groups influence his approach to making friends in his adult life?

Robert's past experiences made him cautious about being outgoing and showing his personality at work, fearing it would lead to the same kind of ridicule he experienced in school. This resulted in him coming across as boring and unemotional.

What is the concept of 'token autistic friend' as mentioned in the script?

The 'token autistic friend' concept refers to a situation where a group may include one person with autism to appear diverse and accepting, but this person is not truly integrated as an equal friend; they are defined by their autism rather than seen as an individual.

How does the script suggest that Robert's experience with being the 'butt of jokes' can be harmful?

The script suggests that being the 'butt of jokes' can create a toxic dynamic where Robert feels he must continue this behavior to gain social acceptance, leading to feelings of disrespect and invalidation of his feelings and criticisms.

What advice does the script provide for Robert regarding his struggle with eye contact?

The script suggests that while eye contact can be worked on through social skills training, it may never reach a 'natural' level for Robert due to his autism. However, it emphasizes that this does not prevent him from forming meaningful relationships.

How does the script address the issue of potential workplace discrimination against people on the autism spectrum?

The script acknowledges that social challenges at work due to autism might exist but emphasizes that being on the spectrum is not a destiny that dooms one to unemployment. It suggests being proactive in communicating one's needs and accommodations to employers.

What is the script's overall message regarding forming social connections for people on the autism spectrum?

The script's overall message is one of hope and encouragement. It advises people on the autism spectrum to accept and not be ashamed of their neurodivergence, to communicate their needs when necessary, and to understand that forming social connections may require patience and persistence but is entirely possible.

Outlines

00:00

🤝 Struggles with Friendships and Identity

Robert, diagnosed with autism at a young age, discusses his challenges in forming and maintaining friendships. He recalls being labeled as 'weird' in school, which led to him being part of the 'nerd group.' His value in this group was primarily as a source of humor, often at his own expense. He also mentions a more malicious group of friends who introduced him as 'the autistic guy,' further reinforcing his label. This experience has made him feel like he needs to hide his true self to fit in.

05:01

😅 The Impact of Being Labeled 'Autistic'

Robert shares how being labeled as 'autistic' affected his social interactions and self-perception. He felt that his only way to gain acceptance was through humor, often at the expense of his own dignity. This led to a dynamic where he was the butt of jokes rather than being respected as an individual. His experiences in school and later in college were marked by a struggle to adjust and form meaningful connections, with the fear of being perceived as 'autistic' always looming.

10:03

🤔 Reflections on Codependence and Social Dynamics

In this paragraph, Robert delves into the concept of codependence in his friendships, particularly with a group he joined through a childhood friend. He felt inferior and always had to play up to the group to maintain his place. His friend's introduction of him as 'the autistic guy' set the tone for how others in the group perceived him, leading to a dynamic where he was always 'the autistic friend' rather than being seen as an individual named Robert.

15:05

😔 The Toxicity of Being the 'Autistic Friend'

Robert describes the negative impact of being seen solely as 'the autistic friend' within his social circles. He felt that his autism became his defining characteristic, overshadowing his true personality. This led to a toxic dynamic where he was often the target of jokes and not taken seriously. His attempts to assert himself were dismissed as 'just his autism acting out,' further isolating him and making him feel like he had to suppress his true self to maintain any form of social acceptance.

20:05

🧠 The Struggle with Autism and Self-Acceptance

Robert expresses his feelings about being autistic, viewing it as a hindrance rather than a gift. He rejects the stereotype of autistic individuals being savants and feels that he only experiences the social downsides of autism. His struggle with self-acceptance is evident as he discusses the challenges of forming connections and his fear of being perceived as rude or arrogant due to his difficulty with eye contact and small talk.

25:07

👀 The Challenge of Eye Contact and Social Interactions

Robert discusses his difficulty with eye contact, which he finds uncomfortable and unnatural. This challenge affects his social interactions, as people often misinterpret his lack of eye contact as disinterest or arrogance. He also talks about his reluctance to disclose his autism to others, fearing potential negative reactions, but acknowledges the positive impact it had when he did share this information with his manager at work.

30:08

🌟 Optimism for Building Connections

Despite his challenges, Robert shows optimism about forming connections. He acknowledges the fear of rejection but is encouraged by the positive changes in his workplace after disclosing his autism. He is open to sharing his neurodivergence when necessary and is learning to be more comfortable with his identity. The conversation highlights the importance of overcoming fear and embracing one's unique qualities.

35:09

🛣️ Navigating the Bumpy Road of Social Acceptance

Robert and the speaker discuss the potential for rejection and the importance of not internalizing it as a personal deficiency. They acknowledge that forming friendships can be a numbers game, where not every connection will be successful, but persistence can lead to meaningful relationships. The conversation emphasizes the need to be proactive and open about one's challenges while also recognizing that autism does not define one's entire identity.

40:11

🏢 Work Challenges and the Importance of Communication

Robert raises concerns about the impact of autism on his work life, particularly the potential for being perceived as rude or off due to his social challenges. The speaker reassures him that while social interactions can be more challenging for those on the spectrum, it is not a destiny that cannot be overcome. They discuss the importance of communicating one's needs and challenges to employers and the potential benefits of being open about one's autism in the workplace.

