Governance, leadership and digital transformation in times of AI
Summary
TLDRThas Lindu, a manager of Information Systems, discusses the challenges of public sector digitalization, emphasizing the need for strategic governance to facilitate digital transformation. With a background in design and teaching, Lindu highlights the importance of visionary leadership and the necessity of adapting to AI's complexities. The talk explores the role of universities in this shift, the balance between autonomy and central coordination, and the importance of not compromising academic freedom while embracing digital change.
Takeaways
- 📚 Thas Lindu's background includes design studies, UX and web design, and a shift towards strategy and governance in public sector digitalization.
- 🔑 The public sector has struggled with digital transformation due to a lack of digital infrastructure, strategy, and governance structures.
- 🏫 Universities are central to knowledge creation but are not the primary drivers of digital transformation, particularly in AI, which is often led by companies.
- 🤖 AI's complexity and its rapid development pose challenges for understanding and leadership, making it a timely and relevant topic for discussion.
- 🏛 The federated structure of Swedish universities, with decentralized departments, presents unique governance challenges in the face of digital transformation.
- 🧩 The identity of universities as both knowledge creators and government agencies needs to be balanced, especially when considering the impact of AI on academic freedom.
- 🔄 The necessity for visionary leadership during transformation is highlighted, suggesting that leadership can change more quickly than governance structures.
- 💡 Leadership should foster strategic conversations and focus on the infrastructure of organizational change without infringing on academic freedom.
- 📈 The balance between autonomy and central coordination within universities is crucial, especially when navigating the challenges of digital transformation.
- 📚 Books such as 'Managers Matter' and 'The Nature of Technology' offer insights into leadership during change and the complexities of technological evolution.
- 🔑 The enactment of current governance structures and focusing on leadership, strategy, and vision may be more effective in driving transformation than structural changes alone.
Q & A
What is the main focus of Thas Lindu's research?
-Thas Lindu's research primarily focuses on the digitalization of the public sector from a government and strategy perspective, with a background in design-oriented studies and experience in building apps within healthcare.
Why did Thas Lindu transition from a design-oriented role to a strategy and governance-focused approach?
-Thas Lindu transitioned because the public sector was unable to utilize the systems and platforms created due to a lack of digital infrastructure, strategy to absorb new ways of thinking, and governance structures to incentivize digital transformation.
What are the key activities Thas Lindu is involved in currently?
-Thas Lindu is involved in leading a division, teaching courses related to public sector digitalization, giving keynotes, having meetings, and conducting data collection with agencies, municipalities, and regions.
What is the significance of discussing AI in the context of public sector digitalization?
-AI is significant as it represents a transformative technology that is complex and challenging for leadership and organizations to understand, and it raises questions about the need for different leadership and strategies compared to other technologies.
Why is it important to focus on universities in the context of AI and digital transformation?
-Universities are important because they are knowledge creators and should be at the forefront of transformative times. However, they are not primarily driving digital transformation around AI, which is mainly done by companies, posing challenges to their role in society and methods of knowledge creation.
How does the federated structure of Swedish public universities impact their approach to digital transformation?
-The federated structure, with departments having their own budgets and freedoms, can make central coordination for digital transformation activities challenging, especially considering the varying levels of digital maturity and competence across the organization.
What are the core values that universities need to reflect on in response to the transformation brought by AI?
-Universities need to reflect on their core values of education, learning, and examination, and consider how AI and generative technologies might transform teaching, assessment, and academic integrity.
What is the 'donut model' mentioned by Thas Lindu, and how does it relate to university governance?
-The 'donut model' refers to a governance structure where there is little at the center and most of the power and resources are at the periphery, or departments. This model is significant in understanding the balance of power and autonomy within universities during digital transformation.
How does Thas Lindu suggest leadership should approach the balance between autonomy and central coordination in universities?
-Leadership should foster strategic conversations that do not dictate specific interests or research subjects but rather focus on the overall direction, infrastructure, and organizational change, respecting academic freedom and fostering trust-based leadership.
What are some of the challenges identified in the articles discussed by Thas Lindu regarding IT governance in universities?
-The challenges include a lack of strategy leading to a negative spiral of effects, financial structure issues, and the absence of new tools or rules to adapt to digital transformation, characterized by silo thinking, planning mindset, and non-digital leadership.
