How AUSTERITY POLITICS Launched A One-Sided CLASS WAR On World's Poor: Clara Mattei
Summary
TLDRIn an interview with Clara Mattei, author of *The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism*, Mattei discusses the economic roots of fascism, highlighting how austerity measures, such as wage cuts, privatization, and reduced public spending, were central to Mussolini's regime. Mattei argues that austerity helped suppress workers' movements and solidify authoritarian power. She contrasts these policies with democratic alternatives that emerged post-WWI, such as workers' councils and cooperatives, which challenged capitalist structures but were ultimately undermined by authoritarian regimes.
Takeaways
- 📚 The book 'The Capital Order' by Clara Matte explores the historical connection between austerity measures and the rise of fascism.
- 💡 Austerity policies, including budget cuts, privatization, wage suppression, and interest rate hikes, have been implemented globally with severe consequences.
- 🔍 Mussolini's Italy is highlighted as an early example of a fascist regime that applied harsh austerity measures, contrary to the popular myth of state control and corporatism.
- 🤔 The script challenges the common understanding of fascism as purely state-driven, suggesting austerity was a precursor to the state interventions of the 1930s.
- 🌐 The discussion points out the international liberal establishment's initial support for Mussolini's policies, indicating a parallel between liberal democracies and authoritarian states.
- 🏛 The book argues that austerity policies are not neutral economic measures but are politically charged choices that suppress democratic participation and alternatives to capitalism.
- 🛑 Austerity's role is to maintain the status quo of capitalism by keeping the working class in check and accepting their exploited conditions.
- 🤝 The conversation emphasizes the need for the left to differentiate between worker ownership and state ownership, which can also be exploitative.
- 🌱 The script mentions alternative economic systems that emerged post-World War I, such as workers' councils, guild socialism, and cooperative movements, which aimed for democratic control over production and distribution.
- 🌟 The book 'The Capital Order' received recognition from Martin Wolf of the Financial Times, who noted the difficulty in imagining alternatives to capitalism that avoid dictatorship.
- 🌍 The discussion calls for a reevaluation of historical narratives and the recognition of existing alternatives to capitalism, which are often overlooked due to dominant ideologies.
Q & A
What is the main argument of Clara Matte's book 'The Capital Order'?
-Clara Matte's book argues that austerity measures, such as cuts to wages, fiscal spending, and public benefits, have paved the way to Fascism and have had devastating effects worldwide.
How does Clara Matte define the economic underpinnings of Fascism?
-Matte defines the economic underpinnings of Fascism as a combination of corporatism and state power, where austerity policies are used to suppress alternative economic systems and force the majority to accept conditions of exploitation.
What policies did Mussolini implement that Matte identifies as austerity?
-Mussolini implemented policies such as budget cuts, privatization, cuts in wages, and interest rate hikes, which Matte sees as austerity measures that suppressed any alternative economic system.
How does Matte's view of Fascism differ from the popular myth?
-Matte challenges the popular myth that Fascism is associated with laissez-faire market policies, instead arguing that Mussolini's Fascism involved harsh austerity policies that favored the elite at the expense of the working class.
What is Matte's perspective on the role of state intervention in the economy during Mussolini's regime?
-Matte suggests that state intervention during Mussolini's regime was not in opposition to austerity but was a continuation of it, aimed at supporting the investing elite and subjugating the working classes.
What alternative economic systems were emerging in Italy and elsewhere during the early 20th century, according to Matte?
-Matte discusses alternatives such as workers' councils, guild socialism, and cooperative movements that aimed to organize production and distribution democratically, giving workers more agency in decision-making.
How does Matte challenge the dominant narrative about the impossibility of alternatives to capitalism?
-Matte criticizes the dominant narrative that posits capitalism as the end of history and the best of all possible worlds, arguing that this restricts our imagination for alternatives and dismisses the potential of democratic, worker-led systems.
What is the significance of the 'red viennium' mentioned by Matte in the context of Fascism and austerity?
-The 'red viennium' refers to the period of 1918-1919, which saw significant demands for economic democracy and class struggles. Matte suggests that the success of austerity in pacifying the population allowed for the entrenchment of the Fascist regime.
How does Matte view the relationship between economic policies and democratic participation?
-Matte argues that austerity policies are not neutral but are political choices that preclude democratic participation in economic management and foreclose alternatives to capitalism.
What is Matte's stance on the idea of state ownership of businesses as an alternative to private ownership?
-Matte advocates for worker ownership as an alternative to both state and private ownership, suggesting that corporatized state ownership can be as coercive and exploitative as private ownership.
What role does Matte believe the international liberal establishment played in the acceptance of Mussolini's policies?
-Matte claims that the international liberal establishment applauded Mussolini's austerity policies, which helped to solidify the Fascist regime and suppress alternative economic systems.