45:13

🌈 Embracing Neurodivergence and Building Relationships

The conversation concludes with a reflection on the spectrum of autism and the importance of individual experiences. The speaker encourages Robert to embrace his neurodivergence and not to feel ashamed of his autism. They discuss the potential for forming social and romantic relationships and being successful at work, emphasizing that overcoming fear and self-deprecating humor is key to building genuine connections.

Keywords

💡Autism

Autism, or Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), is a neurodevelopmental condition characterized by challenges with social skills, repetitive behaviors, speech and nonverbal communication. In the video, Robert's personal experiences highlight the social stigma and misunderstanding he faces due to his diagnosis, which affects his ability to form friendships and work relationships.

💡Codependency

Codependency refers to an imbalanced relationship where one person relies excessively on another for support. In the context of the video, Robert describes his past friendships as codependent, suggesting an unhealthy dynamic where he felt he had to perform or act in certain ways to maintain these relationships, often at the expense of his own well-being.

💡Masking

Masking in the context of autism refers to the act of concealing one's autistic traits to appear more 'neurotypical'. Robert mentions his difficulty with masking in secondary school, leading to social exclusion and bullying, which is a common challenge for individuals on the autism spectrum trying to fit into social norms.

💡Neurodivergence

Neurodivergence is a term that encompasses variations in the human brain regarding sociability, learning, attention, mood, and other mental functions. The video discusses the concept of neurodivergence as it relates to autism, emphasizing the importance of understanding and accepting these differences in social interactions and the workplace.

💡Self-deprecating humor

Self-deprecating humor is a form of humor where a person makes fun of themselves, often to gain social acceptance or to deflect attention from their insecurities. Robert uses this as a coping mechanism to fit in with his peers, but it also contributes to a dynamic where he is not taken seriously and is the subject of jokes rather than being respected as an individual.

💡Tokenism

Tokenism is the practice of making only a symbolic effort to include members of a marginalized group, without genuinely integrating them. The script describes how Robert feels like the 'token autistic friend' in a group, which implies that he is included more for the group's image rather than for who he is as a person.

💡Inauthenticity

Inauthenticity refers to a lack of genuineness or sincerity. Robert struggles with inauthenticity as he tries to suppress his autistic traits to appear 'normal', which results in him coming across as flat and unemotional, ultimately hindering his ability to form authentic connections.

💡Eye contact

Eye contact is a nonverbal form of communication that is important in social interactions. In the video, Robert's difficulty with maintaining eye contact is highlighted as a challenge in his social life and work, as it can be misinterpreted as disinterest or arrogance, impacting his ability to connect with others.

💡Rejection

Rejection is the act of dismissing or not accepting someone. The fear of rejection is a significant theme in the video, as Robert grapples with the negative experiences and potential for further rejection in forming friendships and work relationships due to his autism.

💡Acceptance

Acceptance in this context refers to the acknowledgment and embracing of one's identity, including neurodivergent conditions like autism. The video emphasizes the importance of self-acceptance for individuals on the autism spectrum, as it is a crucial step towards overcoming social challenges and forming meaningful connections.

💡Neurotypical

Neurotypical is a term used to describe individuals who do not have a neurological condition that affects their development and behavior, in contrast to those on the autism spectrum. The script discusses the challenges Robert faces in trying to fit into neurotypical social norms and the pressures he feels to conform to these standards.

Highlights

Individuals with autism can form social connections, romantic relationships, and be successful at work.

Robert was diagnosed with autism at the age of three.

In school, Robert struggled with masking his symptoms, leading to being labeled as 'weird'.

Robert felt he had to play up his autism to fit into his school's 'nerd group'.

Robert's humor was his primary value in his social group, often at the expense of being laughed at rather than with.

Being introduced as 'the autistic guy' by a friend made Robert feel like a token in his friend group.

Robert's experience with being the butt of jokes led to feelings of being a 'lightning rod' for humor.

Struggles with eye contact and small talk have made forming connections difficult for Robert.

Robert's experience of being defined by his autism led to a desire to suppress parts of his identity.

Robert has worked on overcoming the shame associated with being autistic.

Disclosure of autism to a manager at work led to a more comfortable and accepting work environment.

Robert's humor and self-awareness are noted as strengths in his social interactions.

The fear of rejection can be a barrier to forming connections, but it's important to acknowledge and overcome this fear.

Robert discusses the potential impact of autism on employment and the importance of finding the right company.

The conversation emphasizes the importance of self-acceptance and not letting autism define one's entire identity.

Vocalizing one's challenges and being proactive can set individuals with autism above their peers in the workplace.

The conversation concludes with optimism about the potential for individuals with autism to form meaningful social and professional relationships.

