Les Hackers face à la Surveillance d'Internet | Avec Bluetouff

Summary

Dans cet épisode captivant, l'invité Olivier Laurelli, alias Bluetouff, partage son parcours en tant que hacker et activiste des libertés numériques. Des affaires judiciaires aux enjeux de la surveillance et de la cryptographie, il aborde aussi les défis de la vie privée avec les technologies émergentes. Des leçons d'hygiène numérique aux conseils de sécurité pour les utilisateurs de crypto-monnaies, il propose des pistes pour rester vigilants face aux menaces grandissantes sur les libertés individuelles.

Takeaways

• 🕵️‍♂️ L'importance de la vigilance numérique : Olivier Laurelli, alias Bluetouff, insiste sur la nécessité de rester informé des vulnérabilités et de maintenir une bonne hygiène informatique, surtout pour les activités liées aux crypto-monnaies.
• 🛡️ La ségrégation des activités : Il est recommandé d'utiliser des appareils séparés pour différentes activités, afin de protéger les informations sensibles et de prévenir les accès non autorisés.
• 📚 L'éducation sur la sécurité informatique : Bluetouff suggère de se renseigner sur les bonnes pratiques en matière de sécurité, comme le site SecNum Academy, pour renforcer les connaissances et les réflexes de sécurité.
• 🔒 La protection de la vie privée : Il est essentiel de s'intéresser à des outils tels que les VPN pour protéger l'anonymat en ligne et éviter la surveillance excessive.
• 🛑 L'alerte sur les technologies de surveillance : Le texte souligne les risques liés à l'adoption croissante des technologies de surveillance, comme la détection comportementale dans les systèmes de vidéosurveillance.
• 🚫 La résistance aux tendances de surveillance : Bluetouff exprime ses inquiétudes quant à l'escalade des mesures de surveillance et la création de précédents qui peuvent les perpétuer.
• 🏦 Les défis de la confidentialité avec les CBDC : Il est questionné l'anonymat et la surveillance liée à l'utilisation des monnaies numériques centralisées (CBDC) et les risques de contrôle et d'abus de pouvoir.
• 🔑 La nécessité de la pseudonymatité : L'importance de défendre la pseudonymatité dans les transactions cryptographiques est soulignée, car elle est un élément clé de la liberté financière.
• 💡 L'intérêt pour les technologies de preuve de connaissance zéro (ZK) : Bluetouff mentionne le développement et l'importance des technologies ZK pour améliorer la sécurité et la confidentialité des transactions sans révéler d'informations sensibles.
• 🌐 La surveillance en ligne et les risques pour les libertés : Le texte met en lumière les menaces pour les libertés individuelles dues aux mesures de surveillance en ligne et l'importance de rester vigilants face à ces menaces.
• 🔄 L'évolution des perspectives sur les crypto-monnaies : Bluetouff partage son parcours personnel de méfiance envers les crypto-monnaies à un engagement plus profond et une compréhension de leur rôle dans la protection des libertés financières.

Q & A

Quel est l'exemple simple donné pour illustrer la surveillance de comportement et comment cela pourrait être utilisé aux Jeux Olympiques?

L'exemple donné est la surveillance vidéo avec détection de comportement, qui est déjà mise en place depuis des années dans des municipalités comme Nice. Il est question de légaliser cette forme de détection pour une courte période lors des Jeux Olympiques, mais on s'interroge sur la possibilité de désactiver ces dispositifs après le test.

Quel est le contexte de la création du média appelé 'reflection.info' par Olivier Laurelli?

Olivier Laurelli a créé 'reflection.info' au début du conflit en Syrie pour couvrir des sujets comme l'armée électronique syrienne et explorer des serveurs syriens.

Pourquoi Olivier Laurelli a-t-il été mis en garde à vue suite à la découverte de documents sur un serveur non protégé?

Olivier a été mis en garde à vue car il avait téléchargé des documents du serveur de l'Agence Nationale pour la Sécurité de l'Environnement et la Santé, qui était supposé être public mais contenait des documents privés.

Quels ont été les résultats juridiques pour Olivier Laurelli suite à l'affaire des documents de l'ANSES?