What is the role of leadership in fostering change and strategic dialogue within universities facing digital transformation?
-Leadership plays a crucial role in setting the direction, initiating conversations about the future, and ensuring the infrastructure supports the transformation without conflicting with academic freedom, emphasizing the need for visionary leadership.
Outlines
📚 Transition to Digital Strategy in Public Sector
Thas Lindu, a manager and researcher in Information Systems, discusses her journey from a design-oriented background in healthcare app development and teaching to focusing on the strategic aspects of public sector digitalization. She emphasizes the challenges and importance of digital infrastructure, strategy, and governance in facilitating digital transformation. Thas also highlights her current role in leading a division, teaching, giving keynotes, and engaging with municipalities to understand their digital needs.
🤖 The Role of AI in Public Sector Digitalization
The speaker delves into the relevance of AI in governance and strategy, especially in the context of public sector digitalization. She addresses common questions about AI's role, its integration in universities, and the need for different leadership and strategy approaches compared to other technologies. Thas also mentions the timing of AI's rise in relation to the pandemic and how it presents a complex and transformative challenge for organizations, including universities, which are traditionally slow to change but are now facing urgency due to AI's impact.
🏛️ Universities' Struggle with Digital Transformation
Thas examines the difficulties universities face in the age of AI, particularly concerning their traditional structure and the rapid pace of technological change. She points out the lack of strategy and financial structure leading to a negative spiral within universities, affecting their ability to adapt to digital transformation. The speaker uses case studies to illustrate the challenges, such as silo thinking and a lack of digital leadership, and emphasizes the need for strategic dialogue within these organizations.
🔄 The Federated Structure of Swedish Universities
The speaker discusses the unique federated structure of Swedish universities, where departments have significant autonomy, leading to a 'donut model' with little centralized power. This structure poses challenges for coordinating digital transformation efforts. Thas also touches on the identity crisis within universities, balancing between being knowledge creators and bureaucratic agencies, especially in the context of AI and its implications for education, research, and examination practices.
🌟 The Importance of Visionary Leadership in Transformation
Thas argues for the necessity of visionary leadership in driving organizational change, particularly within universities facing digital transformation. She suggests that while governance structures may take time to evolve, leadership can be adapted more swiftly to set direction and initiate strategic conversations. The speaker also addresses the balance between autonomy and central coordination, emphasizing the importance of not letting the digitalization efforts conflict with academic freedom.
📚 Continuous Learning and Adaptability in Technology
The speaker concludes by emphasizing the importance of continuous learning and adaptability in the face of evolving technology. She discusses the challenges of changing governance structures and the need for leadership to focus on enacting current structures and strategies rather than just redesigning them. Thas also highlights the importance of not mistaking direction and structure for academic freedom and the need for leadership to navigate this balance effectively.
📚 Recommended Reading for Organizational Change
Thas recommends several books for further understanding of leadership and organizational change, including 'Managers Matter' by Nicholas Foss and Peter Klein, which argues for the importance of leadership during times of change, and 'The Nature of Technology' by Brian Arthur, which provides insight into the evolution and complexity of technology. She also promotes her own book on public sector digitalization, suggesting its influence on shaping the thinking of the public sector in Sweden.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Digital Transformation
💡Public Sector
💡Governance Structure
💡Digital Infrastructure
💡Digital Competence
💡Digital Maturity
💡AI (Artificial Intelligence)
💡Leadership
💡Academic Freedom
💡Federated Structure
💡Identity Shift
Highlights
Thas Lindu's background in design studies and UX, shifting focus to strategy and governance in public sector digitalization.
Challenge of transitioning from design-oriented to strategy and governance-oriented research in digital transformation.
Importance of digital infrastructure, strategy, and governance for public sector to adopt new systems and platforms.
Thas Lindu's current role in leading a division, teaching, and engaging with municipalities on digitalization.
Digital transformation's focus on leadership, strategy, and governance, with AI as a timely and complex topic.
AI's role in public sector and universities, and the need for different leadership and strategy compared to other technologies.
The transformative impact of AI on knowledge creation and the challenges it poses to universities' traditional roles.
How generative AI affects education, teaching methods, examinations, and academic integrity within universities.
The necessity for strategic dialogue within universities to adapt to digital transformation and AI.
Analysis of IT governance in universities and the negative spiral caused by lack of strategy and financial structure.