Transcripts

they are able actually to form social

connections romantic relationships be

successful at work so don't give up hope

it just takes a little bit of work

hey friend

hi there

uh what do you go by

uh so my name is robert

roger

uh robert

robert robert

yeah robert okay

welcome robert how are you

yeah not bad thank you

how are your friendships going

so my friendships

have been i'm talking the past tense i

don't really have any friendships at the

moment but my friendships

have

always felt codependent

okay

so i i don't know how do you i can

i've got like

maybe five minutes worth of stuff that i

will sort of read out is that okay yeah

i'd love that thank you so much for

preparing

okay um so

i'm gonna start off by saying that i was

diagnosed as autistic

i think when i was three

okay

and so when i was in school so secondary

school 11 to 16 i

wasn't able to

mask my symptoms as well so

people would make fun of me for being

weird like i was instantly

weird to people and so naturally because

of this

i sort of fell into like the nerd group

of my school

so i remember yeah

and so i remember early on i had this

quite an awkward encounter i think it

was with a girl

um i just said something dumb and my

friend like asked me you know why why am

i so awkward

from people and i told him about my

diagnosis

and so

i remember regretting that day quite a

lot because as soon as i told him

i gave him this like

you know i gave him this buzzword

basically

and so from then on like all throughout

school

i was that word was used to describe me

like constantly

um

and so in in my group there were i would

say three people who are a lot smarter

than i was

uh

and i was one of the four that one very

intelligent

i was educationally quite mediocre so i

could never really join in on any

intelligent discussion

whatsoever

however the only reason i had any value

in this group was because i could make

people laugh like that was like my place

that i held in the group

um

and i found like i mean sometimes i i

could say things that were humorous but

there were times where i would say

something

or i would just do something i would say

something outrageous or do something

outrageous and

you know

people would laugh at me rather than

with me

common

yeah

so um

in fact i think it happened more than

people were laughing at me than with me

no i think of it yeah so

i realized that the only way i could get

a positive response out of my friends

was to just

make them like i i didn't have any place

in this group other than my ability to

make them laugh

and i would sort of uh like i knew that

they knew i was autistic so i would like

uh i would play

play it up a little bit like there were

times where i would be i would pretend

to be completely oblivious to certain

things and

in turn

that would sort of gain a reaction out

of them like oh look at him he's the

funniest bad kid like you know

he does it he doesn't know you know yep

and i sort of created like a almost a

character of myself rather than yeah

like displaying who i was

and

overall i'd say

i had one other group of friends who i

would say more malicious

if in fact it was mostly only one person

um

the other group i'm on good terms now

with like

we're okay

but um

there was another group of people that i

joined through someone that i had known

from when i was young

it's like you know we were we grew up

together

i lived on the same lived on the same

street and you know

his he knew about my diagnosis because

his mother had told him

just for the sake of awareness and you

know when we were kids it's like you

know it's just childhood friends it

doesn't matter but i i remember we

reconnected later on um

like sort of in our secondary school

years started playing cs go together

and

he played cs go with his school friends

and so he introduced me to them

and the first time he introduced me to

his friendship group he introduced me as

oh this is the autistic guy that i was

telling you i was telling you about

and uh he you know he didn't even

introduce me by name i had to say it

myself

but he you know he introduced me as this

label right off the bat

um but i you know i i still managed to

do my usual thing i

was able to fit in with this group i was

you know

i came in with my brand of loud and

obnoxious humor and managed to get

laughs out of them so i like i knew that

i was able to fit in

at the very least

um and i remember the first time that i

met his friends in person

they were kind of like

i don't know what it was but they were

hesitant around me and i wondered why

like i was you know i just like

introduced myself

but they they sort of like

they were kind of like weirded out by me

like right off the bat and later on his

friend had told me that

um

this guy had said oh you know you need

to watch out around him he's severely

autistic and he might throw his arm out

and accidentally hit you

um and he like it was sort of set as a

joke like he was trying to build

this character of me basically um rather

than letting his friends meet me

normally

and so

i was always introduced

as the autistic guy i was never robert

um

i was always his autistic friend that's

how people refer to me as and you know i

i was able to still like fit into a

degree but i was never really respected

as a person i was just kind of this like

sideshow freak on the you know sure that

yeah that's how i felt

um and eventually it got to the point

where

i understood that i was sort of a

lightning rod for all of the jokes

damn what a what a phrase dude

that's such a powerful phrase

i i heard the phrase

stop being autistic a lot like if i ever

said something that was like against

what they were saying that was what was

thrown at me just by default

um

if i ever tried to stand up for myself i

wouldn't ever be taken seriously because

i was just the funny guy that's all i

was

and

because this word was being used to

describe me so much

it became synonymous with my very

existence like i once i left school um

and i entered college i really started

like colleges uh high school 16 to 18.

