Breaking Myths: What Really Fuels Cancer Growth, with Dr. Fung and Dr. Seyfried | TCP Ep. 71

Summary

The Target Cancer podcast features Dr. Jason Fung and Dr. Thomas C. Fried discussing the metabolic theory of cancer, challenging the traditional genetic mutation theory. They argue that cancer is a mitochondrial metabolic disease fueled by glucose and glutamine, and stress the importance of diet and lifestyle interventions. The doctors also critique the focus on genetic mutations in cancer treatment, advocating for a shift towards metabolic therapy to improve patient outcomes.

Takeaways

• 🧬 The somatic mutation theory of cancer is questioned in the podcast, with guests arguing that it's not genetics but mitochondrial metabolism that's at the core of cancer development.
• 🍬 Insulin and sugar levels are highlighted as significant factors in cancer pathogenesis, with high levels potentially leading to faster cancer growth.
• 🔒 The National Cancer Institute's serious consideration of the somatic mutation theory is criticized for hindering progress in cancer treatment.
• 🌱 The role of diet, obesity, and inflammation in cancer development is emphasized, with evidence suggesting that environmental factors play a more significant role than genetic mutations.
• 🔝 Obesity is becoming a leading risk factor for cancer, similar to how smoking was in the past, and is associated with insulin and glucose issues.
• 🏃‍♂️ Exercise is mentioned as a way to lower blood sugar and insulin levels, which can help reduce the energy available for cancer cells to grow.
• 🧪 The fermentation metabolism of cancer cells, which relies on glucose and glutamine, is identified as a key target for cancer therapy.
• 💊 There is a call to re-evaluate the standard of care in cancer treatment, advocating for flexibility to adapt to new findings and a shift towards metabolic therapy.
• 🌐 The cancer establishment and current research focus on genetic mutations are criticized for not addressing the root causes of cancer, leading to suboptimal outcomes.
• 🔬 The importance of understanding the bioenergetics of cancer cells is stressed, as it provides a more promising pathway for treatment than the current genetic-focused approach.

Q & A

What is the main issue discussed in the podcast regarding cancer treatment?

The main issue discussed is the reliance on somatic mutation theories for cancer treatment, which the speakers argue is misguided and has led to a lack of progress in treating cancer effectively.

Why do the podcast guests believe that the National Cancer Institute is misguided in their approach?

The guests argue that the National Cancer Institute takes the somatic mutation theory too seriously, focusing on genetic mutations as the primary cause of cancer and overlooking the significant role of diet, obesity, inflammation, and metabolism.

What is the role of insulin and sugar levels in cancer pathogenesis as discussed in the podcast?

Insulin and sugar levels are discussed as significant factors in cancer pathogenesis because high levels can cause tumors to grow faster. The嘉宾主张降低血糖和限制胰岛素水平，以减缓癌症生长。

How does obesity relate to cancer risk according to the podcast?

Obesity is presented as a major risk factor for cancer, potentially replacing smoking as the leading cause. It contributes to inflammation and high insulin levels, which can stimulate cancer cell growth.

What is the 'trunk mutations' theory mentioned in the podcast?

The 'trunk mutations' theory refers to the idea that certain fundamental metabolic changes, rather than just genetic mutations, are the root causes of cancer development.

Why do the speakers argue against the focus on genetic mutations in cancer treatment?

The speakers argue that the focus on genetic mutations distracts from the more significant environmental and metabolic factors that contribute to cancer growth and progression.

What is the significance of the Warburg effect mentioned in the discussion?

The Warburg effect is significant because it highlights how cancer cells predominantly use fermentation (glycolysis) rather than respiration for energy production, even in the presence of oxygen.

How does the podcast discuss the role of diet in cancer?

The podcast emphasizes the importance of diet in cancer development, suggesting that dietary changes can either contribute to or help prevent and treat cancer by affecting insulin, glucose levels, and overall metabolism.

What is the proposed strategy for cancer treatment by the guests?

The proposed strategy is to focus on metabolic therapy that targets the root causes of cancer, such as glucose and glutamine metabolism, rather than solely relying on genetic mutation targeting.

Why do the speakers believe that current cancer treatments are not effective?

The speakers believe that current treatments are not effective because they are based on an incorrect understanding of cancer as a genetic disease rather than a metabolic disorder, leading to treatments that do not address the core issues.

What is the importance of mitochondrial function in cancer as discussed in the podcast?

Mitochondrial function is crucial in the discussion because disruptions in mitochondrial function lead to fermentation metabolism, which is a hallmark of cancer cells and a key driver of unregulated cell growth.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Critique of Somatic Mutation Theory

The speaker expresses skepticism about the Somatic Mutation Theory, questioning its validity given the numerous issues associated with it. They are surprised that it's still taken seriously, especially by the National Cancer Institute. The podcast introduces two guests, Dr. Jason Fung and Dr. Thomas C. Frieden, to discuss the impact of diet, nutrition, and metabolism on cancer's pathogenesis and treatment. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of considering factors beyond genetics, such as insulin and sugar levels, in cancer development.

05:01

🔍 The Overlooked Role of Metabolism in Cancer

In this paragraph, the conversation delves into the role of metabolism in cancer development. The speakers discuss how obesity and inflammation are linked to cancer and how insulin acts as a growth factor, stimulating cancer cells. They criticize the focus on targeted genetic mutations in cancer treatment while neglecting the metabolic processes that fundamentally drive cancer growth. The discussion highlights the need to address the root causes of cancer, such as glucose and insulin levels, rather than just targeting symptoms.

10:01

🌿 The Environmental Factors of Cancer

The speakers emphasize the significant impact of environmental factors, particularly diet and obesity, on cancer risk. They argue that these factors outweigh genetic mutations in contributing to cancer and criticize the medical community's focus on genetics. The paragraph includes a discussion of how changes in diet and lifestyle have led to increased cancer rates, especially among younger people. The speakers also touch on the role of mitochondria in cancer cell energy production and the potential for limiting glucose and insulin to control cancer growth.

15:05

🧬 Challenging the Somatic Mutation Theory

This section critiques the Somatic Mutation Theory of cancer, suggesting that it is not the mutations themselves but the cellular environment and metabolism that drive cancer. The speakers discuss how mutations are a downstream effect of mitochondrial dysfunction and how targeting these mutations in treatment has not been as effective as hoped. They argue for a shift in focus towards the bioenergetics of cancer cells and how they obtain energy.

20:05

🔬 The Centrality of Mitochondrial Metabolism in Cancer

The discussion focuses on the importance of mitochondrial metabolism in cancer cells. The speakers explain how disruptions in mitochondrial function lead to fermentation metabolism, which is prevalent in cancer. They discuss the accumulation of lactic and succinic acid as a result of this metabolism and how it protects cancer cells. The paragraph also addresses the idea that cancer cells revert to ancient, inefficient energy production methods due to mitochondrial dysfunction.

25:05

🏥 The Failure of Current Cancer Treatment Paradigms

This section criticizes current cancer treatment approaches that focus on genetic mutations rather than the metabolic processes of cancer cells. The speakers argue that these treatments are not effective because they do not address the fundamental issue of how cancer cells obtain energy. They discuss the need for a shift in thinking towards metabolic therapies that target glucose and glutamine, which are essential for cancer cell growth.

30:07

🌟 The Promise of Bioenergetic Therapies for Cancer

The speakers discuss the potential of bioenergetic therapies that target the metabolic processes of cancer cells. They highlight the importance of understanding how cancer cells generate energy and how this knowledge can be used to develop more effective treatments. The paragraph includes a discussion of how certain metabolic interventions can make cancer cells more susceptible to radiation and chemotherapy.

35:08

🛡️ The Protective Role of Acidification in Cancer

This section discusses how the acidification of the tumor microenvironment, due to fermentation metabolism, protects cancer cells from various treatments. The speakers explain that this acidification prevents the effectiveness of radiation, chemotherapy, and immunotherapy. They argue that targeting glucose and glutamine metabolism could reduce acidification and improve treatment outcomes.

40:09

🌿 The Impact of Diet and Lifestyle on Cancer

The discussion turns to the impact of diet and lifestyle on cancer, emphasizing the need to manage cancer as a metabolic disorder. The speakers suggest that dietary changes, such as calorie restriction and ketogenic diets, can help control cancer growth by limiting the availability of glucose and glutamine. They also touch on the importance of maintaining a healthy microbiome for overall health and cancer prevention.

45:10

🔬 The Cellular Biology of Cancer Metastasis

This section delves into the cellular biology of cancer metastasis, explaining how certain cells within a tumor acquire the ability to invade and spread. The speakers discuss the role of macrophages and the fusion of different cell types in creating metastatic cells. They also address the challenges in treating cancer due to the heterogeneous nature of tumors and the presence of various cell types with different characteristics.

50:10

🌐 The Need for a Paradigm Shift in Cancer Research

The final paragraph discusses the need for a paradigm shift in cancer research, moving away from the somatic mutation theory towards a focus on mitochondrial metabolism. The speakers express frustration with the current state of cancer research and treatment, arguing that a new approach is necessary to improve patient outcomes. They emphasize the importance of understanding cancer as a metabolic disease and the potential for metabolic therapies to transform cancer treatment.

Keywords

💡Somatic Mutation Theory

The Somatic Mutation Theory is a concept in cancer research that suggests cancer is primarily caused by genetic mutations occurring in somatic, or non-reproductive, cells. These mutations accumulate over time and can lead to uncontrolled cell growth. In the video, there is criticism of this theory as being overly simplistic and not accounting for the complex metabolic factors that contribute to cancer development.