Characteristics of universities with silo thinking, non-digital leadership, and lack of new tools in the context of AI.
The federated structure of Swedish public universities and its implications for digital transformation initiatives.
The balance between autonomy and central coordination in universities and the role of leadership in fostering strategic conversations.
The importance of not mistaking direction and structure with academic freedom within university settings.
The need for visionary leadership in transformation and the balance between changing governance structures and leadership roles.
The continuity of organizational change and the focus on leadership to navigate between direction and infrastructure.
The significance of enactment over structure in governance and the importance of current actions within the organization.
Rethinking the core values of universities in relation to AI and the necessity for an identity shift in the face of digital transformation.
Recommendations of books for understanding leadership in times of change and the nature of technology's complexity.
Transcripts
hi my name is thas lindu and I'm the
manager of this division of Information
Systems my research focuses on the
public sector digitalization from a
government and um strategy perspective
but I've come from a much more let's
say design oriented perspective
previously so I've done design studies
building stuff uh apps for instance
within healthcare for several years and
I'll also been teaching within ux and
action design web design uh way back in
time but the last five to six years I've
been focused on the strategy aspects of
the public sector because everything
that we created during uh the last 10
years ago for instance uh the public
sector weren't able to start using those
systems and platform that we built
because they didn't have the digital
infrastructure that there that was
needed they didn't have the strategy to
kind of absorb these ways of new ways of
thinking and they didn't have a
governance structure that kind of
incentivized this type of digital
transformation so in order to kind of
have an effect and an impact I had to
move from this quite design oriented
into a much more strategy and governance
oriented way of research and that
transition has been really challenging
ing but also very interesting to see how
to have an impact within an organization
an ecosystem and whole sector so I spend
my time uh leading this division um
teaching in courses like this but also
other courses in relation to public
sector
digitalization but also giving out there
and giving U Keynotes having meetings
and doing data collection with together
with agencies municipalities and regions
so we have a quite good finger toop uh
sensitivity to and where these
organizations are the need they have and
what type of help they
need so this presentation and this
module is about digital transformation
in the public sector it's about
leadership strategy and governance but
the two articles is not really about
what I'm going to talk about in this
presentation this is more of a meta
analysis uh but I think you'll if you
read the articles you'll recognize what
I'm talking about so in this talk I will
talk a bit about AI in the beginning and
why is AI relevant for this governance
and strategy talk and so on well uh when
we are out and talking to the public
sector which we are a lot then we get
questions on where are the where are AI
in the public sector how far have we
come um what are the universities doing
in Rel relation to Ai and so on do we
need a different leadership different
strategy in relation to AI than other
type of uh Technologies and so on right
so this is a very of course you know
very timely topic so it's interest
interesting to related this to the
public discourse and in relation to our
research and
articles so why so these articles do not
mention AI at all they are the data is
collect Ed and are written during and
after the pandemic but just prior to the
exposion of generative AI in a
sense so what I will try to say here is
something about digal transformation in
your
universities uh and while the first
article is based in one University uh
and it looks at the it governance
structure basically uh the other article
is about two three different agencies
but I will focus on the on the case b
which is about University as well so
I'll try to kind of take bits and pieces
from both of the Articles and say
something in
general so the focus of AI is really
about this transformative technology and
it could have been anything it's ra it's
more about the timing on this right but
what is a bit particular about AI or or
digital technology in general is that
it's quite complex it's hard to
understand for leadership but also for
people working in universities or in any
other company right so this is a central
argument that this technology is hard to
understand it's a bit of pack blackbox
and so on So based on that or or with
that as a baseline people react in
different ways and we can talk about
this as digital competence or an
organization we can talk about this as
digital maturity how well do I'm as an
individual digital competence how and
how do the organization digital maturity
understand this digital material that is
that we are talking about when we're
talking about AI so why is it
interesting to focus on universities and
of course universities are interesting
in several different ways right we're
doing research we are supposed to create
new knowledge uh and in transformative
times of course this type of knowledge
creation becomes extremely important
right but it's not primarily
universities that drive the digital
transformation and especially not around
AI That's done by companies so this is
not only challenging to the University's
role in society but it's also
challenging to the methods and the role
we take in kind of how do we create new
knowledge when the knowledge GR ation