uh

and i really struggled to adjust like i

couldn't make any friends whatsoever

um like i felt really really awkward

around people because i thought that i

just like emanated autism like they

could just detect it

just by standing near me and you know

that doesn't really make sense right but

because i

i've been caught like i'd become so

attached to this word and i i felt like

i never understood really what i was

being made fun of for but i was being

made fun of for something so i thought

you know i don't

people can just see it but i can't

does that make sense yeah absolutely

okay

um

and so yeah i didn't make any friends in

my last years of education

and you know ever since i've just been

like i've been three years out of

education just working various different

jobs

um

and i've sort of realized how it's

affected me like in my working life

because

and just like my ability to make friends

in general like that i've been around

some people in work who are like my age

and i could have made friends with

but i didn't want to dis i didn't want

to like

do the same thing as i did with all of

my other friends and like try to be

outgoing

and so i would you know i was i was

always worried that they could like

anyone that talks to me can detect it

like they can they know

like they can pick up on like my

awkwardness

um so i i basically tried to pretend to

be as normal as possible

uh

and and in turn i just it would it would

make me seem really

boring really unemotional

like i wouldn't show any personality

basically

because i was worried that if i do show

any amount of personality

then

it will be made fun of

yeah absolutely man

my heart goes out to you

uh i've only got a little bit left to

read

um

but yeah i feel like every single

like i want to expand socially i want to

actually learn what a good friendship

feels like

but

i feel like this is going to get in the

way because whenever i talk to people i

have this like feeling of

just

i feel like i can't be

myself at all like i have to put on

you know this completely normal

appearance i can't

you know

and i end up being yeah i've already

gone over this sorry i'm

yeah i'm worried that because i have

this anxiety of my

autism being found out and people

finding out that there's something wrong

with me i try to be as normal as

possible and in turn that makes me seem

weird in itself yeah and i just don't

know artificial

yeah rigid exactly

yeah

robert you'd mention something about

codependence

so

now i think of it

yeah so i used that word because i was

the friendship group that i was talking

about

that i joined through my childhood

friend

they were like

seen as sort of like popular kids

basically

and for me

being in this friendship group um

i felt like i was finally not a nerd

anymore

basically

and so

if i

left this group

i'd have nothing i'd i'd have to be a

nerd again yeah um so and it yeah it

always felt like they were above me

i was i was below them

and always i was always playing up to

them just to stay in

got it

um

can i just think for a second

sure

thank you very much for sharing things

so concisely i think it's it's actually

very helpful and was also quite

um rich

in terms of your experience and your

background and your information so i'd

love to just process for a moment and

and kind of formulate my thoughts

okay

yeah so robert

is it okay if i if i try to respond in a

more

uh

almost like you kind of gave me five

minutes is it okay if i kind of try to

do the same back to you and then we can

maybe dig in a little bit more

yeah that's fine

so i you know first of all

my heart really goes out to you i i

think you've been

the unhappy recipient of so much of the

struggle that we see

with people who are on the

spectrum so the first thing is that

there's just a lack of awareness about

what autism is

and

and so

you know like even for example like your

friend's mom that told him that you were

on the autism spectrum that's not

necessarily a bad thing like i think

having awareness of people's

neurodevelopment i mean neurodivergent

um you know differences can actually be

like a really important piece of

information

in helping us

form appropriate relationships does that

make sense

yeah so it's not like we want to hide it

like we want people to be kind of aware

but

i think the downside is that

when we start to tell people sometimes

what happens is the autism starts to be

our defining characteristic

yeah and once it starts to become the

defining characteristic i've seen this

in a way that i recently that i really

hadn't seen

even five years ago

where sometimes groups of people right

because we're being like more accepting

of people with autism and it's

neurodevelopmental and it's like you

know it's a little neurodivergent and so

like i've almost seen people who will

have like a token autistic friend

so like groups of people will have like

a friend and it's like oh we're cool and

we're accepting because we've got

one i'm friends with someone with autism

so that means that i'm a cool person and

i'm like accepting of people and i'm

woke and all this kind of stuff

but even then in that moment they they

don't have a friend with autism

they have an autistic friend

and this is where sometimes like

you know i mean i think you shared that

beautifully when you kind of said like

you got introduced as oh here's the

autist i found

you know and they didn't they didn't

even like introduce your name

and that's where like what's sort of

starting to happen is people are

starting starting to be defined by their

autism instead of

autism being a part of who they are

and this can get like even worse because

as you sort of get defined by this one

thing

you're left with a very interesting

social challenge

which is like this is like these people

are my friend because like oh like i'm

autistic

and then what happens is like you're

trying to figure out okay how do i

relate to these people because they're

judging me in this way

and what a lot of people with autism

will end up doing we'll also see this

with other uh neurodivergent kind of

conditions like adhd is very very common

where you become the clown

right because that's how you get your

social status you may not be as

intelligent as them i'm not entirely

sure i agree with that by the way but

you know if you say that we'll accept

that for now

but you kind of like you turn into kind

of this one trick pony where like oh

like let's all laugh at the autistic kid

because at least they're kind of

laughing right they invite you

like you're invited

but you're kind of the butt of jokes

and then you're kind of stuck because

you're in the situation where

even if you try to say something or do

something or

exhibit frustration with your

quote-unquote friends

they attribute oh they're like that's

just his autism acting out like oh we

don't have to take his like concerns

seriously we don't have to take his his

feelings seriously we don't have to take

his criticisms seriously that's just the

autism it's just the autism

yeah and so it's a very

toxic dynamic

where

you have to like continue paying this

price of being the butt of jokes in

order to get some degree of social

acceptance

