Intel Raptor Lake Ring Bus Flaw Leak: Bartlett Lake is Affected, and there’s no Instability Fix!
Summary
TLDRThe video discusses Intel's Bartlett Lake rumors, suggesting it's not a budget platform as rumored but more for networking and high-frequency trading. It highlights potential issues with Intel's Raptor Lake, including high voltage causing failures and a possible ring bus flaw. The video also speculates on the impact of these issues on Intel's reputation and compares Intel's transparency with AMD's approach.
Takeaways
- 🤔 Intel's Bartlett Lake is rumored to be a Zen3 AM4 competitor, but sources suggest it might not be as interesting to consumers as expected.
- 💬 The first source indicates that Bartlett Lake was never intended for client use and Intel's 10nm process is expensive, making it uncompetitive for budget users.
- 🔌 Bartlett Lake is reportedly aimed at networking and edge applications, as well as high-frequency trading, rather than general consumers.
- 🕰 If microcode updates for Raptor Lake are insufficient, Intel might need to reduce clock speeds on Bartlett Lake, affecting its competitiveness with AMD's 2025 products.
- 🚫 Bartlett Lake is said to have the same hardware flaw as Raptor Lake, which could impact its reliability and performance.
- 🔥 The leading theory within Intel is that the ring bus in Raptor Lake is overheating due to high voltage requirements, potentially affecting Bartlett Lake as well.
- 🌡️ Raptor Lake's design was rushed, and there were concerns about the ring bus being damaged if voltage was pushed too high, indicating potential issues with yield and reliability.
- 🏭 An oxidation issue at Intel's Arizona Fab in 2023 is suspected to have affected Raptor Lake and possibly Sapphire Rapids, but not Meteor Lake or Emerald Rapids.
- 🛠️ The microcode update for Raptor Lake expected in August is anticipated to improve chip longevity but may still result in some performance loss and is not a complete fix.
- 💔 Intel's handling of the Raptor Lake situation is seen as a PR and financial disaster, with potential long-term impacts on consumer trust and brand reputation.
Q & A
What is the main topic of discussion in the video?
-The main topic of discussion in the video is the rumored Intel Bartlett Lake product, its potential as a competitor to Zen3 AM4, and the issues surrounding Intel's Raptor Lake chips.
Why might Bartlett Lake not be as interesting to consumers as initially thought?
-Bartlett Lake might not be as interesting to consumers because it was never intended for client use, and Intel's 10nm process is expensive, making it uncompetitive as a budget platform.
What are the alternative uses for Bartlett Lake mentioned in the video?
-The video suggests that Bartlett Lake could be used for networking, edge computing, and possibly high-frequency trading, rather than general consumer products.
What potential issue with Raptor Lake is discussed in the video?
-The video discusses a potential hardware flaw in Raptor Lake, specifically with the ring bus getting 'cooked' due to high voltages required for the P and E cores.
How does the ring bus issue in Raptor Lake affect Bartlett Lake?
-The ring bus issue in Raptor Lake could also affect Bartlett Lake if it is overvolted similarly, suggesting an inherent flaw that would be present in both products.
What is the significance of the microcode update for Raptor Lake?
-The microcode update for Raptor Lake is expected to mitigate some of the issues with the ring bus and potentially improve the longevity of the chips, though it may not be a complete fix.
What is the potential impact of the Raptor Lake issues on Intel's reputation and market position?
-The Raptor Lake issues could lead to a public relations and financial disaster for Intel, with potential negative impacts on consumer trust and competition with AMD.
How does the video suggest AMD is capitalizing on Intel's situation?
-The video suggests that AMD is delaying the launch of Zen 5 to appear more transparent and honest, potentially positioning themselves as a more reliable alternative to Intel.
What is the role of the Intel Arizona Fab in the Raptor Lake issues?
-The Intel Arizona Fab is mentioned as a location where Raptor Lake was rushed through production, and where an oxidation issue was identified, potentially contributing to chip failures.
What advice does the video give to consumers who currently have a Raptor Lake chip?
-The video advises consumers to wait for the microcode update in August, which may improve chip longevity, but also warns that the chips may still eventually fail due to inherent design flaws.
What is the broader implication of the issues discussed in the video for the tech industry?
-The broader implication is that transparency and honesty in product development and communication are crucial for maintaining consumer trust and avoiding damaging PR crises, as seen with Intel's situation.
