Side projects to break into Product Management!
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, Diego Granados interviews Bosky Mukherjee, founder of PM Dojo, a learning community for aspiring product managers. They delve into the essential qualities hiring managers seek in candidates, emphasizing the importance of thinking like a PM and demonstrating problem-solving skills through side projects. Bosky shares her journey and insights on diversity in tech, the power of no-code platforms for non-technical founders, and the importance of marketing and relationship-building in product management. The conversation offers valuable advice for those looking to break into the field, highlighting the significance of understanding one's 'why', embracing imposter syndrome, and leveraging LinkedIn for networking.
Takeaways
- đ Aspiring product managers (PMs) should demonstrate the ability to think like a PM and approach problems with the right questions and assumptions, rather than just filling in templates.
- đ Hiring managers seek to see if candidates can identify real problems and validate them, instead of just building products based on personal preferences or convenience.
- đ A side project should be something that you are passionate about and that fulfills a need, ideally solving a problem for more than just yourself or a small group.
- đ ïž Building a product or side project can help aspiring PMs stand out in a competitive job market by showcasing their skills and experience beyond just a resume.
- đĄ PM Dojo, founded by Baskey Mukherjee, is a learning community designed to help aspiring PMs step into the role of a PM through immersive learning experiences.
- đ Non-technical individuals can also become PMs, and no-code platforms have made it possible for them to build and launch products without needing to write code.
- đ The importance of marketing and user discovery is highlighted; aspiring PMs should not wait until after launching their product to start promoting it.
- đ€ Building relationships and networking are crucial for job hunting, as hiring is a relationship-building activity rather than a purely transactional one.
- đ Aspiring PMs should believe in themselves, reflect on their 'why' for product management, and be prepared to discuss this in interviews.
- 𧩠It's acknowledged that imposter syndrome is a common and natural feeling, and rather than trying to eliminate it, it should be embraced as a sign of stepping out of one's comfort zone.
- đ Reflect on skill gaps and undertake small experiments to validate and fill them, as continuous learning is key in the ever-evolving tech industry.
Q & A
What are some key traits hiring managers look for in aspiring product managers' projects?
-Hiring managers look for the ability to think like a product manager, including problem decomposition, asking the right questions, making assumptions, and solving problems in a way that fits the product management mold.
What is PM Dojo and who is its founder?
-PM Dojo is a learning community for aspiring product managers or career transitioners who want to break into product management. It was founded by Baskey Mukherjee.
Why did Baskey Mukherjee start PM Dojo?
-Baskey started PM Dojo to address the lack of diversity in tech applications and to provide an alternative education path for those wanting to break into product management without incurring significant debt.
What is Baskey Mukherjee's background?
-Baskey Mukherjee has been in product and technology for 20 years, working in various roles within product management in different companies and countries, and has also been a hiring manager and product executive.
How does Baskey differentiate between a side project and a side hustle?
-A side project is something one works on out of passion, not necessarily for monetization, while a side hustle is monetized and generates income, often starting as a side project but becoming a more serious endeavor.
What is the importance of building a product for aspiring product managers according to the interview?
-Building a product allows aspiring product managers to demonstrate their capabilities and understanding of product management, stand out in a competitive job market, and increase their chances of getting hired.
Why do some hiring managers prefer candidates with technical backgrounds?
-Some hiring managers may have a bias towards technical backgrounds due to the nature of the product or because they believe it facilitates better communication with technical stakeholders within the company.
What is the role of no-code platforms in enabling non-technical individuals to build products?
-No-code platforms allow non-technical individuals to build and launch production-quality software through point-click-drag interfaces, making it possible for them to validate ideas and solve problems without needing to write code.
How should aspiring product managers approach the problem-solving aspect of their side projects?
-Aspiring product managers should approach problems with a product management mindset, identifying real pain points, validating the size of the problem, and working through the stages of validation before building a solution.
What advice does Baskey give for standing out as an aspiring product manager?
-Baskey advises aspiring product managers to believe in themselves, understand their 'why' for wanting a product management role, identify and work on filling gaps in their skills, and embrace imposter syndrome as a natural part of growth.
How can aspiring product managers leverage their side projects to demonstrate their capabilities to hiring managers?
-Aspiring product managers can showcase their side projects as demonstrations of their product management abilities, ensuring to highlight their problem identification, solution validation, and product development processes.
What is the significance of marketing and user discovery in side projects for aspiring product managers?
-Marketing and user discovery are crucial for demonstrating an understanding of product adoption and market needs. It shows hiring managers that the candidate can not only build a product but also ensure it is used and valued by its intended audience.
Outlines
đ Hiring Managers' Expectations for Aspiring PMs
The paragraph discusses what hiring managers look for in side projects and products built by aspiring product managers (PMs). It emphasizes the importance of thinking like a PM, being able to decompose problems, ask the right questions, and make sound assumptions. The focus is not on filling out templates but on demonstrating product sense and the ability to approach problems as a PM would. The script also introduces the video's guest, Baskey Mukherjee, the founder of PM Dojo, a learning community for aspiring PMs, and provides a brief overview of her background in product management and technology across various countries.