and then as you lobby to actually be a

part of the group instead of fitting in

like they don't want that right because

they treat you

your entire relationship with them is

defined by the autism

and so like we feel kind of stuck by

this bullying it's essentially bullying

and so then what happens i've seen this

a lot where people will like learn from

that right and they're like okay well

here's the way i've learned how to make

friends which is that like people are

aware of my autism it's sort of like

demeaning in some ways but it also is

like sort of an excuse and if i kind of

screw up or people get mad at me like

they're still gonna invite me next time

because i'm autistic

you know so it does have some advantages

i can poke fun at myself that's what i

bring to people that's my fundamental

value and i'm gonna so i'm gonna engage

in self-deprecating humor which is gonna

encourage disrespect and we're going to

like

keep that going because that's how i

connect with people

and over time what happens is people

realize like oh this is actually kind of

toxic i don't like this

and then you become ashamed of the

autism

because people have been treating you so

poorly because you're autistic

and then you try to suppress parts of

yourself whereas like i don't think that

you're funny just because you're

autistic it sounds to me like one of

your best qualities is that you're

actually like really genuinely funny

and and so then what happens is we try

to hide our autism and we suppress

those humorous parts of ourself you end

up coming across as kind of like flat

yes

right and then like people don't

you don't it's like the thing that you

are the most valuable thing that you can

offer to another human being is

something that you've taken off the

table because at the beginning you used

humor as a compensation for other

potential deficiencies or autism or

whatever and then you realize like in

your mind those two things have come

together

like you can't be funny without being

autistic almost and then as you take a

humor off the table because you're

taking autism off the table then like

how do you connect with people and then

you kind of become rigid you kind of

become flat you kind of become

inauthentic and then it's hard to

connect with people when you're just

kind of like

neutral

yeah

it's like

i gotta say

it it's really hard to be in this

situation and this is a situation that i

hear about

so much from people who are on the

spectrum

um does that resonate with you

that it's

you know yeah a hundred percent i mean

every single thing

definitely yeah so so and this is what

stuff i

i i don't know that i have an easy

answer for you because i i think it's

like

it's a problem we're seeing that's like

more and more

you know

challenging it's happening more and more

so let me start with a couple of

questions is that okay yeah that's fine

so the first is how do you feel about

being autistic

uh i'm just gonna

think for a second

i feel like it's an unnecessary

hindrance for my communication

it's that i don't like there's a lot of

uh

there's this stereotype of an autistic

person where they're sort of like gifted

in some sort of way like oh you know

rain man if you've ever watched that

movie or you can count cards whatever

i'm not i'm not like good at maths i'm

not good at coding i'm not really

particularly good at anything

i just have the social downsides that's

how i personally feel about it

yeah so i think that's a really good um

that's a really good description because

sometimes in the game of life we almost

think about it like i don't know if you

play d d or like

rpgs

but not really okay so like sometimes we

have like this character creation

kind of perspective where it's like if i

get a negative trait

i get some kind of bonus point somewhere

else

and then it all evens out in the end

like i can min max

by having a really low stat over here

but then i'm super high over here and

unfortunately sometimes that's not how

life works

right sometimes things are just like

negative like there's no there's no like

upside to trauma like

right there you know that it

so so that's challenging so how do you

feel about

so you you kind of don't feel like you

have any kind of advantages you're not

an autistic savant

and so but how do you feel about like

what is how do you feel about that

like not having an advantage and just

having a straight disadvantage

i can't really

it's bad

i can't really elaborate on it anymore

like you know there's there's no upside

to it yeah so do you find yourself

wishing that you weren't autistic

all the time

and are you ashamed of being autistic

um

i will i will say not so much anymore

like i've been working a lot on

dealing with that shame and i'm not

really ashamed of it anymore i i the way

i see it now is i could do without it

and it probably would have made my life

play out a little it would have made my

life easier at that stage of my life but

i'm not ashamed of it necessarily like

i've sort of worked on that

so i'm really happy to hear that i think

that's going to be very important for

going forward

and um so

what makes it hard for you to form

connections with people now

um i would say

this is slowly improving but

i would say for the past three years the

only people have already interacted with

people at work it's the

the difficulties of like

there's something so awkward about

small talk and just regular

passing interactions with people and

that there's a lot of that that happens

at work you need to say good morning

like how are you i'm fine how are you

you need to ask them the same question

and then they say the same thing back to

you

um and it like the the in authenticity

of all of these interactions

i always feel like disgusting after i

engage in any of like i can't do small

talk

that's just like one of them

uh what do you the question was

what do you think stops me from building

connections with people right yeah and

if it's like

i don't like small talk that's a

completely valid answer

yeah okay

and the other one

a big part is like eye contact um i can

only really make eye contact for like

two seconds at a time before i have to

look away because obviously like

you know you look like you know people

normal people look at each other

and so over time i've learned that i

have to kind of do that

even though it is difficult so i'll look

at people

in the eyes for like two seconds and

then i have to look away because it

comes it becomes too uncomfortable

and what this means is that people

sort of naturally get an impression of

me that i'm not really on the same page

as they are like i'm you know i'm not

listening to them or i'm not interested

in what they're saying so i i think i

actually give across like an arrogant

vibe like if people don't know they just

assume that i'm rude

and and do you

do how do you feel about telling people

that you're on the spectrum

i i don't

i wouldn't ever do it unless it was the

only person

i've only

told

i'm not going to count all the people

that i've told uh

it would make me uncomfortable

to tell someone unless it was necessary

like a manager for instance uh

i do like i told my manager at my

current job