Outlines
🤔 Bartlett Lake: A Misunderstood Intel Product
The first paragraph discusses the rumors surrounding Intel's Bartlett Lake, which is often portrayed as a budget Zen3 AM4 competitor. However, multiple sources from Intel suggest that this perception might be misguided. The first source indicates that Bartlett Lake was never intended for the client market but could potentially appear in OEM products. Intel's 10nm process is expensive, making it an unlikely choice for a budget platform. The second source reveals that Bartlett Lake is more suited for networking and high-frequency trading rather than general consumer use. Additionally, there are concerns that if the microcode update for Raptor Lake is insufficient, Intel might need to lower the clocks on Bartlett Lake, further reducing its competitiveness with AMD's products in 2025. The paragraph also hints at a hardware flaw in Bartlett Lake, similar to that of Raptor Lake, which could affect its performance and reliability.
💡 Understanding Raptor Lake's Issues and Expectations
The second paragraph delves into the complexities of Raptor Lake's problems, suggesting that there are multiple factors at play. The speaker believes that Intel is over-binning chips and pushing them beyond their limits, leading to potential failures. Raptor Lake was hastily developed, adding more cores and increasing voltages, which might have resulted in a less robust architecture. The speaker also speculates that Intel is pushing more i7 chips to become i9s to meet demand, possibly leading to more failures. A second issue is an inherent flaw in Raptor Lake's design, where the ring bus and the power and efficiency cores are on the same rail, causing voltage drops that could lead to chip failures. The third issue is related to Intel's Arizona Fab, where there might be an oxidation issue affecting the chips. The speaker also discusses the upcoming microcode update in August, suggesting that it might only provide a partial fix with a minimal performance hit but not completely resolving the longevity issues.
🔍 Investigating Intel's Manufacturing and PR Challenges
The third paragraph continues the discussion on Raptor Lake's issues, focusing on the manufacturing process and potential problems at Intel's Arizona Fab. The speaker calls for fellow tech enthusiasts to investigate batch numbers to determine if oxidation is a significant factor in Raptor Lake failures. The speaker also addresses the upcoming microcode update, suggesting that it might not be enough to save Intel from the public relations and financial disaster they are facing. Concerns are raised about the chaotic rollout of these updates and the potential for further failures. The speaker also mentions AMD's strategy, delaying Zen 5 to appear more transparent and capitalize on Intel's issues, positioning themselves as more honest and reliable.
📢 The Need for Transparency and Intel's Leadership Crisis
In the final paragraph, the speaker emphasizes the importance of transparency in Intel's communication about their products. The speaker criticizes Intel for not being upfront about the issues with Raptor Lake, leading to tech channels having to perform investigative journalism to uncover the truth. The speaker also highlights the chaos within Intel, with even employees reaching out for information about their own company's products. The speaker suggests that this situation reflects poorly on Intel's leadership and calls for a change in how they handle such crises. The paragraph concludes with a call to action for viewers to share the video to help other tech channels in their investigations and a reminder of the importance of community support through Patreon.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Bartlett Lake
💡LGA 1700
💡Zen 4
💡Raptor Lake
💡Ring Bus
💡Microcode Update
💡Overvolting
💡Binning
💡Oxidation Issue
💡Sapphire Rapids
💡PR Disaster
Highlights
Intel Bartlet Lake rumors suggest it is not as interesting to consumers as initially thought.
Bartlet Lake was never intended for client use, according to an Intel source.
Intel's 10 nanometer process is expensive, affecting the budget appeal of Bartlet Lake.
Bartlet Lake is more suited for networking and high-frequency trading, not general consumers.
Potential need to drop clocks on Bartlet Lake due to microcode update issues with Raptor Lake.
Bartlet Lake is rumored to have the same hardware flaw as Raptor Lake.
Intel's ring bus might be getting damaged due to high voltage requirements.
Raptor Lake's design and validation process was rushed, possibly leading to overlooked issues.
Oxidation issues at Intel's Arizona Fab could be contributing to Raptor Lake failures.
Sapphire Rapids might also be affected by the same issues as Raptor Lake.
Intel's over-binning and high voltage strategies might be causing chip failures.
An inherent flaw in Raptor Lake's architecture could be causing voltage drops and chip failures.
Intel's Arizona Fab might have a specific issue affecting the quality of Raptor Lake chips.
The upcoming microcode update in August is expected to improve Raptor Lake's longevity but not completely fix the issues.
Intel's PR and financial disaster due to Raptor Lake issues could impact consumer trust and future sales.
AMD is capitalizing on Intel's issues by delaying Zen 5 with transparency.
