Should You Take Vitamin K and Vitamin D Together
Summary
TLDRIn this video, Dr. Brad and Dr. Paul discuss the relationship between vitamin D and vitamin K2, emphasizing the potential dangers of high vitamin D doses. They explain that vitamin K2, found in foods like chicken, cheese, and natto, helps regulate calcium levels in the body, promoting bone health and potentially reducing arterial plaque. While observational studies suggest benefits, randomized control trials are lacking. They advise caution with supplements and recommend a balanced diet, suggesting K2's safety but urging skepticism without definitive evidence.
Takeaways
- 💊 Vitamin D and K2 are often discussed together, but their relationship and necessity for supplementation is complex.
- ⚠️ High doses of vitamin D can be dangerous, unlike non-fat soluble vitamins which are excreted in urine.
- 🥬 Vitamin K1 is commonly found in green leafy and cruciferous vegetables.
- 🩸 Vitamin K plays a crucial role in blood clotting, interacting with medications like Warfarin.
- 🐓 Vitamin K2, specifically MK4 and MK7, is found in foods like chicken, cheese, butter, eel, and fermented soy products like natto.
- 📉 The natural sources of Vitamin K2, particularly in animal products, are decreasing due to changes in animal diets.
- 🚫 There is no reliable test for vitamin K2 levels in the blood.
- 🦴 Vitamin K2 helps regulate calcium in the body, promoting its absorption into bones and reducing it in the bloodstream.
- 🔬 While there are potential benefits of K2 for bone health, especially in postmenopausal women, its effects on arterial health are less clear.
- 💼 The vitamin K2 supplement industry is large and growing, but lacks definitive proof from randomized control trials.
- 🥗 A healthy diet rich in green leafy vegetables and fermented foods is a safer and potentially more effective approach than supplementation.
Q & A
What is the main topic discussed in the video?
-The video discusses vitamin D and vitamin K, their functions, and the potential benefits and safety of taking them as supplements.
What are the potential dangers of taking large doses of vitamin D?
-Large doses of vitamin D can be dangerous because it is a fat-soluble vitamin that can accumulate in the body, unlike water-soluble vitamins that are excreted in urine.
What is the difference between vitamin K1 and K2?
-Vitamin K1 is commonly found in green leafy vegetables and is associated with blood clotting. Vitamin K2 has different subtypes like MK4 and MK7, and it is involved in regulating calcium in the body.
Why should people taking warfarin be cautious with vitamin K consumption?
-Warfarin, also known as Coumadin, is an anticoagulant that works by depleting vitamin K, which is essential for blood clotting. High vitamin K intake can counteract the effects of warfarin.
What are some dietary sources of vitamin K2?
-Dietary sources of vitamin K2 include chicken, cheese, butter, eel, natto (a fermented soy product), and fermented foods like sauerkraut.
Why is it challenging to get vitamin K2 from animal sources today?
-Many animals are fed grains instead of grazing on greens, which leads to lower K2 content in their meat and dairy products.
How does vitamin K2 help regulate calcium in the body?
-Vitamin K2 aids in the carboxylation of proteins like osteocalcin and Matrix GLA protein, which helps promote calcium absorption into bones and reduces calcium in the bloodstream.
What is the current evidence regarding the benefits of vitamin K2 supplements?
-The evidence for the benefits of vitamin K2 supplements is primarily from observational studies, and there is a lack of randomized control trials to definitively prove their effectiveness.
Who might benefit from taking vitamin K2 and vitamin D3 together?
-Postmenopausal women with osteoporosis might benefit from taking vitamin K2 and vitamin D3 together to improve bone quality and density.
What is the stance of the doctors in the video on taking vitamin K2 supplements for the average person?
-The doctors suggest that the average person should proceed with caution when considering vitamin K2 supplements, as there is no definitive evidence that they are better than a healthy balanced diet.
Why are there no large randomized control trials for vitamin K2 supplements despite the industry's size?
