Wheeler Interviews Joe Raelin on Leadership
Summary
TLDRIn this discussion, experts explore the future of learning and work, highlighting the evolving nature of education and leadership. They emphasize the growing importance of work-based learning, informal knowledge acquisition, and the potential return of apprenticeship models. The conversation touches on the balance between cognitive learning and practical experience, the limitations of traditional classroom settings, and the role of mentorship. They also consider how virtual learning might complement real-world practice and the sociological shifts in how younger generations engage with technology for education and work.
Takeaways
- đ§âđ« Work-based learning, akin to old-school on-the-job training, is poised for a comeback as a core learning method.
- đ§ Learning is not just about acquiring knowledge from books; it also happens during the practice of a task, developing meta-skills and creativity.
- đ There needs to be a balance between academic/cognitive learning and hands-on, practical experiences to truly grasp complex skills.
- đ©âđ« The concept of generic competencies for training employees is limited; true learning often arises organically from direct work experience.
- đ§ A hybrid of structured academic learning with mentorship/apprenticeship models could be the future of education in corporate environments.
- đšâđ« Mentorship should focus on engagement and dialogue, not just storytelling or sharing expertise. The mentorâs role is to be a listener and facilitator.
- đĄ The internet is a great resource for information, but deeper learning, reflection, and application still require personal interaction and practice.
- đ The apprenticeship model is likely to reemerge in corporate training, offering real-time, practice-based learning environments.
- đŹ Online learning and virtual universities are gaining popularity, but replicating face-to-face, dialogic interaction in a virtual space is still a challenge.
- đ Social networks and relational aspects of work are becoming more important, influencing how we view both careers and learning.
Q & A
What is the primary focus of the conversation?
-The conversation primarily focuses on the future of learning and education, particularly in the context of workforce development, leadership, and work-based learning models.
How does the speaker view the future of learning?
-The speaker believes that learning will shift toward more work-based or on-the-job learning (OJT), with an emphasis on practical, experiential learning rather than purely academic or classroom-based methods.
What is the role of informal learning in the speaker's perspective?
-The speaker views informal learning as essential, arguing that knowledge often arises through practical engagement and problem-solving rather than from formal instruction alone.
How does the speaker differentiate between formal and informal learning?
-Formal learning is seen as structured, classroom-based, and cognitive, whereas informal learning arises from the practice of work itself, helping learners deal with 'imponderables' or challenges encountered during real-world tasks.
What concerns do some people have about informal learning models?
-Some people worry that informal learning alone might not be enough to build necessary skills and that new employees might need structured mentorship or formal training to properly learn how to navigate workplace challenges.
What does the speaker believe is key to sustainable learning?
-The speaker believes that sustainable learning comes from a combination of academic instruction and hands-on, practical experience, with mentorship playing a critical role in helping learners navigate complex situations.
What is the speaker's view on the corporate competency model?
-The speaker is skeptical about the corporate focus on generic competencies, arguing that true expertise and skill development come from real-world, contextual experience rather than from a predefined set of competencies.
How does the speaker propose improving mentorship in the workplace?
-The speaker advocates for a model where mentors engage more through active listening and dialogue rather than simply sharing their experiences or 'war stories.' This helps mentees develop their own critical thinking and problem-solving skills.
How does the speaker feel about virtual and online learning?
-The speaker sees virtual and online learning as having potential, especially in bringing together people from different cultures and societies. However, they believe these platforms still need to evolve to replicate the richness of in-person dialogue and hands-on experience.
What is the co-op program, and why does the speaker support it?
-A co-op program combines academic learning with practical, work-based experience by alternating between classroom studies and real job placements. The speaker supports this model because it allows students to apply their learning in real-world settings, making their education more relevant and impactful.
Outlines
đ Exploring the Future of Learning and Work
In this opening discussion, the speakers reconnect and delve into the future of learning, education, and leadership. One speaker highlights the importance of lifelong learning for a competitive workforce. They question whether learning will look the same in the future and whether traditional methods will be enough. The conversation hints at a return to work-based learning, reminiscent of on-the-job training (OJT). The core debate is about whether knowledge is something taught in classrooms or gained through practice.