Intel's lack of transparency is forcing tech channels to do investigative journalism to uncover product issues.
Transcripts
[Music]
for a couple weeks now there's been much
ad do about Intel Bartlet Lake rumors
with most articles characterizing this
product as some sort of zen3 am4
competitor meant to turn LGA 1700 into a
proper budget platform below LGA 1851
long term but here's the thing according
to multiple sources at Intel that I
spoke with I'm hearing that we really
shouldn't be sure Bartlett Lake is all
that interesting to Consumers the First
Source that I spoke to at Intel said
that as far as they are aware Bar Lake
was never intended for client and well
they guess they could see some CPUs hit
de yourself in OEM it won't be because
it's budget at all Intel 10 nanometer is
very expensive and this is just a public
fact now we've seen an ifs earnings
reports that it is woefully
uncompetitive in pricing compared to
tsmc's current nodes and so if the idea
was to keep using this well really drawn
out an expensive node for as long as
possible I do not think that's Intel's
plan at all at least not for Budget
users now the Second Source I spoke to
at Intel said that barlet lake is for
networking an edge maybe also for high
frequency trading but not for general
consumers furthermore if the micro code
update for Raptor Lake isn't effective
enough they might even need to drop the
clocks on Bartlet lake so they won't
break and if that happens it's not going
to be competitive with amd's products in
2025 at all so yeah look Bartlet Lake it
exists but it isn't on a lot of people's
radar because it really shouldn't be if
you're someone who wants to buy this for
a gaming rig or something it is coming
out so late as well rumored to be coming
like a year from now that I just don't
think it'll be competitive with anything
AMD has out at the time so yeah I don't
think it's that interesting to talk
about except well you know you probably
noticed from the title and thumbnail of
this video that there is something worth
talking about and Bartlet and that's
that it seems to have the same Hardware
flaw in it that Raptor lake has now of
course when that source source number
two from the slide told me that it had
basically the same flaw as Raptor Lake I
of course immediately followed up and
then we had a long conversation about
what is probably making Raptor Lake
products break and so now if I put these
quotes on screen Source number one here
with Source number two on the other
Slide the person told me that the
leading theory inside Intel right now is
that the ring bus is getting cooked
because it's fed by the same rail as the
p and the E cores remember they even
double the amount of EES and Raptor Lake
required incredibly High voltages to hit
the clocks required to be competitive
with Zen 4 and it seems like it was just
pushed too hard that the ring bust is
getting cooked by these high voltages
that are connected to making the PE
cores clock incredibly high that this is
an inherent flaw that would also be in
Bartlet Lake if Bartlet lake is
overvolted as much as Raptor Lake now
the good news is that this person tells
me that meteor Lake isn't affected and
that Emerald Rapids is unlikely to be
affected materially as well so then I
took this information I reached out to
one of my longest running sources at
inel someone who's been instrumental in
so many leaks and I said is this true
does this make sense to you as an
explanation and the person said that
they never directly worked on Raptor
Lake but that they did have exposure to
Alder Lake and they can confirm that the
team working on Alder Lake was very
concerned about the ring bus getting
damaged if the voltage was pushed too
high and this person also confirmed that
R Lake was rush through their design and
validation process really quickly so
perhaps they just didn't catch this is a
problem in many of the yields now a
third Source I reached out to I called
up this person works at Intel foundaries
and they did confirm again that Raptor
Lake was rushed through their Fab in
Arizona in record time but it is
produced other Fab it's not just
produced in this Fab in Arizona however
this location is notable though because
they can confirm that there was an
oxidation issue caused by some failures
in the HV system at this plant between
March and June of 2023 it was so bad
that Kavon esfarjani had to fly in to
make a decision about which Wafers
needed to be thrown away which is a
really big decision because each wafer I
told costs as much as a model X and to
be clear though this person doesn't know
what the decision was like which parts
were thrown away uh which at what stage
in the manufacturing process they said
hey anything but before this we have to
throw away this person doesn't know that
it's above their pay grade but they do
know that this happened and a decision
like that was made and also that this
this would have affected Sapphire Rapids
so if oxidation were to be the main
issue for Raptor Lake failures you
should expect to see that in Sapphire
Rapids products as well now oxidation
probably is a contributing factor to all
the failures we're seeing but it doesn't
sound like it's the main one although I
do have to say it's really interesting
guess who just left Intel Kavon es
farani this timing is insane and so you
know after talking to all of these
people literally anyone I know at Intel
that I could get on the phone this week
I have to say that I'm fairly confident
that I know what is going on with raptor
Lake and it is not just one thing and I
want to summarize the whole situation to
you all and also tell you what I'm being
told you should expect in terms of like