-The absence of large randomized control trials could indicate that supplement companies are not confident in the results proving the effectiveness of their products.
Outlines
💊 Vitamin K2 and D: The Synergy Debate
Dr. Brad and Dr. Paul discuss the common belief about the need to take Vitamin K2 with Vitamin D supplements. They clarify that while Vitamin D is popular and can be dangerous in large doses, Vitamin K (specifically K1 and K2) is a fat-soluble vitamin that can accumulate in the body. Vitamin K1 is prevalent in green leafy vegetables and is crucial for blood clotting, which is why people on blood-thinning medications like Warfarin need to monitor their intake. The doctors also touch on the confusion between Vitamin K and the element Potassium (K). Vitamin K2, with its subtypes MK4 and MK7, is found in foods like chicken, cheese, butter, eel, and natto. They note the decrease in K2 levels due to animals being fed grains instead of greens and emphasize the lack of a direct test for K2 levels.
🩺 Vitamin K2: Beyond Coagulation
The doctors delve into the functions of Vitamin K2 beyond its role in blood clotting. They explain that K2 aids in regulating calcium levels in the body, which is vital for maintaining bone health and preventing arterial issues like atherosclerosis. Vitamin D increases calcium in the bloodstream, but K2, through carboxylation of proteins osteocalcin and Matrix GLA protein, helps direct this calcium into the bones and out of the blood vessels. Despite the known biochemical effects, clinical trials have not conclusively proven the health benefits of K2 supplementation, especially for conditions like osteoporosis. They highlight the discrepancy between observational studies, which often lack causative evidence, and randomized control trials, which are more reliable but scarce for K2.
🥗 Vitamin K2 Supplementation: Necessary or Not?
In this segment, the doctors address whether the average person without specific medical conditions should supplement with Vitamin K2. They discuss the lack of solid evidence from randomized control trials on the effects of K2 on arterial health and valve calcification. They also mention that while K2 might help with bone health, particularly for postmenopausal women, its impact on vascular health is less clear. The doctors suggest that a healthy diet rich in green leafy vegetables and fermented foods might be more beneficial than supplementation. They advise caution with K2 supplements due to the lack of definitive trials and the potential for industry bias in research. They conclude by emphasizing the importance of a balanced diet over supplements and invite viewers to share their experiences or opinions on the matter.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Vitamin D
💡Vitamin K
💡Vitamin K1
💡Vitamin K2
💡MK4 and MK7
💡Coagulation
💡Fermented Foods
💡Arterial Stiffness
💡Randomized Control Trials (RCTs)
💡Observational Studies
💡Supplements
Highlights
Vitamin D is not as safe as people think, especially in large doses.
Vitamin K is a fat-soluble vitamin that can build up in the body if taken in excess.
Vitamin K1 is commonly found in green leafy vegetables and cruciferous vegetables.
Vitamin K plays a role in blood clotting and is important for those on blood-thinning medications.
Vitamin K2 has different types, with MK4 and MK7 being the most significant for health benefits.
Sources of Vitamin K2 include chicken, cheese, butter, eel, and fermented foods like natto and sauerkraut.
Vitamin K2 helps regulate calcium in the body, promoting its absorption into bones and reducing it in the bloodstream.
There is no reliable test for Vitamin K2 levels in the blood.
Vitamin K2, along with D3, may benefit postmenopausal women's bone density, but its impact on fracture reduction is unclear.
Observational studies suggest a link between high Vitamin K2 intake and less arterial calcification.
There is no solid evidence from randomized control trials that Vitamin K2 reduces arterial stiffness or valve calcification.
Vitamin K2 is safe even in high doses, with the exception for those on blood-thinning medications.
The supplement industry for Vitamin K2 is large and growing, yet lacks definitive proof from randomized control trials.
Eating a healthy, balanced diet may be more beneficial than taking Vitamin K2 supplements.
