What is Wisdom? Roger Walsh

Summary

In this interview, Roger Walsh, a psychiatrist and scholar, shares his journey from a conventional medical background to exploring the depths of the mind and spirituality. He discusses the transformative power of psychotherapy and contemplative practices, emphasizing the importance of wisdom, which he defines as deep insight into oneself and life's existential issues, coupled with practical skill. Walsh also touches on the current cultural shifts, including gender dynamics and the challenges of fostering community, offering insights into personal and collective growth.

Takeaways

• 🌏 Roger Walsh's journey began in Australia and continued in the United States, where he transitioned from a conventional medical background to exploring psychiatry and psychotherapy.
• 🔍 Walsh was profoundly impacted by his own experiences in psychotherapy, leading him to recognize the vast inner universe within each individual that often goes unexplored.
• 🧘‍♂️ His experiences in California exposed him to a variety of spiritual and contemplative practices, which he found to be unexpectedly beneficial despite his initial skepticism.
• 📚 Walsh's academic pursuits led him to study and integrate both traditional academic disciplines and contemplative practices, focusing on human potential and virtues like love and wisdom.
• 🏞️ He spent time in a monastery in Asia, practicing intensive meditation, which furthered his understanding of contemplative practices and their role in personal development.
• 🤔 Walsh discusses the evolution of academic discussions around spirituality and contemplative practices, noting a growing acceptance and integration within certain fields like psychology.
• 🌱 He emphasizes the importance of community and relationships in personal growth, suggesting that surrounding oneself with wise and virtuous individuals can inspire and support one's own development.
• 🌟 Walsh defines wisdom as a combination of deep insight and understanding of oneself and life's existential issues, coupled with the practical skill to respond effectively and benevolently to these issues.
• 🌱 He suggests that to cultivate wisdom, one should explore various practices and traditions, starting with those that resonate personally, and emphasizes the importance of community and nature in this process.
• 🌐 Walsh touches on the current social and cultural challenges, including the evolving relationship between men and women, and the need for a developmental perspective to navigate these changes.

Q & A

What was Roger Walsh's initial academic background before his exposure to psychiatry and psychotherapy?

Roger Walsh initially had a very conventional medical scientific background with an MD PhD, and he thought he would end up in a neuroscience lab.

How did Roger Walsh's perspective on spirituality evolve during his time in California?

In California, Roger Walsh was influenced by the variety of practices and traditions available. Initially skeptical, he eventually recognized the value of practices like meditation, yoga, and chanting, leading him to explore religious and spiritual traditions more deeply.

What significant realization did Roger Walsh have about his own life during his therapy sessions with Jim Dugan?

Roger Walsh realized that he had been living his life superficially, only from 'here up', and had been unaware of the vast and mysterious inner universe within himself, which he had never explored before.

What was the turning point for Roger Walsh in understanding the value of contemplative practices?

The turning point for Roger Walsh was a moment of insight when he recognized that behind conventional religious institutions were contemplative practices that trained the mind to cultivate the same qualities and capacities as the great founders, saints, and sages.

Why did Roger Walsh decide to take a two-year leave of absence after getting tenure?

After getting tenure, Roger Walsh took a two-year leave of absence to immerse himself in a monastery in Asia for intensive meditation practice, seeking to merge the worlds of academia, psychiatry, and contemplative practices.

What is the common division of wisdom according to Roger Walsh's understanding of Western and some Asian traditions?

According to Roger Walsh, there is a common division of wisdom into two types: insight, which is an intuitive direct seeing and understanding, and practical know-how, which involves skill in responding effectively and benevolently to life's existential issues.

How does Roger Walsh define wisdom in the context of both self-understanding and practical skill?

Roger Walsh defines wisdom as deep insight and understanding of oneself and the central existential issues of life, coupled with practical skill in responding to these issues effectively and benevolently.

What role does benevolence play in the concept of wisdom as described by Roger Walsh?

Benevolence is intimately linked with wisdom, as per Roger Walsh. He suggests that wisdom confers a profound understanding of virtues, and from the perspective of the wise, virtues are the ways of living that make sense, reflecting a deep recognition of one's transpersonal nature and that of others.

What does Roger Walsh suggest as a starting point for someone looking to tap into their potential and gain more wisdom?