💡Mitochondrial Metabolism

Mitochondrial Metabolism refers to the process by which cells produce energy (ATP) through the mitochondria, typically through a process known as oxidative phosphorylation. The script suggests that disruptions in this process, such as a shift towards fermentation due to mitochondrial dysfunction, may be a root cause of cancer.

💡Fermentation Metabolism

Fermentation Metabolism is an ancient, less efficient method of energy production that occurs in the absence of sufficient oxygen, where glucose and glutamine are converted into energy through processes like glycolysis and glutaminolysis. The transcript discusses how cancer cells often rely on fermentation due to mitochondrial damage.

💡Cancer as a Bioenergetic Disorder

This concept from the video script suggests that cancer should be viewed as a disease of cellular energy production and regulation, rather than purely a genetic disease. It emphasizes the importance of understanding how cancer cells obtain and use energy as a key to treating cancer.

💡Metabolic Therapy

Metabolic Therapy is an approach to cancer treatment discussed in the script that focuses on disrupting the energy production pathways of cancer cells, particularly targeting their reliance on glucose and glutamine fermentation. It is positioned as an alternative to traditional genetic-focused cancer treatments.

💡Insulin

Insulin is a hormone that regulates blood sugar levels. In the context of the video, it is highlighted as a growth factor that can stimulate cancer cell growth by promoting glucose uptake. High insulin levels, often associated with conditions like obesity and diabetes, are suggested to potentially increase cancer risk or progression.

💡Obesity

Obesity is mentioned as a significant risk factor for cancer, potentially due to its association with chronic inflammation and high insulin levels. The video suggests that obesity may be supplanting smoking as a leading preventable cause of cancer.

💡Glucose

Glucose is a simple sugar that serves as a primary source of energy for cells, including cancer cells. The script discusses how high glucose levels can fuel the fermentation metabolism of cancer cells, contributing to their growth and making them resistant to certain treatments.

💡Ketogenic Diet

A Ketogenic Diet is a high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet that shifts the body's energy metabolism from glucose to ketone bodies. In the transcript, it is suggested that such a diet could potentially starve cancer cells of their preferred energy source, glucose, thereby inhibiting their growth.

💡Acidification

Acidification in the context of cancer refers to the lowering of pH in the tumor microenvironment due to the accumulation of acidic byproducts like lactic acid from fermentation metabolism. The script discusses how this acidification can protect cancer cells from treatments like radiation and chemotherapy.

💡Macrophages

Macrophages are a type of immune cell that engulfs and消化s foreign particles. In the transcript, it is suggested that certain cancers, particularly those that are metastatic, may originate from macrophages that have fused with cancer cells, gaining the ability to invade and metastasize.

Highlights

Critique of sematic mutation theories in cancer research.

Discussion on the influence of diet, nutrition, and metabolism on cancer pathogenesis.

Insulin identified as a growth factor that can stimulate cancer cell growth.

Importance of considering environmental factors beyond genetics in cancer development.

The impact of obesity and inflammation on cancer risk, potentially surpassing that of smoking.

The role of glucose and insulin in untreated cancer growth.

The potential for metabolic activity agents to control cancer pathogenesis.

The misconception among oncologists about the role of glucose in cancer.

The need for a shift in thinking about cancer as an environmental and not just a genetic disease.

World Health Organization's stance on obesity-associated cancers.

The increase in young people getting cancer and its link to obesity and diet changes.

The role of mitochondrial function in cancer cell energy production and its implications for treatment.

The impact of diet on cancer development, supported by global population studies.

The theory that cancer is a mitochondrial metabolic disease rather than purely genetic.

The potential for metabolic therapy to improve cancer treatment outcomes.

The economic factors that may contribute to the persistence of certain cancer treatment paradigms.

The role of the microbiome in cancer development and treatment.

The potential of caloric restriction and ketogenic diets in managing cancer.

The importance of understanding cancer as a metabolic disorder for effective treatment.

