Plato, The Republic Book X on Art
Summary
TLDRIn the dialogue 'The Republic,' Plato, through Socrates, argues that art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, is twice removed from truth as it imitates appearances rather than reality. Socrates suggests that artists lack knowledge of the true nature of what they depict and can negatively influence the soul by strengthening the inferior parts of emotions and appetites over reason. This perspective has influenced Western views on art, with parallels seen in modern critiques of mass media like television.
Takeaways
- đš In Plato's 'The Republic', Socrates argues that an ideal city should exclude poets as they represent the imitative arts, which are considered inferior in the hierarchy of reality.
- đ Plato introduces the concept of 'forms' or 'eidos', which are perfect, eternal, and immaterial realities that are the true essence of all things, as opposed to the changeable material world.
- đïž Art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, is seen as a third category, below the forms and the material objects (articles), as it imitates the imitations of reality.
- đ€ Socrates criticizes artists for lacking knowledge or correct opinion about what they imitate, suggesting that their work is devoid of truth and virtue.
- đŁ The imitative nature of art is considered twice removed from the truth, as it does not imitate reality but the sensory world, which is itself an imitation of the forms.
- đ€ Socrates believes that artists do not need to understand or use the objects they depict, unlike craftsmen who must have intimate knowledge to create functional items.
- đ§ Plato's view of the soul as tripartiteâcomprising reason, spirit, and appetiteâsuggests that art appeals to the lower parts of the soul, potentially weakening reason.
- đ Socrates warns that the influence of art can have negative effects on individuals, strengthening the inferior parts of the soul and thus undermining rationality.
- đș The script draws a parallel between Plato's critique of poetry and modern concerns about the impact of mass media, such as television, on society.
- đ The discussion invites contemplation on the enduring relevance of Plato's ideas about art and its influence on human psychology and societal values.
Q & A
Why does Socrates argue that poets should be excluded from the ideal city in Plato's 'The Republic'?
-Socrates argues that poets should be excluded because they imitate appearances rather than reality, and their art is twice removed from the truth. Additionally, he believes that the arts can have a negative influence on the soul by strengthening the inferior parts of the soul.
What is the term 'techne' in the context of ancient Greek art?
-In ancient Greek, 'techne' referred to any kind of human activity, including crafts, sciences, and what we now consider fine arts. It was a broader concept than our modern understanding of art.
What are 'forms' or 'eidos' in Plato's philosophy as discussed in 'The Republic'?
-Forms or 'eidos' in Plato's philosophy are immaterial, eternal, immutable, and timeless entities that represent the ultimate reality. They are perfect and supersensible, existing beyond the physical world and are the true essence of things.
How does Socrates differentiate between the reality of forms and the reality of material objects?
-Socrates differentiates by stating that material objects are imitations of the forms, which are the true reality. Material objects are changeable and perceptible through the senses, while forms are perfect and can only be grasped through thought.
What is the third category of reality that Socrates introduces in 'The Republic'?
-The third category of reality that Socrates introduces is art, specifically the imitative arts like poetry and painting, which are considered to be an imitation of the material objects that are themselves imitations of the forms.
Why does Socrates believe that artists lack knowledge or correct opinion about what they imitate?
-Socrates believes that artists lack knowledge or correct opinion because they do not need to understand the true nature or function of what they are imitating; they only need to mimic the appearance, which is a second-hand imitation of the true forms.
What is the tripartite view of the soul as described by Socrates in 'The Republic'?
-The tripartite view of the soul consists of three parts: reason (the rational part), spirited (associated with emotions), and appetitive (seeking to meet basic material needs). Socrates argues that art appeals to the spirited and appetitive parts, which are inferior and should be guided by reason.
How does Socrates' view on art relate to modern critiques of mass media like television?
-Socrates' view on art can be seen as analogous to modern critiques of mass media like television, where it is argued that excessive consumption can lead to laziness, poor moral judgment, and a more passive citizenry, thus negatively affecting the rational part of the soul.
