Aionios and Aidios - David Konstan

Summary

The script discusses the distinction between two Greek words for 'eternal'—'ionias', referring to a long period of time, and 'iedios', implying infinity. It explores their usage in the Bible and how ancient Greek readers understood these terms differently from Latin readers, who saw them as synonymous. The conversation delves into the theological implications of these words, particularly in the context of universal salvation and the debate over eternal punishment. The speaker also contrasts their views with those of a colleague, emphasizing the complexity and room for interpretation in theological discussions.

Takeaways

• 📚 There are two Greek words for 'eternal' or 'eternity': 'ionias' and 'iedios', which have different meanings and uses.
• 🌐 'Ionias' is the source of the English word 'eon', referring to a long period of time, not necessarily infinite.
• 📖 'Iedios' is stricter, often used in classical Greek for infinite lines or the whole universe, and is rare in the Bible.
• 🏛 In the Bible, 'ionias' is used to convey the idea of a long age or period, rather than infinite time.
• 🔍 The difference between 'ionias' and 'iedios' was recognized by ancient Greek readers but not by Latin readers due to translation.
• 👥 Early Christian theologians, like Gregory of Nazianzus and Origen, believed in universal salvation, influenced by the distinction between the two terms.
• 🤔 The concept of finite sin by a finite creature and God's overriding love were arguments against eternal punishment.
• 📝 The script discusses the scholarly debate on the interpretation of 'ionias', with some believing it means everlasting in worldly terms and others suggesting it applies to God beyond time.
• 🏛️ Church fathers' interpretations of the terms were influenced by their cultural and historical context, including the Roman Empire's decline.
• 📈 The script suggests that the belief in universal salvation can provide a more humane interpretation of religious doctrine.
• 💭 The personal impact of the doctrine of eternal punishment is highlighted, showing how it deeply affects the faith and emotional well-being of believers.

Q & A

What are the two Greek words that are translated as 'eternal' or 'eternity' in English?

The two Greek words are 'ionias' and 'iedios'. 'Ionias' is the word from which we derive the English word 'eon', while 'iedios' is stricter and often used in the context of infinity.

What does the word 'eon' signify in terms of time?

An 'eon' signifies a long period of time. It can be used to describe a whole age or a very long duration, as seen in phrases like 'ages and ages ago'.

How is the concept of 'ionias' used in the Bible?

'Ionias' is used in the Bible to describe a long period of time, such as the age of something, but it does not necessarily imply infinity or eternality in the strict sense.

What does 'iedios' mean in classical Greek, and how is it different from 'ionias'?

'Iedios' in classical Greek means 'forever' and is used in contexts that imply infinity, such as the infinite size of the universe. It is stricter than 'ionias' and is less commonly used in the Bible.

How does the speaker interpret the term 'ionias' in the context of punishment in Christianity?

The speaker suggests that 'ionias', when referring to punishment, could mean 'in that age' rather than implying eternal, endless punishment.

What is the concept of 'universal salvation' mentioned in the script?

Universal salvation is the belief held by some that at the end of time, everyone will be saved. This belief is based on various reasons, including the idea that there will be no evil in the world at the end of time.

Why might the difference between 'ionias' and 'iedios' be significant in theological discussions?

The difference is significant because it can affect interpretations of concepts like punishment and salvation in Christianity. Recognizing 'ionias' as a long period rather than infinite could support the idea of universal salvation.

How did the translation of these terms into Latin affect their original meanings?

In Latin, both terms are translated as 'eternal' using the word 'aeternus', which can lead to a lack of distinction between the two concepts in Latin texts, unlike in Greek.

What role did historical context play in the interpretation of eternal punishment?

Historical context, such as the need for discipline during the decline of the Roman Empire, could lead to a stricter interpretation of punishment, even if some theologians privately disagreed.

What is the speaker's personal belief regarding the debate on universal salvation?

The speaker believes there is room for debate and that the case for biblical authority supporting universal salvation can be made, also considering it a more humane interpretation.

How does the speaker view the impact of the doctrine of eternal punishment on individuals?

The speaker acknowledges that the doctrine of eternal punishment can deeply stress and affect people, especially those who take their faith seriously.