Transcripts

we spend so much time on you know

sematic mutation theories which is such

a bad Theory there's so much wrong with

it that I'm I'm surprised anybody still

takes it seriously unfortunately the

National Cancer Institute takes it very

very

serious that's why we have no progress

that's what I thought

too welcome to Target cancer podcast

this is Dr Sun janer I'm going to skip

the intro because I am so excited and

humbled

that we have two of our guests that

everyone's asked for uh multiple times

because of this culture shift on

thinking about what is causing cancer

and can we do better and what does diet

and nutrition and Metabolism have to do

with its pathogenesis how we treat it

when it

recurs and if you're thinking that I'm

going to say this yes it's true I have

Dr Jason fun and Dr Thomas C freed today

to discuss the things that we've been

hearing in the news you know and seeing

the data about cancer becoming uh you

know a diagnosis younger it's it's in

higher volume and if you have not

listened to these podcasts before highly

recommend doing so probably before this

podcast because it has really opened my

mind up as an oncologist on not only

what is causing it but what should we be

considering while we are treating it uh

something called trunco mutations root

causes so without any further Ado Jason

Thomas thank you so much for being here

thanks for me y yeah thank you very much

for having me also we're in a world

right now of this glp1 stuff and

everyone's talking about zic and

bringing you know body fat reduction and

obesity down and we've talked a lot

about how obesity and inflammation you

know in the past shows data on causing

cancer but also uh in Jason's podcast

especially about how insulin is a growth

factor and kind of stimulates these

cells to say grow grow grow cancer is

unregulated growth I'd love to start on

talking about

in an untreated cancer um how does

insulin and sugar levels play a role in

its you know pathogenesis quickly and

then also do you think that the

pathogenesis will go down when we have

agents that are able to better control

our metabolic activity um well no I

think these are important issues because

I I what we're seeing now I think um

this obesity issue is uh now seems to be

replacing smoking as the uh as a major

cause of uh linkage too let's put his

way a risk factor and uh for cancer and

and you're right there's an insulin

issue uh there's a glucose issue and um

uh the the systemic

inflammation in many people that are

obese and let's not let's not include

every every obese person on the planet

in the same basket we know there are

some obese people that are actually very

very very healthy they have unbelievably

healthy blood work and all this kind of

stuff but that doesn't is that's the

exception rather than the norm um and if

your insulin is high and your blood

sugar is high and you have uh a tumor uh

it will generally cause that to grow

faster and and I think that's uh pretty

much obvious to those of us who

understand this issue but apparently not

obvious to a majority or I don't want to

say majority but to many

oncologists who have never heard that

that glucose has anything to do uh with

cancer and often encourage their

patients to drink infel or sweet things

to maintain weight um uh which is just

the opposite the advice that you would

want to give someone so why how is it

possible uh that uh people treating uh

cancer would not know that glucose and

insulin levels uh elevation

are provocative to driving the

disregulated cell growth so Sanjay you

are an oncologist you are the voice of

your profession how do you explain this

because I know Jason has spent a lot of

time on many podcasts telling us about

this and apparently uh they might not

have heard him either so I'm not really

I'm not really sure to how to explain

this give me an ex you tell you should

ask you that question what do you think

I I think part of I to be honest I don't

I don't have an explanation other than

you do internal medicine and then you go

on oncology so internal medicine it's

not necessarily A pre-cancer Internal

Medicine training we just learn about

you know the consequence on diabetes and

how that has to do with you know

vascular stuff and kidney disease and

stroke da d da endothelial stuff and

then you just kind of jump into the

treatment of cancer which is you know

predominantly immune therapy

chemotherapy replication cycle and then

now this whole excitement about targeted

mutations uh or targeted therapies that

both of you have kind of taken you you

you spoiled the the joy of for me

because you know at first I was like

great we have all these targets and if

it's showing blueberries we you attack

blueberries rather than trying to hack

away the whole limb because that causes

toxicity and you're like no SJ both of

you hack away the limb or go ahead and

go at the trunk of the tree but do so

without necessarily poison because what

we forget is the trunk of the tree

actually requires things to grow right

it has to be uh watered and it has to

have some kind of fertilized ground

that's why hydrangeas never do well in

my house because I can't even keep uh

the constituents to make that thing grow

which further Downstream are blueberries

strawberries and I'm saying that as if

it's a positive thing but in these cases

the reason that the cancer is growing

we're chasing this all in targeted

therapy world and and and oncologists

have a lot of pressure to make sure

they're up to date with the standard of

care of assessing way down on the limb

what different things are growing uh and

making sure that they're adhering and

and buying the molecular test so that we

can make sure the therapy attacks it um

and and that's why I think this these

conversations are so important we are

not it is not in our repertoire or in

nccn to really think about are these all

just Downstream problems because the the

ground in which the trunk and The Roots

exist are continuing to be watered and

part of it is because we believe well

all ground has to be watered so you

can't really influence too much the

glucose and Insulin which is obviously

wrong yeah I mean the thing is that you

get all these sort of exciting things

about oh there's this mutation and this

mutation and we're going to Target this

and this so I think what happens is that

you get the idea that cancer is caused

by these genetic mutations and it's a

genetic disease and it's just bad luck

and and that feeds in but it's

completely untrue because when you step

back and you say okay well what causes

cancer and they they've done studies on

this what is the biggest uh attributable

population attributable risk to cancer

and smoking's up there around 30% but

what everybody forgets is that way way

up there as Tommy you're saying diet and

obesity is also about 30% and it

completely dwarfs everything like you

know radon and you know chemicals and

chemical carcinogens and stuff right

it's it's a huge huge risk factor and

that's all

environmental um not genetic right so

you have to look at the environment and

then you look at what you talked about

earlier which is that hey we're getting

young people getting tons of cancer and

if it was a genetic disease you'd say

you know the

genetic you know the genetic uh makeup

of the population has not changed in the

last 10 years um other than through

immigration right but it that's not what

we're talking about so what is it that

has changed and of course diets have

changed obesity has changed and the

entire thing so so I think what has

happened is because of the advances in

the genetic you know Technologies and

the treatment you get this idea that

it's 90% genes and 10% but it's not it's

like you know 80% environmental a lot

has to do with your diet and and and

weight and and we know this because the

World Health Organization has 13

different cancers that are obesity

Associated uh one of them for example is

coloral and now you see this shift

younger people are getting col rectal

cancers and bad ones too well why well

not so hard to understand if obesity is

a related Factor then there's more

obesity so therefore you're getting more

you're getting more obesity younger

right kids are getting obese in their

teens now so therefore you're getting

more just like you have more type 2

diabetes uh in young people now same

thing right pediatric clinics used to be

90% uh type 1 and 10% type two now it's

like a 50/50 type one and type two right

you get like 15 year olds with type two

diabetes so so this whole thing is it it

does require this whole shift in

thinking that hey this is not just a

genetic disease that's not to say that

genes have nothing to do with it because

it's not to it's not to say that these

targeted therapies aren't good because

they are good obviously it spend a lot

of money on it but you have when you're

thinking about how the these things

develop you have to think about what is

important so one of the things obviously

is glucose and Insulin then and it's

like you look at breast cancer and it's

been known for like 50 years okay at

least that breast tissue doesn't really

have a lot of insulin receptors why

would it right it doesn't need it but

breast cancer has like piles of insulin

receptors well why well because if it

has lots of insulin receptors then get L

and you have lots of insulin then you

can open up the glute four you know

Channel pour in the glucose into this

into this cancerous cell and it can grow

because we know again that it uses

glucose to grow I mean warberg talked

about that ages ago so it's like okay

well if that's important then limiting

glucose and limiting insulin is

important in the development of colal

and breast cancer which which which for

some reason just gets lost in this whole

it's all about genes it's all about

genes it's all about genes so it gets so

blind insided into this one sort of you

know view that forget about everything

else that's gone on and even when you

look at what causes cancer like genetic

factors um you know and they've they've

done a big study uh on this it's still a

relatively small factor in um in in

causation of cancer it's it's it's like

5 to 10% versus 30 for diet yeah and you

both you both mentioned this in your

podcast about how that was pretty much

nailed on the head when we transplanted

people from other parts of the world

because we said wow they don't get

cancer at all they don't get colon

cancer they don't get this whatever the

cancer was were like they have some

golden you know tp53 that can't be hurt

like or or eight of them like an

elephant does and and then when we

brought them here or the diets that were

American were introduced to where they

were all of a sudden they started having

canc like like and I'm saying it Loosely

but literally transplanted them to study

they were eating American food and and

had a much richer different nature food

and C started to appear I mean that in

itself was very uh memorable that both

of you mentioned yeah remember the story

of um Burkett right so Burkett was uh he

did a lot of missionary work that's what

they called him back then in the 40s and

50s right so I think he Ireland or

somewhere and he went to Africa and then

he's like hey you know white people are

getting all this color rectal cancer but

the Africans don't they get like zero

colon cancer but then when you take

those African people and you westernize

them they start getting Coline cancer

right and that was observed like in the

50s 40s and 50s so obviously the diet

was a huge Factor now he thought it was

all about fiber and maybe it wasn't all

about fiber it may have been all these

other things you know the refined foods

and all that stuff they didn't have the

same chemicals and stuff but probably

the stimulating the hyperinsulinemia the

glucose um at least played a role it but

same thing right you take and and same

thing in um in the north and in in the

Arctic you had all these in the 40s you

had people going up into the Arctic

researchers going up there why don't

these native uh peoples get cancer

there's zero cancer then of course you

yes they start to westernize them and

give them sugar and refined flour and

stuff and they start getting weight gain

and all this type two diabetes hey their

rates of cancer are actually worse than

ours now right so it's like well

obviously it had to do with diet right

that's that's the key factor and when

what you all one that's the cause and

two which y both mention in the podcast

Jason you talked about and I've never

been the same since then about dcis and

are we overtreating because we know to

your point cancer you know needs fuel

and oncologists still Community

oncologist roll their eyes when they

hear well doesn't it fuel cancer but you

need fuel to grow cancer is unregular

cell growth and you're like are we

overtreating dcis when we could have

modifications to

possibly temperate or not give it the

the gas that needs to go uphill and then

let our immune system you know do what

it does and then Dr cpri you took that a