What is the role of the rational part of the soul according to Socrates?
-According to Socrates, the rational part of the soul is the best part, capable of accessing the forms and gaining truth. It should be in control, guiding the spirited and appetitive parts, rather than being directed by them.
How does the imitative nature of art affect the soul according to Socrates?
-Socrates believes that the imitative nature of art affects the soul by strengthening the inferior parts, the spirited and appetitive parts, which should be controlled by reason. This can lead to a weakening of the rational part and a distortion of the soul's proper order.
What is the significance of the dialogue between Socrates and the host in the context of the discussion on art?
-The dialogue serves as a contemporary example of how the imitative nature of art can be perceived as lacking in depth and understanding, mirroring Socrates' critique of artists' lack of knowledge in 'The Republic'.
Outlines
đš Plato's View on Art and Imitation
In the dialogue 'The Republic', Socrates, as portrayed by Plato, argues against the inclusion of poets in an ideal city. This is rooted in Plato's philosophical stance that the physical world is an imitation of a higher, eternal reality known as 'forms' or 'eidos'. Socrates suggests that artists, including poets and painters, create works that are imitations of these already imperfect material objects, thus being twice removed from the true forms. This places art at a lower tier of reality and truth. Socrates criticizes artists for lacking the deep knowledge that craftsmen possess about the objects they create, implying that artists merely mimic appearances without understanding the essence of what they depict.
đ Socrates on the Negative Impact of Art
Socrates' critique of artists extends to their impact on society. He posits that art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, can have detrimental effects on individuals by appealing to the lower parts of the soulâemotions and appetitesârather than reason. According to Socrates, the soul is tripartite, consisting of reason, spiritedness, and appetites, with reason being the highest part. Art, by engaging the emotional and appetitive aspects, can weaken reason, which should ideally govern the soul. This perspective is likened to modern critiques of mass media, such as television, which are said to foster passivity and misguided values, echoing Socrates' concerns about the corrupting influence of art.
đ Contemporary Relevance of Plato's Philosophy on Art
The video script concludes with a bridge to modern philosophy and its relation to art, suggesting that Plato's ideas on the inferior status of art and its potential to corrupt are not entirely alien to contemporary discussions. The script points to an article by philosopher Alexander Nehamas, which draws parallels between Socrates' views on poetry and current debates on the negative effects of television. This comparison underscores the enduring relevance of Plato's philosophy in understanding the role and influence of art and media in society. The script also invites viewers to explore further through a playlist on the Philosophy of Art and Aesthetics and the Overthink podcast, which delves into various aspects of art and its philosophical implications.
Mindmap
Keywords
đĄIdeal City
đĄAesthetics
đĄForms or Eidos
đĄImitation
đĄTripartite Soul
đĄPoets
đĄArt
đĄReason
đĄAppetitive Part
đĄOverthink Podcast
Highlights
Plato's dialogue The Republic suggests an ideal city would exclude poets.
Professor Ellie Anderson introduces ideas about art from Plato's Republic.
The concept of aesthetics, coined in the 18th century, did not exist in ancient Greece.
Ancient Greeks used the term 'techne' for art, which included crafts and sciences.
Plato's views on art have influenced Western culture's understanding of art.
Socrates proposes that everyday objects are imitations of a higher, eternal reality.
The higher reality consists of 'forms' or 'eidos', the origin of the word 'idea'.
Forms are perfect, immaterial, and supersensible, existing beyond the senses.
Art, particularly imitative arts like poetry and painting, is considered an imitation of an imitation.
Artists are criticized for not having knowledge or correct opinion about what they imitate.
Socrates argues that artists do not need to understand the function of what they depict.
Art is seen as having a negative effect on the soul by strengthening inferior parts.
Socrates' tripartite view of the soul includes reason, spirit, and appetite.
Imitative arts are said to destroy reason and should be protected against.
Modern critiques of mass media echo Plato's arguments against poetry.