đ PM Dojo's Mission and Baskey's Background
This section delves into Baskey Mukherjee's motivations for starting PM Dojo, addressing the lack of diversity in tech applications and the need for a more accessible and practical education system for aspiring PMs. It highlights her extensive experience in product and technology roles, her entrepreneurial ventures, and her goal with PM Dojo to provide immersive learning experiences that simulate real-world product management roles.
đĄ The Importance of Building Products to Stand Out
Baskey explains the competitive nature of the PM role and the importance of building products to demonstrate one's capability to think and act as a PM. She discusses the limitations of resumes and LinkedIn profiles in differentiating candidates and suggests that hands-on experience in building and launching a product can significantly improve one's chances of standing out to hiring managers.
đ€ Defining Side Projects, Side Hustles, and Startups
The paragraph clarifies the distinctions between side projects, side hustles, and startups. It defines side projects as passion-driven endeavors outside of one's primary occupation, side hustles as monetized ventures, and startups as more serious business ventures that may evolve from side projects. Baskey encourages aspiring PMs to understand the different intentions and goals behind these projects.
đ ïž What Hiring Managers Look for in Side Projects
Baskey outlines the criteria hiring managers use to evaluate side projects from aspiring PMs. She stresses the importance of demonstrating a PM's thought process, including problem identification, customer understanding, and the ability to validate assumptions. The paragraph also highlights the pitfalls of focusing on personal interests rather than market needs and the necessity of building something tangible rather than just a theoretical proposal.
đ The Misconception of Technical Backgrounds in PM Roles
Baskey dispels the myth that a technical background is required to become a PM. She asserts that while understanding the software development process is important, hands-on coding skills are not necessary. She also touches on the use of no-code platforms, which allow non-technical individuals to build and launch products, further emphasizing that technical expertise is not a barrier to entering product management.
đ€·ââïž The Challenge of Choosing a Project to Build
This section addresses the common question of what product to build, acknowledging the difficulty of the task. Baskey suggests that individuals should focus on identifying and solving real-world problems rather than simply improving existing products. She shares examples of successful projects from PM Dojo that have tackled significant social issues, emphasizing the importance of impact over technical complexity.
đą Marketing and Promotion After Launching a Side Project
Baskey advises against waiting until after launching a side project to start marketing efforts. She recommends engaging with potential users and stakeholders from the outset, building excitement, and validating the market. The paragraph also discusses the importance of managing one's career like a product, including personal branding and networking, as part of the overall strategy for aspiring PMs.
đ How to Present Side Projects on Resumes and LinkedIn
The paragraph discusses how to appropriately present side projects on resumes and LinkedIn profiles. Baskey advises against misrepresenting one's role but encourages showcasing the experience as an example of product management skills. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity and leveraging networking and relationship-building as part of the job search strategy.
đ Final Advice for Aspiring PMs
Baskey concludes with advice for aspiring PMs, urging them to believe in themselves, understand their motivations for pursuing a product management role, and to be reflective about their skills and gaps. She also addresses imposter syndrome, suggesting that it's a natural feeling that can be harnessed positively, and encourages building connections and engaging in relationship-building activities as part of the job search process.
đ Where to Find More Information on PM Dojo and Baskey
The final paragraph provides information on how to connect with Baskey and learn more about PM Dojo. It mentions Baskey's active presence on LinkedIn and the PM Dojo website, where interested individuals can find more about the organization's offerings, including the product accelerator program.
Mindmap
Keywords
đĄProduct Manager
đĄSide Projects
đĄHiring Managers
đĄProduct Sense
đĄDiversity in Tech
đĄNo-Code Platforms
đĄImposter Syndrome
đĄGo-to-Market Strategy
đĄCareer Transition
đĄPM Dojo
Highlights
Hiring managers seek candidates who can think like product managers and approach problems with the right questions and assumptions.
Product Sense is not just about filling in templates but having the 'spidey sense' to identify the right problems to solve in the market.
Bosky Mukherjee, the founder of PM Dojo, emphasizes the importance of immersive learning for aspiring PMs.
PM Dojo aims to tackle the lack of diversity in tech by encouraging more diverse applications and providing a platform for learning product management.
The frustration with the traditional education system's lack of practical experience led to the creation of PM Dojo.
No-code platforms have enabled non-technical founders to build and launch products, breaking the myth that a technical background is necessary.
Hiring managers look for side projects that demonstrate a product manager's ability to identify and solve real-world problems.
Side projects should not just be about personal interest but should address a pain point for a user or market.
Aspiring PMs should not wait until the end of a project to start marketing; building excitement and awareness is crucial from the start.
Imposter syndrome is a natural feeling and can be embraced as a check against overconfidence.
Aspiring PMs should reflect on their 'why' for product management to differentiate themselves in interviews.
It's important for aspiring PMs to identify and address gaps in their skills through small experiments and learning.
Building relationships and connecting with the right people in the industry is key for aspiring PMs.
Hiring is a relationship-building activity, not transactional, and aspiring PMs should approach networking with this in mind.
Bosky shares her experience working in six different countries and how it shaped her perspective as a product executive.
The importance of not just launching a product but also focusing on user adoption and feature discovery post-launch.
How to effectively market side projects and personal brands on platforms like LinkedIn to stand out to hiring managers.