Outlines

00:00

📜 The Distinction Between 'Eternal' Greek Terms

The speaker discusses the two Greek words 'ionias' and 'iedios', which are both translated as 'eternal' but carry different connotations. 'Ionias', from which we derive 'eon', refers to a long period of time and is used in contexts like 'ages and ages', indicating a significant duration rather than infinity. 'Iedios' is more strict, implying true eternity, especially in the context of the universe's infinite nature. The speaker notes the rarity of 'iedios' in the Bible, its use in theological discussions about universal salvation, and the potential for misinterpretation due to the Latin translation of both terms as 'eternal', which may have contributed to differing views on eternal punishment and salvation.

05:02

🌟 Divine Eternity and Universal Salvation

This paragraph delves into the application of 'ionias' and 'iedios' when referring to God, suggesting that 'ionias' may imply a very long term rather than infinity, especially in the context of a world with a known beginning and end. The speaker acknowledges the theological complexities of time and eternity and the varying interpretations of church fathers on universal salvation. The discussion includes the belief of some ancient writers, like Gregory of Nissa, in the eventual salvation of all beings, including Satan. The speaker also touches on the personal impact of eternal punishment beliefs on individuals and the importance of scholarly work in interpreting these concepts.

10:03

🤔 The Urgency of Interpreting Salvation Beliefs

The final paragraph emphasizes the importance of interpreting religious texts to align with a more humane and comforting view of human salvation. The speaker suggests that even without definitive proof, providing believers with reasons to believe in a religion that supports universal salvation can lead to a happier and less tormented life. The urgency is highlighted by the deep emotional impact that eternal punishment doctrines can have on the faithful, potentially causing distress and affecting their spiritual well-being.

Keywords

💡Eternal

The term 'eternal' refers to something that lasts forever without end. In the context of the video, it is used to discuss the Greek words 'ionias' and 'iedios' and their translations into English. 'Eternal' is central to the theme of the video as it explores the concept of timelessness in relation to religious beliefs, particularly in the discussion of eternal punishment and the potential for universal salvation.

💡Eon

An 'eon' is a long period of time, often used to describe an age or era. In the script, 'eon' is derived from the Greek word 'ionias' and is used to discuss the concept of a long duration as opposed to infinity. It is related to the theme by illustrating the difference between a finite period and the idea of something being eternal, which is significant in understanding the nuanced discussion on punishment and salvation.

💡Ionias

'Ionias' is a Greek word that translates to 'eon' in English and represents a long period of time. The script explains that 'ionias' is used in the Bible to denote ages or epochs and is contrasted with 'iedios', which implies infinity. The term is crucial to the video's exploration of temporal concepts in religious texts and their interpretations.

💡Iedios

'Iedios' is a Greek term that signifies 'forever' and is used more strictly for infinite concepts, such as the size of the universe. In the script, 'iedios' is highlighted as being used sparingly in the Bible, suggesting a special significance when it does appear, particularly in discussions about the nature of divine punishment or salvation.

💡Septuagint

The 'Septuagint' is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. It is mentioned in the script to emphasize the rarity of the use of 'iedios' in biblical texts, which underscores the importance of understanding the distinction between 'ionias' and 'iedios' when interpreting religious texts and doctrines.

💡New Testament

The 'New Testament' is the second part of the Christian Bible, and it is referenced in the script to highlight the limited usage of 'iedios'. This usage is critical in the video's argument about the interpretation of eternal punishment and the potential for universal salvation.

💡Universal Salvation

Universal Salvation is the belief that all beings will eventually be saved. The script discusses this concept in relation to the interpretation of the Greek words 'ionias' and 'iedios', suggesting that understanding these terms can influence one's view on whether punishment is finite or infinite, which is a central theme of the video.

💡Gregory of Nazianzus

Gregory of Nazianzus, also known as Gregory the Theologian, is a Church Father and saint who is mentioned in the script for his belief in universal salvation. His views are used as an example of how ancient readers of the Bible understood the concepts of 'ionias' and 'iedios', which is significant in the broader discussion of the video.

💡Latin

Latin is the language in which the Bible was often translated, and the script discusses how the Latin word 'aeternus' is used to translate both 'ionias' and 'iedios', leading to potential confusion. This point is important in the video's argument about the misinterpretation of eternal concepts in religious texts.