đ The Role of Informal Learning and Bricolage
The conversation shifts to informal learning, referencing Jay Cross's philosophy of learning by doing, such as picking up a camera to learn photography. The speaker emphasizes the need for a balance between cognitive learning and practical experience, arguing that book learning alone isn't enough. They introduce the concept of 'bricolage,' a method of figuring things out with available tools, and stress the importance of mentors to guide learners through real-life challenges and complex problem-solving.
đą Competency-Based Learning and the Corporate World
The discussion moves to corporate training, where the speakers critique the reliance on generic competencies in corporate settings. They argue that real learning arises organically through work experience, not just from formal training programs. They discuss the challenge of balancing executive demands for formal education with more practical, on-the-job learning. Mentorship and experiential learning are highlighted as more effective than formal instruction for leadership development and problem-solving in real-world contexts.
đ§âđ« Mentorship Models: Formal vs Informal
The focus here is on mentorship and whether it should be formalized or occur naturally. The speakers prefer organic mentorship but acknowledge that not all mentors are effective. They argue that the best mentors are listeners and facilitators of learning, rather than simply storytellers or experts. True learning comes from inquiry and engagement. The conversation highlights the importance of communication and how it can create a foundation for new learning, especially in mentorship relationships.
đ Higher Education and Work Integrated Learning
Higher education's role in learning is examined, with a focus on Northeastern Universityâs co-op programs, which combine classroom learning with work experience. The speaker advocates for this model, where students alternate between academic studies and real-world employment, allowing them to apply classroom knowledge practically. Despite these programs, most higher education still follows traditional methods, relying on classroom-based knowledge transfer, which the speakers believe is outdated.
đ The Rise of Online and Virtual Learning
The conversation addresses the growth of online universities and virtual learning environments, such as the University of Phoenix. While acknowledging their popularity, especially in graduate programs like MBAs, the speakers question whether online education can replicate the richness of face-to-face learning. They recognize the benefits of virtual learning but express doubts about whether it can fully recreate the dynamic, collaborative engagement needed for deep learning, especially when it comes to hands-on skills.
đ The Changing Landscape of Work and Learning
In the concluding remarks, the speakers predict that both work and learning will evolve to emphasize relational aspects. They discuss how social networks and stakeholder engagement will increasingly influence career paths and learning. As our understanding of work changes, so will our approach to education, which will need to incorporate diverse sources of knowledge and collaboration. They anticipate a shift away from traditional, individualistic approaches toward more interconnected and socially informed learning models.
Mindmap
Keywords
đĄWork-based learning
đĄFuture of learning
đĄCompetencies
đĄInformal learning
đĄMentorship
đĄApprenticeship model
đĄMeta-competencies
đĄKnowledge transfer
đĄVirtual learning
đĄCompetency movement
Highlights
Discussion on the future of learning and education with a focus on continuous learning for staying competitive in the workforce.
Exploration of work-based learning as a return to the old days of on-the-job training (OJT), which is seen as more sustainable for long-term learning.
Debate on whether knowledge is something that is simply transferred or if it is acquired through practice and experience.
Mention of the cognitive component of learning but emphasis on the insufficiency of formal learning alone, suggesting the need for informal learning alongside it.
Introduction of the idea of 'bricolage' â the concept of figuring out how to work with available tools, a skill that requires practice and often the guidance of a mentor.
Importance of mentorship and learning from situational experiences in the workplace, similar to old apprenticeship models.
Discussion on the failure of generic competencies in corporate training to solve real problems, advocating for organic, work-derived competencies instead.
Proposal to bring new workers into the fold by observing experts in action and having a dialogue around these real-time learning experiences.
The issue of formal vs. informal mentoring and the need for mentors who engage in active listening and dialogue rather than simply relaying war stories.
The role of the internet as a source of data and facts but not a replacement for contextual learning, reasoning, and problem-solving in real situations.
The outdated 'data-dumping' model of teaching, with a shift towards the teacher as a facilitator of knowledge emerging from practice.
Co-op programs like those at Northeastern University as an example of successful models that intersperse classroom learning with real-world work experience.