Transcripts
what are hiring managers look for in in
this scythe hustler or these projects or
these products that aspiring pms
build when i'm kind of thinking as a
hiring manager what i hear from other
hiring managers in pm dojo
these are some of the things that keep
on coming um
they want to see if you can think like a
product manager
essentially like as a hiring manager we
want to see if i
see a site project or if i see a deck
i want to see if you are able to
think like a pm approach the problem
like a product manager
if you're able to decouple decompose
things ask the right
questions what kind of assumptions
you're making
are you able to kind of solve it in a
way
that kind of fits the mold
i'm not looking to see if you can fill
in the blanks on all of the templates
no right and that is what product sense
is
[Music]
hello everyone and welcome to diego
granados and i'm a product manager
and today i have a very special guest
with us i have bosky with me
who is the founder of pm dojo pm dodge
is a learning community for aspiring pms
or career
career transitioners who are wanting to
break into product
she'll tell you more about that but
first of all bossky how are you it's a
pleasure to have you here
it's a pleasure to be here diego this is
uh yeah this has been a long time coming
thank you now i'm doing really really
well really really well thank you
that's awesome and and once again thank
you for being with us today
and before we get started into talking
about products
projects pm dojo why don't you tell us a
little bit about yourself
absolutely so baskey mukherjee uh
currently in beautiful vancouver bc
british columbia
in canada i
have been in product and technology now
for 20 years
i kind of saw the very beginning of what
product management used to be even
before i knew what product management
was i'm also a mom
to a six and a half year old so life's
been really crazy since pandemic started
with
homes home teaching and everything
and yeah so i started my career in
product
many many many years ago grew my
you know into different roles within
product different companies
fun fact i've worked in six different
countries including the tiny island of
bermuda
i've been a hiring manager product
executive
and my two stints uh as an entrepreneur
right now
so there you go and that is an awesome
set of experiences and super interesting
working in so many different countries
and your latest project your latest
startup is pm dojo
where did the idea from pm dodger came
from and and tell us a little bit about
about it um
so uh pm dojo was really boring
out of a few things that i was seeing in
the market
in our space in in product for quite
some time
so number one i was really getting
frustrated with the whole narrative
around the lack of diversity in tech we
know that as a fact
but what was frustrating was that the
all of these conversations would come
and stop at the narrative that companies
need to hire more diverse candidates
right which is a fact but
we don't begin with that many diverse
applications
right so when i was a hiring manager and
i was looking at the pool i wasn't
getting that
many diverse candidates how do we even
define diversity that's another point
when i talked with other high rate
managers at least in north america
we were seeing the same trend and so
it wasn't just enough to wait for
companies to hire more and more diverse
people
so we had to do something else to
encourage that there were way more
diverse applications to begin with
so what was that i wanted to kind of
tackle that and it seemed very scary and
very big
and of course in a true product manager
fashion
my mvp was not the whole of tech but i
wanted to do something in product
so that was number one the second one
was i was really again
exhausted and frustrated with this whole
business of education
um it's very much designed for
privileged i was an international
student myself
um you know with a big debt um
when i came to the u.s many years ago i
talk with a lot of
people who want to get into product or
in tech with this tremendous amount of
debt
um and so the way the current education
system works is that you pay a lot of
money and
you spend a lot of effort you spend a
lot of time and you end up learning only
theory
which doesn't help you if you're
applying for roles that
even entry-level roles that ask for
experience so i wanted to do something
about that and
though that was the primary reason why
these two things came into being
in wanting to solve um i've been
influenced by martial arts even though i
know nothing about martial arts but
the the philosophy of martial arts is
something that i resonate with and so
dojo from martial arts it means in
japanese it means it's a craft
that you learn under the mastery of some
kind of a master or a guru and it's very
immersive learning
and when i think about product
management it has felt like martial arts
a lot of the times
uh it also there's a big piece of
craftsmanship that i believe when it
comes to building products
and so i wanted to kind of bring in
those elements and hence pm dojo was
born an immersive learning community
where you get to
step into the role of a product manager
before your first role so we tried to
simulate all of that in the program
so there you go that is an amazing story
thank you so much for sharing that
breaking 2pm is tough we see it
every day and there are many many paths
to get into pm
you you have focused much more on
teaching and helping aspiring pms or
career transitioners
that they should build products in order
to be a product manager
why is that why not just take your
resume tailor it and
apply to the company that you want to
i mean i'm not against resume or
or mock interviews or any of these
things
but i think it comes down to the fact
that the competition is just getting
fiercer every day
i think post pandemic uh you know when
i'm still working with companies as part
of my other venture
um you know where i'm at an advisor with
a lot of tech companies and i'm helping
them build product teams and define
what level of product you know is needed
and i'm looking at resumes
i'm looking at tons like hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of resumes for the
same role
and what is happening thankfully i guess
is that most people have somewhat
learned how to do their resume right so
there was once upon a time where i
couldn't even make the difference
between a cover letter and a resume they
both looked very similar
they both had novels written they were
like five six seven pages now most
people have learned you know one page
two page you know put accomplishment put
outcome
and so if i'm looking at resume and i
remove the name of the person
most resumes are looking very similar as
a hiring manager i don't have
a lot of things to know how different
one candidate is
from the other and there are a lot more
other dimensions to us
than just a document which is a resume
and a url which is our linkedin profile
and in order to stand out and
in order to be ready for roles
that require two years three years four
years experience even for entry level