Après plusieurs instances judiciaires, Olivier Laurelli a été reconnu coupable de maintien frauduleux et de vol de données, bien que les documents ne soient pas保密 et que le serveur n'était pas protégé, ce qui a créé un précédent juridique.

Quel est le lien entre l'histoire d'Olivier Laurelli et la notion de 'hacktivisme'?

Bien que Olivier n'ait jamais se considéré comme un hacktivist, ses actions de recherche et de publication de documents sur des serveurs non sécurisés ont des éléments communs avec le hacktivisme, qui est l'utilisation des compétences informatiques pour promouvoir des causes politiques ou sociales.

Quel est le rôle de l'association FDN2 dans l'histoire d'Olivier Laurelli?

FDN2, l'association que Olivier a créée avec d'autres, a été utilisée pour collecter des dons pour des associations, notamment pour Wikileak, lorsque ses comptes ont été saisis suite à la publication de documents confidentiels.

Comment Olivier Laurelli décrit-il son parcours avec les technologies cryptographiques et le Bitcoin?

Olivier a découvert les cryptomonnaies suite à l'affaire Wikileak et a essayé de miner du Bitcoin, mais il a perdu de vue l'intérêt pour un moment. Plus tard, après un échange houleux sur Twitter, il a commencé à s'intéresser de nouveau aux cryptomonnaies, en particulier à Ethereum et à son potentiel de programmabilité.

Quelle est la position d'Olivier Laurelli sur les cryptomonnaies face aux défis de la vie privée et de la surveillance?

Olivier reconnaît l'importance des cryptomonnaies pour la liberté financière et la protection de la vie privée, bien qu'il admette que les technologies actuelles ne garantissent pas une anonymité complète et peuvent être utilisées pour la surveillance.

Quels sont les risques potentiels que Olivier Laurelli voit dans l'utilisation de cryptomonnaies comme les CBDC (monnaies numériques centrales)?

Olivier souligne que les CBDC peuvent devenir des outils de surveillance et de contrôle, surtout si elles sont utilisées de manière à permettre une analyse des transactions et une surveillance des mouvements financiers des individus.

Quel conseil Olivier Laurelli donnerait-il aux personnes intéressées par les cryptomonnaies et la sécurité numérique?

Il recommanderait de maintenir une bonne hygiène informatique, de se séparer les activités sur différentes machines, d'utiliser des VPN pour la sécurité et la confidentialité, et de s'informer régulièrement sur les vulnérabilités et les bonnes pratiques en matière de sécurité numérique.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Présentation d'Olivier Laurelli et contexte de surveillance

Dans le premier paragraphe, l'animateur introduit Olivier Laurelli, alias Bluetouff, un hacker qui a été poursuivi par l'État pour vol de données. Le contexte de surveillance est abordé avec l'exemple de la détection comportementale dans la vidéo-surveillance, déjà mise en place dans des municipalités comme Nice. La discussion sur la surveillance est liée à l'installation de millions d'appareils de surveillance, soulignant les implications pour la vie privée et la désactivation prévue après les Jeux Olympiques. Un sponsor, Unblock, est également mentionné pour son service de compte bancaire lié à une crypto-monnaie.

05:00

👤 L'histoire de Bluetouff et son implication dans la législation sur la propriété intellectuelle

Dans ce paragraphe, Olivier Laurelli partage l'origine de son surnom, Bluetouff, lors d'un événement de démonstration de la technologie Bluetooth par Microsoft. Il discute également de son implication dans le cas juridique connexe à son surnom, après avoir téléchargé des documents non protégés du serveur de l'Agence Nationale pour la Sécurité de l'Environnement et la Santé, ce qui a entraîné une poursuite pour vol de données. Il aborde la question de la surveillance des technologies de surveillance vendues par des entreprises françaises à des États avec des normes de libertés et de droits de l'homme variables.

10:02

📚 La poursuite et le procès de Bluetouff pour le vol de données

Ce paragraphe détaille le procès de Bluetouff suite à la découverte de documents non保密 sur un serveur public. Il explique les raisons pour lesquelles il a été poursuivi, malgré le fait que les documents n'étaient pas marqués comme confidentiels et que la personne poursuivie n'était pas une partie civile. Il relate le verdict initial de non-responsabilité, l'appel de la décision par la procureure, et la condamnation finale de Bluetouff en appel, ainsi que son appel à la cassation qui a confirmé sa culpabilité pour maintien frauduleux et vol de données.