Roger Walsh suggests that individuals should seek relationships with mentors and teachers who can support their growth, recognize the potentials available to them, and look for practices they feel drawn to, such as meditation, yoga, or community service.

How does Roger Walsh view the current state of human development in terms of maturity?

Roger Walsh believes that most people are operating way below their potential, suggesting that what we call normality is a form of collective developmental arrest, and that there is a need for fostering psychological maturation and deep insight for wisdom.

What is Roger Walsh's perspective on the current challenges in the relationship between men and women in society?

Roger Walsh sees the current challenges as a reflection of larger social and global changes, with roles and power structures being redefined. He suggests holding a developmental and evolutionary perspective, recognizing the benefits and new problems that arise, and focusing on fair and careful treatment in relationships.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Personal Journey and Discovery of Inner Depths

Roger Walsh shares his personal journey from a conventional medical scientific background to a deep exploration of psychiatry and psychotherapy. He discusses his transformative experiences in California, which led him to realize the vastness of the inner universe, a realm he was previously unaware of. His encounter with Jim Dugan, a master humanistic and existential therapist, profoundly influenced him, prompting a shift in focus towards contemplative practices and spiritual traditions. Walsh's narrative illustrates a transition from a materialistic worldview to one that values inner exploration and the integration of academic knowledge with spiritual wisdom.

05:02

🔍 The Evolution of Spirituality in Academia

Walsh reflects on the changing attitudes towards spirituality in academic circles over the past few decades. He notes a growing acceptance of spiritual practices, particularly mindfulness and yoga, within psychology and academia. He discusses the role of 'gnostic intermediaries,' individuals who deeply immerse themselves in wisdom traditions and can communicate their insights to others. Walsh emphasizes the importance of translating ancient wisdom into contemporary language and concepts, especially in psychology, to make it more accessible and understandable in modern society.

10:06

🧘‍♂️ Cultivating Wisdom and Virtues

The conversation delves into the concept of wisdom, which Walsh defines as a combination of deep insight and understanding of oneself and life's existential issues, along with practical skill in responding to these issues effectively and benevolently. He explains that wisdom is linked to virtues like benevolence and ethics, and that it confers a profound understanding of how to live meaningfully. Walsh suggests that wisdom is not just an individual pursuit but is also intimately connected to community and the collective good, emphasizing the importance of fostering wisdom for societal health and development.

15:09

🌱 Nurturing Personal and Collective Growth

Walsh offers advice on how individuals can begin to tap into their potential and cultivate wisdom. He suggests seeking relationships with mentors and like-minded individuals, recognizing one's potential for growth, and exploring various practices that resonate personally. He mentions the importance of community and nature in fostering growth, as well as the value of solitude and reflection. Walsh also discusses the process of spiritual development, encouraging an open-minded approach to exploring different practices and traditions to find what aligns with one's path.

20:09

🤝 Collective Inquiry and the Healing Power of Community

The discussion turns to the importance of community in fostering individual and collective growth. Walsh highlights various approaches to communal inquiry, from silent reflection to active debate, emphasizing the shared search for truth and understanding. He suggests that the purpose of these communal practices should be heuristic, aimed at collective learning and growth rather than proving individual points. Walsh also touches on the current challenges in forming and maintaining community in the modern era, particularly with the rise of screen time and decreased interpersonal contact.

25:11

👥 Navigating Gender Dynamics and Healthy Masculinity

Walsh addresses the complex issue of gender dynamics, particularly the relationship between men and women in contemporary society. He acknowledges the challenges and role confusion arising from societal changes and the dismantling of traditional gender roles. Walsh discusses the importance of viewing these changes through a developmental lens, recognizing both the benefits and the new problems they present. He also comments on the American Psychological Association's guidelines on working with men, suggesting that a healthy masculinity involves fostering well-being, wisdom, and capacities, and expressing these qualities skillfully and sensitively in relationships.

Keywords

💡Psychiatry

Psychiatry is the medical specialty devoted to the diagnosis, prevention, and treatment of mental disorders. In the context of the video, the speaker's background in psychiatry is pivotal as it led him to explore the mind's deeper aspects beyond conventional medical science. The speaker's psychiatry training in California exposed him to psychotherapy, which became a transformative experience, prompting further exploration into the human psyche and consciousness.