There is a need for more research and randomized control trials to establish the benefits of Vitamin K2.
The hosts encourage viewers to rely on randomized control trials for evidence and to maintain a healthy diet.
Transcripts
do you need to take vitamin K2 with your
Vitamin D supplements like a synergistic
effect or something a lot of people
think you do okay well let's figure it
out okay welcome to talking with docs
I'm Dr Brad weening and I'm Dr Paul Z
okay so today we're going to talk about
vitamin D which is a very common common
topic we're actually do another video
later on about some of the dangers of
vitamin D because it's not as safe as
everybody thinks that's the first thing
no and big doses it can be dang big
doses can be dangerous and then we're
going to talk about vitamin K and how
they work together to do a bunch of
different things in our body okay I see
what you did
there the beginning okay so K when we
talking about vitamin K we're talking
about vit K1 or K2 right but don't get
this confused with K which is potassium
potassium right right so don't get
confused with the element on the
periodic table I think 19 possibly but
its symbol is a capital K capital K A
little plus sign yeah right so we're not
talking about vit we're not talking
about potassium we're talking about
vitamin K which is a fat soluble vitamin
we've talked before there are four of
them a d e k or ad mhm um problem with
fat soluble vitamins is they can store
up and build up in your body if you take
too much of it right unlike the nonfat
soluble vitamins that you're excreted in
your urine so you can take as much as
you want and you'll pee out the excess
not the case with a d e or k not the K
right you did it again question okay so
K1 is the one that's most common this is
the one that we're familiar with um and
this is is commonly found in green leafy
vegetables and cruciferous vegetables so
you can imagine people that have a high
consumption of these Foods often have
better health indices and are going to
have vitamin K levels that are okay
right interesting about vitamin K
another thing within medicine is that it
relates to your clotting Factor we've
talked about this before that German
word coagulation so people that are on
warrin or cumin typically for something
called atrial fibrillation to thin their
blood or prevent from clotting have to
be careful with their vitamin K
consumption right we and as residents
and because you know and early in our
careers we used to administer quite a
lot of vitamin K a lot because a lot of
people were using warin which is rat
poison um also known as Coumadin uh to
thin their blood if they had conditions
that needed it to be done like you
mentioned atrial fibrillation and that
there are newer anti-coagulants now
indicated for those things so it's we're
seeing less and less and less people on
war print uh however when some came in
on Warf their blood was thin but we had
to do surgery on them so to reverse it
one of the ways we would reverse it was
to give vitamin K IV or orally and
because it competitively inhibits they
they compete with each other for for
receptors so if you're on Warf you've
depleted your vitamin K and so we used
to give vitamin K to counteract the
orphin so that we could operate on them
and they wouldn't bleed excessively yeah
and competitive inhibition is kind of
like two people having a key and trying
to get to like a lock and if cumin in's
there vitamin K come in kind of push it
out of the the way or or assume the
position of that lock to help your blood
coagulate normally because obviously we
can't do surgery if people don't have
the ability to stop beding competitive
inhibition which is what we often try
and do with each other when we're try to
say the same thing on a video that's
right appr it happens it happens let me
say it okay so then so that that's
mostly the the K1 side so K2 because
it's not confusing enough you have come
with the K subscript wait so K subscript
2 there's actually like 10 some people
would say even 12 different types of K2
okay so there's two important ones ones
that you'll see a lot on videos like
these or on other research uh number
four MK4 and mk7 and MK2 is called
menaquinone and K one's called phin so
good with the big words they really like
the big names so MK4 and mk7 are the
ones that are thought to be most
responsible for the health benefits that
we're going to talk about so before we
do that where where do where do we find
K2 can we find it in our diet yeah we
can really okay where this is one where
the chicken wing may have a role chicken
has a high concentration of K2 compared
to other Foods right so particularly
compared to Pork and Beef so in the in
the meat category the chicken wing is
better but things like cheese and butter
and eel and then a soy a fermented soy
product called natto apparently it's not
very good to eat a lot of people talk
about how it's slimy and tastes weird I