15:06

🤔 Réflexions sur la surveillance et la crypto-monnaie

Dans ce paragraphe, Olivier Laurelli partage son opinion sur l'évolution de la surveillance et de la crypto-monnaie. Il discute de l'impact des crypto-monnaies sur la surveillance financière et la nécessité de la pseudonymatité dans les transactions. Il mentionne également les défis liés à la surveillance des transactions blockchain, en particulier pour Bitcoin, et l'importance de défendre la liberté financière et la confidentialité.

20:09

🔒 L'importance de la confidentialité et la lutte contre la surveillance

Le paragraphe aborde la question de la confidentialité et de la surveillance dans les technologies numériques, y compris les crypto-monnaies. Il discute des technologies de preuve de connaissance zéro (ZK) et de leur potentiel pour améliorer la confidentialité et la sécurité des transactions. Il souligne également les risques pour la vie privée posés par les infrastructures ouvertes et les analyses de données, et la nécessité d'éduquer les législateurs sur l'importance de ces technologies pour la sécurité et la liberté financière.

25:13

🌐 La surveillance technologique et les préoccupations pour la vie privée

Dans ce paragraphe, Olivier Laurelli exprime ses inquiétudes concernant l'escalade de la surveillance technologique, en particulier avec l'arrivée des monnaies数字货币 centrales (MNBC) et les systèmes de surveillance vidéo. Il insiste sur la nécessité de maintenir une bonne hygiène numérique et de se séparer des tendances de surveillance, en adoptant des mesures de sécurité telles que l'utilisation de VPN et la séparation des activités numériques sur différents appareils.

🛡️ Conseils pour la sécurité numérique et la préservation de la vie privée

Le dernier paragraphe fournit des conseils pratiques pour les téléspectateurs sur la manière de protéger leur vie privée et de maintenir une bonne hygiène numérique. Il suggère de rester informé des vulnérabilités, de mettre en place une stratégie de sécurité IT, d'utiliser des VPN pour l'anonymisation, et de ne pas connecter ses portefeuilles crypto à des sites non fiables. Il recommande également de se séparer des activités et de ne pas utiliser le même appareil pour toutes ses activités numériques.

Keywords

💡Surveillance vidéo

La surveillance vidéo est un système utilisé pour analyser le comportement des individus à travers des caméras. Dans le script, il est mentionné que cette technologie est déjà en place dans des municipalités comme Nice et pourrait être utilisée pour des tests lors des Jeux olympiques. Elle est un élément clé dans la discussion sur la protection de la vie privée et la liberté individuelle.

💡Détection comportementale

La détection comportementale fait référence à l'analyse des comportements humains à travers des technologies de surveillance. Elle est utilisée pour identifier des comportements anormaux ou suspects. Dans le script, l'auteur discute de la légalisation temporaire de cette technique pour les Jeux olympiques, soulignant les risques potentiels de surveillance excessive.

💡Liberté numérique

La liberté numérique est le droit d'accéder et de communiquer librement sur Internet sans restrictions arbitraires. Le script aborde cette notion en discutant des menaces contre la liberté numérique, comme la surveillance et la censure, et l'importance de rester vigilant face à ces menaces.

💡Cryptomonnaie

Les cryptomonnaies sont des formes de monnaies numériques décentralisées qui fonctionnent grâce à la technologie blockchain. Le script mentionne les cryptomonnaies comme un moyen de protéger la vie privée et de résister aux contrôles financiers et politiques, notamment avec l'exemple de WikiLeaks.

💡Pseudonymat

Le pseudonymat est la pratique de masquer l'identité réelle derrière un faux nom ou une identité fictive. Dans le contexte des cryptomonnaies, c'est un moyen de garantir la confidentialité des transactions. Le script discute de la différence entre l'anonymat et le pseudonymat dans le monde des cryptomonnaies.

💡Conformité

La conformité fait référence à l'adoption des comportements ou des normes sociales acceptés. Dans le script, l'auteur évoque l'idée que les gens devraient adopter de bonnes habitudes en matière de cybersécurité et de protection de la vie privée pour ne pas se conformer aux tendances de surveillance.