roles
you have to learn how to do it you
and it just improves your odds i guess
right um you know
if you think about the fact that
uh you can read about product management
it sounds
kind of rational right it sounds
practical it sounds
sensible but we all know that in the
real world
so messy uh partly because of people
us right like humans right we're quite
messy we're complicated creatures right
and so it's never just about frameworks
um if it was about frameworks then
all like disagreements at work you know
would have been resolved by
changing one framework prioritized
different way and we would all be
singing kumbaya it doesn't happen like
this in the real world right
and so how do you stand out and how do
you even know
if this particular role is for you if
you have
not done it then you will not know and
so
my idea and my intention behind pm dojo
is that
get to build a product live the life of
a pm
know firsthand if this role is something
for you
before you kind of get into it and while
doing it increase your odds 10 times
because you don't have to then struggle
with getting your resume through ats you
don't have to struggle talking about
your transferable skills just demo a
product that you launched
to a hiring manager uh it's not as
simple as that
but it does work wonder wonderfully well
and it makes perfect sense i mean the
way that you describe the
the resume is one thing but then showing
that you
have the experience through building
this product is definitely going to set
you apart from the competition
now a lot of people think that scythe
projects
are you know a startup a site business
is that a science project what is that
what exactly is is you know these side
projects or these products so
terminologies right
it's the same thing like frameworks
right like if we get like so hung up on
this
um side projects can be a lot of
different things
but then you also have passion projects
you have side hustles
you have all of these terms and
terminologies
the way i like to think about it in my
head
is that side project has been there
forever
a lot of the developers and engineers
have typically worked on it
and that's what kind of got the
popularity as far as i understand and so
side project is
kind of in any any project we have to
define what a project is
but any anything that you're working on
the side you have your day job or your
main
thing whatever you're working that pays
your bills and everything and then
you're kind of doing something on the
side that you're deeply passionate about
that somehow either fulfills your need
uh you know some need that's not getting
fulfilled at work
or maybe it is something that allows you
to tinker and learn new skills
um or anything that you do on the site
that typically at a very very high level
is a side project
it may or may not monetize right usually
it's not
monetizing at a side hustle uh on the
other hand
is something that is monetized so
usually people who have their day job
or night job whatever your situation is
um you're doing that but then you have
something on the
side that you may have started as a
fashion project or a side project but
it's now becoming a hustle which i don't
like the word hustle
but yes it is something that's is
running by the side
that is also generating your side income
a lot of people especially after
pandemic
are really beginning to think that
especially as they're thinking about
what's going to happen with their work
are they going to have a job do they
even want to have a job do they want to
do this
a lot of people right now are beginning
to uh
there's a lot of inspiration to become a
creator and a builder in the current
economy and the world we live in so
side hustles really really work well
startup
i mean startup is very different though
right like it can start
as a side project but then it's i guess
the intention behind how serious you are
in terms of making it like a fully
fledged adventure you're going to be
hiring people eventually
i think the seriousness becomes a lot
more and eventually you do want to leave
i guess your job and kind of start
focusing full time
i would say just at a high level that's
how i try to explain myself what these
differences are
i don't get hung up with these
definitions i guess it's i think more
the intention but the goal is and how
you're
getting about it to do this when when
aspiring bms think that
a scythe project has to be a you know a
full company
end-to-end and and and you're absolutely
right right
some people take their passion project
and that becomes a startup and
it's something else but it doesn't have
to go to that extent
it can be like you said a site hustle a
passion project something
that you're interested in besides your
work your school whatever you're doing
now speaking of these projects um
whatever
you know people are doing out there what
do hiring managers
look for in in these projects right
because we talked about
there's a resume and and you show that
you can be a pm
by actually showing that you are already
a pm
in your site hustle in your startup in
whatever project you're doing
now just to finish the question many
aspiring pms
send me their portfolio or or their
project or their site hustle for
feedback and
most of the times it's either you know a
very very small simple presentation with
a few
words and how they would improve their
favorite app sometimes it's just the
website
but but that's it so so what are hiring
managers look for
in in this scythe hustler or these
projects or these products that aspiring
pms
so i think when in my mind i think just
that when you're talking about a diego
like if it is like a critique
the design critique of an existing
product
um you know which is like a deck
for me i wouldn't consider that a side
project like
for me when i think about a side project
it needs to be something
that you've kind of built and launched
so like what you do right with your
youtube channel right
all of that for me that would be a side
project maybe eventually can become
something else but it is a side project
where you built it
i think a lot of the times
as product managers would be product
managers we are constantly thinking
about products you know
i'm gonna pick up my new phone i'm gonna
automatically i
should automatically start thinking as a
pm what is
what is going on here right like is it
good not bad how can i improve what am i
not like i think it just becomes natural
in us
that wouldn't be a side project for me
that would just be
my me just practicing right and and
getting
maybe it can become a portfolio maybe
just like you know you may want to
um i think when i'm kind of thinking as
a hiring manager what i hear from other
hiring managers in pm dojo
these are some of the things that keep
on coming um
they want to see if you can think like a
product manager
essentially like as a hiring manager we
want to see if i
see a site project or if i see a deck
i want to see if you are able to
think like a pm approach the problem
like a product manager
if you're able to decouple decompose
things ask the right questions
what kind of assumptions you're making