step further and said okay even if it's

invasive can we limit the fuel or or

nutritional sources to hard types that

need something else electric cars need

the charge station that's why I don't

have one I probably need one and do a

lot of driving I have to use gas and you

were like okay we know that one of those

if we the Tes can't be charged it can

take away electricity but that half and

half you're like I want to be able to

take on something additional and and

went into these kind of uh amino acids

or other kind of Escape uh means to be

able to process quote unquote Fuel and

energy uh due to their mitochondrial

changes so if we could talk about that

for a second mitochondria how that gets

changed and influenced uh with diet uh

sugar insulin and then and that strategy

Dr CP that you were talking about yeah

well I I think to follow up on this uh

with respect to the genes and also to

segue into what you what you just said

um we have to look at the theory that's

driving the the approach which is the

somatic mutation theory of cancer now

for those who would think cancer is a

genetic disease they would say and argue

that that that smoking and obesity and

inflammation induce somatic mutations in

the DNA so it's the abnormal yeah you're

you're you're you have an abnormal diet

you have obesity is infl

inflammatory uh and inflammation uh can

lead to uh DNA repair problems and and

these kinds of things and therefore even

though we're seeing a linkage with diet

earlier onset it's still considered a

genetic disease because if we look at

the tissue itself we see uh all kinds of

different

mutations in in the tissue uh even even

the young people when you when you look

at the the tissue from the young people

or the Africans going from one or the

anuit going from one diet to another

when you look at their cancer it's

loaded with all different kinds of

mutations so they say well that see it's

a somatic mutation as opposed to

germline mutations which uh like Jason

said you know it's it's it's the

germline so what we have done is we have

explained uh where all those mutations

and how they link to disregulated cell

growth um the somatic mutations are

coming from this from the mitochondria

itself when the this

inflammation uh coming from obesity and

all these other things or from smoking

or from virus infections or whatever uh

they lead to reactive oxygen species in

the cells

r r are carcinogenic and mutagenic so

they lead to the mutations that you see

in the DNA they break proteins they am

dist disrupt lipids um all of these

things uh lead to uh problems in the

energy utilization and homeostatic state

within within within the cell but every

every cell in someone's tumor has a

different constellation of mutations

from any other cell there's no uh all my

tumor cells have can be identified by

having a singular kind of mutation

that's not true and we've seen that over

and over again but what every cell in

that tumor does share is a dependency on

a fermentation

metabolism um which is in one part the

glucose is fermented to lactic acid and

this is what we see in all major cancers

uh uh an accumulation of lactic acid and

the second thing we is accumulation of

suic acid which is coming from amino

acid fermentation uh when the

mitochondria become defective the cell

has to fall back and getting energy from

some someplace else uh and that energy

has to come from fermentation it's

called substrate level phosphorilation

and in the cytoplasm it's through the

glycolysis pathway and in the

mitochondria it's through the

glutaminolysis pathway D and glutamine

is the most abundant Amino so we have

shown that glutamine is actually

fermented it's a fermented it's a

ferment mented amino acid um now the

mutations are accumulating in the cancer

uh different from every other cell in

the tumor so but but according to the

sematic mutation Theory we'll try to

Target some of those mutations in the

tumor cell with the hope of of reducing

uh and and you often don't find complete

cures from targeting mutations mainly

because you have other cells in there

that may not have those mutations and

therefore they bypass the targeting and

the same time now we're realizing that

many of these driver mutations which are

different P passenger mutations were the

mutations that were thought to be the

ones responsible for triggering the

disregulated cell growth now when you

try to Target driver mutations new

information says and shows clearly from

numerous studies that normal cells in

our body and our tissues have these same

driver mutations that do not lead that

are not associated with disregulated

cell

so when you use an immunotherapy a

targeted approach to managing cancer yes

you may slaughter a large number of the

tumor cells but but then you have

promiscuity and you start destroying

your liver and kidneys and some other

organs that also may have that same M uh

epitope from the mutation and therefore

it's no longer what we consider a precis

a t a precise targeting it's a imprecise

targeting and what we do know is that in

every single cell cancer cell and and

tissue that we have found they are all

have abnormalities number structure and

function of mitochondria and I our most

recent paper shows that all major

cancers accumulate cytoplasmic lipid

drops in the cytoplasm and those

cytoplasmic lipid drops triglyceride

accumulation is there to protect the

cell from Death because they can't use

the fatty acids so they store them in

these vacul in the in this in the

cytoplasm and that's all due to

disregulated mitochondrial function so

if the mitochondria can't respire they

ferment but fatty acids if their fatty

acids or go into the mitochondria

they'll create tremendous oxygen

radicals and kill the cell so to protect

the cell they store the fatty acids as

lipid drops and what we did is we went

through all major human Cancers and we

compared mitochondria structure and

function with cytoplasmic lipid drops

every major cancer has those two

characteristics and they're all

fermenting and they're all dependent on

glucose and glutamine regardless of what

the mutations happen to be all germ line

mutations p53 Leaf manyi braco one all

of these every one of those genes

damages number instruction function of

mitochondria leading to a fermentation

metabolism so whether it's in the germal

line and the mutations the cyto the

somatic mutations are secondary

Downstream effects and germline

mutations cause disruption of

mitochondria function uh leading to

disregulated cell growth as the result

of the product of the inherited Gene

none of them are 100% penetrant meaning

they can only be secondary risk factors

we have never found an inherited

mutation in the genome that is

associated with 100% the highest is Lea

manyi which is about 80% but 20% of the

people that have never developed the

cancer so they're all considered

secondary risk factors just would be a

viral infection smoking obesity any of

these they're all secondary risk factors

the primary risk factor for the origin

of cancer is a chronic disruption of

oxidative phosphorilation coupled with a

trans compensatory fermentation driven

by amino acid and glucose fermentation

processes exactly and I appreciate you

explaining that so granularly uh Tom

Jason when we talk about insulin and

obviously it being a growth factor is

there a relationship on

hyperinsulinemia I'm asking this you

know for for a non-medical person and

mitochondrial health and what are some

strategies to either do or avoid when it

comes to thinking about and should we be

thinking about preservation of

mitochondrial Health when it comes to

metabolic disregulation and

hyperinsulinemia and then even now I'm

thinking you know increase acidity with

dialysis patients and and and their

impaired ability to be able to uh you

know take care of that regulation that

could potentially cause a metabolic

injury to uh to the

mitochondria should we be seeing

increased cancer levels in people that

have impaired renal function um it's not

the acidity so much but I mean for sure

I mean to get back to the in I I think

they work at slightly different levels

because insulin is a sort of a hormonal

level whereas Myra is a cellular level

so they're not they're not directly

interactive but I always think it's

funny because it points to the

importance of looking at the sort of

bioenergetics of cancer which is very

striking because we spend so much time

on youo sematic mutation theories which

is such a bad Theory like honestly it's

it's you know there's so much wrong with

it that I'm I'm surprised anybody still

takes it seriously Jason unfortunately

the National Cancer Institute takes it

very very

seriously that's why we have no progress

that's what I thought too it's

unbelievable I agree with you 100%

understand how Ral Minds can believe

that and and yet uh when you go to the

National Cancer is to

website 100 different genetic

unbelievable don't those guys ever read

the literature this what I learn what I

learned in the 90s in medical school was

this two hit hypothesis that's what

they're talking about back then right so

you have it's not a genetic disease like

polycystic kidney disease or CLE cell

you don't have one hit you have can get

one hit then a second hit and that's

fine that was the theory that I was

taught and probably a lot of people grew

up on but it's go so completely wrong

because there are you know you look at

the average you know cancer uh and he

did this I think Bert vogelstein did a

study and he looked at took cancers and

said how many mutations are there right

and it wasn't one it wasn't two it

wasn't three it wasn't four the average

breast cancer I think had like 50 and

you know the some of the the brain

cancers that you see in young people

there are like 200 mutations right so

it's like okay that's ridiculous right

50 50 different genetic changes and you

still think this is a viable Theory like

how are you going to do that give them

50 different agents to attack all these

these different mutations can't do it on

the other hand you look at bioenergetics

and every single cancer cell I mean not

every but almost all share the same

difficulty described ages ago by warberg

right that hey there's a real difference

here in the way they generate energy

fermentation versus respiration and why

is that and everybody says well you know

with the sematic mutation Theory it's

just a quirky problem that happens it's

just a mistake it's like what so every

single cancer in history makes the same

mistake and you think it's just a coinky

dink right like what are you talking

about clearly this is at the heart of

the the cancer is the bio energy etics

whether you're talking about

mitochondrial Health which is important

and it does influence it so things like

autophagy and mitophagy and stuff

influence it uh you know uh so when you

do talk about intermittent fasting and

stuff it does influence it but insulin

and glucose you're still talking about

the same thing bioenergetics right how

do cells get energy and I I also think

that it's always funny to me that they

say okay so these these cells produce

lactic acid these cancer cells produce

lactic acid and it's like okay and if

that's just another big coinky Dink and

it has no relevance it's like I don't

think so if every single cancer cell is

producing lactic acid it must be because

lactic acid is good for the cancer cell

right so basically I think the cancer

cell produces it I think there's you

know they they say okay it's not

generating as much energy because

oxidative phosphorilation generates way

more ATP per glucose right than than

than fermentation then than um but

that's only a problem if you don't have

enough glucose if you have a lot of

glucose it doesn't matter how many ATP

you're generating per glucose because

you have a ton of glucose sitting out

there so again thinking about it that

way you say well okay then why doesn't

the cancer if if the cancer can choose

either one then it must be producing

lactic acid for a reason and I think

it's a very good reason the lactic acid

protects the cancer cell cells it breaks

down you know the cell membrane so it

allows it to expand it protects it

against attack from other you know

immune cells and other cells that want

to destroy it right because you know

your own body has a natural immunity

natural killer cells and stuff that try

to attack it so the lactic acid must be

beneficial and we need to look at why

it's beneficial so you can attack it but

nobody looks at this nobody looks at

this these sort of really logical sort

to me logical sort of questions and

answers about how we can do this they're

all stuck in this it's all about the

genes it's like so you so you basically

you can't explain any of what's happened

to these different populations right

when when you move a Japanese person

from Japan to America right their risk

of certain cancers goes up tenfold and

you know other cancers gastric cancer

went down tfold well you can explain the

gastric cancer right that was H pylori