The rise of virtual universities and online learning platforms, their growing role in higher education, and questions about whether they can fully replicate face-to-face engagement.
Challenges of maintaining effective synchronous communication in online learning across different time zones and cultures.
Speculation on the future of education and work, emphasizing relational aspects of careers and the integration of social networks and stakeholder relationships into learning models.
Transcripts
guys okay Joe good to good to see you
again it's been a while it's been fun to
be with you again yeah it's been great
to catch up and you know as you know I'm
always really curious about uh your
thoughts on where things are going
around learning education leadership uh
and I know you've done lots of work in
research in that area so you know one of
the themes that the Institute that we
focus on is the future of learning
future of
Education um you know we think it's uh a
Cornerstone of the future Workforce that
it's going to be a uh a very continuous
process of learning in order to stay
competitive so just like where do you
think it's where's learning heading is
it is it going to look like it does
today in 5 years is it going to look
different uh how is it going to look
different if it is um you know what are
your thoughts well uh as you know I'm
I'm a kind of work-based learning guy
and in some respect specs where we could
think about this as a throwback to the
old days you remember the old days of
OJT on the job learning I think that's
going to come
back um and part of this is is really
a a debate about what does knowledge
represent what does it mean is it
something that is lodged in the
brain and it gets acquired when you
acquire it from someone else or is it
something that can uh occur in the midst
of practice itself so I'm on that end of
the spectrum as you know and I think
there's something very magical about
work that uh uh can produce the kind of
learning that is sustainable and that
can help us in in the future as we uh
develop ourselves and we develop the
necessary creativity that we need okay
for progress in the United States let me
let me ask you this because this has
comes up a lot in my talks with um I
think you know Jay Cross and his work in
informal learning and you know Jay's
sort of philosophy is that uh it's it's
similar in a way in the fact that you
know if I want to learn to be a uh a
photographer yeah I should just pick up
the camera and go take pictures right
right uh and in a way that's on the job
of training and learning right um but I
think there's got to be more than that
to it right yeah I think there's a
cognitive component as well um but on
the other hand it may not be sufficient
to just uh feel that you're going to be
able to acquire the necessary even meta
skills to be able to perform well in the
workforce and what whatever your career
might may be by just studying things
that come out of a book uh because again
that's the form of learning that we
would call permanent but I consider
informal learning to be that form of
learning that derives from more from
more fluid forms of knowledge and this
is knowledge that occurs as we work on
those imponderables those those
difficult things that seem to kind of
sty us as we uh as we try to make our
way a um an anthropologist the French
Anthropologist named Levy Strauss
referred to this as bricolage right and
so this is kind of uh figuring out you
know how to kind of work with the tools
that you have at your own disposal and
it's something that's not easy for a
novice so it does help to have a teacher
a mentor an instructor to help you learn
to make those situational
discriminations that can help you work
your way and learn your way out of
difficult problems uh but I think it's
some kind of combination of the of the
academic the classroom the the more the
more cognitive kind of conceptual basis
of learning with the practice I mean you
know I do a lot of work in the corporate
world as you know and you know one of
the things that we run into all the time
you know some look up and say okay I I I
agree I I hate lectures I hate all this
formal stuff that we're doing uh but you
know the senior management team wants
everybody every leader to learn this
stuff
yeah uh as so how can you construct
something that would meet those needs
and yet be
more OJT or whatever well uh that uh
that lies uh within the the field or the
discipline that sometimes we refer to as
the competency movement and and there is
this view among some Executives and
people even in the HR field as you know
that feel that all you have to do is
come up with this set of generic
competencies and teach those
competencies to our to our staff to our
managerial staff and of course we'll all
be on the same team exactly right but uh
I I don't think that uh
enshrining knowledge as it were in a set
of generic competencies is going to be
able to get us off square one when it
comes to dealing with what did I call it
the imponderables the things that kind
of really sty us it's that experience
that we have sometimes when we're we're
stuck right what we need are uh more uh
meta competencies or organic
competencies that arise from doing the
work itself of which you are the expert
youve you've become the expert because
of your focus and concentration right so
I like to see uh the more Progressive
executive realized that this competency
is not going to come from some kind of