💡Fulbright scholarship

The Fulbright scholarship is an internationally recognized award for students, scholars, and professionals to study, teach, and conduct research abroad. In the script, the speaker mentions coming to the United States on a Fulbright scholarship, which signifies a prestigious academic opportunity that set the stage for his subsequent intellectual and personal growth.

💡Existential therapy

Existential therapy is a form of psychotherapy that addresses issues of existence, such as the search for meaning, freedom, and authenticity. The video references the speaker's experience with Jim Dugan, a master humanistic-existential therapist, whose sensitive approach helped the speaker connect with his inner experiences, leading to profound self-awareness and a realization of the vast inner universe.

💡Contemplative practices

Contemplative practices refer to various methods used to train the mind and cultivate mental, emotional, and spiritual qualities. The speaker discusses how he was drawn to these practices, such as meditation and yoga, which he initially perceived as relics of primitive thinking. However, he later recognized their value in fostering personal growth and connecting with deeper states of consciousness.

💡Wisdom

Wisdom, as discussed in the video, is defined as deep insight and understanding of oneself and the central existential issues of life, coupled with practical skill in responding to these issues effectively and benevolently. The speaker emphasizes the importance of wisdom in navigating life's challenges and the role of contemplative practices and community in fostering it.

💡Post-conventional development

Post-conventional development refers to stages of psychological growth that go beyond the conventional norms of society. The speaker mentions adult developmental psychology and the mapping of post-conventional stages, suggesting that most people operate below their potential and that there is a need for fostering psychological maturation and wisdom.

💡Mindfulness

Mindfulness is a mental practice involving awareness and attention to the present moment without judgment. It is highlighted in the script as an increasingly accepted contemplative practice in academic and psychological circles, indicative of a growing recognition of the value of such practices in modern society.

💡Gnostic intermediary

A gnostic intermediary, as defined by Carl Jung and mentioned in the video, is someone who has immersed themselves in a wisdom tradition to the extent that they can communicate its insights from direct experience to others. The speaker sees himself and others in this role, translating ancient wisdom into contemporary psychological and philosophical terms.

💡Solitude

Solitude in the context of the video refers to the practice of spending time alone for reflection and introspection. The speaker suggests that periods of solitude, potentially aided by journaling, can be instrumental in personal growth and the development of wisdom.

💡Community

Community, as discussed in the video, is essential for individual and collective healing and growth. The speaker reflects on the importance of fostering communities that support personal development and engage in shared inquiry and dialogue, which are crucial in the contemporary social landscape.

💡Masculinity

Masculinity, in the context of the video, is explored in relation to psychological health and the expression of one's capacities in a skillful and joyful manner. The speaker discusses the evolving understanding of masculinity, particularly in light of societal changes and the need for a healthy expression of male identity that aligns with broader psychological well-being.

Highlights

Roger Walsh shares his journey from a conventional medical scientific background to exploring psychiatry and psychotherapy.

Walsh's transformative experience with psychotherapy led to a deep exploration of the mind and inner experiences.

He discusses the profound impact of his therapy with Jim Dugan, a master humanistic existential therapist.

Walsh's realization of the vast inner universe within each individual, previously unknown to him.

The cultural tendency to be out of touch with one's inner depths and the potential within.

Walsh's exploration of multiple practices and traditions, leading to a gravitation towards religious and spiritual paths.

The moment of insight connecting contemplative practices to the development of wisdom and altered states of consciousness.

Walsh's decision to take a leave of absence to practice intensive meditation in Asia after achieving tenure.

The importance of integrating traditional academic disciplines with contemplative practices to explore human potential.

The historical availability of the world's traditions for cross-cultural exploration of human possibilities.

Walsh's perspective on the evolving acceptance of spirituality in academic discussions.

The role of 'gnostic intermediary' in translating wisdom traditions into contemporary language and concepts.

Defining wisdom as deep insight and understanding of oneself and life's existential issues, coupled with practical skill.

The intrinsic link between wisdom and benevolence, with wisdom conferring a profound understanding of virtues.

Walsh's view on the current state of human development, suggesting we are in a collective adolescence.

The necessity for fostering psychological maturation and wisdom to address social and global challenges.

Recommendations for individuals to begin tapping into their potential and gaining wisdom, including seeking mentors and engaging in practices.

The importance of community and the various ways people can come together for collective inquiry and growth.

Walsh's thoughts on the current challenges in the relationship between men and women, and the need for a developmental perspective.

The role of social movements in creating both benefits and new challenges in gender relations.