Alexander Nehamas draws parallels between Plato's views and modern media consumption.
Professor Anderson recommends exploring more on Philosophy of Art and Aesthetics through her playlist and podcast.
Transcripts
In Plato's dialogue The Republic, Socrates famously says that an ideal city would not Â
include poets. What's going on here? I'm Professor Ellie Anderson, co-host of Overthink podcast, Â
and I'm here today to introduce some ideas about art from Plato's Republic using the Aesthetics Â
Anthology that I'm also using in some of my other videos on Aesthetics because it's the Â
one that I've taught in the past. For starters, I just want to remind those of you who might not Â
have watched the Introduction to Philosophy of Art video that it's a bit anachronistic Â
to talk about Plato as having an aesthetics or Socrates even as having an aesthetics because Â
aesthetics itself is a term that's coined in the 18th century and the ancient Greeks had a very Â
different concept of what counted as art than we do their word for art, techne, didn't just refer Â
to what we consider the fine arts but also to all kinds of human activities including crafts and Â
sciences. That said what the Republic says about the arts has been hugely influential for the way Â
that Western culture has understood art since in the intervening Millennia. In Plato's Republic the Â
character of Socrates suggests that the things that we see around us in our everyday lives, Â
the material objects of our everyday reality are actually imitations of a higher reality: Â
a reality that is beyond the senses that is eternal immutable and timeless and that Â
ultimate reality is comprised of what are known as forms or eidos in Greek also where we get Â
the origin of the word idea so sometimes the forms are referred to as ideas. The forms are Â
immaterial singular and supersensible right they're beyond the senses they can be thought Â
but they can't be seen even though there's a longer and very interesting story here about Â
how Plato's language of the forms often resorts to visual metaphors we actually talk about that Â
in my podcast Overthink in the episode of vision if that interests you. In any case the forms are Â
characterized by perfection right they are perfect and they are ultimately real: they're not going to Â
decay the way that this plant is going to decay or these books are going to decay or even that rock Â
because they exist in this supersensible realm an immaterial realm. The forms Socrates says in this Â
dialogue are created by God and their nature is reality truth and nature in the ultimate sense, Â
as opposed to this second category of things which is the things that we're surrounded by Â
in everyday life which are called here articles. An article is created by a carpenter or some other Â
skilled literal human worker and the nature of these articles is the nature of appearance Â
or image. Appearances are changeable not only do the articles themselves degrade over time Â
but we can also have different perspectives on them by moving around say to the other side of Â
an object so there's these two levels we might say of reality the forms and the articles, and Â
the articles have to do with material reality that we see and perceive otherwise through our senses. Â
However, Socrates also suggests that there is this third category this third level which is below Â
the forms and below the level of the article and this is art. Specifically what are called here the Â
imitative arts including poetry and painting so not necessarily talking about architecture here. Â
The imitative arts Socrates suggests are created by an artist and their nature is imitation: Â
if I am drawing a shoe for example I am imitating a shoe that I see in my everyday life or perhaps Â
an imagined shoe either way I'm imitating an article I'm imitating a shoe that I could Â
literally or at least hypothetically perceive with my senses so I'm imitating the second level Â
of reality that Socrates is talking about here this means though that I'm not actually imitating Â
reality in the true sense when I'm creating an artwork: I am imitating an imitation of reality Â
because the article the material thing that I see in the real world is itself an imitation of Â
the immaterial supersensible form. So Socrates concludes that art is twice removed from the Â
truth, because it is an imitation of appearance rather than an imitation of reality. One of the Â
things that Socrates really doesn't like about artists here is that in imitating an appearance Â
they don't necessarily have to have knowledge of that appearance as it is. So the shoemaker Â
has to have intimate knowledge of what the function purpose of a shoe is but --
Oh thank you! Were you guys in Hawaii? Yeah, just got back last night. How was it? It was great! Â
I had a show with the Blue Note in Waikiki. Amazing! That went really Â
well and we made a vacation out of it. I love it. Have a good one! Â