are you able to kind of
solve it in a way that kind of fits
the mold i'm not looking to see if you
can fill in the blanks on all of the
templates
no right and that is what product sense
is
right a big part of product sense
i think for me as a hiring manager is
also your spidey sense
so something that i have strongly
believed
is that as product managers we get paid
not because we can solve our own
problems
but we should be able to solve we should
be able to identify the right
problems in the market that needs to be
solved and then kind of work with the
team to solve it
so if it's that then um
we shouldn't be kind of seeing a side
project where
you cannot tell me about who the
customers are what their pain points are
i'll give an example um i was
you know once hiring for a pm role um i
received a candidate's resume
um and they had like six or seven
site projects on paper it looked
wonderful
right uh it went into two pages it was
an entry-level role but six seven side
projects right
i was just amazed i mean a lot of the
times i would see volunteering roles
that would excite me
but this time they had actually done
site projects there were links and
everything
i of course didn't have all of the time
to go through all of the links but i was
like
worthwhile i want to talk to talk to
them
and so as i started interviewing you
know my first question was can you tell
me a little bit about
this they started talking about how
they're interested in some technology
and they wanted to tinker along with it
and they kind of did something and that
was what the what the site project was
like
went to the next one we went through all
of the six or seven side projects
not one was about a pain point
that was not for them or their one
friend or two friends
or it was not for the family member and
there was no
like you know the the mindset for how do
you even validate
how do you find out how big of a problem
is it why does that problem exist
that thing wasn't there so you can work
on as many side projects but if you
don't start thinking like a pm
to identify those problems and go
through those
i guess you know the stages of
validating
right and it becomes kind of pointless
right so
in summary i would say as a hiring
manager you want to kind of
you want to see from candidates who are
thinking about the problem
as a product manager really questioning
themselves and why
is it even necessary to solve this and
then if it becomes like a side project
then you can launch it and you can see
it i wouldn't want to see a deck all of
the time
decks have become too common now so
again i think standing out
i like to see something that that is
built and something more than a website
that has all the information it should
do something right
you know a lot of the times i just see
aggregators you know and then it might
have a button and if i click the button
i get to send an
email i mean for me that's not a product
right
uh it's just a website let me retake one
very
important thing that you said because
you're absolutely right a lot of times i
receive
a portfolio a project a link url
something
and the first question that i ask myself
is
are they doing this because they found
the problem they talk to users
or because they have the problem they
think it's a problem for everyone and
then they solve it
and most of the time the answer is is
the latter
they never stop for a moment to think
is this a problem am i solving a problem
or am i just having an inconvenience
with the product and i want to change it
and that's crucial not only for these
site projects and the products
but also for interviews because as pms
you never improve a product based on
what you think it's always about the
users the pain points the market
research so
that was fantastic thank you so much for
for sharing that with us
now thinking about these products and
you mentioned yes
making a button send an email is
definitely not a full
product but at the same time a lot of
people don't have the technical
background
they're worried they won't be able to
create a project
should they be worried do they need to
take classes on coding
how do they go about this this is like i
i i sometimes wonder what
started this myth you know like it's
like in every single thing
uh probably it is you know people like
me
who transition into product from a
computer science background and here i'm
talking about no you don't need
technical background
i don't believe uh that you need a
technical background with a caveat
and again this is not like an aha moment
i'm sure that this is
people have heard this time and again if
you're looking to transition or break
into product
and this is your first time and you
don't come from a technical background
you don't need to take coding class
because as a pm you don't have to review
code you don't have to
sit down and write code
you do need to understand at a very
conceptual
level how software gets built you do
need to have
passion for technology and software if
you're talking about product management
in tech but you don't need to sit down
and write code you don't even have to
manage developers right uh usually
you're going to have someone who's going
to be managing
but what happens is that unless and
until
you are trying for a role where either
the product is like a devops
uh maybe it is an api maybe it is a
platform
maybe it is iot so really technical
products of course there
your chances of course get very limited
if you don't have
come from a technical background uh
sometimes i've also seen where in
companies
uh or hiring managers there might be a
little bit of a bias
right like we all have biases right all
of us have biases
some people might have a bias that i
need to have only people who come from a
technical
background because our internal
stakeholders are very technical
and it'll be just so i think you have to
kind of think about those but for most
roles in pm you don't need to unless and
until you have some passion and some
understanding of how software gets built
um but you don't need to have a
technical background if you want to
launch something
on the side so like in pm dojo
we have partnerships with no code
platforms um no code platforms has been
there in existence for
a very very very long time and it took
the entire startup world
by the storm especially for
non-technical founders
about nine ten years ago it was
impossible
for a non-technical founder to even
believe that they could be someone who
could launch their own business or their
product
right they would either have to the path
would be they would have to go and find
a cto that they've never worked with
or maybe someone they've worked with
many years ago then they've tried to
bring them as a cto they try to start
working or
maybe you have to spend money in hiring
a deaf team
and then when they would be ready to get
funding and all of this their
conversations would turn into well
what's your runway
how much have you spent uh how many
customers do you have
well none but we've spent all of this
money right
and now what non-technical founders are
doing for the last several years is that