💡ZK (Zero Knowledge)

Zero Knowledge est une technologie qui permet de prouver la possession d'une information sans révéler cette information elle-même. Dans le script, l'auteur mentionne les avancées récentes dans les ZK et leur potentiel pour améliorer la sécurité et la confidentialité des transactions.

💡ADOPT (Adopción de medidas para proteger la propiedad intelectual)

ADOPT est une loi qui a suscité de nombreuses controverses en France, visant à lutter contre la piraterie sur Internet. Le script mentionne ADOPT comme un exemple de législation qui menace la liberté numérique et la protection des données.

💡Cybersécurité

La cybersécurité est la protection contre les activités malveillantes en ligne, telles que le piratage et la fraude. Dans le script, l'auteur insiste sur l'importance de la cybersécurité pour protéger les données personnelles et les transactions financières, notamment dans le contexte des cryptomonnaies.

💡CBDC (Monnaie numérique centrale)

Les monnaies numériques centrales sont des devises numériques émises par les banques centrales. Le script aborde les risques potentiels de surveillance et de contrôle associés à l'utilisation de CBDC, soulignant la nécessité de protéger la vie privée dans ce contexte.

💡Hacker

Un hacker est une personne qui détourne les systèmes informatiques pour des fins malveillantes ou, dans le contexte positif, pour explorer et protéger les systèmes contre les vulnérabilités. Le script présente l'invité comme un hacker qui a été poursuivi pour le vol de données, illustrant les défis et les enjeux liés à la cybersécurité.

Highlights

La surveillance vidéo avec détection comportementale est déjà en place depuis des années dans des municipalités comme Nice.

Légalisation temporaire de la détection comportementale pour les Jeux Olympiques, mais les appareils installés ne seront pas désactivés après le test.

Olivier Laurelli, alias Bluetouff, est un hacker qui a été poursuivi par l'État pour vol de données.

Le surnom Bluetouff est issu d'une blague lors d'une conférence sur la technologie Microsoft.

Le vol de données a été découvert lors de la guerre en Syrie, en piratant des serveurs non protégés contenant des documents de l'ANSES.

La première instance a été gagnée par Laurelli, mais l'appel a été réussi et l'État a obtenu gain de cause.

La Cour de cassation a considéré que l'accès frauduleux et le maintien frauduleux étaient deux infractions distinctes.

La condamnation de Laurelli a créé un précédent pour la législation sur le vol de données.

L'affaire ADOPI vise à donner aux entreprises le pouvoir de surveiller et de contrôler les utilisateurs d'Internet.

L'ADOPI a finalement échoué, mais a permis la formation d'une offre légale pour le téléchargement.

La Quadrature du Net et d'autres associations continuent de défendre les libertés numériques face aux attaques persistantes.

Les cryptomonnaies ont un rôle à jouer dans la protection de la vie privée et la liberté financière.

La pseudonymatité des transactions cryptographiques est un enjeu majeur pour la protection de la vie privée.

Les technologies de preuve de connaissance zero (ZK) ont le potentiel de supprimer les mots de passe.

La mise en place d'une hygiène numérique saine est essentielle pour protéger la vie privée et les comptes crypto.

La surveillance et la collecte de données deviennent des préoccupations majeures avec l'avènement des CBDCs et d'autres outils de surveillance.

Il est important de rester informé des vulnérabilités et de mettre en place des mesures de protection pour les appareils et les comptes numériques.

Transcripts

I'll take you a very simple example, everything that is video surveillance with

behavioral detection, this thing has been in place for years in municipalities like Nice,

finally here it is and we say we'd like the Olympics if we did a little test so we're going to

legalize behavioral detection for a short period but once you have

installed multi-million devices like that guys it's still great

this thing we see everything and everything do you honestly believe that they will deactivate behind

thank you for finding us on unhosted today my guest is Olivier Laurelli alias Bluetouff

he is a hacker who was prosecuted by the State for data theft with him we are going to talk about

digital freedom surveillance and crypto of course first to start this episode is sponsored by unblock

dbloc it is the first current account to be linked to a real crypto wallet you can

register in less than 2 minutes for free and with the link in the description you

even automatically participate in a draw for win €10,000. we left straight away with