happening outside of the University this
is not an entirely new thing definitely
not but it's interesting to see how this
is pushing methods and the way we think
about
universities of course it's also
interesting to talk about how do we
educate in times of AI uh how does gener
generative AI transform the way we teach
the way we exam and uh the way we kind
of correct writing for instance I mean
now you can use these chatbots to
produce text with a very high quality of
grammarly U of grammar and so on right
but the content is rather useless at
times but of course this comes down to
prompting and blah blah blah so how
should the university respond uh and
reflect around their core values of
education and learning and so on and
examination in relation to this
transformation so of course for for the
university the
transformation of the core things that
we do
is happening and this we need to adapt
to right so there needs to be some of
some strategic dialogue within the
organizations that are
within a transformation of any sort and
in relation to the Dig digital here U
this becomes especially interesting for
us as researches but also connected to
the type of pace a pace uh that uh that
that is quite much faster than other
forms of transformation that haven't
been
digital so it is interesting to look at
universities because they haven't
changed as much as some other
institutions in the in the world just
yet but this AI push is like the trigger
and it increases the sense of urgency
for people within the
university so looking into the Articles
a little bit more uh the medical
thinking article is focusing on a
university and the IT governance there
but on a very overarching perspective
you can see that the lack of strategy
creates a chain reaction and this
negative spiral that has a lot of
different effects but it's not just the
lack of strategy it's also the lack on a
financial structure and so on what
happens is that you get this negative
spiral that affects
whole work around the
digital this means that you get this
very traditional kind of conclusions
that we have seen so many times within
organizational science that when you try
to do changes and the governance
structure is not tailored to that type
of transformation you get apathy you get
cism you get everything of this negative
connotation to
change and and when you do that over and
over again and ask for different results
that's kind of both the definition of
stupidity but it's also you mag you you
you expect something magical to happen
that that's in very short one of the
cases right the other case if we pick
out case b and look at that and the this
this illustration that you see to the
right here you see that what's kind of
characterizing the univers
it's now I'm looking at the picture Silo
thinking uh planning mindset instead of
an experiment mindset uh non digital
leadership compared to digital
leadership and no new tools basically no
new rules so the lead the the university
is at like at the worst side in this uh
balancing act right especially compared
to the two other agencies so if you take
this together you see that this
particular University in a is a in a
quite bad
situation so we have talked a lot about
this uh when we are out speaking to
different public organizations in news
articles and so on what is really the
how can we build a new type of
governance that takes and kind of solves
this because it's easy to point to the
literature that is 50 years old told
with a basic basically the same type of
answer as that strong leadership an
agile type of governance structure and
strategies that points forward so and
kind of leads and set the
direction and still we are here
discussing these exact exact same
topics well what should we do
well first of all we need to say
something about public universities in
Sweden
uh they have a rather feder you can say
that they have a Federated structure so
the different departments or uh insun as
we would say in Swedish institutions
right they are basically on their own
they have their own budget and they are
free to do whatever they want so we have
this academic freedom and uh we
sometimes talks about this as the donut
model that it's empty in the middle and
all the power and the juicy stuff is in
the French
uh and this is important to understand
with this governance structure with this
kind of Federated struct structure you
have to weigh that in when you look at
different what type of um governance
structure would actually
work but in times of AI as we said we
need to coordinate we need Central
coordination for some type of activities
but since the lack of uh there is a lack
of of digital maturity and digital
competence not only at the center but
also in the at the fringes of this
organization we kind of tend to mix
things
up in this discussion about what is a
university and what is specific about it
um it's also important to remember that
a university is a government agency as
we've said but that doesn't go very well
with the idea of a University
universities should create uh new
knowledge should be a spearhead into
what's coming but also covering and
creating new knowledge of what has been
right but it's not driven by bureaucracy
normally I would say but it kind of have
mix that we mixed the identity of the
agency with this idea of the knowledge
creating University and I think there is
also an balance between these two
identities for me it's clear that
University is Prim primarily University
a con a knowledge Creator and that
should question and have a critical
attitude to the
world but for others it's the
bureaucracy the transparency the work
for equality that is more important and
I'm not saying that these values are
unimportant I think you understand that
but we're primarily a university and the
organizational form is yeah that we have
that we could have been an Institute or
we could have been something else but
now when we are an agency and I think
that has balanced so the agency