like to put that on my eel when I eat
the eel yeah that's right and then the
last one is other fermented foods like
sauerkraut so the trouble with relying
on animal sources for this is that as
mammals what happens is they take in
Greens like grass and then they bowels
convert them through bacteria and every
specific enzyme that converts the K2 but
because more and more animals are being
fed grain as opposed to just grazing
around their K2 continents are going
down um so that makes it a little bit
tricky that's why I only eat the chicken
wing from a kale fed chickens so yes
it's hard to find yes interesting one
cup of kale actually has all of your
daily requirement of vitamin K which and
Zero taste that's right is your the RDA
for Vitamin K is actually 90 to 120
depending on male or female um and they
actually don't specifically address the
RDA for K2 because um a lot of of
research does not necessarily show a
specific benefit at this point can you
imagine K2 in the blood so very good
question there's not a reliable test so
if I'm a supplement company I'm pretty
happy about that saying listen I think
your K2 is low want to take the
supplement how do I know why I can't
test it there are some indirect ways to
test um kils and that's car o ilation of
ocalin but because if you have a bunch
of ocalin that's around and not
carboxilate then some people say well
that can translate into yeah low K2 but
there's not a good direct test so this
is one of the plights of the whole K2
argument really right okay so what does
K2 do what is what does K2 do different
than coagulation what's the purpose of
it uh K2 helps you regulate the calcium
in your body right it helps you
um with and and and calcium in the body
is stored mostly in the bones yes and we
like it in the bones it's not so great
if it gets out into the bloodstream and
gets very high levels of calcium in the
bloodstream because that can go into
your arteries that can cause plaques and
that contribute to atherosclerosis heart
disease stroke and all those vascular
diseases that we talk about right so
vitamin D gets that calcium up when it's
consumed with fat gets that calcium up
into our bloodstream and we talked in
another video about how calcium
supplements cause high spikes of this
and that's an issue but what happens is
there are two proteins called
osteocalcin and Matrix GLA protein where
they require vitamin K2 to carboxilate
them and make them active and this helps
promote calcium going into the bones and
actually out of the bloodstream um into
the into the bones rather than sitting
in those vessels or calcifying the walls
because we talk about arterial stiffness
being an issue and calcification of the
plaques being in is shoe so you can see
those two good things because if you
have osteoporosis you have poor bone
mineral density increasing the calcium
in the bone helps that strengthens your
bone and helps you resist fragility
fractures at the same time getting it
out of the blood keeps it out of your
artery right so those seem like really
good things obviously everyone should
take vitamin D and calcium and K2 right
well that's the problem we we know some
of the mechanisms that happen but so so
much of the time we know mechanisms of
things and then when we go to translate
to health benefits that's where the link
is broken right and you can say oh yeah
we see all the biochemical things that
happen so if we just give a supplement
less people should die and less people
should break their bones that is what
we're having difficulty proving
especially with K2 and a lot of the
studies for K2 to um particularly our
observational studies so where they
assess people's dietary patterns and
sometimes they'll give them supplements
and a lot of these studies are sponsored
by the supplement company so K2
supplement business in 2022 was about
$700 million estimated to get to $2
billion by 2030 and a lot of it is
driven by social media and videos
exactly like this where people be like
hey click on the link and get 10% off my
K2 Brad and Paul's K2 um we do not have
any of those types of products or
sponsorships and really complicates the
landscape so observational daa where you
say well look this group of people we
think they look like this and they don't
have this so it's because of this well
here's an example give us an example so
if you're watching professional golf on
a Sunday you say well these guys all
have long pants they got shoes with
little spikes on the bottom they're
wearing a golf shirt they have a hat
they're professional golfers well if I
put on a hat and a golf shirt long pair
of pants and some golf shoes that does
not make me a professional golfer it
makes me look like a professional golfer
but I'm not a professional golf and
that's the difference between
observational research and a randomized
devil blind control trial in a human
which is the gold standard so until you
have that you can't really say
definitively that something uh has proof