Outlines
📚 Economic Austerity and the Rise of Fascism
In this segment, the discussion revolves around the connection between economic austerity measures and the emergence of fascism, as detailed in Clara Matte's new book. Matte, a professor of Economics, argues that austerity policies such as wage cuts, fiscal spending reductions, and public benefit cuts have had profound negative impacts globally. She emphasizes the historical example of Benito Mussolini's Italy, where such policies were implemented to suppress alternative economic systems and force the majority into accepting low-wage, precarious work conditions. The conversation also touches on the contemporary relevance of these policies and their role in shaping cultural and political landscapes, suggesting that austerity is not a neutral economic policy but a political choice with classist implications.
🛠️ Historical Narratives and the Continuity of Austerity
This paragraph delves deeper into the historical narrative of fascism, challenging the common perception that it is synonymous with state control of the economy. Instead, Matte highlights that austerity policies were central to Mussolini's regime and were instrumental in pacifying the population and suppressing class struggles. She argues that the state intervention that occurred later was not in opposition to austerity but was a continuation of it, aimed at supporting the elite at the expense of the working class. The discussion also addresses the public's misconception about state ownership of businesses and the need for the left to advocate for worker ownership and democratic alternatives to capitalism, which were prevalent in the aftermath of World War I but are often overlooked in dominant historical narratives.
🌐 Alternatives to Austerity and Capitalism
The final paragraph of the script focuses on the alternatives to austerity and capitalism that were explored in the past, particularly after World War I, and their relevance to present-day practices. Matte discusses the worker council movements and the idea of organizing production democratically to overcome class differences. She mentions the guild socialists in Britain, who aimed to produce for use rather than profit, and the cooperative movement, which was widespread at the time. These alternatives emphasized worker participation in decision-making and offered a vision of a society that was not dominated by the state or the capitalist market. The conversation concludes with a call to explore these alternatives further and to challenge the dominant ideology that presents capitalism as the only viable economic system.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Austerity
💡Fascism
💡Corporatism
💡Economic Underpinnings
💡Class Struggles
💡State Interventionism
💡Democratic Alternatives
💡Red Vienna
💡Guild Socialism
💡Cooperative Movement
💡Economic Democracy
Highlights
Clara Matte, a professor of Economics, discusses the connection between austerity measures and the rise of Fascism in her new book.
Austerity policies, including budget cuts, privatization, and wage suppression, have global devastating effects.
Benito Mussolini's regime implemented harsh austerity measures contrary to the popular myth of state control in Fascism.
Austerity policies are not neutral; they are political choices that favor the elite and suppress democratic participation.
The book 'The Capital Order' presents a provocative thesis on the parallels between liberal democracies and authoritarian states.
Economic policies like austerity are often justified as realism or prudence, but they have violent effects on society.
Mussolini's acceptance as the head of Italian government was due to his promises of austerity, similar to current policies.
Austerity policies were central to the entrenchment of the Fascist regime and the suppression of class struggles.
State intervention in the economy, as seen in the late 1930s, was possible due to austerity's pacifying effects.
The book challenges the dominant narrative that there is no alternative to capitalism, suggesting otherwise.
After World War I, there was significant experimentation with democratic alternatives from the bottom up.
Worker Council movements and guild socialism were examples of alternatives that emphasized worker participation.
Cooperative movements were widespread, advocating for worker centrality in decision-making.
The book suggests that alternatives to capitalism exist but are often overlooked due to dominant ideologies.
The discussion highlights the importance of worker ownership as opposed to state or corporate ownership.
Clara Matte emphasizes the need for the left to better articulate the benefits of worker ownership and participation.
The interview concludes by encouraging readers to explore the topic further through Clara Matte's book and related discussions.
Transcripts
[Music]
in a new book the capital order how
economists invented austerity and paved
the way to Fascism professor of
Economics at the new school for social
research Clara mate details how cuts to
wages fiscal spending and public
benefits have had devastating effects
across the world she joins us now to
discuss the book Clara welcome
thank you so much for having me
so Clara we talk about fascism a lot
especially in the Trump era and the
post-trump era and much of the
conversation has to do with kind of our
cultural instincts about what fascism
feels like and looks like from a kind of
specific kind of authoritarian lens but
very rarely is there a more robust
conversation about the economic
underpinnings of fascism this kind of
definition that talks about the the
merging between corporatism and state
power tell us why we should be looking
at austerity particularly in particular
as something that's a crucial Factor on
the road to fascism
thank you so much so um it's very
important to when speaking about fascism
to also look at what the actual uh first
originator of the fascist regime Benito
Mussolini did historically and what you
see is that unlike the popular myth
Mussolini applied harsh austerity
policies exactly the type of policies
the American citizens are seeing
implemented their own country for the
past 50 years budget cuts privatization
Cuts in wages and what we see now which
are interest rate hikes all these bundle
policies that had the structural effect
of suppressing any alternative economic
system and forcing the majority to
accept their condition of wage workers
that are forced to go work for a very
low wage in precarious conditions thus
Fascism and austerity are a very
powerful combination that was
experimented for the first time under
Mussolini's regime in 1922 onwards in
Italy and this raised the Acclaim and
the Applause of the whole International
liberal establishment so the capital
order has a very provocative thesis of
trying to show the parallelism between
supposed liberal democracies and what
happens in authoritarian fascists
States and show that ultimately the
violence of economic policies such as