💡Church Fathers

The 'Church Fathers' were early Christian theologians and writers whose interpretations of the Bible are discussed in the script. Their understanding of 'ionias' and 'iedios' is highlighted to show how ancient readers may have viewed the concepts of eternal punishment and universal salvation, which is integral to the video's exploration of these themes.

💡Interpretation

Interpretation in this context refers to the scholarly analysis and understanding of religious texts. The script discusses the importance of interpretation in determining whether the Bible supports the idea of eternal punishment or universal salvation, and it emphasizes the need for detailed examination and debate on these topics.

Highlights

Two Greek words for 'eternal' or 'eternity' are discussed, 'ionias' and 'iedios', with different connotations.

Ionias, the source of 'eon', represents a long period of time rather than infinity.

Iedios is stricter, often used for infinite lines or the universe's size, and appears rarely in the Bible.

The Septuagint and New Testament use 'ion' only four times, suggesting its specific usage.

Ionias is used in expressions like 'as old as the mountains', implying age rather than infinity.

Christianity often views punishment as 'ionios', suggesting an age rather than eternal punishment.

Antiquity's saints like Origen and Gregory of Nazianzus believed in universal salvation influenced by these terms.

Latin translations obscure the distinction between 'ionias' and 'iedios', using 'eternal' for both.

Historical periods of discipline orientation may have influenced eternal punishment beliefs.

Theologians sometimes promoted the idea of eternal punishment for societal discipline, despite personal doubts.

Differences in interpretation exist between the speaker and colleague Larry Ramelli on the application of 'ionias' to God.

The speaker argues 'ionias' implies a very long time when referring to God, within the context of time's boundaries.

The complexity of time and eternity in theological discussions is highlighted.

Many Church Fathers, including Gregory of Nissa, believed in universal salvation, as evidenced by their writings.

Interpretation of ancient texts requires careful consideration of word usage and context.

The speaker believes there is room for debate on the texts regarding universal salvation.

The impact of eternal punishment beliefs on individuals' faith and mental well-being is discussed.

The urgency of providing a more humane interpretation of religious texts to alleviate believers' distress is emphasized.