probably right so it's like okay well

you're talking about environmental

factors what's the increase in risk of

say breast cancer right and and so the

whole idea of of genetics and sematic

mutation Theory it's it's just like the

sematic mutation like there's so much

wrong with it even in the New York Times

there was an article a few years ago

talking about how they took

esophageal uh cells from sort of uh they

they took normal people non-cancerous

people took these cells and and just

looked at them and compared it to cancer

patients like Cancers and they had all

the same genetic mutation this is the

same it wasn't it wasn't any different

so if normal people are getting

mutations but not getting cancer then

what's the difference right and that's

where I think I think um you know

mitochondrial health is probably the

underlying cellular sort of mechanism

and then on a hormonal level which is a

little bit higher because you're talking

about hormones not individual self then

I think you're talking about hey what's

what's what's the energetics what's the

glucose what's the insulin what's and

also things like glutamine can uh can be

important and and and triglycerides as

well so I mean I'm sitting here thinking

like should I yeah I'm like I'm like

there' be a study on you know a high

volume presentation like just springly a

little sodium bicar po Wes day P I'm

sure you're thinking like North kidney

are going to fix that that's not going

to do anything but the point is these

are things that you want to think about

and consider and I think one good

example that I believe Utah had

mentioned I you Jason uh forgive me for

not remembering but there just so much

wealth of information about cardiac

tissue like that is a nice way that I've

been explaining since talking to you

about about how it's like oh this is a

prim primary heart tumor right that in

itself Clues you in that the heart is

the one tissue in your body that cannot

have fatigue so you could lift all day

in the gym you could do a 10 pound a 50

lb you could do more with the 10

eventually

lactic acid builds up and you're just

not able to Contin however the heart is

the only thing and we don't talk about

that enough that doesn't you know have

that same phenomenon and is able to

sustain for the entirety of your Decades

of life God willing and also ironically

just doesn't have seem to be that common

of an organ to have a primary you know

cancer type in those on those myocytes

yeah that's true and and that and

neurons in the brain e you in order in

order in order to have cancer as warber

said you have to have cell that can

compensate oxos inefficiency with

fermentation and uh cardiac meiocytes

and neurons uh can't do that for very

long um they can do it over a short

period of time if you were to have a

heart attack or or one of these kinds of

things uh but when you have a heart

attack you generally die from massive

brain Dam failure um even if you can get

the person's heart back because the

neurons are dead uh they can sustain a

massive upregulation of fer ation a jolt

for a short period of time and you see

massive amounts of lactic acid uh being

produced um but it can't sustain it

can't sustain that one one thing that's

very interesting is when people do have

heart attacks uh the two things that you

see massively accumulate in the blood uh

are lactic acid and succinic acid this

is well known and the succinic acid

accumulates from glutamine fermentation

in the mitochondria it's called

mitochondrial substrate level

phosphorilation

the cancer cells are locked into this

fermentation they they can't get out of

it because their mitochondria are

inefficient when you accumulate the

lactic acid in the mic you call the

acidification that's that's the that's

the result of mitochondrial inefficiency

so lactic acid lactic acid soyic acid

accumulation in the micro environment is

the direct result of mitochondrial

chronic mitochondrial

insufficiency that

acidification is due to the fermentation

of glucose and glutamine together it

also makes your immunotherapy's

radiation therapy and a lot of other

therapies ineffective they can't break

through this

acidification so question is how do you

reduce the acidification you have to

take away the glucose and the glutamine

um we have not yet been able to find any

canc cell that can survive in the

absence of glucose and glutamine they

can't grow on fatty acids they can't

grow on Ketone bodies we can't find

anything uh that will in in other words

if you take glucose and glutamine and

grow them on fatty acids Ketone bodies

anything you want they die um and how do

we know that you know what we did we

took cancer cells from a range of human

and mouse

cancers and we grew them in Saline just

salt water just salt solution no nothing

and we timed them with a how long did it

take for them to die Mouse cells die

quick because they have a high basil

metabolic rate human cells took actually

few days for them to completely die just

in Saline Solution can you believe it

then we add stuff back one after another

what perks them up uh what allows them

to grow and survive again and we did all

20 amino acids we looked at a bunch of

carbohydrates and stuff and we found

that it was glucose and glutamine were

the only two major fuels that allowed

those tumor cells to perk back up if you

throw a little glutamine they get a

little bit of burst you put glucose and

glut to me together and it's it's

unbelievable um and you have a few

vitamins in there and a few other things

so clearly we have interrogated the

cancer cells to know precisely what they

need to grow in a disregulated way and

it's the two products uh uh driving the

fermentation metabolism in these cells

making this not a complicated disease at

all and as Jason said the all the major

cancers have the same problem it's not

like brain is different from bladder

different from they they all can't live

without glucose and gluty so why are we

focusing on thousands of different gene

mutations when we're Downstream effects

and they have almost nothing to do with

the disregulated Cil

growth now why doesn't somebody tell the

NCI this how is it possible that those

guys sitting at the National Cancer

Institute have no clue they sit there

doing out hundreds of millions of

dollars in Grant support for things that

and we got 1,700 people people a day

dying from cancer in the United States

that's 70 an hour about 70 an hour and

everybody's chasing gene mutations that

have almost nothing irrelevant to the

nature of problem I think tell me what

is wrong what is wrong like telling on

growing I'm just kidding I'm not gonna

put that original original Gene

treatments were so good you know the um

you know the GAC and the uh you know the

herself in and stuff they were really

good right so then everybody thought

this is the answer I remember this

because I I was doing going through

medical school at the time it was like

oh this is great we're just going to

find okay this Gene and treat it with

this drug which was like okay you have

CML we get dreu with GC because that's

the G mutation was so logical right and

I think everybody got seduced by that

that they forget that after those couple

of drugs the first couple drugs there's

been like zero drugs in the last you

know what 20 years now that have made

that kind of a difference right

everything else these all targeted gene

mutation they're not transformative

right if you think about the way LC

transformed uh the treatment of cmml it

was like night and day the thing turned

on a dime right from a bad disease to

like nothing at all practically right it

was a pill you just took it and that you

know so that's why it was so seductive

that the story was so seductive the

treatment was so seductive that

everybody keeps looking but if you

haven't found it in 20 years and you

know how much money has gone into cancer

research well it probably ain't there

those were like the way outliers of the

genetic Paradigm and they're just not

true for most cancers but the initial

promise was so alluring that people are

still going down this pathway despite

the fact that there's just way better

you know this whole evolutionary uh

thought that it's an evolutionary

disease I mean changes everything right

it it it changes how you think about the

disease it changes how you should

approach the disease bioenergetics like

thinking about bioenergetics because

it's so core to all cancers it just

changes then like then you can start

asking the questions how can you affect

it right because we don't have great

treatments right people say can you

starve cancers by just changing your

diet that's pretty it's pretty broad

right because if you think about cancer

CIA the cancer really takes what it

wants from your body right because when

you lose weight what you see in the

normal non-cancerous is that you see

that the uh as you lose weight your

metabolic rate goes down because you

have less and less energy stored right

you don't see that in canceri it's a

totally different disease the cancer

just takes whatever it wants it will

completely catabolize your your muscles

it'll burn out everything you have

that's why these people get so skinny

it's a different disease it's not just

weight loss that's why people who say

well you should eat sugar and stuff so

you gain weight it's like okay this

cancer is taking all your amino acids

breaking down your muscles and you're

gaining fat cells does not a good

strategy and you're actually not even

getting that much of it so that whole

idea of oh you should eat more have some

candy because you're losing weight

that's not it doesn't actually pass any

kind of logical thing like that's third

GR thinking right like we're supposed to

be doctors right it's like you're

operating at a level that's way too low

right because cancer CIA is not just

weight loss it has nothing to do with

normal weight loss it's these cancers

that are sucking all your energy out no

matter what you do so when you see um

you know people losing weight and

they're 80 pounds they're metabolic rate

has not gone down at all their metabolic

rate should have gone from 2,000

calories a day to like 12 100 a day

because that's what happens in every

other person who tries to lose weight

that's the whole problem with losing

weight right is that when you reduce

your calor intake your metabolic rate

goes down because the body is trying to

match it that doesn't happen in cancer

totally different disease so again

pointing to the fact that bioenergetics

like how this cancer generates energy

which is you know gets back to the power

you know the the energy Supply which is

mitochondria and stuff is sort of core

to the entire problem right and

obviously we don't have all the answers

but at least it's a much more promising

pathway than going on and on about

genetics and same as Tom I'm like I'm

always stunned when I go to any of these

websites and it's a genetic disease it's

like the first sentence they say it's

like goodness I know it's bad and and I

know hard stops Tom I'm let you finish

that out I'm sorry I want to ask on that

point from both of you and your thought

P please sorry um speaking on that

if somebody had a malignancy stage two

stage three or it's just like a strong

family history and really worried what

are some more granular things to

optimize obviously like the insulin

levels mitochondrial injury Downstream

in the way of antioxidants and berries

like even conceptually what are the

things why does working out help what

are the things we can do to protect the

much more rooted cause of what seems to

be the you know elicitor of all these

mutations in the plasms um well let me

just follow up on Jason's CIA issue

which is really a core issue in cancer

um and he's right the the the cancer uh

will take your muscles the muscles begin

to lose their uh composition and what

happens the amino acids uh will go back

into the bloodstream and go to the liver

and the liver will use it to make uh

through gluconeogenesis you can actually

make sugar from the dissolved amino

acids from the from the muscles and the

glutamine itself is just a a pure gold

fuel uh for the tumor and our work has

shown that all metastatic cancers are uh

of maccrage origin a maccrage is part of

our immune our immune cell um they are

the only cells that can actually move in

in and that one of the few they're part

of the immune cells move in and out of

tissues um so you have two different

kinds of cancer cells you have the stem

cells that grow like crazy uh and then

you have the metastatic cells and they

all of macro every every major human

cancer that we have studied has maccrage

characteristics and they are the cells

that are already programmed to enter and

ex exit the bloodstream this

intravasation extravasation their

immunosuppression um and they they they

they'll lead to the cic phenotype and

getting their energy from dissolving

muscles and and Jason it's very

interesting when when you're in CIA your

insulin is high when you go under