uh that i'm autistic and i if i'm not

making eye contact as much

it

it feels good to sort of get that weight

off my shoulders that i don't feel like

i have to

pretend

like they understand that i've got this

thing that might make me seem slightly

blunt or standoffish at times

and i've sort of got a reason for it so

i think the the fear of telling someone

can be quite strong because i worry

about maybe like oh will they think that

i'm incompetent will they fire me

but i think once i

you know the most recent case telling my

manager once i told him

um i feel like people at work started to

like when i when i used to come to work

i would just like come in not say a word

and i would go home but

now that people sort of understand

they're okay with that and i'm actually

i actually feel more like a lot more

comfortable in my workplace

and so i feel like i i have actually

started talking more to my co-workers

now so it i know the positive effects

that telling people can have it's just

getting over that initial hurdle of

telling them

that that scares me

yeah

so um

robert i actually feel like i've got

some

i want to share some more stuff with you

i is it

i feel like you actually did such a

beautiful job with your initial kind of

five minutes that i i don't feel like i

need to ask you a bunch of questions

is it okay if i share some thoughts with

you or did were you hoping that i would

ask you more questions

no you can share your thoughts it's fine

so

so here's

so i'm optimistic for you first of all

so i think just talking to you now i

think you have a lot to offer people um

and you know i don't know if hopefully

you're not watching twitch chat or

anything like that but oh no definitely

not good um and also i i think that like

what what i'm you know overwhelmingly

seeing is that people think you're a

cool person and you know you're worthy

of hanging out with and have friendship

and all this kind of stuff right

so so like i i'm not i'm not hearing an

overt rejection from people on twitch

which i think is great

so yeah so i think part of what you're

dealing with is the fear that you have

is primarily because you are it sounds

like in two primary situations

also with people who are like kids for

the most part right

and so kids are not going to be the most

empathic in fact kids are some of the

nastiest people on the planet when it

comes to treating other like treating

people with compassion like kids can be

some of the most cruel human beings

on like in the world

and and so i think a lot of your fear

actually is reasonable right because

you've had this experience where people

have defined you by autism have treated

you a particular way because of that

autism some of that was also like played

into by you

because that was your adaptation to get

acceptance

right yeah and so going forward i i

almost think that you're

you know what i would what what i've

actually seen works and i'm

is first of all developing a healthy

understanding

and relationship with your own

uh autism

and what and i think you're actually

like really far there so in in the past

when i've done you know therapy with

people who have autism we try to get to

kind of where you are which is that i'm

not ashamed of it and it sucks

like i wish i didn't have it and it's

it's okay to authentically wish i wasn't

autistic

and also like it's just part of who i am

and i don't need to be ashamed of it

like you're completely valid with all of

those thoughts

the other thing that i'd kind of say is

there there is some we talked about the

downsides of increasing autism awareness

which is that sometimes you'll have

social groups that want a token autistic

friend

but the upside is that there are a lot

of people out there who are more aware

that you know autism is more common than

we originally thought it's a spectrum

um and that will be actually like more

understanding of your situation and and

try to understand you better and will

like

recognize that if you're not making eye

contact if you struggle with small talk

they won't attribute that to other

things kind of unfairly right like

you're kind of like you're uninterested

or

you know you're arrogant or whatever

like you've kind of said

so oddly enough in your case i would

actually say just like keep trying to

connect with people and also you don't

want to lead necessarily with hi my name

is robert i'm on the spectrum but also

like i i wouldn't

you know if you feel like especially

with small talk i think you can kind of

like share that tidbit a little bit

earlier

and i wouldn't be surprised i'm so happy

to hear about kind of your situation at

work because what i've actually found is

that

you know if you kind of put that out

there and you kind of put yourself out

there and i would include like

activating your humor too

that if you try that with five or six

different groups of people it'll land

really well with like 50 of them

and i think to a certain degree it's

kind of a numbers game because as people

are more

you know compassionate towards people

who are neurodivergent

that actually like opens a lot of doors

and also that like if you if they kind

of understand that oh the reason that

you're not making eye contact isn't

because you dislike me it's maybe a

manifestation of being on the autism

spectrum

like

that will allow relationships to foster

and hopefully you'll actually find

situations more like you did at work i'm

actually really hopeful because you've

at least had a couple

right

and so oddly enough i think forming

relationships with you is really sort of

like acknowledging that fear

acknowledging where that fear comes from

and also not letting the fear control

you and kind of taking a chance

being a little bit funny

and

you know also like not hiding the fact i

wouldn't advertise it but also not being

ashamed of and not hiding the fact that

you're on the spectrum how does that

sound to you

yeah i think you know i don't want to be

someone who makes it i don't want to

sort of like wear autism as a badge and

sort of like show it around and

but at the same time i think yeah when

when necessary when it makes sense to

tell people

that i will and i think i'm a lot more

comfortable with doing that now

yeah i i'm actually just talking to you

and having this interaction makes me

like quite optimistic that

you know it's going to be a little bit

of a bumpy road and i think you're

probably looking at some amount of

rejection

but also that rejection

is not something that i think is like

this is the hard thing is sometimes it's

hard to acknowledge that if a group

rejects us it's not like we're

personally deficient

right yeah

and even then it may not be like a

straight rejection it's just like

you know if you have hey like you want

to hang out sometime yeah sure i'd love

to and then nothing ever happens doesn't

mean that i don't like you it just means

that maybe i'm busy or maybe i'm

struggling with my own depression or you

know like there's a lot of family drama

going on or things like that and i think

that's where it's like it's just

important to remember that to a certain

degree it's like kind of a numbers game

that if you reach out and and try to