Transcripts

there were two greek words

that we translate as eternal or eternity

and they're different and one of them is

called ionias and that's the greek word

from which we get the um english word

eon and eon because that ion eon um

it just gets translated through latin

and comes into english as eon and an eon

is a long period of time

and you can speak of eons

when um sometimes in the bible it's

translated as age a whole age

and so when we sometimes have that ex

rather biblical expression under the

ages or ages and ages it was we say even

in english it's ages and ages ago you

can use iom the noun or ionios the

adjective in that sense so it means a

long period of time

now in great classical greek iedios

really means forever

it's much stricter tends to be used for

infinite lines

the size of the whole universe um when

they believed it was infinite some some

in antiquity believe it was finite but

um

so it really had a special use and in

the bible it's very uncommon it's only

used twice in the septuagint the greek

translation of the hebrew bible and

twice in the new testament

so when ion is used so for example to

say

it's as old as the mountains and you saw

that ionias

well you obviously don't mean infinite

you don't mean eternal because the

moment the mountains were created

uh the world

is not eternal it has a beginning and an

end

but it is an age we can speak of the

well the united states the age of

aquarius and so on but this is

larger and in christianity one often

thinks of a whole i own a whole age a

whole epoch

and if you want to think of people's

punishment being ionios it could very

well mean in that age

and why this becomes important is that

some

in antiquity who are saints uh

origen's speak species were condemned

but um

gregory of nissan was never he's a

recognized saint and they believed that

at the end of time

everyone would be saved

they call it universal salvation and

everyone would be saved they believe

this for various reasons among others

that uh paul says at the end of time

there will be no evil in the world and

how could you have no harm nothing bad

happening when people are suffering

eternal punishment there are other

reasons a human being is a finite

preacher how could a finite creature

commit an infinite sin

uh or again

god's love would presumably

override

all

sins eventually

that was the argument that elaria

ramelli and i

developed in that book distinguishing

between these two terms

and once we had done this to our

satisfaction in the bible

we looked to see how later ancient

readers understood it

um which made sense because they were it

was their native language they were

close to it we're looking at the church

fathers and we found that

it was not just gregory of nissan origin

but others too seemed to recognize the

difference

he seemed to be aware that these two

terms were the same now when you go into

latin you have a problem because latin

like english translated them both as

eternal

for which in latin the word is iternos

it's the same word we get eternal and so

latin readers

reading the same word weren't attuned

the way greek readers were to the

difference

and that

we argued was part of the place part of

the reason why the problem arose

there were other reasons um

you know at certain periods in history

people become very discipline oriented

especially when they're threatened

and toward the end of the roman empire

with

foreigners capturing rome people upset

about dangers

to get stricter it's happened in history

and so

even those

theologians who didn't believe in

eternal punishment

would sometimes say yeah but it's a good

idea to let people think it happens this

way because this way will prevent them

really from committing sins and we're

doing it for their own good but we

yourselves know better

so it gets complicated and that's what

we tried to show

here is a point of difference between

myself and my colleague uh she claims

that

ionias

does sometimes mean really eternal but

only when the word is applied to god

and i differ

not because i don't think god is eternal

on the contrary i think god is eternal

of course

well it's represented as eternal and the

bible has no no doubt about it but

rather because in those contexts

um we're talking about god in the long

term

uh so

they are using these terms of god

when um

thinking that we want to suggest a very

very long time and possibly one of the

reasons is

that in um christian doctrine

the world as we know it has a beginning

and an end

and so

if i want to say forever

but i'm talking about this world

i don't really mean infinite

now there are mysteries here because

when you're talking about things outside

of time everything is different and the

theologians were very aware of this and

the same for after time so when you're

speaking of god's actions in this world

it's appropriate to say in our period of

time

and that's why i think ionia is applied

then

i can't say that god lasts for infinite

time if time itself has a beginning and

an end well these are complicated but

that's where

um i think my friend larry ramelli

wouldn't really disagree with any of

this but i think it's easier to think of

ionias as always meaning everlasting in

worldly terms

uh when you speak of god you're speaking

of something

beyond that

let me add that

i still believe

in the way that my colleague and friend

larry

does not we differ on this too

i think there's still room for debate

on

the texts

there's no question but that many church

fathers believed in universal salvation

they say so

gregory of nissa believed that even

satan would be

saved

so and he says so so that's not in doubt

when

ancient writers don't say so explicitly

then we have to look at the way they use

the words and of course then it's a

matter of interpretation

i think in many cases

we are dead right there

they really do believe in eternal in

universal salvation you you need some

debate of course if jesus had come out

in the gospels and said

punishment is finite in the end

everybody will be saved there would be

no debate

no one would ever ever disagree and the

issue for interpretation is always um

can you know

intelligent people aren't going to

draw these things out of nothing

and that's why we needed such a long

book with so much detail because we were

building a case

um you have to build it on one after

another after another doctor as happens

with all cases of interpretation where

there's legitimate room for for argument

so do i think there is room still for

argument yes i do

i don't think that um

i i

continually look at people who want to

argue the other side of the picture

but i think that the

case for

for the biblical authority

for

universal salvation can be made

and in in addition that many many of the

church fathers understood it just that

way i think that case can be made

and i also

inclined to think it's a more humane

interpretation

when my

i mean i engaged in this as a scholarly

project

but

when people i've talked to and meetings

i've attended

uh

discuss this uh they come at this with a

very much more personal perception um

am i to believe that for all eternity

people i have loved are being subject to

the worst conceivable kinds of

punishments unimaginable

a total and endurable pain forever and

ever and ever without any intention of

their getting better without any

intention of improving them just

punishing them for the slips and falls

and mistakes they made in this life

uh this tormented people

um and

you know

these are people who live their faith

who take it seriously and

when they are taught this doctrine

it's not just sunday school it sinks

deep into the heart and it it um

it stress them

deeply in their lives so it when meeting

such people

i realize that there's an urgency to

this kind of argument

and even if they have

perhaps not final proof

but good reason to believe

that their religion is compatible with

this conception of human salvation

they can go about their lives happier

you