calorie restriction therapeutic fasting

your insulin and glucose go down and

it's like just it's just a blown out

opposite thing you're you're you're

right so we have to look at this as a

bioenergetic problem uh linked

intrinsically to to the mitochondria and

and when you say well how do we manage

well if we know that the cells can't

grow without fermentation fuels that are

driving the disregulated growth then the

strategy to manage cancer would be to

simultanously Target the two fuels that

are leading to this disregulated growth

and they can't use fatty acids and

ketones as I've said they store them

they don't use them so uh when we look

at calorie restricted ketogenic diets or

ketogenic metabolic therapy we lower the

blood sugar and this's another very

important thing people always say oh we

can never lower sugar enough to starve

the tumor that's not true because when

you lower the blood sugar what are the

organs that take in the available sugar

it's the muscle and there you go back to

your exercise again muscle does not

share sugar muscle builds glycogen

because if the Beast is evolutionarily

if the if the bear is chasing you you

must run away that comes from the energy

if your muscle shares glucose with other

organs and the Bears you have no energy

to run so the muscle takes glucose out

of the blood stores it as glycogen for

the muscle use the brain is the biggest

consumer of glucose in our body so what

little glucose is left when you lower

blood sugar the brain's going to get it

who's going to get it last the tumor

cell gets the last so you have to

realize you're marginalizing their

ability to survive and then when you hit

them with the GL the glutamine targeting

on the other end which has to be done

very strategically and carefully you Mar

you completely destroy the capability of

this tumor to grow you reduce the

angiogenesis you reduce the inflammation

and gradually your body power to heal

will eventually go after and dissolve

those tumor cells themselves and use

that fuel for the energy for the rest of

the body it's unbelievable it's called

un autolytic cannibalism where the body

will actually turn on the tumor and use

the fuels for itself everything is

related to bioenergetics if you know why

and we and then we take poor patients

and we treat them with all these

terrible toxic poisons reducing the our

own ability of the body to do what I

just said you compromise the body's

ability to heal itself by the very

treatment she using to manage the

disease makes absolutely no sense now

I'm not throwing out immunotherapies

because they're based on the sematic

mutation Theory they're based on the so

based on an incorrect Theory but they

could be a powerful tool if used

correctly if you can use a metabolic

approach to shrink the tumor down to a

few cells that are still alive they must

share something in common because

they've survived together as a group

they may now be appropriately destroyed

by a targeted immunotherapy but not at

the beginning because at the beginning

you have all this hodge podge like Jay

said there just a total hodge podge of

stuff you may get some people to respond

well but you also create

hyperprogressive disease not knowing the

tool that you're use making the situa a

bad situation much worse so I I think we

just have to know how to use all the

tools that we have in the appropriate

way with our understanding that this is

fundamentally a metabolic disorder a

bioenergetic disorder that we have to

use the entire body's resources together

with our understanding with the

foundational principle of what's going

on inside the neoplastic cell itself

once we understand this the solution to

the cancer problem problem will be

obvious to everybody and you're going to

see drops in death rates like you can't

imagine but as long as the National

Cancer Institute thinks it's a genetic

disease yeah ain't G to get any progress

It's just that simple and the other

thing that was if you go back and look

at the NCI history you find in

1984 they invited the pharmaceutical

industry to help the scientists of the

national cancerous who find cures to

cancer that was putting the fox in the

an house how's that working out for us

so far

right we have more cancer today let me

tell you something else that smoking

thing in in the early days of the smoke

anti-smoking campaign get alone they

they in 1991 they had this no more smoke

because you second sand smoke was

bothering people so we stopped smoking

now what they say is all the advances

we've made since 1991 this giant 33%

drop was because we stopped smoking the

the the issue is is that had we not

smoked we would have 33% more cancer

deaths today than we that we actually

have so it's all smoking mirrors if you

want if you want to know what's going

on it's unbelievable prevention was the

only thing that really gave us some grip

on the whole thing it wasn't targeting

gene mutations or any of that crazy

stuff that that seems to be uh the

subject of millions of dollars uh thrown

at these insane grants that are having

no significant impact on survivability

for cancer with a majority of people

it's as I said it's the greatest tragedy

in the history of Medicine what we've

had happen with this cancer fias yeah I

I mean I agree I have to leave in a

minute but I I I completely agree with

you I think that you know using you know

understanding about glucose and amino

acids and then trying to do sort of more

fat-based therapies I to me it's it's

the only way but but to me it's a very

sort

of you know ham-handed sort of way to

approach things and I think that if we

had more research then we could develop

much more sort of targeted ways like I

know Tomia talked about hyperbaric

oxygen and stuff and I think there's

still something in there uh but it just

hasn't been fleshed out and nobody's

thinking about these things that such a

promising

pathway you know that that that needs

the research because we're we're dealing

with very primitive tools when we're

just trying to sort of do this diet

thing compared to you know oh we're

targeting this Gene you get we have so

much money poured into the genes that we

are so specific treatments of genes and

yet we can't we know nothing and can't

do anything about the bioenergetics

which sort of um does it so yeah I mean

such a lost opportunity so well that's

that's predominantly because of the

theory that's driving the industry the

sematic mutation theory is the is the

theory driving research and development

in the academic and pharmaceutical

Industries and therefore if cancer is

not a genetic disease it's a

mitochondrial metabolic disorder you're

never going to achieve Optimum outcome

for the majority of patients the theory

is wrong just as the geocentric theory

of the solar system was not correct

until you put the sun in the center of

the solar system all the planet

movements made sense when as soon as you

put the mitochondria in the center of

the cancer problem you're going to see

major drip

drops sorry about that it's great

talking to you I appreciate it when you

mentioned the point about the acidity

around the tumor or the lactic acid and

how radiation isn't as effective I'm

really almost frustrated because I've

never heard the next step we've hear

about radio resistant or radio

refractory tumors and they become very

challenging especially when they're in a

bad stubborn place can we talk about

that a little bit more on how is there a

way that we could potentially make a

radio classically or traditionally radio

refractory uh tumor more susceptible to

radiation delivery number one and number

two um what like how do we how do we do

that well I mean it's very clear what's

responsible for the um acidification of

the micro environment in impeding uh

radiation therapy and immunotherapy for

that matter and chemotherapy for that

matter it's this

acidification um what what what happens

when you're fermenting uh there's a

pglycoprotein on the surface of of

cancer cells that as soon as the drugs

come in they pump them right out so and

that's driven by a fermentation

metabolism and the and causing the

acidification so what is that as I said

we have interrogated these cancer cells

and it's the availability to convert

glucose into lactic acid through the

glycolysis

cytoplasmic gly in the in the cytopl in

the in the cytoplasma glycolysis pathway

dumping out lactic acid and also

glutamine uh dumping out succinic acid

so those are acids where the protons

come out along with the with the lactate

the succinate and you have acidified the

micro environment thereby serving it's

it's not purposeful in the sense the

cancer cells don't do this as a designed

mechanism to provide they're doing it as

as a as a response to a failure in

oxidative energy metabolism but it also

prevents other therapies from working so

if you were able to significantly reduce

glucose and Elevate Ketone bodies um you

then make these tumors extremely

vulnerable to radiation uh therapy you

make them far more vulnerable to

immunotherapies and some and you can use

half the dosage of chemotherapies and

still have them have tremendous

therapeutic benefit so again you have to

to remove that protection that Shield of

acidification where is it coming from

it's coming from the fermentation of two

fuels glucose and glutamine simultaneous

targeting of glucose and glutamine while

under nutritional ketosis will allow

radiation and all these other therapies

to work infinitely

better case period it's no question

about that because everybody knows the

acidification is blocking how do you get

rid of the acidification where is it

coming from it's coming from the

fermentation of two fuels only now

Sanjay listen to this no one anywhere is

doing what I just said they want to test

drugs in clinical trials double blind

crossover One Drug this guy gets it then

we're going to that cannot be done that

kind of a a trial must be booted out

those trials have been Monumental

failures uh for a long period of time

obviously we had 1,700 people a day

dying from cancer in the country I mean

this is a tragedy why because we're

testing drugs in the wrong way it's a

diet drug combination that you're

looking for to make the tumors

vulnerable the ultimate goal ultimate

goal in all this is how do we keep

cancer patients alive longer with a

higher quality of life and it's

metabolic therapy man that's what's

going to do it and you got to Target

these fuels and then you're going to

find all these things that didn't work

all of a sudden are going to work

dramatically well

under a different kind of it so we're

not throwing anybody out of the boat

we're just telling them to reposition

where you're sitting you're you might

not have been as important as you

thought but we still need what you're

going to do so uh um so this is the

thing you're going to find dramatic I

have no doubt about it but what I'm

talking seems to be uh too many there

too many issues to stand in the way

especially the theory when the theory is

incorrect the outome will never be

optimal and that's seems like this

podcast and what I hope to achieve even

in the next six months for myself but

meaning like on transition of where I

can put my manand withd that that will

hopefully really catalyze this because I

know you have made it your mission the

man that is Thomas C freed has you have

you have spent now decades on trying to

debunk this thing and I I cannot express

my deep admiration for you for that well

we we we need guys like you you you're

going to be the guy you're the guy in

the in the trenches that's actually

going to implement the the Paradigm

change because we we have when we go to

oncologists and they never heard that

glucose has any role in cancer and diet

has no relevant and that we're going to

use all these expensive drugs we have to

re-educate the oncology Community to

know that the disorder that they thought

was a genetic disease is actually a

mitochondrial metabolic disease well Tom

Tom I worry I worry it's deeper than

that I worry that

it's ultimately economic and

capitalistic issue which I know you said

but I really deeply think well then then

then then we have to give every cancer

patient that comes into the clinic has

to be given a little brochure to say we

thank them for their disease because

it's a very powerful uh driver of the of

the medic I know nobody's gonna say that

nobody's going to tell cancer patients

we're going to thank them because their

disease is supporting a massively

profitable industry um I think it should

be patient outcome first and

profitability second not not the reverse

but how do we do that we have to have

entrepreneurs who come into the picture

and figure out how we can uh generate uh

a comparable profits from something that

actually works and helps the patient I

don't think people are opposed to paying

a large amount of money for something

that actually works uh but it's paying a

lot of money that causes Financial

toxicity and death th this is this is

this is an a program that's not going to