how well it will work out of that micro
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let me summarize the three not one the
three main issues that I believe are
causing failures in so many Raptor Lake
chip and the first one is that I think
Intel is just bending way too many chips
too high with an architecture that just
probably isn't as robust as Alder Lake I
mean think about it Raptor Lake was hily
thrown together in record time and its
entire stick was that we added more
cores to the same design and also upped
voltages a ton something that you rush
out there with really high voltage that
just seems like you're asking for
problems to me and I believe that in
conjunction with the fact that it's just
rushed at too high of a voltage Intel is
pushing far more i7s to become i9s in
order to meet demand than they should be
and now to be clear about what I mean by
this point what I'm saying is that
though Raptor Lake actually is better
than Alder Lake and an Apples to Apples
sort of way like you know Raptor Lake
does require less voltage for the same
clock speeds I still believe that most
of the yields cannot handle it as well
as until thought they could when they
were preparing Raptor Lake and what
gives me so much confidence in this idea
is that I've long heard since even Intel
13th gen that Intel can't make enough I9
to meet demand and so it wouldn't
surprise me if there was a lot of
pressure to push as many i7s as they can
into I9 and maybe they just
underestimated how many of them really
shouldn't be pushed that hard and in
fact that makes even more sense when you
consider the disastrous earnings you are
seeing with Intel right now and the bad
margins the products with the highest
margins are I9 and so I would guess that
intel was desperate to push as many
chips as hard as they can to keep good
margins now that's the first problem
over binning and not really testing
Raptor Lake as much as they should have
but the second problem is that there
actually is though it unrelated to that
there is actually an inherent flaw in
Raptor Lake I am told you know Raptor
Lake doubled the ecores while still
having the ring bust and the peores and
the E cores all on the same Rail and so
if you think about that how high they
push those voltages when I I'm told is
that a problem arises when the V drop
causes viid to exceed around 1.5 volts
and then well it Cooks itself and of
course the more p and the E cores you
have at the higher voltages in a CPU the
quicker that CPU is going to break
itself which is why you're mostly just
seeing the highest core count highest
clocked models break at least for now
and that's why occasionally disabling
eor when the instability starts to
happen can fix it but it's still likely
going to break eventually and if it's
completely broken disabling the eor
isn't going to do anything now the
reason I still think though that some
chips are never failing because a lot of
people are saying that some chips no
matter how long they run them at high
voltages they're not failing is that I
just think those chips are golden
samples it can probably handle it Intel
is bending way too many imperfect chips
into the top end with an inherently
flawed architecture and so unless you
have a golden sample a lot of them are
going to break although if you do have a
go golden sample I mean they did design
the architecture for higher voltages it
wouldn't surprise me that some of them
actually can take it now finally the
third issue yeah look I am told that
there is something wrong at Intel's
Arizona Fab and actually I would like to
put this out there i' like to request
that fellow Tech tubers or devs or
people who have access to a lot of data
look at their samples and look up the
batch number I believe if you take that
batch number and inquire to Intel where
it was manufactured they would tell you
so we can figure this out look I don't
think oxidation is is the main cause of
raptor Lake failures I do think it could
be contributing to it though and if you
want to prove it then prove it we can
take the failed products of raptor Lake
we can look at their batches and if
they're all coming from the Arizona PB
which I am told is the one with the
oxidation issue then we can prove if it
is or isn't from that but if it is from
that I would expect to see more Sapphire
Rapids failures as well especially more
Sapphire Rapids failures in the second
half of last year and then have those
failures go away that would prove some
of the oxidation stuff but I don't have
that data but I'm sure someone else out
there does but anyways what if you do
have a raptor Lake chip right now in
your system should you expect that micro
code update that's coming out in August
to actually be a good enough mitigation
for the issues to go away for you to
stop worrying well what I'm basically
being told and now keep in mind this is
coming from people within Intel we're
not really going to know until it's
tested in the wild and they're probably
biased towards this but what I'm hearing
from within Intel is that they actually
do expect that the micr code mitigation
will only have a single digits
performance hit some people think it'll
be very very very minor and that they do
genuinely themselves honestly believe
that it will massively improve the
longevity of the chips but think about
what I'm saying here you're still going
to probably get some slight performance
loss and it's improving the longevity it
isn't a complete fix it just means that
if you have an 94900 K assuming it
hasn't already been eroded enough for it
already to be a problem that once this
micro code update is out it will take