Walsh's perspective on the American Psychological Association's guidelines on working with men and what constitutes healthy masculinity.

The importance of psychological health and well-being, including maturity, insight, self-acceptance, and the capacity for feedback.

Transcripts

[Music]

Roger Walsh thank you very much for

coming on the channel thank you so I'd

love to hear a little bit about your

background I've covered a lot of

different areas in my time I was very

fortunate grow up in Australia he came

over to the United States on a Fulbright

scholarship I was supposed to go back

after a year or so but rapidly fell in

love with California and wasn't going

anywhere and had the good fortune going

to stand for doing a my psychiatry

training there and that was really an

eye-opener I had come from a very

conventional medical scientific

background an MD PhD I thought I would

end up back in neuroscience lab but

being in Skytree training and being

around people who were exploring the

mind and doing our own having their own

psychotherapy and of course being in

California everything changed in ways I

could never predicted and as almost an

ethical imperative since I was doing

psychotherapy on people I thought I had

an obligation to try some myself I

didn't really expect much but boy was I

wrong I had the very good fortune of

being in therapy with a man by name of

Jim Dugan taller master humanistic

existential therapist and he was

exquisitely sensitive and able to help

me get in touch with my own experience

in a way I'd never been able to do

before and I realized I've been living

my life from here up and I came to

realize there wasn't in the universe as

vast and mysterious as the outer which I

had had no idea even existed and I was

just blown away I felt like I'd live my

entire life on the top six inches of a

wave on top of a no inner ocean and I

didn't even know existed and I was

stunned I mean how could I be so out of

touch so unaware of inner experience and

yet as I looked around at the culture

seemed like that was the way the culture

was almost no one was really in touch

with their inner depths or aware of the

potentials there

to us so then I started exploring

multiple practices and traditions in

California which there are many so you

name what I did it sta TM I mean we

could run through a long list eventually

I found myself gravitating towards

religious and spiritual traditions and I

had no idea why because I thought

religion was the opiate of the masses

and yet I tried some meditation it

seemed helpful I tried some yoga it

seemed helpful I chanted all seemed

helpful and I couldn't understand why

why did these relics of primitive

thinking seem to be beneficial and it

took a couple of years of really

wrestling with it but there's literally

one moment as I was walking across the

living room floor when I it hit me that

behind the conventional institutions

with their rituals and dogma and much

less well-known set of contemplative

practices for training the mind to

cultivate the same qualities and

capacities that the great founders and

saints and sages had realized and that

they also were accompanied by

contemporary philosophies and

psychologies which explained how the

world looked from those more develop

perspectives and how how the mind

functioned normally but also in very

different altered states of

consciousness and at post conventional

developmental stages so this was just an

eye open for me and the day after I got

tenure I applied for two years leave of

absence to disappear into a monastery in

Asia and in intensive meditation

practice and have been very fortunate of

being able to merge the worlds of both

traditional academia psychiatry

psychology with an exploration of

contemplative practices human

possibilities potentials virtues such as

well love and wisdom and to see how

though if we can make sense of them

and also look across traditions you know

this is the first time in history we've

had all the world's traditions available

to us to look for what are the common

practices one of the common ideas and

themes and possibilities they suggest

about what a human being can be

fascinating I'm curious because you've

really seen I imagine a lot of changes

over that time and the way people even

think about these traditions and these

kind of techniques of wisdom for one of

a better word do you think it's easier

now to bring that into the academic

discussion or is it still a challenge or

how do you find it well I think both you

could get excommunicated for saying the

word spirituality a couple of maybe

three decades ago now it's if not

acceptable in all circles at least it's

an acceptable thing in some areas such

as psychology and in a growing number of

academics now themselves although still

small minority involved in contemplative

practices mindfulness particularly yoga

of course so it's getting a little

easier and it's also a little easier as

much as we're increasingly able to

reframe and reconceptualize some of the

traditional spiritual tomes and make

sense of them in terms of contemporary

ideas around psychology mental function

etc I think a lot of you small but

growing number of people and I could

email functioning what Carl Jung called

a gnostic intermediary and he defined a

gnostic in a metre is someone who

immersed themselves in a wisdom

tradition so deeply that they were able

to communicate out of their direct

experience to other people and as far as

I can see in Gnostic intermediary then

has three goes through three processes

first they immerse themselves in the

tradition to the point that they can

really have it as a deep part of their

own experience and understand it then

they have to learn the conceptual frame

