Stop Using Tor With VPNs
Summary
TLDRIn this video, the host discusses the controversial topic of using a VPN with the Tor network. While some argue that a VPN adds an extra layer of security, the host points out that Tor is already highly effective at anonymizing traffic through its multi-hop encryption system. The video also addresses concerns about ISPs detecting Tor usage and the potential risks of using a VPN, especially in countries with strict internet censorship. The host advises against mixing VPNs with Tor, suggesting that it may actually draw more attention from authorities. Instead, they recommend running one's own Tor relay to contribute to the network's privacy and security. The video concludes with a call to action to support the channel and a reminder of the importance of privacy in the digital age.
Takeaways
- đ The first layer of accessing the dark web using Tor is basic, involving connecting to the Tor browser on Windows.
- đĄïž Layer Two involves using a VPN before connecting to the Tor browser, which is a common question and generally discouraged by the Tor community.
- đ Tor (The Onion Router) provides a higher level of privacy and anonymity compared to VPNs by routing traffic through three different servers with three layers of encryption.
- đ The decentralized nature of Tor allows anyone to run a relay, making it difficult for traffic logs to be compared and users de-anonymized.
- đ Tor establishes new circuits every 10 minutes, further enhancing user privacy by changing the servers through which the traffic passes.
- đ”ïžââïž People who should be concerned about hiding their Tor usage from their ISP are those involved in criminal activities or living in countries that block Tor connections.
- đ§ In countries like Iran and China, using a VPN or accessing Tor through bridges can be risky due to government surveillance and control.
- đ Law enforcement often catches criminals on the dark web due to operational security mistakes unrelated to Tor, such as using personal accounts for clearnet and darknet activities.
- â ïž Using a VPN to connect to Tor can actually make users more conspicuous, especially if the VPN provider is required to keep logs or can be compelled to provide user information.
- đĄ For those who want to enhance their privacy, running their own Tor relay on a VPS can be a more effective and altruistic approach than using a VPN.
- đ° The money spent on VPN subscriptions could be better used to support the Tor network by running a relay, which benefits the entire community.
- đ Using VPNs with Tor is generally not recommended due to the potential risks and the fact that Tor is designed to provide strong anonymity on its own.
Q & A
What is the title of the video posted by Network Chuck?
-The title of the video is 'How to access the dark web in 2023 three layers'.
Why does Network Chuck recommend using a VPN for the second layer when accessing the dark web?
-Network Chuck recommends using a VPN for the second layer to potentially increase security and privacy, although it is a debated topic within the Tor community.
What is the general consensus in official Tor forums and subreddits regarding the use of a VPN with Tor?
-The general consensus in official Tor forums and subreddits is that using a VPN with Tor is not necessary and could even be a bad idea.
How does Tor provide privacy and anonymity compared to a VPN?
-Tor provides privacy and anonymity by routing traffic through three different servers with three layers of encryption, making it more secure than chaining VPN servers together.
Why might someone want to hide the fact that they are using Tor from their ISP?
-People might want to hide their Tor usage from their ISP to avoid scrutiny or potential legal issues, especially if they are in countries that block or monitor Tor connections or if they are involved in activities that could attract law enforcement attention.
What are the two main categories of people who should be concerned with hiding their Tor usage from their ISP?
-The two main categories are people who are engaging in criminal activities or organizing protests on the dark web, and those who are in countries like Iran or China where connections to Tor are blocked.
How does using a VPN with Tor potentially make a user more visible to authorities?
-Using a VPN with Tor can make a user more visible because the traffic from a VPN to Tor stands out and may be targeted for scrutiny by law enforcement or intelligence agencies.
What is the author's recommendation for a VPN service that could be used with Tor if someone insists on doing so?
-The author recommends using a VPN service like Mulvad, which accepts Monero for payment and doesn't require an email address to create an account.
Why does the author suggest that running one's own Tor relay on a VPS might be a better use of money compared to paying for a VPN?
-Running a Tor relay helps the Tor network by increasing the diversity of entry points, making it harder for traffic analysis and surveillance. It also contributes to the privacy of all Tor users and can be a more ethical use of resources.
What is the author's final conclusion on mixing VPNs with Tor?
-The author concludes that mixing VPNs with Tor is a bad idea, as it is unnecessary and likely to make the user stand out, potentially attracting unwanted attention.