they have they are using no code
platforms
and you can actually build with point
click
drag right it's not as simple as that
but it's very very simple
point click and drag you can launch
production quality software both web
apps
both mobile apps um with actual users
with data with integrations with all of
that
and you can get through all of that
validation so no you don't need to learn
how to code you certainly don't need how
to code
you do need to understand though how
software does get built
at a high level um and then you can go
from there and
use technology to beat the myth that you
need to be very technical in order to
get into product
now that is fantastic and plus one to
everything you said including
uh or especially the no code platforms i
think there are so many options out
there nowadays that
you don't need to know how to go if you
want to do it that's awesome but you
don't need to do it
to build products or to become a product
manager
so that's fantastic thank you for
sharing that posky now um
another very typical question that i get
in my messages
about products inside projects people
come to me and say
can you tell me what product should i
build um how should they think about
building these projects should they
you know do a side project on a company
they want to get into
should they try to come up with
something
how do you answer to all of these that
that come to you and ask you
tell me please tell me what to build
please come and tell me what you get
how what should i build it's a golden
question isn't it like if i had all of
these ideas i would probably be a
multi-millionaire sitting in a vc
right um you know exactly
um i would say we should
you know we've heard of this right it
depends that famous answer
i think it depends we've i've certainly
seen people
who have gotten opportunities
by working on something that they wanted
to improve
so we had a speaker come in in pm dojo
a few cohorts ago they are in linkedin
they basically published an article a
really well written article it wasn't
superficial one it was really well
taught off
about their experience with a certain
product and how they would improve it
it was very very critically written as
something that i
really it's one of those examples that i
have um
and they ended up actually getting
invited for an interview
right um so we've seen that happen
um but i think it comes down to that
basic fundamental question how are you
gonna stand out
when most people are kind of
writing about this and and so it is one
of those
it is tough but it is one of those
easier steps right easier ways to kind
of
think about a product and kind of come
up with a critique
um i'm going to give an example of um
what happened when i was doing my mba
and you don't need an mba to get into
product
that's also the thing i did mba for very
different reasons
another another very cool question and
yes you don't need an mba
don't need an mba i i really think you
know that mba story is
actually this is just my interpretation
i might be totally wrong here but
a lot of people actually still come into
product from technical background
right and that's how product managers
were hired long time ago too
right folks from certain university kind
of get them and you start kind of
working on the product
and so there is obviously a gap between
technical and business and you try to
kind of understand that so i really feel
that mba requirement or that bullet
point
in the job description really kind of
has stayed from there but
that's the story for another thing you
do not need an mba
um but i i think it comes
so when i was doing my mba we had a
strategic
advantage or some kind of a core module
it was many years ago
and we were sitting there and it was a
case study about microsoft
and we were sitting there and we were
reading that case study
and there were quite a few things that
kind of didn't go uh
what it should the way it should have
been and i'm sitting there with a few of
my
teammates and i'm like duh like you know
we spent half an hour in reading this
case studying we already kind of have a
pretty good
understanding of how things shouldn't
have been done
so here we have these really smart
people in a company
maybe microsoft maybe anything right
like when you're when you're working
through case studies and all of this
right
and how come they couldn't figure it out
like how come
and we sitting here we haven't even
finished our mba right
we're obviously not as smart as these
awesome people how could we figure it
out right
um and we had one of the industry
veterans come into a class for a lecture
and i asked this question and they said
something that's kind of
remained really kind of foundational to
me throughout these years is that
they said hindsight is always 20 20.
and so when you're doing a deck or
you're working on a case study
that world is very sanitized the real
world is not sanitized
we can sit here critique all of that
in order to implement it it's a really
really whole another ball game
and it's not just about implementing it
you have to also make sure that users
are using it
or if they're using something else that
they're adopting your product
how are they increasing their usage
they're all these different elements
it's not just about shipping
right it's not just about check mark and
so i think it all comes down to this
right if you're thinking about this
doing a deck or doing a design critique
on a product
might give you some brownie points but
it might not be
all the things that you need in order to
kind of make that transition happen and
cross the bridge
and so why not kind of figure out
what you need to solve in order to think
about what you need to solve it comes
back to this fundamental question that
is pms
very much we have to develop that spidey
sense right
we need to be able to uh be able to put
in all of these things
uh map them out in our head and kind of
make some deductions
on what might be some of these pain
points that we actually validate and
then solve for
and i think that becomes the thing that
you have to kind of start learning it
doesn't have to be
scary uh you know i can give a few
examples right
like like in pm dojo we've had teams who
have
built and launched a product for helping
victims from domestic abuse connect with
each other
and even know if they are in an abusive
relationship
because a lot of the times people don't
know they're in an abusive relationship
we've had a product that's launched and
gordon did that gordon and his team
where they wanted to solve a problem for
earlier career
professionals to get career advice from
more professionals in an anonymous way
you know
very pretty simple problem uh in the
world that we live in today the
unfortunate the only unfortunate aspect
is that there are more problems than
solutions
so you can i'm sure that people if you
think a little bit
talk to people uh you will you will find
problems you know and you will get to
know the more people you talk to is this
a real problem
how important is it how how frequently
does it happen to you is it like once a
year