years not months for the chip to break
but that this is still probably
something that will eventually break
sooner than some battle hardened
architecture that lasts for decades like
we sometimes see when people brag about
Sly using sandybridge
and you know I've actually got to say
that even if the micr code update does
work well like there's a minimal
performance losses and the systems that
get the micro code updates well those
CPUs last for many more years I still
don't think think that's going to be
enough to really save Intel from this
mounting PR and financial disaster that
they are hurling into right now the the
oems and motherboard manufacturers that
I speak to expect the roll out of these
micro code updates to be very chaotic
and tons of people are worried about
like well maybe we'll handle it well we
hope but like what about that other
motherboard manufacturer that had a
terrible Baseline like update that like
broke bioses like how is that not going
to happen with this and frankly are we
really sure there's going to be a way to
force most Raptor Lake users to get this
micro code update like I'm sure you know
uh Enthusiast gamer watching this
channel you know you you you've got your
ear to the rail you're very involved
online and learning about all these
little updates I'm sure you'll update
your system but what about all of the
casual gamers or people that just bought
a laptop to use at home and don't pay
attention to this news like are they
really going to be fiddling in their
bios or is there really going to be a
safe way to force the micro code update
in like a Windows update in a way that
doesn't end up also causing other
problems once they try to do that I just
think there's no way around the fact
that there's going to be a mountain of
millions of Ras that Intel is going to
have to be dealing with for years now
and the pr damage I mean it's it's
already done this is just blowing up
into bigger and bigger and more
mainstream websites and even if someone
has a like a Intel laptop that is n one
of the dies that's likely to break I
can't help but think that if this keeps
getting more and more mainstream that
you could see someone just sitting at
home their laptop breaks they see the
Intel sticker and they go well there it
is I'm not using them again I mean think
about do-it-yourself Gamers like no one
that I've spoken to is excited to buy
AOL Lake right away with this problem
they're going to want to wait months or
a year to see if AOL lake has the same
problems that Raptor lake has this is
just a complete PR disaster and well I
guess I'll also say that yeah AMD is
capitalizing on this delaying Zen 5 with
tons of transparency so they can
probably both launch next to Intel's
slightly nerfed chips once they're
updated uh and so they'll look a little
worse than the benchmarks but also so
that they look like a good guy but you
know I do want to be clear about this
Zen 5 delay thing going on right here
well I have no doubt that AMD is happy
to play up the fact that they seem to be
being more honest than Intel and I'm
sure they are also very happy that Intel
may have a slight performance Nerf right
next to a Zen 5 launch that they've
delayed I don't think that they just did
it for those reasons I do believe that
AMD probably found a minor defect in a
small batch of their chips one that they
could probably just rolled the dice on
and said hey it's not a big defect the
pro most of them are probably fine I
mean we just armade the small amount
that break you know we could get away
with it I think they could have done
that but I think maybe they'd learned
from the 7900 XTX Vapor cooler defect a
completely stupid wave of unnecessary
neily bad PR that just hit them because
like 20% of one batch had defective
coolers I think amd's learned I think
that's what we should take away from
this Zen 5 delay is that AMD has learned
that even if it isn't a huge deal uh
even if you're worried that being honest
about it would create more bad PR that
being honest about it is actually what
stops all the conspiracy theories from
going around and making you look like
you're hiding something more than you
really are that is what I think is going
on with AMD Zen 5 delay right now and I
do think that this is really the thing
to close on with this video is how
absolutely ridiculous it is that
multiple Tech channels are forced to do
basically investigatory journalism to
find out what the heck is going on with
Intel's products instead of Intel being
honest and upfront about what they know
and what they don't know to the point
that even people at Intel I have new
sources by the way too who contributed
to this video are reaching out to me
because they want to know what's going
on with their own company's products
that is so chaotic and in my opinion
that shows that there's just something
wrong with the leadership at Intel right
now if they can let this go on that long
to the point that their own employees
are gossiping about the issue
and yeah that's basically all I have
left to say on this video I hope you
enjoyed it if you did please make sure
that you like it that you comment down
below for the algorithm and also that
you share it I actually think sharing
this video is more important than usual
because the findings that I have in it
could assist other Tech tubers in their
investigations like I was speaking with
Wendell offline the other day and I know
that he is continuing his work as well
you know the more we share this stuff
the more we're going to get down to the
bottom of what's going on here and then
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n
[Music]
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