What is the significance of Tor establishing new circuits every 10 minutes?
-The practice of establishing new circuits every 10 minutes ensures that a user's traffic is routed through different servers, enhancing privacy by making it more difficult to track or analyze a user's activity.
Why does the author suggest that using a VPN to connect to Tor might lead to more information being revealed to authorities?
-The author suggests that VPN providers, especially those like NordVPN that enforce Know Your Customer (KYC) policies, may be compelled to share user information with authorities, which could include personal details and home IP addresses.
Outlines
đ Controversy Over Using VPNs with Tor
The video discusses the debate around using Virtual Private Networks (VPNs) with the Tor browser. Network Chuck's video on accessing the dark web using a VPN has sparked controversy. While Tor is designed to provide privacy and anonymity through multiple layers of encryption and IP address changes, some experts argue that adding a VPN to the mix is unnecessary and could even be counterproductive. The video explains that Tor's decentralized nature and frequent circuit changes make it superior to VPNs for maintaining privacy. It also addresses concerns about hiding Tor usage from ISPs, especially in countries where Tor is censored, and suggests that using a VPN could actually make users more conspicuous to authorities.
đš Risks of Using VPNs for Dark Web Activities
The video elaborates on the potential risks of using VPNs, especially for individuals engaging in criminal activities or political protests on the dark web. It points out that most criminals caught on the dark web were apprehended due to operational security mistakes unrelated to Tor, such as using personal email addresses. The video argues that VPNs are not likely to offer protection against law enforcement, as evidenced by court records. It also highlights that VPN connections can be easily identified and monitored, making users who connect to Tor through a VPN more suspicious. The video advises against using VPNs like NordVPN for Tor due to their requirement for personal information and suggests using VPNs that accept anonymous payment methods and do not require an email address for an account.
đĄïž Alternatives to Using VPNs with Tor
The video concludes by advising against the use of VPNs with Tor, stating that it is unnecessary and could potentially expose users. Instead, it recommends using Tor as intended, which allows users' traffic to blend with the millions of others using the network, enhancing its effectiveness. The video also suggests that the money spent on VPN subscriptions could be better used to run one's own Tor relay on a Virtual Private Server (VPS), which would contribute to the network's resilience against surveillance. The host encourages viewers to support privacy by running a Tor relay and offers a discount on merchandise for using the cryptocurrency Monero.
Mindmap
Keywords
đĄDark Web
đĄTor Browser
đĄVPN (Virtual Private Network)
đĄLayer
đĄDe-anonymization
đĄISP (Internet Service Provider)
đĄ
đĄThreat Model
đĄCriminal Activity
đĄLaw Enforcement
đĄQuantum-resistant
đĄRunning a Tor Relay
Highlights
Network Chuck has posted a video on how to access the dark web in 2023, which has become one of his most viewed videos this year.
The video suggests using a VPN in conjunction with the Tor browser, which is a common question and topic of debate within the Tor community.
Many official Tor forums and subreddits advise against using a VPN with Tor, suggesting it's unnecessary and could be counterproductive.
Tor provides a high level of encryption and anonymity by routing traffic through three different servers, making it superior to chaining VPNs.
The decentralized nature of Tor allows anyone to run a relay, further enhancing privacy by reducing the chance of traffic log correlation.
Using a VPN primarily to hide Tor usage from an ISP may not be effective, especially in countries where Tor is blocked.
Criminals on the dark web are often caught due to operational security mistakes unrelated to Tor, such as using personal accounts to advertise hidden services.
A VPN connection to Tor stands out more than a direct connection and could attract unwanted attention from law enforcement.
Law enforcement can monitor edge traffic from Tor nodes and VPNs, making VPN-to-Tor connections highly suspicious.
Using a VPN like NordVPN with Tor is not recommended due to its requirement for personal information and lack of anonymous subscription options.
Instead of using a VPN with Tor, it's suggested to use Tor as intended, blending traffic with millions of other users for better anonymity.
Running your own Tor relay on a VPS can be a more beneficial use of resources, enhancing the network's resilience against surveillance.
Using a VPN to connect to Tor is deemed unnecessary and potentially harmful to privacy, as it can make users more conspicuous.
The video recommends against mixing VPNs with Tor, especially when using services like NordVPN that require extensive personal information.