consistent of the people they want to

communicate to and then they thought

they have to translate so as to make the

ideas from the wisdom traditional

religious tradition comprehensible in

terms of the other person's framework

and I think a growing number of us are

basically trying to do that reframe what

are in some ways archaic terms and

concepts into conventional language and

in concepts particularly psychology but

not only psychology I'd love to take one

of those concepts or words wisdom

because I know you're that's something

you're looking at right now and of

course we're called rebel wisdom so it's

it's close to our hearts to you what is

wisdom mean well I've wrestled for a

long time trying to come up with a

definition and let me just give a little

context in both in both West Western in

the Western tradition and in some Asian

traditions for example as in Buddhism

there's a common division between two

types of wisdom one is inside an

understanding and the other is practical

know-how and so I think I define wisdom

as wisdom is deep insight and

understanding of oneself and the central

existential issues of life meaning

purpose Alumnus mortality suffering

death plus practical skill in responding

to these issues effectively and

benevolently well we can pause that out

a little if you'd like for example the

wisdom is deep insight and understanding

in sight both intuitive direct seeing

and understanding conceptual

understanding of both oneself and that

understanding can be at multiple levels

of course from just seeing what

particular habits I have and that's not

so smart to seeing some of the dynamics

of the mind to seeing very deeply into

the deeper nature of ourselves so called

transcendent wisdom when India would

called progerin your honor

that direct seeing into what can be

interpreted your consciousness being God

different names so those are the D

that's the deep insight and

understanding of where himself and then

also deep inside an understanding of the

central existential issues of life

issues that all of us have to face and

wrestle with simply because we're human

and come with a body which is going to

sicken an age and die and we are

challenged with how to relate to

skillfully as we can to others how to

deal with the inevitable issues that

life presents us with so those are the

those are existential issues they have

part of existence they're not just

circumstantial their existential they

come with being in a body so deep inside

and understanding both oneself from the

central existential issues of life plus

practical skill you'd be able to respond

effectively that is skilfully

effectively to handle situations and

benevolently because there's agreement

across multiple traditions that wisdom

is intimately linked with benevolence

it's not just if if a person is acting

out of mere self-interest that's not

enough benevolence altruism seems to be

inextricably linked with wisdom and in

fact wisdom confers a profound a radical

understanding of virtues because from

the perspective of the wise the virtues

are simply the ways of living that makes

sense

if a person who sees deeply into

themselves

recognizing recognizes their deep

transpersonal nature and recognizes it

in others of course they want to be

ethical that person deserves no less

than that of course they want to be

benevolent the person deserves no less

than that but we deserve no less than

that ourselves so that gives a whole

different understanding of virtues and

so when I think when a lot of people

look out the window they see or you know

lots of us here very tribal eyes very

chaotic political and cultural landscape

do you think there's any relationship

between wisdom and or maybe lack of

wisdom and that well sure I think

there's no question that most of us are

living way below our potential and when

you ask a group of people for example to

talk or perhaps if you asked your

audience where on the average is

humankind in its journey from infancy to

adolescence through maturity through old

age most people will say adolescence I

think that speaks to a intuitive insight

on the part of the majority of people

that we are not functioning at our best

that and it's becoming clearer and

clearer from both adult developmental

psychology which is a remarkably

important field which is I think one of

the most exciting discoveries of

psychology in the last few decades that

what we took to be normality is not the

sealing of human possibilities there are

stages of development which people have

now beginning to map out through post

conventional and even trans conventional

stages yet if yet though only a small

percentage of the people are operating

at those levels and who knows what

possibilities there are beyond that so

if most people are operating way below

their potential with as Abraham Maslow

with a great humanistic psychologist

said you know what we call normality is

really a form of form of collective

pathology and I would frame it is what

we call normality is a form of

collective developmental arrest and once

you see that then you can see that yeah

it's not surprising that we have so many

social and global problems not to

mention the fact of course that that

we're dealing with entirely new eras and

levels of complexity and innovation and

change and so forth we don't have

guidelines we're kind of thrown into

this and trying to make our way so we

have

desperate need for fostering

psychological maturation for fostering

deep insight and understanding wisdom

and others so as someone who's really

delved into many different traditions

I'm written very well about many of them

as well

where would you suggest someone begin if

they want to start tapping into their