you know uh that's amazing and so
um i have a follow-up question for you
when you mention yeah it's not just
about launching the product
and that's it at the end of the story so
when we think of these
aspiring plums aspiring pms building
products or scythe projects or scythe
hustles
to show that they can be product
managers they launched that
whatever it is an app a website
portfolio whatever it is they launch it
um now what do they do after that how do
they tell the world the hiring managers
hey i built something i can get a job
into pm
how do they do that okay okay um and
uh so my question would be diego are you
talking in general are you talking about
how we do in pm dojo
whichever you prefer i mean as advice to
somebody who's building a side project
yeah what do they do after they launch
it so one thing is you don't want to
wait after you launch it to do your
marketing just like in the real world in
the real world you're thinking about
adoption how are you going to create
awareness
so it's no point even in the real world
as a pm and i see this mistake so many
times
where you've launched it and then you
start thinking oh boy now we need to
work with marketing
[Laughter]
i've made that mistake so
and i've seen that many times just like
that
when you're working on a side project or
whatever side thing you're working on
in order to kind of stand out you want
to make sure that you're not
waiting until it's done because
you also have to make sure that you're
getting people excited
all these different kinds of people you
know when you're doing your initial
validation
uh you can sign up people for your beta
you know so there are lots of different
ways like you have to really start
thinking as a product manager this is
why
right it's you have to get out of a
project manager mindset where you're
managing a project
really start thinking as a product
manager and as a product manager
usually i'm thinking where am i going to
get my users
how am i going to get my users how am i
going to think about converting those
users
into customers right what does that
journey look like
and so i typically tell people not to
wait until the end
this is what we do even in our program
um we start
right from this the second week itself
right
where you are basically validating
you're trying to test how big the market
is and every step of the way
you're validating with users you're
trying to get them excited
you're trying to get customers and
organizations excited who might partner
with you
uh it's not easy but that is something
that it is like one of those hurdles
that we have to kind of
get over with in order to get that um
and then the more you
kind of do all of this work up front
you have less of a trouble trying to
kind of start the whole marketing or the
go-to marketing
effort right more than the side
project or the product that you've
launched even
as a aspiring pm or as a professional
who's thinking into transitioning into a
product
i've always believed that you need to
manage your career as a product
right and so if in the real world you
have to do go to marketing or you have
to work with someone who does go to
marketing for your product
uh i wasn't that fortunate i i only had
a go-to marketing
like a marketing product marketing
person once in my entire career other
times i've had to kind of figure it out
somehow
um but you have to make sure that you're
spending some good amount of effort on
go to marketing for yourself
so whether that means that you're
sharing stuff what you're learning
what you're thinking what you have to
have a point of view
as a product manager and a lot of times
i see people who come in even for
interviews and say
i don't know which way and what to do
well you have to have a point of view
based on what you have heard what you've
learned what you know
um and so how can you have these
intelligent
engaging conversations with the
community at large
and it's become so easy to do that right
now right on linkedin
and all of these different platforms so
yeah don't wait until the end
do these little steps throughout to make
sure that you're building that traction
um through a lot of different ways
linkedin is my favorite
depending on your product of course you
know your and the audience and
yeah your audience and all yeah i think
that if it were as
easy as build it and they will come
probably marketing wouldn't exist
and the reality is that it's not like
that so there's a lot of work that needs
to happen
throughout the whole development of the
product or the project like you said not
just wait until
you launch it and then you have to do
again all the work so
that is fantastic i have then even if
you think diego sorry like even if you
think of a real
like a real product right in the real
world when we right let's say it's
existing it has
tons of customers even then as pm's we
have to think about
a feature discovery so many times you
know we are using products that have
tons of features and half of the time
even as a user of the product i don't
know of a feature that was launched
so i mean exactly yeah you have to think
right
yeah that makes a lot of sense uh that's
a great example
and and i have one last question for you
about the scythe projects and
uh if i'm an aspiring pm i build my
product i'm doing all this
you know say marketing user discovery
i'm doing all of these steps
at the end of it uh because say i want
to wait until i finally release a
product
should i ask to my resume product
manager should i add to my linkedin
product manager or do i just call them
scythe projects
how do i market myself using these
projects for these products
it depends i think you have to
ask yourself so one key aspect in all of
this that we talked today which we
didn't talk about
is that as a pm you're also not working
solo
you're working with a team uh because
a lot of the challenges that come is
around the team level dynamics
alignment and all of that if you're
working with yourself
it's very easy to agree with ourselves
right you know we love our own ideas
so i think when you're working by
yourself and you're working
on something i think calling it product
manager
might be a little bit too far-fetched so
maybe you can put it underside projects
or and things and you can kind of call
yourself that hey you are a product
manager for this but
you shouldn't maybe make it as the way
that you did play the role of a product
manager because a big portion of the
work you haven't done
right in terms of interacting with with
a team
but if you like in pm dojo everyone puts
a product manager at pm dojo because
we're really simulating the real world
you have a team and you have
stakeholders and you have all of that
but i think for everyone else yeah don't
lie
don't lie stay as truthful as possible
but you also know that in today's world
especially there is a whole new world of
recruitment and hiring that is going on
outside of your traditional resume which
is through
talking and building relationships it is
a little bit of a long-winded route
but don't depend on you know again
uh i'll do everything on my resume i'm