For those concerned about privacy, the video suggests using a VPN like Mulvad that accepts cryptocurrency and doesn't require an email for account creation.
Mulvad's app is open-source and supports quantum-resistant tunnels, providing a higher level of security.
Despite these options, using a VPN with Tor still makes users stand out and is not advised for those seeking to blend in with regular Tor traffic.
The video concludes that using a VPN with Tor is not recommended and suggests contributing to the Tor network by running a relay instead.
Transcripts
a couple of weeks ago Network Chuck
posted this video to his channel titled
how to access the dark web in 2023 three
layers and this is already one of the
more popular videos that he's uploaded
this year at least by view count and of
course Network Chuck has one of the most
popular Tech tutorial channels on the
whole platform I mean his hacking of the
YouTube algorithm has been way more
impressive than most other channels in
this space and his production quality is
actually way better as well but anyway
this how to to access the dark Web video
it really stood out to me because the
first layer is pretty basic right you're
connecting to the tour browser on
Windows that's pretty normal but then
for Layer Two we're involving a VPN
we're first connecting to a VPN and then
to the tour browser now whether or not
you should use a VPN with tour is
actually one of the most common
questions asked about tour in recent
years in fact if you Google that
question you're going to get like 20
million results and when you look at
results from the official tour forums
and from the tour subreddit most of the
time the people there are going to tell
you no don't do this it's not necessary
and it's possibly even a bad idea so why
is it that our boy Chuck is recommending
that we involve a VPN for layer 2 and
layer three dark web activity is he
purposefully trying to get people that
want to visit the dark web to do so in
an unsafe way or people want to increase
their security is he trying to make them
unsafe probably not but I'm going to go
over the details of using a VPN with
tour so that you can make an informed
decision for yourself if you want to use
a configuration that even the tour devs
don't recommend so tour and vpns do the
same thing in terms of encrypting
traffic and changing your IP address but
T does this three times over because
you're going through three different
hops three different servers with three
different layers of encryption so tour
is kind of like chaining three different
VPN servers together except it's even
better than that because of the
decentralized hosting anybody with an
internet connection and a computer can
run a tour relay I've done so myself so
if you connect to tour one hop might
belong to an FBI controlled server the
second hop might be my server and the
third might be a KGB controlled server
but the odds of us three getting
together and comparing our traffic logs
on our servers in order to De anonymize
you is very very slim and even if it did
happen T establishes new circuits every
10 minutes meaning every 10 minutes or
so your traffic is going through three
completely different servers so tour is
clearly much much better at keeping your
traffic private and Anonymous than using
one or many vpns chain together but what
if you wanted to hide the fact that you
are using tour in in the first place
from your ISP if you connect to tour
then your ISP can see that you're doing
that and maybe that's an issue that evpn
can mitigate well first let's establish
what our threat model here is because
the way I see it there's really only two
kinds of people who should be concerned
with hiding the fact that they're using
tour from their ISP and that is people
that are actually doing crime or you
know organizing protest on tour or
anything that might actually cause a
global entity like interpole to come
after you or if you're in a country like
Iran or China where they block
connections to T and so you have to go
through some kind of Bridge to get to
tour in the first place well for the
folks in countries like Iran and China
Tor actually has Aus gated bridges that
serve that very purpose there are
servers that put a great deal of effort
into trying to hide the fact that
they're associated with the tour Network
they're not on a list that you can look
up their traffic doesn't really look
like tour traffic um so blocking those
or is pretty difficult but it is
possible to identify these off you
skated Bridges with very aggressive
scanning and deep packet inspection and
this is actually something that China
has had a great deal of success with
doing in blocking tour with the great
firewall but they've also had a
tremendous amount of success with
blocking VPN connections because those
are just as easy to identify as a tour
Bridge there's no special
technology that makes it harder to
identify a VPN user than a tour user and
so the result is only vpns or the only
vpns that you can use in China are ones
where the government has approved them
which should make you ask some questions
like hey are they keeping logs on
Chinese citizens or not or you know are
these servers that the Chinese
government just has direct access access
to themselves uh so the only other ones
that you're able to connect to VPN wise
are ones that they haven't identified
yet ones that they haven't identified as
an unsanctioned VPN but they're going to
be just as difficult or just as easy to
identify as new ausc tour Bridges so I
don't really think you're gaining
anything by using a VPN if your country