potential more fully and kind of let's

say gaining more wisdom well I think

obviously it depends on the individual

and so it's a little hard to to make

general recommendations but we can cover

a variety of spectra possibilities first

of all you know I spent three years

writing this book essential spirituality

of some central practices and three

years studying the different traditions

and what they say about cultivating

different virtues and capacities

including wisdom and you know what

surprised me most was that every single

tradition said that for every single

virtue if you want to develop this

virtue on yourself hang out with people

who have it you know consciousness is

catchy

and the what of a theme that has been

recognized for millennia in these

traditions is that we're it we're like

tuning forks we resonate with one

another and when they're around wise on

more altruistic more ethical people we

hold in that direction ourselves you

know parents know this they want the

kids to hang out with right kids I mean

this is not revolutionary except we

don't apply it to ourselves so first

thing relationships look for people who

can be there can be mentors and teachers

and friends who can support us in our in

our learning and growth second recognize

that there are further potentials and

possibilities available to us and that

in itself is inspiring third look for a

particular kind of practice you feel

drawn to we are blessed in the West at

this time with an unprecedented

opportunity for a enormous variety of

practices we can do so what is it that

appeals to you

are you drawn to meditation to yoga to

using your work in the world as a form

of service are you drawn to exploring in

groups men's groups women's groups

psychotherapy groups whatever community

very very important nature every

tradition recommends nature is a source

of healing and inspiration and opening

to resonance with the larger world and

our role in a short time in nature

solitude periods of Solitude just having

the time to sit and and reflect and

reflecting with the aid of tools like

journaling taking refusing a journal as

a way of reflect reflecting so those are

some of the possibilities there are more

but there there are lots and I think

well each of us has to feel me do what

draws us and it may be appropriate just

say a little bit about the the

development that people go through as

they begin exploring growth practices

because initially it may be totally

appropriate to do a to do adopt a

smorgasbord approach you know try a

little this Tuesday I'll try that a

Sunday maybe our church and that's fine

let's see what feels good into some

stage you may feel drawn and may be

perfectly appropriate to dive very

deeply into one practice or one

tradition and that can be very valuable

to focus to really immerse oneself and

to dedicate oneself to a particular

practice then again at some future stage

and they feel you getting a little stale

and would benefit from the exposure to

something else so so there's a rhythm to

psychological work and spiritual growth

then we CH have to tune in and trust our

own intuitive feelings about this I'm

curious as well about how how that might

look

on the more collective level when we

come together because this is something

we're very interested in a lot of our

events we you know we might bring up a

cultural issue but then encourage people

to enter into an inquiry around that and

maybe not from a kind of place of

telling a story or here's my opinion but

really a kind of an inquiry like a

talking meditation on this into thinking

okay what does this really bring up for

me and thinking a deeper level so I'm

very curious about what what some of the

traditions have said or your experience

in the best ways for us to come together

in that way what we used to do all the

time in church but we don't really do

anymore

yes and the significant research of

course showing that communities groups

interpersonal contact has gone down

dramatically since particularly some

screen time decreased so much so I think

this is one of the issues of our time

how how we can foster community and

particularly how we can foster

communities that that serve both our

individual and collective healing and

growth in various ways and I think I

know you're exploring various

possibilities and and I think a number

of people are I think you think this is

a kind of cutting edge work so again it

feels like know what particular approach

are we drawn to some people are drawn to

again to more contemplative inquiry

together kind of one extreme would be

the Quaker movement where there's a lot

of emphasis on silence listening and

then speaking from the spirit and when

called another ism at the other extremes

a more active inquiries dialogue even in

some traditions debate challenging

debate Tibetan Buddhism Judaism for

example they really go at it as a way of

trying to try to carve away faulty

presuppositions which much hard to see

in ourselves now this and and so even

that kind of very active debate if done

for the purpose and here's the crucial

thing what

the purpose of these things is the

purpose what was traditionally called

heuristic where I'm trying to prove my

point or is it more Socratic a shared

inquiry for truth which may probably

eludes us both but together perhaps we

get a little closer so one of the kind

of hot topics in our culture right now

is a relationship between men and women

I probably a relationship is old as time

and it certainly seems now you know

we've referred to it as it looks very

much like a dysfunctional relationship

in the culture and many people are

looking at you know how do we kind of

heal that relationship um as a