perspective have become more important
in lot in a lot of different parts of
the University so I think there is at
least for me uh maybe not an identity
crisis but I see the need for an
identity shift and this is tightly
connected to the uh digital
transformation and especially generative
AI because now when um Bots can generate
and it's so easy to cheat as some seems
to see it the question of what the
university is how do we examine students
and so on right becomes a really
important issue so we need to kind of go
back to the core values of our
profession and what universities do to
kind of maybe not NE renegotiate but
rethink this in a
relationship to Ai and this becomes
problematic in a sense if we do these as
individual departments and not together
uh in this Federated
structure and this becomes even more
problematic then with the low type of
digital maturity that this type of
organization
have
so okay so let's look a bit at the
necessity of visionary leadership and
the transformation
because yeah we can change the
governance structures and that takes
some time it's quite hard and it's a
long transition to find the new
structures of governance but leadership
on the other hand that can be changed
quite easily and take a leader
leadership role and now I mean
leadership like quite classic standing
on a scene and speaking and looking
straight into the camera and setting a
direction for an organization that is
much
quicker
uh but I don't mean that that should be
more authorative necessarily of course
we should still think about this
Federation right and value the type of
values that goes into
University uh that means that of course
we should have
this trust-based leadership we should
have psychological safety we should work
in this modern type with his modern
versions of leadership that doesn't
counteract a strong leadership role that
sets a direction and initiates different
type of conversations within the
organizations and and kind of ask for
feedback on about which direction should
we go where are we where should we go
tomorrow and what could we be tomorrow
like classical design questions actually
what ought to be that's what I mean what
we should discuss if we're discussing
transformation so then we come into this
quite classic question at the university
the balance between autonomy and Central
coordination and here there are a few
things that we need to guide
into so the role of leadership in
fostering these strategic conversations
is that we shouldn't at the University
it becomes extremely important that we
don't say that this particular topic is
of Interest or this specific research
subject right that's not what we're
talking about but there is a conflict
here since digital transformation and
digitalization is both something that we
need to do in order to transform the
university but it's also a research
topic and uh uh at our University we
have an IT faculty and and a department
of applied it where I work for instance
right so in people's head at the
different parts of the University there
is like conflict why should we do this
digitalization part shouldn't we put
money into my research subject as an
infrastructure at the University well
well I think all research subjects need
digital transformation need to rethink
how they create knowledge um in relation
to the digital material right
so that's why I think it's this type of
dialogue about so we don't make this
mismatch becomes really
important but I also think it's
important that we take this discussion
about the professional values so what is
it that universities do what is it that
I do as a teacher and as a researcher
and how
will digital Technologies like AI change
change my profession and what are the
ethics and what are the moral that we
should adhere to in these
design path that we are entering into
when we starting to negotiate where we
were going right so that the type of
dialogue and the type of structure that
the leadership should
initiate but also these structures on
compute for instance or gpus so it's
important that the leadership focus on
the
infrastructures of organizational change
and not what we ought to do in a very
more specific detailed manner right so
this navigation between the balance
between Direction
infrastructure so it does not get
conflicted with this academic freedom
that oh but the central universities are
telling us what to do no they're
building infrastructure to help you so
you can do it even better that type of
conversation Becomes of yeah huge
importance and in relation to these two
articles then I think this is what we're
talking
about so I mean we're not really talking
about structures for AI we're TR we're
trying we we'll building and we talking
about strategy and Leadership and so on
for organizational change Contin is
organizational change it today we talk
about AI tomorrow we talk about
something else a couple years ago we
talked about uh blockchain now we talk
about AI
so it's this continuous learning and
flexibility in relation to
technology that is what these articles
is about even though the articles is
much more about the problems and the
challenges in this conversation I've
tried to talk about I mean to make it
more specific about the universities and
relationships that has to do with these
specific questions that we don't never
get to fit into the article so to
speak
so yeah one of the also the final things
then
um so when we talk about these
governance structures and to design new
ones and change from the old to
something new we will always have the
old governance structures
partly left it takes years and years and
years for the to make the organizations
forget about the old so there is a
definite contingency path or
a or an Heritage from old governance
structures so it becomes really really
important to focus
on enactment of the current structure
how we act within the current structure
and the strategies and visions rather