connect with five different groups of

people you know two to three of them

will probably like not land but all you

really need is like one or two and then

i think you're you've really come a long

way and i'm optimistic that if you just

keep on trying you'll actually do really

well

yeah

how does that sound

i i mean the the rejection part like

obviously i'm

i have quite a negative relationship

well i think everyone does no one nobody

wants to be rejected um

but yeah getting getting over that

sort of oh everyone hates me if these

people hate me

that will that will be the most

difficult part um

but yeah yeah i mean so i like i said

it's going to be a bumpy road i think

this is the kind of thing we're actually

like seeing a therapist could also help

you with that kind of stuff

insurance i am currently seeing a

therapist oh that's fantastic so i i

would i would take that you know those

rejections i would take them to therapy

and kind of vent them there

um i'm not surprised at all to hear that

you're seeing a therapist because it

sounds like you've really come a long

way and and you're

you know

doing really well

the one thing that i would remember is

that sometimes this can be a feature of

uh being on the spectrum but it is not

exclusive to being on the spectrum so a

lot of neurotypical people will do this

like you know that rejection is

sometimes a manifestation of black and

white thinking

yeah and and just be aware of that right

so black and white thinking is not

specific to autism spectrum but

i tend to see it happen more in in

people with autism

um and so some of the stuff like oh the

only thing i bring to the table

is self-deprecating humor that kind of

black and white thinking i would start

to really become aware of and question a

little bit because i think you bring a

lot i'm just talking to you now like i

feel like i would have no trouble

hanging out with you for like two or

three hours and just

you know and you haven't cracked any

jokes like you're insightful you're

thoughtful

you know you're organized with your

speech

you're self-aware

like you bring a lot to the table

yeah but like in you know with the way

that i'm interacting with you currently

it's very um

it's very formal like i'm not

interacting with you in a like a bubbly

energetic way

i i you know i'm just i'm just saying

words that's all i'm doing and i want to

get past that like exterior that i've

built for myself

and

you know you mean it robert you mean

it's get it gets better than this

i mean

i don't know i i feel like this is just

very i feel like you're you make you

feel like you're i feel like you might

feel like you're talking to a robot

right now because of the sort of

i i don't feel like i'm talking to a

robot

well that's how i always feel when i

talk to people because i

i feel like because i i don't i'm not

emotive and i'm not

energetic like other people are they

they get the impression that i'm like

and yeah i don't know

so i'll just take what you said like

yeah so so like like it's important to

acknowledge that right like but yeah

that that's the whole point is that a

lot of you forming friendships

is going to be

not

negotiating against yourself

could you elaborate yeah so like like

you know you

you're

you're pre-rejecting yourself

you're not even giving me the chance to

accept or reject you you're assuming

that i think i'm talking to a robot

yeah

i i i didn't feel that way at all

yeah i was the only one who said it so

yeah like

you don't seem like a robot to me

it's great to hear that's why honestly

my reaction when you told me like i'm

not being bubbly and energetic is like

this is great you're telling me it gets

better than this like that sounds

awesome

you know and that that's what i think

i'm hearing from you robert is that

you're not showcasing your best self i

think the big difference is that even

your best self is actually completely

acceptable i mean even

not being your best self

is completely acceptable and sounds

fantastic

i just feel like i'm talking to a normal

open

thoughtful person that's what i get from

this conversation

okay

i don't think i've ever been told that

before i think but it's good to hear

that outside perspective i don't i'm not

getting any sense that you're funny but

i i would i would say the the word that

comes to mind the most is that you're

thoughtful

yeah

and if it gets better than that it's

like

like give me the dlc bro

you know like don't don't don't pay wall

the humor

i appreciate that thank you

any questions

um

i i would like to think

sure just for a second so

okay

i think a big one for me is is eye

contact

and like how much of it is

is it something that can be

worked on

like can i learn to make more eye

contact

uh this is where the answer is gonna be

kind of strange the answer is gonna be

yes and no

so if you look at

you know i'm not an expert on autism in

terms of my clinical practice but

i think that they're so if you look at

like evidence-based psychotherapies and

what's effective for people who are on

the spectrum

there is a certain amount of like social

skills training

that can improve

your ability to like relate to other

people

yeah and

you can sort of socially train it but it

may never be at the level of like

natural eye contact

if your brain was a little bit different

okay so

i hopefully i mean i love it if someone

proved me wrong but you know what we

understand about people who are

neurodivergent is that their brains are

a little bit different you can

compensate for a lot of it

what i will tell you is that at some

point it becomes completely irrelevant

so like you may have difficulty with eye

contact or it may feel a little bit

artificial it's kind of hard this has

been my experience working with people

on the spectrum is that it's hard to

like find a natural level right so you

learn how to make more eye contact but

then you can feel like you're staring a

little bit too much and that can make

people so some people uncomfortable and

the truth of the matter is that for some

people that i've worked with they never

get to the neurotypical level and

it's actually kind of irrelevant because

it feels awkward for the first hour that

you're with people but i i've worked

with a ton of people who never master

eye contact who are still able to live

completely fulfilling social and

romantic lives

because at some point like a lot of that

eye contact is actually with the initial

social interaction

and i don't know how to say this but you

know i'm assuming that you've got

relationships with your family but like

do you have eye contact problems with

your family

um

it's not as bad it's not as bad but that

that like i can't

look there's still that thing where i

can't look for too long

yeah it just gets uncomfortable right so

like you may continue to have it my

point is that it may not impact the

relationship

yeah does that make sense

yeah i mean i have been told that eye

contact is huge when it comes to

connecting with people

yeah but i think it's it's more

important early on

right and and what i've seen is that

people like conform relationships and

then then it's totally fine like if you

go to movies like if you go to the