So one of the things that Socrates really doesn't like about artists is that he thinks they don't Â
have to have any intimate knowledge of what they are depicting, in order to depict it. The Â
shoemaker has to have intimate knowledge of the function, the purpose, of a shoe. Not only does Â
the shoemaker presumably use shoes, but they also know how to make shoes. The artist, on the other Â
hand, doesn't need to have ever worn a shoe in their lives and let alone know how to make it: Â
they can just paint what they see. And so Socrates says, for instance, each single thing involves Â
three particular acts: to use the thing, to make the thing, and to imitate the thing. And Â
the artist only needs to imitate the thing they don't need to be able to make or use the thing. Â
He throws Homer under the bus here and he says that Homer, who wrote about wars, you know, Â
created these epic poems, the Iliad and the Odyssey, that were for a long time spoken in this Â
amazing oral tradition of ancient Greek poetry, might have written about wars but he didn't win Â
any wars, he didn't invent anything, and he didn't educate anyone. Major burden to Homer. Obviously, Â
Socrates very negative depiction of the artist. He also said the artists are not good people because Â
if they were they would do better things than create art. In fact, he says that artists don't Â
have knowledge or correct opinion about what they imitate. And so they're just kind of out there Â
imitating things willy-nilly without any virtue or understanding of what they're imitating. No wonder Â
he wants to exclude the poets from the city. But there's another component which is the effect that Â
the artists have on people. According to Socrates, not only are artists bad people but they also have Â
negative effects on the population: because the people who are experiencing art, listening to it, Â
viewing it, etc., are actually strengthening inferior parts of their soul while weakening Â
the stronger part of their soul. This argument depends on another view of Socrates which is not Â
specifically related to art which is a view of the soul, and specifically the tripartite soul, which Â
he describes here in the dialogue The Republic as well as in other dialogues too. The tripartite Â
view of the soul suggests that the soul the human soul is made up of three parts: there is reason, Â
the rational part of the soul, which is the best part of the soul this is the part of the soul that Â
can access the forms this super sensible realm of thought and thereby gain truth; the second Â
is the spirited part of the soul, which is more or less associated with what we would call emotions; Â
and the third is the appetitive part of the soul, which is the part of the soul that is seeking to Â
have its basic material needs met. According to Socrates, art plays on our emotions and our Â
appetites in such a way that the spirited and appetitive parts of the soul are strengthened. Â
But these are the inferior parts of the soul and in fact they are two horses that should be guided Â
by the chariot rider of reason. So reason needs to be in control: the spirited and appetitive Â
parts of the soul should be directed by reason rather than doing the directing. Â
Art because it pertains to an imitation of an imitation and plays to the emotions, etc., is not Â
rational but plays to these parts of the soul. In fact Socrates says that the imitative arts destroy Â
reason, and therefore people need to be protected from imitative art. Now, this view of the art Â
might seem a little bit strange, right? Like, the poets and imitative artists are absolutely Â
terrible! But in a really interesting more recent article called Plato and the Mass Media, Â
the philosopher Alexander Nehamas points out that you see similar arguments today when it comes to Â
people watching television. Nehamas points out that common critiques of the negative effects of Â
watching too much TV often trade on really similar arguments to the ones that Socrates proposes Â
against poetry in the Republic. For instance, the idea that television is making us lazy, it's Â
making us worse people by causing us to value the wrong things in life, It's causing us to be more Â
passive citizens rather than actually allowing our reason to guide our lives, and so on and so forth. Â
I recommend checking out that article if you want: it's really a careful reading of Plato and also Â
has quite a few fun analogs to the present day. But I like to mention that in this context, just Â
to show that such a denunciation of poetry and other imitative arts which might seem very foreign Â
to us today, you can see in different forms actually in the present day. For more approaches Â
to the Philosophy of Art and Aesthetics check out this playlist and you can also listen to overthink Â
podcasts because we have a number of episodes where we discuss art in the catalog as well.
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