however it doesn't mean that K2 does not
do this stuff it just means that we
can't prove it definitively at this
point these observational studies Are
One Step Up from observational humor
Jerry Seinfeld style right I like Jerry
St to so if you go to Pub M the National
Library of Congress where they document
all the papers and the research articles
if you limmit it to randomized control
trials it comes up with actually 15 and
all of them are about about bone right
now right so when you're doing K2 and D3
together and so what does it show
looking through all of them my takeaway
is that the one group of people that has
shown to benefit from K2 and D3 together
would be postmenopausal women with
respect to
osteoporosis and Bone quality bone
density but it does not necessarily
reduce the incidence of fractures right
right that's the thing we can see
biomechanical biochemical effects but we
can't translate it into a good clinical
outcome and that's like many of the
supplements right interesting but there
are some people in cases where we do
administer K2 we talked about well we
talked about vitamin K1 we give uh when
people came in on warrin with the thin
blood and newborns as well often we get
a k injection as well because it doesn't
cross the placenta very well and there
may be medical conditions that you are
on okay for those medical conditions
prescribe by your family doctor or your
Healthcare professional that's fine
we're talking about supplements for the
average person uh with no significant
related medical conditions should they
be taking vitamin K right can we go to
the bottom line yet or we there no not
yet with respect to the Cardiology side
so things like arterial stiffness
calcification of the ortic valve as well
as calcification of the vessels
themselves a lot of observational data
no good solid randomized control trial
to prove this actually recently there
was a trial for Ric valve calcification
that did not show a difference that was
very very disappointing for a lot of
people who thought certainly it was
going to and there are specific
populations where the incidence of valve
calcification is very high particularly
renal patients and dialis patients
they've done some studies in this group
of people to say hey if we give them K2
can we suck some of that calcium out of
their vessels and it has not been proven
so I think there's more to learn about
this I think if you're so I guess the
take- home for me is that taking K2 I
think has some potential benefits I
think it could help your bones at this
point more than it can help your vessels
but not sure about the vessel side
because a lot of the people that have
healthy vessels are already eating
healthy diets green leafy vegetables
cruciferous vegetables wide variety of
of plants as well as less animal
products this leads to better yeah
that's my take-home that's now after all
the research and all these supplements I
go into it thinking is this thing going
to prove to me that this supplement is
better than eating a healthy balanced
diet right and then that's sort of the
benchmark I said and no definitely K
doesn't meet that requirement for me and
if and if you think about it why is
there no double blinded randomized
control trial it doesn't make sense that
there isn't one because the companies
that make these supplements have a lot
of money because it's a big industry
they could easily fund one of those
trials but you wouldn't fund one of
those trials if you were one of those
companies and not confident that the
results would prove that your supplement
tricky is is good and then they so you
should be a little bit weary that there
aren't big randomized control trials
proving these things that's right and
time's going to show because there are a
lot of ongoing ones and like we said
there's been some observational data
that's shown like there's one that a lot
of people quote the Rotterdam study
where they shown that people with high
K2 intake do have less um calcification
of their vessels but it's not an RCT
it's observational data so the good news
is vitamin K2 is very safe um so even if
you took very very high doses the odds
of it causing damage to you would be low
unless you're on cumin um it does have
an Associated cost um but I think I
think proceed with caution and I think
we'll we'll keep our eyes and ears open
and if something else comes up happy to
share yeah and leave a comment if you
have some experience or anecdotal data
or you agree or completely disagree but
don't get mad people are going to get
mad and say well I saw this guy and he
said I have to take K2 um we're all
about the randomized control trials so
show us show us the data show me the
evidence there now you know if you like
this video please like it subscribe to
our Channel and remember you are in
charge of your own health just eat a
good diet there you go we'll see you
next time
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