austerity policies and by now austerity
are synonymous with
realism Prudence just economic policies
in general these type of policies are
not neutral they're not necessary but
there is specific classist political
choices that have the effect of
precluding democratic participation in
the economic management and especially
foreclosing any alternative to
capitalism and keeping the population in
check and accepting their condition as
exploited precarious workers
my understanding of uh Italy under
Mussolini's government is not that it
went an austerity router at least it
involves significant government control
of the economy
um the the state government came to own
the majority of businesses I know price
controls were implemented it was a
tightly centralized managed government
managed by the economy characteristic
right not of a government that kind of
pulls back and leaves everyone to defend
for themselves which is what I would
associate with austerity so I I guess
I would like to probe you further on on
that claim
yes thank you yes so this is very
important because historical narrative
are crucial to justify the present a
Bourgeois historical Narrative of
fascism has clearly tried to see fascism
with associate fascism with the word
corporatism and understand fascism as
the actual exact opposite of
laissez-faire Market policies actually
what you see is that this might be true
for the 30s even if we would need to
qualify that as well but certainly for
the years that were crucial for the
entrenchment and the just
justification of the fascist regime
austerity policies were Central so
Mussolini became accepted as a um
at the head of Italian government
exactly because he was able to promise
still what we see today again
privatization cuts and wages cuts and
social expanded spending and raises an
interest rate so I think it is important
to actually go back and look
historically at what was fascism was
about and it was not about State
intervention or better the type of State
intervention That Was Then happened in
the late 30s was possible because
austerity quelled the class struggles
the demands for economic democracy of
the 1918-1919 red viennium so once
austerity was successful in pacifying
the population in subjugating the
majority to the capital order then
Mussolini could also undertake some form
of statist interventionism but this
stated interventionism and this is one
of the claims of the capital order was
never really in opposition was austerity
it was in continued it was in continuity
because it was always about
incentivizing and supporting the few the
saving investing Elite to the detriment
of the working classes and this is
what's true also for the 30s and this is
such an important point because I think
so often in the public imagination we're
talking about State ownership of
businesses it is it is conceited in this
kind of authoritarian context and a lot
of people think well how what guarantee
do I have that the kind of
nationalization that sometimes
socialists Democratic socialists United
States will talk about is actually going
to yield benefits for the workers
instead of Simply concentrating power in
the hands of corporate Elites and I
think that's where I think the left
needs to do a better job of talking
about worker ownership as opposed to
um you know kind of as kind of a
corporatized state ownership that can be
just as coercive uh and exploitative as
private ownership so can you help us
understand what the kind of Alternatives
um to kind of austerity were emerging in
Italy and perhaps in other places around
the world that fascist authoritarians
were trying to undermine so that the
workers didn't have as much autonomy and
control to push back against these
authoritarian regimes
thank you yes first of all I really want
to stress what you just said which is
the fact that it's the dominant
narrative tries to show that the the
alternative to capitalism was a
non-alternative I was just mentioned by
Martin wolf as one of the best books in
2022 on the financial times and what you
see is that he ends by saying yes but
the idea that there can be an
alternative fascism that sorry an
alternative to capitalism that doesn't
end up in dictatorship and stagnation is
an impossibility so the idea of the end
of History the idea that we are in the
best of possible world is clearly
something that restricts our imagination
for the possible and of course calling
current the current Chinese government
communist remembering the USSR as the
Communist alternative this all helps
create the understanding that there is
nothing better that we can do except for
um current uh status quo capitalism so
actually what you see if you look at um
you look at what was happening on what
was happening historically after the
first world war so 1919 1920 were years
of great experimentation with Democratic
alternative that were actually coming
from below that were non-state that were
actually opposed to the state just as
much as to the capitalist Market because
the idea was that under capitalism the
state is how the British shop stewards
put it a servile State and helps
actually exploit the population so after
the first world war a variety of
Alternatives emerged which the capital
order describes in the first part of the
book and the intention of describing
these Alternatives is to give in
insights for present practices one of
the important ones were for example the
workers Council movements the idea that
in order to become all collectively
producers and go beyond the class
differences in society we had to
organize production democratically
through councils through assemblies and
also distribution this was true not only
in Industries but also in the
countryside where peasants actually
occupied land and decided to manage them
collectively then we had the case of the
guild socialist in Britain that were
very successful in producing for
um
views rather than profit and uh an
abolishing wage relations and also the
Cooperative movement was quite
widespread so all Alternatives that are
claiming the central agency of workers
and participation in decision making and
of course today given the heterogeneity
of the working classes we would have to
think about of councils that could be
also neighborhood councils something
that by the way is happening for example
in Chile in other places of the world
alternatives to capitalism are present
they are they're they're just never
spoken of because in a way they go
against
what is
um fruitful for the the dominant
ideology Clara I could talk to you about
this for an hour and I have on my own
podcast so people should go listen to
that if they want to know more about
this and of course to to read your book
but thank you so much for introducing us
to this topic and joining us today
thank you so much it's great
all right that's the capital order how
economists invented austerity and paved
the way to Fascism we'll have more
Rising for you right after this
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