generic set of uh pieces of knowledge
but something that is going to arise
from people doing their own specific
work okay okay so I'm the learning
manager at Corporation X and I agree
with you y how do I do
it right well uh what you could do would
be uh to bring people in kind of some
kind of Observer or research capacity
and have them kind of uh observe and uh
inquire about people as they're doing
the work right and around the the list
that might be produced or the set of
meta companies that might reproduce you
could then bring others in who are new
to the practice and this I guess is the
concern how do you bring new people into
the practice that can can can uptake
almost as quickly as those that are
currently uh expert and have a convers
have a dialogue about this experience
and this then becomes kind of like this
uh
mentorship experience that we remember
from the old days of apprenticeship and
I think it's that kind of uh a realtime
model that I think is going to be far
more powerful than taking people sending
them away you know to some artificial
place where they're going to apparently
learn the compe and come learn the and
come back cuz when they come back going
to happen they're going to unlearn most
of the things because they probably
don't apply to the absolutely and that
of course takes place especially in the
domain of leadership softer absolutely
but you know one of our predictions uh
uh that we did a year or so ago was that
there'll be a return to the
apprenticeship model in the corporate
world I can't agree with you yeah yeah
uh I mean I really I really do um think
that the people in the training world
today in the corporate right world are
struggling with
um a concept that Executives have that
whatever education we deliver should be
like what I got yeah whenever I got my
Executive Education right uh which was
almost for sure formal classroom based
and generic that's right that's right um
and they don't realize how much they
actually learned as they were as they
were doing doing right and so I think
the real challenge uh is um to kind of
build Mentor programs and
um you know one of the questions that we
just got asked the the other day well
should these be formal or informal
should you have specifically appointed
mentors or should it just sort of arise
accidentally what are your thoughts of
oh wow yeah
um I think it's nice when it arises
naturally but I don't think people are
automatically great mentors or coaches
as we know right uh often what happens
in action learning for example when
we're looking for coaches and sponsors
of programs and we bring people in from
the corporate world they feel because of
their immersion in the classroom model
that the way to do it is to tell War
Stories right this is how I would do it
young lad or young
last but uh really the mentorship role
is to be the listener isn't it right and
to kind of engage and it's this
engagement this dialogue this inquiry
that is going to be the base of learning
I mean community communication probably
is the fundamental uh resource that we
have to produce uh new learning um so we
need mentors and coaches to to operate
out of that domain not out of a domain
of uh being the expert who can tell you
what you need to I think that expert
knowledge thing is the is the hard one
and I've heard a lot of people say well
you know this guy wants to be a mentor
yeah and he thinks he's an expert but
he's not right and I'm afraid if I let
him Mentor that he'll
corrupt this person right or or they're
not going to learn the right thing you
know so you know I think the I keep
going back and saying you know to me the
internet's the great yeah um Informer if
you want data or facts right or
information you can get that from let's
just say for sake of Simplicity from the
internet right um what you can't get
from the Internet is that thinking about
what that means or how that plays out
that
in the instant case in the in that yes
and so I think the issue is really to
forget that the uh I think our old model
was Professor teacher is a data dumper
yeah and my job as a teacher is to dump
everything I know into your head right
right um and I that's probably not a
valid model I'd like to hear your
thoughts on that and uh what's probably
more valid is that that teacher has to
be more like a Socrates you know yeah I
I think of the teacher uh probably the
ideal teacher role is being the
facilitator the orchestrator of a series
of events from which knowledge can
emerge from the practice itself and what
would be the practice it's again it's
not just uh people having a nice debate
about you know a passage in a book but
it would be really nice if the practice
were engagement in you know whatever the
craft is that people could be a
philosophy text or it could be an enging
problem I think it applies across the
board yeah yeah so of course that brings
us to education model of higher
education that I just going to ask you
yeah where's it going what's happened
there well is I mean you've been in the
higher ed formal education space at the
University level for a long time right
um has it changed since you began your
career and and has it changed for the
better or the worse it hasn't changed
very much Kevin uh except that I made
this move to nor Eastern University
because it's one of the better known
co-op programs in the United States uh
better known among very few and how want
explain what a co-op program is well
it's a for for viewers that don't know