movies with a couple of friends you're

not no one's making eye contact anyway

so it's not really an issue

and if you go to a meal you know it's

not like everyone's staring at each

other for extended periods of time

and so it's okay like if you go on a

hike with someone for example

like you're going to be walking side by

side you're not even going to be looking

at each other

so as you develop relationships with

people i think eye contact becomes

less of a hindrance in terms of the

relationship

okay

but i i i'm you know but i i have worked

with people who continue to struggle

with it and and never really master it

fully

which is unfortunate but also doesn't

determine your future

yeah

and uh

am i good to ask one more question sure

so

i have worked in places in the past

where

i feel like due to

you know not being

so you know very

due to being autistic and well people

aren't ever really aware that i'm

autistic they just think that i'm off or

rude as i've said before and i'm worried

as to how

uh what am i trying to say like how much

important like

is it common for autistic people to be

fired from their job because of uh

things that they give off to people

hmm that's such a good question um

i actually don't so i imagine that

there's probably research

about that

but i don't know the statistics

um

i i i don't know is the short answer

okay

uh

uh what let me think about how i can try

to offer something a little bit more

substantive so i would find it hard to

believe

that

i would imagine that being on the

spectrum makes social interactions at

work

a little bit more challenging

and i would also expect that challenging

social interactions at work

don't correlate well with employment and

things like that

yeah

but and i'm not using an end here i'm

really using a butt

there are lots of other people and lots

of other conditions that lead to

problematic social interactions that

have nothing to do with autism right

like so people can be

narcissistic they can be

passive-aggressive

and the other thing that i'd say is that

i know a ton of people who are very

successfully employed who are are on the

spectrum

okay and

you know like so so

i i think it's

it may be a disadvantage of some kind

but i i think it's far from destiny

and i think it's all so far from like

insurmountable

yeah

it's just a case of finding the right

company yeah something like more of an

issue somewhere yeah so like also

vocalizing to people when you're ready

that you are on the spectrum and that it

affects things in a particular way but

like

you know

you know sharing with your boss that hey

i'm on the spectrum these are the things

that i struggle with but like you know

anytime i'm open to feedback i'm a very

hard worker and here are the ways that i

try to compensate

um you know if this ever becomes a

problem please let me know and i'm happy

to work on it like

even vocalizing things like that can

actually set you above your peers

because

a lot of neurotypical people will never

say stuff like that and they'll be

oblivious to feedback and take things

personally and things like that

yeah

so

you know if you feel like autism is a

disadvantage i'm not going to disagree

with you you're the one who lives your

life and at the same time i don't think

that it dooms you to anything and

the person that i feel like i'm talking

to who's this thoughtful and proactive

about their life i'm optimistic that you

can have

a good job good career and you can form

solid human connections

okay that's great to hear thank you yeah

i think you've put in a lot of work

robert and i think it shows

okay i mean is is there anything else so

not from my end

all right brilliant thank you very much

thank you

great thanks for sharing and thanks for

calling in

all right thank you take care

oh inferno pizza wants to be his friend

real bad yeah so i think you know

i just want to kind of

recap this for a second so sometimes

we're becoming more aware that people

are on the autism spectrum so a couple

of things to remember the first is that

the autism spectrum is a spectrum

and so there's

you know

you can't

define the destinies

of people on the autism spectrum in one

particular way because different people

have different advantages disadvantages

etc

i think unfortunately what we're

starting to see is that as

on the one hand it's good that there's

more autism awareness

right so people like robert have

is in a workplace where he explained

this to his boss boss was very

understanding um you know so it sounds

like he's feeling more comfortable at

work so i think it's totally fine to

share with people if you are on the

spectrum a weird thing that i'm starting

to see though is that sometimes it

starts to define you in a social group

which can actually be quite

toxic

where everything that you do is because

you're autistic right it's like we don't

sometimes allow people with autism to

have normal variation

and and just because i'm mad at you

doesn't mean that like i'm autistic and

and can't regulate my emotions it's

possible the reason that i'm mad at you

is because you're actually treating me

inappropriately and with

disrespect so sometimes we'll see a lot

of invalidation towards people on the

spectrum and sometimes we'll also see a

weird kind of toxic thing which is like

the token autistic friend in a friend

group which as robert said can sometimes

make you a lightning rod for jokes

and so the challenge is if you grow up

on the spectrum and it doesn't

necessarily be i have to be on the

autism spectrum i've seen this with

other things like adhd as well

where you sort of learn that humor and

self-deprecating humor is the way is the

way that you get admission to a friend

group

but if that's what starts to happen like

you know you're paying

a poor admission price and you're not

truly being accepted

so if you're if you're struggling to

form connections i think a lot of it is

actually disentangling

some of the dis self-deprecating humor

and things like that like sort of trying

to find a nice balance with

accepting that you are autistic

accepting that there may not be a

particular advantage if you know not to

say that it's all bad right so people

with autism are allowed

to

say this is not a disadvantage they're

allowed to say this is a disadvantage

like that depends on the individual we

don't get to decide that for people with

autism you have to develop your own

relationship and comfort and acceptance

with your neurodivergence

and once you do that hopefully you're

not ashamed of it right so i think

overcoming that shame is really

important and then as you start to form

connections with people thankfully there

is more awareness

and sometimes you have to let people

know that you're on the spectrum to help

them understand why you may not be doing

some things that neurotypical people do

but in my experience people who sort of

take this approach and and overcome some

of their fears and don't like slip into

automatic self-deprecating humor because

that attracts for a particular kind of

person they are able actually to form

social connections romantic

relationships be successful at work so

don't give up hope it just takes a

little bit of work