than the structure itself we've seen
this quite many times that and and the
best example here is that a new leader
enters an organizations and do
reorganizations no we don't we know that
that does not work but change in the
governance structure is maybe sometimes
easier but harder in the long run right
so maybe a change of leadership and
Leadership Direction strategy and vision
is actually not only e easier but better
because because that can also set
structures in
motion uh that is more easily affected
in both the short and the long
run
and so it's easier also to change so the
second thing here it's easier to change
the Frameworks that might seem outdated
and so on right through their enactment
rather than their actual design I think
this is a an important point to think a
bit about so don't change I mean of
course we should change the governance
structures no question about that but
maybe we should start with leadership
and focus a lot more about that
initially this is also an old conclusion
right that without leadership it's no
idea there's no reason to start the
actual transformation but it's
pinpointed here
again and don't mistake uh Direction
and structure with academic freedom
within the university setting this
becomes Essential
Knowledge but I also want so so this
quote from a and Rowan from 1977 kind of
put its finger on this and I'll read it
and then we can think of bit together
around this it should not be assumed
that the creation of microscopic
rationalities in the daily activities of
workers affect social ends more
efficiently than the commitment to
larger institutional claims and purposes
and this quote uh when we use this we
try to catch just this
that it's not like the to control the
every day doings of people through
structures organizations and so on might
actually be
less important than setting the overall
goals and having the big
conversations but in this particular
article I think they are not saying the
way it is and like it is this way but
they're asking a a set of pretty good
questions and that opens up a debate
that maybe we shouldn't Focus so much on
the particular and more on the bigger
things and then we need to find out what
works best but I also want to end with a
couple of
books U so in times of organizational
change
uh managers matters so in this book by
Nicholas fos and Peter
Klein uh one of their takes is that this
leadership this uh leaderless
organizations that have been quite um a
popular topic for the last couple
years actually it might not work in
times of change because in times of
change you need more leadership not less
you don't need the traditional top- down
hard uh controlling leadership ship you
need trust based but you need a
leadership that sets Direction because
if you're moving fast forward of course
you need somebody that steers the boast
more actively that is an important part
to take with you so in D in in times of
change you need more not less leadership
the next book I want to point to is a
bit of self-promotion and this is in
Swedish so for you who don't read
Swedish um yeah sorry this is the book
of offend the sector digitaling is
written by un minus onom me and this is
kind of covers a lot of the stuff that
we say the thing with this book is that
a big part of the public sector in
Sweden reads it so this will have like
transformative effects on how they are
thinking so if you're interested in the
public sector read it and see how they
would think about the future
directions and I also want
to point out this gem the nature of
Technology by by Brian author so I
talked a bit about digital complexity on
the complexity of Technology right and
he has a take on I mean what is
technology and how does it evolve and it
becomes increasingly complex and one of
the takes in this book is that now you
shouldn't look at a bicycle and that's
development from a bicycle with big
wheels and how it transformed into what
bicycle is today because we tend to look
at digital development in that uh
technical development in that sense we
look at the species uh bicycle and look
at how that invol evolve right to
understand how EV Evolution within
technology happens that's the wrong
perspective there is only one
technological species and it's
technology that's one species in a whole
and Technology borrows from different
parts of the tech technological Spectrum
so you take a GPS combine it with a
Wi-Fi combine it with a radar and you
get central Parts in a mo modern mobile
phone
right so to try to to to understand the
complexities and the fastpaced
development you should read this book
because it says a lot about the
nature of technology and you also I
think it's important to
understand why Tech a bit of
technological understanding is so
important for today's leadership
okay so let's wrap up so with all this
then we have two articles that talk
about governance structures and really
about the problems in modern
universities and other type of agencies
I focused particularly on kind of
address this in the current conversation
around AI to point out that leadership
is really really important we knew that
from before but even with AI and so on
it still a it's still a truth we also
need to recognize the structure of the
University that is Federated and that
comes with typic with uh questions that
are important and also the low digital
maturity and digital competence within
this
organization makes it hard for the or
organization to understand that well
don't mix building of new structures
that help you do re better research with
uh with and create the false conflict
that that kind of affects your academic
freedom I don't think it's true you can
counter argue against that if you want
to so I try to argument and do a meta
analysis around what I think about when
I read these articles rather than the
topic of each article in itself thank
you and see the see you in the
discussion forums and so on
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