work uh eventually people are going to

wise up and say we can't we can't do

this anymore it's actually threat threat

to National Security for crying out loud

I honestly think and I've never said

this in my life before I honestly think

in a weird way if you have this

beautiful big torch of passion and and

and Science and and understanding you

have lit one for me that I now feel as

like my primary Mission I've never felt

in my core like what is the primary

Mission I just like do what the univers

tells me I feel like I want to I want to

help uh everything that You' done to

really go full force on this very

important issue um I really I'm going

say that in a second I'm going to ask

one thing real quick to put back right

when you went on that about the aid V

and I'm afraid to ask this question but

I'm really afraid to ask this question

but is that why and I could be wrong

liposarcomas are generally very chemor

refractory and even like radiation's not

great uh and is pancreatic cancer which

we know is called classically a stubborn

tumor is that also an uh uh

environmental we know they hijack the

immune system and hijack you know

extracellular Matrix stuff but do you

think there's a role on the a acidity of

the micro environment for these way more

stubborn tumors that's reducing our our

whole yeah well certainly for pancreatic

cancer and and gasto and some of the

lung C well they're all like you know

driven um with with a a macras component

fuse hybridization and these kinds of

things um making them making them

exceptionally uh dependent on both

glucose and glutamine the

liposarcomas uh on the other hand

they're not nearly as aggressive uh as

some of these other more um uh what we

call malignant kinds of things and I've

always been interested in liposarcomas

they they kind of they can come from

certain kinds of mitochondrial

abnormalities I have I I put that

section in my book where you have

certain kinds of impacts on

mitochondrial F you get some some kinds

of these postar and they can be a

to to manage they just hang

on just just hack them away maybe

surgery might be the only but but it's

like the Cockroach

ofy uh they have an interesting slightly

different kind of metabolism from some

of the more invasive malignant kinds um

but that's kind of the interest of of

Cell Biology and uh you know I become

less less concerned about a liposarcoma

than I become concerned by a pancreatic

or a glol blastoma these kinds of tumors

you know these are the ones that and the

ones that are lung cancer and breast

cancer the ones that are killing most of

us is cholon cancers and bladder and

this kind of thing um but uh uh yeah but

I mean I I did dress the liposarcoma a

little bit in my in my canceris a

mitochondrial metabolic disease paper

but I I didn't do a deep dive on it and

yeah it's just unique because things

don't work on it and that usually

happens when things are slow because

tools we use on rep the funny thing when

you talk about liposarcoma is my my

sister many years ago had a had a dog

with a liposarcoma and we try to use our

metabolic therapy on it uh you know what

was U it was you know the the dog was

given calorie restricted food usually it

works on on a lot of different kinds of

malignant cancer and and what happened

was that you had a liposarcoma on this

on this dog it was attached and we put

him on metabolic therapy then we found

out it was a dog attached to a lightos

saroma

oh my gosh you know it worked on the dog

but it didn't work on the lifeo sarom

but but uh that was an interesting uh n

of one uh but but you're right I I think

we we we need to figure that out a

little bit more I'm not I'm not claiming

that we have a solution it's just so

unque yeah compared to other we study a

little bit more we'll figure it out real

quick it's funny you said that about

dogs I had uh a gentleman from uh

Harvard yesterday uh Dr San Lim and they

found a workaround around their AI

enabled you know uh tumor sensitivity

workup stuff they do on live cells and

they started with dogs one because you

it kind of bypassed all of this uh you

know difficulty on that's another whole

another podcast on on even proving

something its utility because of of all

the red tape but at least to blood

cancers dogs apparently have a much

faster um response to treatments like

the chemotherapy anyway I didn't know if

there was a metabolic reason for that or

if they just proliferate more or what

but apparently it's it's it's far more

prompt and brisk uh than what we have to

wait for with a couple of Cycles in

humans for things like Hotchkins and

other things yeah well dogs you know I

published that paper on the mass cell

tumor on the dog's face published in in

I think it was frontiers of nutrition or

something and uh that was the only thing

we actually cured um I mean we keep

people alive very long but who knows if

they're cured or not uh but but the dog

had complete resolution of the mass cell

tumor using a metabolic therapy um and I

have all the details in the paper itself

it's unbelievable the dog died from old

age from heart disease so the cancer

never can't that's the only way you know

you're cured if you live really old and

you die from something other than the

cancer then you can say oh I was Cur

somebody say I cured my cancer when I

died from but that's okay if you're 98

years old Dro dead of a heart attack

when you had bladder cancer when you're

40 you know obviously metabolic therapy

tour kept you alive for that long to die

from something else I mean we're all

we're all terminal in one way or another

that we just want to we just don't want

to make it too premat we don't want it

to be premature um but but like and I

like I like I like that that's what you

say you're like look I'm not claiming to

cure cancers but what I can tell you is

we can have them in a deep durable

control just keep them quote unquote in

check for a long time like that's what

that's our guy from England Pablo Kelly

he's had three three uh debulking for

his

Blasta I idh1 and and and he's he's just

celebrating 10 years of survival now

he's married two kids he never had that

uh but his cancer is there he's not Ted

he's just has it and it grows slow and

he gets into de bulk periodic uh what do

you have to have a cure do you want to

just live longer and have a somewhat of

a normal life I mean be thankful man if

you did standard of care you would have

been dead nine years

ago right right and I mean it's I'm

laughing and I'm I know that person I'm

the person that's doing this you know

like I'm the one it's like Gallow humor

for Christ's sake you know

it's yes nail it um gosh I I I really if

I can say I have a bromance love for

someone it is 100% you lastly if if you

have the time so sparing what I believe

is is also understated got microbiome

health and its intimate relationship

with the dexterity of the immune system

because I do believe having these narrow

diet of just mac and cheese and chicken

nuggets without the kind of

heterogeneous stuff when it comes to

different fruits and fibers not the

fiber itself but but fiber RIS things

that have uh introduce kind of a

dexterity to your immune system short of

that on a cellular metabolic level when

it comes to optimizing the health of our

you know mitochondria and and cellular

injury I hope anyone can appreciate one

in your discussions the role and why

we've been saying antioxidants for a

long time

right you do support like that supports

what you're saying oh we you know we you

know it helps radical uh Ros injury Etc

T like working out what is that it helps

cardiovascular you know

processes what are the things that make

theoretical Sense on someone that is

trying to avoid a recurrence or prevent

cancer to optimize this mitochondrial

metabolic health that you were talking

about well that's you know the late uh

Richard V from NIH I had many

discussions with him and and George

kahill from the diabet josin diabetes

center and when we look at what what

prevents reactive ox or oxidative stress

uh when you say antioxidant uh

capabilities while water only fasting uh

uh and and these kinds of things when

the body switches from glucose to Ketone

bodies they're powerfully antioxidant um

they actually improve the Delta G Prime

of ATP hydrolysis within the

mitochondria itself which means you're

for every for every breath of oxygen for

every mole of oxygen you take in you

actually get more efficient energy uh

with minimal reactive Ox species so this

is don't forget we as a species evolved

to always been in a sem a semi-state of

nutritional ketosis where cancer was

unheard of uh well I not going to say we

knew what was going on in the

Paleolithic period but we certainly know

from modern modern humans live according

to traditional ways they're generally in

in in semi ketosis that's powerfully

antioxidant so um and you can supplement

that with your berries and things like

this and certain things like that so

again it's never one thing it's a

cocktail of things all go together to

give you Ma maximum metabolic efficiency

maximum homeostatic efficiency it's like

a it's like a hypo oxidant State almost

that's a word it's it's not yeah you can

kind of touch it every now and then like

pull out weed here and there in your in

your in your house with antioxidants

that's a Bist that you're talking about

just like ketotic State a ktic state can

double over as a homonym to a hypo

oxidant State yes yes and you know the

other thing people are always talking

about is their microbiome they love this

to soon as just mentioned microbioma you

know has keep our microbiome healthy and

then when you get cancer you Jim know

you know what chemo does to your

microbiome God Almighty what are you

talking about your microbiome and then

you take some toxic chemical and you

can't get off the pot and kill it when

are your microbiome is screaming out

please no more no

boss right no it's true I think that's

the factor it makes no damn sense you're

always talking about then you give

somebody this radiation and chemo and

and it knocks the crap out literally

next to your

microb I mean when you think of the

absurdity of stuff that we do to human

beings in the name of trying to help

them it just makes no sense at all but

um yeah there's so many different uh

ways you can you can look at this and

our our goal has always been how do we

manage a chronic CA disease like cancer

in a logical way based upon the hard

science that we know is there and and

and all I have done is looked at the

science I'm trained biochemist and

geneticist we go back and you look and

and all of a sudden you can see all this

thing and how wonderful it works and

doesn't hurt people and then you go out

you're looking say everybody what are

they doing out in the real world what

are you guys doing to these poor cancer

patients it's like they exist in two

different worlds it's like the

biochemists and the phds do something in

some other country with a different

passport and somehow it's like get that

and you get you trickle into another

country and they see it off and then

they take what was done in this country

when it's the clinical stuff now and

that's the problem is there is just not

a nice uh you know inner stitching of

that world it's more of a handoff and I

think that's where things are lost

there's nobody in the middle that's

actually kind of putting these things

together like you are yeah well that's

the whole thing our work is directly

translational better better than any

anyone else's that we can find uh and

the NIH oh you got to do translational

work and then they build all these crazy

models genetically engineered cells and

genetically engineered hosts and you get

all these things and it makes it it's

just doesn't make a lot of sense

everything has to be done with natural

natural natural natural as close to the

real world as possible will give you the

better the better uh uh outcomes uh and

you know translational and and and

almost none of this stuff is

translational uh when you look at it um

and they say oh you know you cure these

mice all the time and you go to the

clinic and you never get the well

they're not using the right the right uh

tools they're not using the right models

they're getting it like like like I said

in my in my in my in my book uh the uh

when you when you bait when you bait the

um the mouse trap with a picture of a

piece of cheese what you catch is a

picture of a mouse you don't really get

the you don't really see the real what's

really happening yeah and what we're

doing is we've just got you know

pictures of cheese everywhere in our in

our uh in our preclinical model systems

I mean the cheese is like the tumor

micro environment we know that's

important it seems to be a problem and

you're like yes and this is this is the

cellular level and the kind of

communication we know why the micro

environment is screwed up we just don't

do anything about it and and we're

making it worse in most of the case in

most cases so again you have to have a

re-evaluation of what's going on you you