about it a co-op program which is called
the sandwich approach in the UK by the
way it's called work integrated learning
in Australia it's a program of studies
where you intersperse your classroom
education with a period of time when you
actually actually do work in the
workforce as just a regular employee and
you get paid for the work and then you
come back and uh presumably when you're
back in the classroom you now have these
these experiences that you can then
relate to the uh to the classroom
experience so this interspersing of both
and I think it's a really a wonderful
model and I would love to see that as
the Stellar model of higher education
but um when you ask me if things change
very much I would say no cuz I have very
many co-op programs so I think we're
still using the tried and true uh
classroom approach where again the the
uh the idea of uh knowledge is a
transfer MH and you know what do you
think about um uh almost sort of in the
side here about the open University
concept or virtual University of Phoenix
or the online universities are they
going to grow and dominate or are they
just a niche or what's well I think
they're they're becoming very popular
we're seeing that of course at the grad
level even in the field that I work in
the NBA for example it's extremely
popular and I think there's a role for
them uh there's an opportunity to bring
people and different societies different
cultures together so we used to talk a
lot about action learning and there's
this kind of New Field called virtual
action learning and although I may have
been a little dubious at times I think
there's some engagement in learning
teams that can be extremely rich mhm
uh I guess the question though is you
know can it uh duplicate the actual
experience of dialogue in the way that
you and I think about it as a kind of
collaborative engagement and I think
that's an area where I think the tools
have to kind of become just a little bit
more sophisticated because it's out of
that dialogue that you create the
practices and the concepts right that
really talk to how we experience the
world and can that be replicated you
know in a virtual
environment it's a great question I it's
a I don't have the answer I don't think
anyone does yet I mean I've seen some
really good uh attempts uh of you know
mostly text based you know online sort
of interaction conversations I've
delivered a course that way right um I
thought it was it was really good in
some ways and that I could um engage
people that would not engage face to
face right uh on the other hand uh you
don't really have that sort of immediacy
of give and take and so forth so and not
to mention when it comes just to kind of
work through some of the technical
skills you need I mean it's almost
Irreplaceable right right right but uh
right in terms of the uh the give and
take that we associate with dialogic
communication uh I think we just need to
kind of uh reach a higher level of of
advancement there but it could be around
the corner yeah I I think it probably is
I think it's partly a technology issue
you can get streaming real time Time
video right uh that changes the whole
game that does and then we have to
overcome you know just minor you might
say incidental concerns like you know
time changes what do you do when you're
communicating with someone who's
sleeping over in India for example yeah
no question at least from a if
synchronicity is your goal if it's an
asynchronous environment we probably
overcome it but yeah and I think the
corporate world has been struggling with
this uh synchronicity issue for quite a
long time how do you how do you do that
right um I think the uh the other um
issue is the sort of the sociological
mindset changes and you know people our
age have a lot more trouble I think
interacting in that world know than the
younger kids do and you know I'm just
I'm I'm I'm expecting that they're going
to be very comfortable in this space and
find it uh maybe maybe as engaging as we
do face to face it'll be interesting to
see
that's going to be fascinating to follow
so I think we're almost out end of our
time so fast we just got started I we
just got started uh any final thoughts
or
uh well if you're going to do your
prediction for uh 2020 on what's uh
education going to look like uh what's
education going to look like what's uh
work going to look like um well just a
couple of thoughts on both uh when it
comes to work I would think that we're
going to include the relational aspects
of work a little bit more in our
thinking in the future uh when it comes
to work and career I think we come from
a tradition maybe it's a western
tradition that you know where the
captain of our own destiny you know and
yet there's so many things that go on to
interfere or intersect with our destiny
our intentions so I think as we uh get
more involved in social networks as we
begin to think about the various
stakeholders that have an impact on our
career I think that will incorporate
some changes in how we even view the
very concept of work yeah and then I
think learning it just follows suit you
know that learning is not just going to
come from a historical Source it's going
to come from some kind of assemblage of
these stakeholders you know to our our
knowledge who uh who role will become
critical in enhancing our own our own
learning yeah thanks so much oh it's
been great it's always great to talk
with you
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