going to launch my resume and companies
are going to be coming
it's the same philosophy so you have to
kind of market yourself
um so so yeah yeah i know absolutely and
in this channel and
everywhere i i speak about this is i
always advise never lie
because even if you end up having the
interview thanks to those lies
you're gonna get caught in the interview
and a lot of bad things can happen
from of course not getting the offer but
also being banned even from the company
because of that type of behavior so
definitely don't lie
but put these projects in your site
projects when you talk to people
share your experience share your
learnings as an aspiring pm
uh but if you didn't do the work of
product manager just don't put it in
your title
but like boski mentioned and i think
it's our favorite
word in the entire product management
universe it depends
it depends it really depends and you
know titles are not the main thing
though right
like it's about this i think good hiring
managers will see it
right so if you're able to talk about
that which is why it is so important
to not rely on your resume and ats
systems all of the time
so if you can talk to hiring managers do
casual informational chats you can talk
about those experiences and find
every possible venue to stand out
absolutely
and i have two more questions for you
today okay
one is any final advice for
aspiring pms out there about anything
any advice any advice uh
believe in yourself right it starts with
that
don't follow the typical crowd these
days everyone wants to become a product
manager just like a few years ago
everyone wanted to become a management
consultant it was one of those big
fights
so spend some time to reflect on your
why
for product management or any kind of
product role
um right that reflection is really
important because
one you know you're going to be asked
that question in the interview
and you don't want to give answers like
how i used to do it for years
which is i come from a tech background
i'm going to be great with devs
oh now i've done my mba i'm going to be
great with the business stakeholders
i love working with customers uh you
know these are such
generic answers that when i used to
answer it that way i thought
of course i put in a little bit more
color to it i thought that there were
really
good answers until i switched my seats
and sat on the other side of the table
hearing similar answers and it was so
mundane and boring
so if you want to differentiate yourself
again thinking like a product manager
who who is your target user your target
users are companies you're hiring
managers recruiters
what do they need what are they paid
points you've got to change your story
right so
and for that you want to really know
your why what is that why
second piece of advice i would say would
be
we all have gaps tech is evolving every
day
the role of product evolves a lot
is evolving and so we will always have
gaps and so you know if you were to kind
of
take a stock on where your gaps are
and then look at some of the roles that
interest you and then do some sort of a
kind of a reflection exercise on how big
broad deep wide those gaps are
and what are some of the smallest
experiments i can do
in order to validate if those gaps exist
how can i fill those gaps so a little
bit of reflection
is something that i would definitely
request all aspiring pms
um to undertake um third one would be
around imposter syndrome i don't think
we can ever not talk about imposter
syndrome
i think my take on imposter syndrome is
kind of a little bit different
everyone kind of talks about how you
need to manage it how you need to solve
it how you need to deal with it
and my thing is i don't think we need to
deal with it
um impasto syndrome is very real and
human
uh it always existed uh i obviously
didn't call it imposter syndrome back
when
i was dealing with it i think even you
it's kind of just gotten a lot of
traction and marketing all this
marketing language has come up recently
because of the awareness
but know that it's so human and it is
very natural feeling
that we get whenever we are in this
situation
where we've never done it right and so
if we didn't have this so-called
imposter syndrome we would basically
become these
cocky jerks that no one would want to
work
so it is that threshold that switch that
actually prevents us from turning into
those overconfident jerks
and so just embrace that feeling is what
i say it's not easy
um i think for me my natural reaction is
i get into that
but then when my rational brain kicks in
i'm like okay
you know it's an opportunity where i
don't know so i need to figure out how i
need to kind of
overcome that um so i think that is
something that i would like to share
and don't try to kind of manage and
solve it right it is something that's
natural
it's just like someone telling you find
a way so that
you're not gonna be so happy or find a
way that you're not gonna laugh so much
or find a way they're not gonna cry so
much it's just a natural feeling
uh what else um
oh there's so so many things connect
connect with the right people
talk take time hiring like i
heard one of our hiring managers say
hiring is very
much a relationship building activity
uh it is not transactional uh for most
of us
and so get to know people uh
relationship is also a two-way street
don't just ask for can you give me a job
or can you
make can you connect me with your
network i do get those messages
uh you know try to kind of know the
person that you're reaching out to
and and see if you can help them
they would probably want to help you
back as well right
absolutely all of that makes perfect
sense thank you for sharing that
the last question that i have for you
today is where can people find more
about you and pm dojo how can they learn
more from you
um absolutely so i am i'm really active
on linkedin
um i really like my linkedin community
so you can definitely find me on
uh both me as well as pm dojo if you're
interested to learn about pm dojo what
it is
you can go to pmdojo.me
and yes you can check out the product
accelerator our next cohort is starting
in august and spots are filling up so if
you're interested
definitely you can go to the website
diego i'm not sure if you can maybe
share that
uh in the yeah don't worry every all the
links to
to find boss key and find tm dojo will
be in the description below
awesome and yeah if you're reaching out
to me on linkedin please put in a
message
and then i will i can definitely
guarantee you that i'm going to connect
with you
sometimes if i don't get messages i kind
of put that at the bottom of my to-do
list
and the motherhood aspect comes into my
life and then
i forget about product managers that i
think about my six and a half year old
so if you put a message i'm going to do
my best to get back to you
this was absolutely amazing thank you so
much for being with us today
thank you diego this was really really a
lot of fun and thank you so much for
having me
thank you and for everybody watching
thank you so much and we'll see you next
time
you
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