really need to I don't know what the

hell they're doing down at the National

Cancer Institute they they keep backs

slapping and coming up with all this

kind of crazy stuff and and and people

are dying out there um uh they're

miserable uh suffering that I can't even

I get all these emails dozens of dozens

I sometimes I have to walk away I say

what are we doing to these poor people

um we're not treating them the way we

should be treating them when you say are

and we can you just tell us anyone

that's listening that that that is

driving and can't like ghoul you

what do you mean by us and we and our

well I would say it's the it's the

establishment what is the cancer

establishment doing no I mean for you

when you say what we're doing and what

our focus is what what our our focus is

to manage are uh what well the people

that understand maybe maybe one of you

maybe you'll become one of these guys in

the I'm I I think this podcast did it

for me actually understand what cancer

is and how it should be treated yeah uh

and then and then not being allowed to

do that because of a of a a standard of

care written in Granite and standards of

care should have never been written in

Granite uh they have to be flexible as

new information comes along we should be

able to modify the standard of care you

know when we do clinical trials you you

have the standard of Care standard care

with metabolic therapy and metabolic

therapy by itself why is the missing

control group never allowed to be done

this is this is the the the crazy stuff

so anyway I I have no long I don't know

how long it's going to take to break

down the walls uh but I'll tell you one

thing people want to live and their

their motivation to want to live and

know that there's an alternative to what

we're doing uh may may help change the

system and I and I'm hoping for that

Dred I just I really hope I would love

to shake your hand one day I hope like

that's something you find were you live

in Foxboro uh yeah I live in Foxboro I'm

right now right now I'm at the

University at Boston College gotcha I

just I really respect so much what

you're doing have you met GRE Greg Simon

uh no I haven't I I don't think the

first cancer moonshot director yeah if

you time one day I would love to

introduce yall too I honestly think

y'all would be best friends like it's

like it's unbelievable how much I like

he was the first cancer moonshot uh

director under Obama and um and uh Gore

and y'all are just so unbelievably

similar you appreciate the NCI shadiness

and and y'all are just very you know

globally just kind of mission driven

he's a cancer patient he's actually not

a scientist he used to get like a rock

star I believe it or not but he's he's

deeply respect I think once the once the

theory changes and you realize that it's

a mitochondrial metabolic disease then

everything will begin to change until

that theory is and and and all the

textbooks say it's a genetic disease so

you're you're just perpetuating the the

the lack of knowledge on the part of the

industry uh all the as you said when you

went to medical school you never heard

that cancer was a was anything other

than a genetic disease so clearly the

education in the medical schools have to

change as well it's a big mission but

anyway I'm I'm here I'm not going

anywhere um we have a lot of stuff going

and all of our work is supported by

philanthropy and private foundations so

uh not the nation they they did it when

you do certain things they're very very

valuable to support research there's no

question about it you know National

Institutes of Health has been a great

resource for the nation um but right now

in the cancer field and the cancer thing

it's it's just not working and and and I

think it can work once they realize the

theory the theory that they're working

under uh is incorrect and they once they

switch the theories then you're going to

see massive changes in the outcome and

Improvement for patient uh survival when

we talk about like contiguous or cancers

that like in lung on smoker or in

Colon to Jason's point about the double

hit to me there it kind of makes sense

because it's like if you have a tubo

villis adoma or an environment where

there was one portion that's invasive

and the other is not that's the one

challenge I can think about what it

relates to the switch or a mutation

because what is it that Mak something

that's screwed up actually become

invasive cancer versus pre yeah that's

what we we in my book on the origin of

metastatic in my paper this is another

thing that's very I published the paper

uh in 2013 I believe u on the origin of

metastatic cancer which talks about

exactly what you just mentioned why some

cells are not invasive where other cells

are invasive and that comes from the

fusion hybridization of of our immune

cells coming in cancer is viewed as by

the body as an unhealed wound and and it

it sends out singings cyto and factors

that cause the immune system to come in

and facilitate wound healing and those

cells are largely macras and they throw

out growth factors in cyto but it

stimulates the the stem cells to grow

stem cells are not in invasive they grow

like crazy but don't have the

capabilities of metastasizing

intravasation extravasation this kind of

thing but when the macras is fused

together with themselves and with one of

these stem cells you now have a cell

that's not only disregulated in in cell

growth but also has the genetic

apparatus to spread around and invade in

in a different way because when when

macrofagos come out of your bloodstream

as monocytes they come right through the

tissue to heal the wound right they're

in they're uh uh intravis intravasation

extravasation all this is macras

behavior this exactly what metastatic

cancer cells but stems and one sub part

of the tumor can't do that because

there's mostly stem cells so you can

have very this is why when you're

looking at a cancer you have a hodg

podge of different kinds of cells in

that you have normal Max you have Fus

Max you have stem cells you have a whole

big what they call Cellular heterogen Hy

blasts yeah they're all in there and and

and the ones that blast out and become

metastatic every one of them has has

macro characteristics I published all

this I I showed everything and that

paper has been cited over 1,300 times

now listen to this they never read the

paper I put I only said in there

metastasis is responsible for most

cancer deaths and that's the only reason

they site the paper without without ever

reading what I actually said this is

amazing so the the folks in the field

aren't reading the literat are just

they're just taking little chunks of

what this so I call it broken science

it's a problem where we have everything

there to explain it but people either

are not reading it or don't understand

it so it's really yeah metastasis why

you have certain parts of the tumor uh

they grow fast but they don't spread the

other part little thing spreads all over

the place this is all due to the cell

biology that exists inside that um uh

organ a tumor is kind of an organ it's

own blood system Ed yeah yeah yeah yeah

so that cell that cell is the cancer

cell or the even pre cancer cell is a

thing that eventually actually puts out

the signaling to make that stem cell

around it differentiate yeah it's not

differenti EnV yeah they well and don't

forget when you interrogate the

metabolism of the of the stem cell and

the metastatic cell they're they're both

fermenting the the problem is the stem

cell does not have the genetic apparatus

to allow it to pen local Invasion

intravasation extra these are all very

sophisticated biological processes this

just doesn't happen by chance and the

thing the the field calls it the E

epithelial meenal trans transition which

is complete nonsense but yet that's

based on the sematic mut mutation theory

if you ever sit down and look at what

the EMT me is have in that paper it's

complete nonsense and yet everybody is

brainwashed into thinking about this um

so yeah it's a metastatic cancer is a m

is a maccrage disorder with with macr

fases fermenting with that and their

fused hybrid hybrids has been shown many

many times so you know what the

metastatic cell is driven heavily by

glucose and glutamine you know how to

kill metastatic cells just because you

understand their biology yeah stem cells

grow like crazy too they'll kill you

from Mass Effect by by just being a big

a big bringing in more immune cells it's

a as I wrote it's a it's a it's a

situation of of escalating biological

chaos all these different cells are

doing what they're doing in the wrong

context so biology is now they're all

cells are screaming at each other in

different ways trying to figure out

what's going on and it's all uh things

that were programmed into cells but done

in a completely wrong context yeah this

is the first time ever of two years

doing this podcast every two weeks that

I finally made a connection to what

Michael Levan Dr Michael L I know if you

know him yes I know him well yeah he's

doing what you're doing basically but

not metabolic but the on the electric

bioelectric kind of you know concept

this is the first time I've finally been

able to make a connction ction because

when you said the tomare you know I

guess I knew but I didn't know until you

said it like this is basically like a

wound and it's trying to heal the wound

and and and that entire process one can

now conceive Michael 11's podcast on

saying all that's happening is the

cancer cell is actually just a regular

cell that's doing what it supposed to do

which all the cells have been doing

since we were like

protozoans uh which is once it believes

it's autonomous it will do anything to

survive that's what evolution has done

inside of our bodies so if you have this

basically Detachment from the electric

or bioelectric Harmony that in itself

has its own communication outside of

exosomes and and signaling uh you know

with cells around the environment then

it's almost like can you blame it for

doing exactly what we're programmed to

do when it now feels you know foreign or

or autonomous I I don't like to give the

cancer uh uh a brain a brain

that's more theological which doesn't

doesn't fit with our understanding

evolutionary biology but when you say

it's if falling back all the all the

cells that existed on the planet before

oxygen came into the atmosphere were

fermenters uh so the fermentation

pathways are the most ancient Pathways

for energy there was no oxygen so when

you have no oxygen how do you get energy

and it's through substrate level

phosphor relations which are ancient

Pathways and as I said when you are

fermenting glucose and glutamine you're

using substrate level phosphor relations

these are ancient Pathways um uh and the

cancer cells are simply falling back on

on these and they exist in all of our

cells in tiny little they don't play a

major role but they're there but in the

cancer they become dominant because the

organel that was controlling the

differentiated state has lost control

cells fall back on their default state

which is proliferation driven by

fermentation energy through substrate

level phosphorilation this is ancient

Pathways of energy met metabolism that

the that the cell and they cify the

micro environment creating a world of

difficulty for those trying to manage

the disorder but once you understand

biological evolution and biochemistry

all the stuff to to manage cancer makes

should be done and can make a lot of

sense and be very very effective problem

is most people don't know that or can't

I don't know it's just I know it I

understand it and uh uh uh I'm trying to

tell the world that this is not an

insurmountable problem this is a very

logical way to manage this dis disase

based on your understanding of

evolutionary biology and biochemistry

and and warberg had it right mostly and

we're correcting where he made his

mistakes oh he C made a couple of

mistakes but we're fixing those mistakes

and we're going to come out with a new

uh uh showing how warberg hypothesis

merge now into the mitochondrial

metabolic theory of cancer and it will

replace the somatic mutation theory of

cancer and then you're going to see

death rates drop and people living

longer and being healthier and and this

is just the future and you you will be

part of this future once you once you

get to know this your patients are going

to love what you're doing to them and

helping them out but if if the system

allows you to do that if the system

doesn't allow you to do that then you're

going to be a very frustrated person

yeah Tom I appreciate it so much I'm

just always humbled mind blown M mind

rattling after speaking of you this is

it's exhausting in the sense in all the

good reasons but it's almost like an

existential it's a professional

existential crisis that's the way I

would Define it well I wish other

members of your profession would have

the same feeling we'll get there we'll

make it out hope so

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