psychiatrist do you have any thoughts on

that I have a lot of thoughts but so do

a lot of other people yes it is a very

challenging time and it's reflective of

the larger social situation a larger

global situation of so much dramatic

change so much immersion immersion from

out of conventional roles and rules

where things were simply circumscribed

in pre-pro prescribed and prescribed and

so people had very clear directions

there wasn't such a demand for for

autonomy for finding one's own role and

at the same time we have the social

structures including power structures

being called into question broken up and

in some ways very healthy we have the

meat to move like people women now able

to speak out about things they didn't

feel safe speaking out before and that's

all to the good

at the same time they we have the

diversity movement so so there's there's

just an enormous amount going on and

everyone of course most people feeling

understandably somewhat confused for

example there's a role confusion what is

what is a skillful role as a man or a

woman in this culture or in some other

gender

division a lot of the appropriate and

skillful ways of relating I mean we're

still we trying to find work find those

out for ourselves and of course this is

all in some ways for the good if we see

it as a developmental or evolutionary

process in which we're coming out of a

rigid conventional structures and moving

into a at least hopefully a post

conventional more open more fluid nor

wider range of possibilities that's very

good but it does lead through a period

of disorientation so holding that

developmental and evolutionary

perspective I think is helpful there

also some problems you know social

movements inevitably go to extremes and

have counter reactions and backlashes

you know philosopher Hegel certainly had

it right but these these each thesis

leads to its antithesis and and another

way of putting it each each for as the

philosopher Hamas said there's the

dialectical progress every new

developmental phase a revolutionary

faced solve some problems but it opens

new ones so we're seeing benefits but

we're also seeing the opening of new

problems and to list some of them you

know there's a there's now a

hypersensitivity among men and women

about what can what particularly men

what can I say how can I relate can I be

this close can I touch I mean just you

know may be healthy but also very very

difficult and problem problematic

there's also you know some misuse of

data for example the in this country you

know is commonly thrown around as an

accusation against

quotes patriarchy and women still own

their own 85 cents on the dollar for the

man well yes but when you look more

closely for equal jobs and equal hours

it's

eight cents on the dollar and once that

there was 103 so we so the assumption

that this is due to patriarchal bias may

not hold it may be certainly one problem

is the lack of adequate childcare in

this country which is visible and

penalizes women enormous Lee so one

problem that comes up is an assumption

if there's any inequality that it's a

reflection of reflection of bias and

actually if we look at things in the

lodge in a more systemic way and then

there may be some bias but there are

other factors as well that thought of it

comes down to how do we treat each other

as fairly and honestly and carefully as

we possibly can it's not going challenge

roles and part of the so recently the

American Psychological Association

released their guidelines on for working

with men and it created quite a storm

and I'm curious about your perspective

on that and also what what do you a

healthy masculinity looks like well

that's a great question what does a

healthy masculinity masculinity looked

like well I think it looks I'm in my

mind I'm immediately trying to

differentiate how does that as the

masculine side differentiate or add to

the idea of psychological health and how

does it house the flavor so I suspect

it's you know how does the answer is

what is psychological health which is

something we don't have clear ideas

about you know psychology psychiatry

know a lot about pathology they don't

all have much about psychological health

and well-being which is why it's such a

fascinating area but I think certainly

we can say that psychological health and

well-being consists of several things

they comprise a maturity so now that we

know about post conventional

developmental stages you know clearly

psychological health involves which

during through at least early post

conventional stages secondly it involves

insight self inside and understanding of

one of the central elements of wisdom so

that's clearly core third it involves

sulphur deep self acceptance of

recognition of our humanity in evitable

failures and foibles inevitable neuroses

so Carl Jung said that self acceptance

was the acid test of one's humanity so

clearly that clear it involves they kept

at a willingness and capacity for

accepting feedback which is crucial for

any relation your relationship the

willingness to accept hopefully helpful

criticism to and to look at one

shortcomings and failings so there we

could go on and I think there a hole we

could track a variety of capacities and

virtues and say that a healthy person

embodies these and then a healthy

masculinity again it will vary from

between you from individual to

individual and so a healthy masculinity

I think will involve fostering one's own

fostering one's well-being and wisdom

and capacities as fully as possible and

feeling into how most sensitively and

appropriately and skillfully and

joyfully to express those in

relationship with everyone but you will

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