censors tour now let's talk about people
that are using tour
uh who are likely to get targeted by
interpole or their government right
people who are criminals or whatever
would a VPN protect them probably not in
fact we actually have a lot of data
available to answer this question
because criminals on the dark web when
they get persecuted the techniques that
law enforcement used to catch them come
out in court records and 99% of the time
people get caught through very simple
opsc mistakes that had nothing to do
with tour like Dread pirate Roberts the
founder of Silk Road he got caught
because he signed up to a clear web drug
user Forum with his personal Gmail
account and he used it to advertise his
hidden service there and I think he also
used that same Gmail account on stack
Overflow to solicit help with building
the hidden Service uh pom pom purin so
he also revealed his real Gmail account
and private messages that he had with I
think it was omnipotent you know another
hacker several years ago so when the FBI
seized that other hacker 's website they
got the DMS and then they were able to
find that real email associated with pal
and there's been dozens of other cases
like this where people left traces
behind of their dark web activity they
didn't keep their clear web activity
completely separate from their dark web
activity so your ISP knowing that you
connect to tour sometimes that's not
going to be the piece of evidence that
gets you caught or makes you seem more
suspicious uh in fact a VPN that's
connecting to tour is going to stand out
way more than just you know a regular
Home Connection going directly to tour
and if your adversary is a global one
like interpole then they can monitor the
edge traffic of every tour node and
every VPN and every ISP and I can tell
you right now the most interesting
traffic is going to be those connections
going from a VPN to tour because
whoever's on the other end of that
traffic is very paranoid and really
doesn't want you to see what they're
doing so if I was a federal agent
observing all this Edge traffic the VPN
toour packets are going to be the first
ones that I'm going to try to break with
a quantum computer or better yet just
send some of our agents over to your VPN
provider tell them that I think they're
routing traffic for terrorist into the
dark web and your VPN provider is going
to comply they're going to give us
access to all the information that they
have on you which is going to be your
home IP address at the very least and if
you use nordvpn like Network Chuck here
I'm probably also going to get your
email address your full name and the
credit card that you use to sign up with
nordvpn with since Nord enforces kyc so
my conclusion with this mixing vpns with
tour idea is that it's a bad one
especially the way that Network Chuck
did it with using nordvpn which you know
that they're very hard to get an
anonymous subscription from uh you can't
pay them with cash or Monero and they
force you to create an account with your
email address and he's also using the
proprietary nordvpn app to connect to
Nord instead of putting their server
info into openvpn and connecting that
way so this is definitely not the way
that I would recommend to use a VPN
withour really I wouldn't recommend
doing that at all but if you're really
really wanted to for some reason uh I
would say use a VPN like mulvad that
accepts Monera and doesn't require you
to give them an email address in order
to create an account uh and even then I
don't really like using VPN apps because
of the added bloat that you know they
add to it but mad's app is at least GPL
licensed and earlier this year they
added support for Quantum resistant
tunnels in the app so at least with this
you can avoid revealing sensitive
information like your name and email to
get mulvad and then at least the bridge
that you're getting into the tour
network is going to be Quantum resistant
and you know won't be broken with a
quantum computer but you're still going
to stick out like a sore thumb because
millions of people are connecting
directly to the tour Network every
single day where while you can probably
count the people that are going into
tour through a Quantum resistant tunnel
on your fingers and toes and uh those
people they're going to be at the very
tip top of the fed's list of connections
to crack um or they might just use the
$5 wrench method you know nobody even
mulvad is going to take a smack with a
wrench for you so don't use vpns to
connect to tour it's unnecessary and
it's probably going to make you stick
out like a sore thumb and you know
instead of using vpns if you know
someone who is using a VPN to connect a
tour or just uses a VPN to hide their IP
from services that don't block tour
recommend them to just use tour like a
normal person so that their traffic can
be mixed with the millions of other
people that are using tour normally
every single day which is a big part of
what actually makes this network work
you everyone's connection looks the same
uh so you can't Point anyone out and
also that $5 a month that you're going
to pay for an average VPN connection
could easily go towards you running your
own tour relay on a cheap VPS which
helps everybody that's using the tour
network uh since it further reduces is
the likelihood of all three hops being
government controlled servers for the
cost of one spooky VPN subscription you
could be routing a couple terabytes of
traffic every single month for other
privacy enthusiasts like you you enjoyed
this video please like it and share it
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