Bluetooth hi Olivier hi claire thank you for coming to see us thank you for the invitation so your

name is Olivier laurelle but we mainly call you Bluetooth so can you

tell us about where does this nickname Bluetooth come from then it comes from a trade show which

was called the Linux solution at the time there was Microsoft which came to present its technology

so in a Linux solution trade show something which was quite interesting it's the first time that he came

there from elsewhere and we found ourselves at their stand during a demonstration to

simply troll them with three friends so Bluetooth technology exactly

and at the time they called me tuf ou t touf because I had very long hair, a

big beard and very quickly in fact my nickname drifted to Bluetooth because of this episode where

my wise friends told me touf touf come on and Bluetooth everyone died of laughter on the stand

and that's where it comes from, so you didn't really like Microsoft, no, that hasn't changed, but you're

also known following the Bluetooth affair, yeah, there's definitely a legal case that bears

your name, well, your nickname, can you tell us how she started this affair

yeah so it starts at the time of the start of the war in Syria so I I had set up a

media called reflection.info which is still active by the way I recommends going for

a little look at it and we were covering something called the Sirrian electronic army and

we were going to dig a little into the Sirrian servers and so thanks to a search I found myself

on a server of sharing of nses documents which was not protected so with lots

of documents on it and I said to myself hey I'm going to download them that's what the ns is

the National Agency for Environmental and Health Safety d 'okay so it's it's an authority

it's exactly it's a state body what we call an OIV uh and so I started

downloading all these documents I said to myself it could be useful and then I said to myself,

we might be able to find information on the 4G antennas which were being deployed at the time,

we were on 4G at the time and uh no news for months and one day I two police officers

who came to my door to present me with a summons so I didn't

really know what it was so several weeks later I went to the summons and there I came

across four agents from the DGSI of the SRI at at the time and who informed me that I was in police custody

and then I didn't know why he asked me why and we scratched a lot of

French companies which sold surveillance technologies to States more or less accommodating

with freedoms in actually we are going to say and human rights and so I thought that it was for that

but in fact not at all they informed me that it was for the nses something that I found very funny

at the beginning because it is a public server with public documents on health issues

public of a public body but the documents were supposed to be private so I find myself in

police custody search at home my machines are seized and so I go to first instance

where I win because well no intrusion the server was not protected there were a lot

of documents on it but the server was not protected the documents were not marked

as confidential and moreover they were not even herself a civil party because she had

recognized that the documents themselves were not confidential but uh well in short it goes to

trial but therefore why were you prosecuted here Paret okay so it's really

the State which was pursuing you for the prosecution for theft of given exactly in mind the theft of data finally at

the time the theft of data was not yet legally sanctioned so it was the opportunity

even though the authority did not take civil action and did not condemn itself

not plignon there was no victim there av no trouble at the ORD but I was pursued by

the prosecution so I go to first instance where I win and the prosecution appeals the decision

eto surprise the prosecution wins ah yes so on appeal you lose this time I lose on appeal I

appeal to cassation and to cassation what is said in fact basically I am indeed found

guilty of fraudulent maintenance and theft of data implicitly because the Court of

Cassation does not all discussed the theft of data they are limited to saying that the fraudulent access

and the fraudulent maintenance were two distinct offenses so basically I was sentenced for

fraudulent maintenance in a public space you were sentenced to what I was sentenced to I think

it was a €3,000 fine. Well, it's a somewhat anecdotal sentence but it creates a precedent

if you like, so that's why we appealed to the Supreme Court and you have what did you feel when you

found yourself with this this conviction you found it absurd I imagine ah but completely

absurd it was that is to say and you were you had support at the time because yes yes yes

obviously I imagine this affair must have caused a bit of a stir anyway yeah it still made

noise so already by the character a little bit curious where there is no victim or anything and

all that and and above all the fact that there was when even a fault of the NES somewhere

which had not protected these documents at all where there was nothing which was which was protected and

once again they were working documents they were not state secrets there was nothing

extraordinary in fact in there ok the first time I heard about you it was via

Fabrice épelbin with whom we shot an episode in Studio for for a hos too and

you described him with the word hackur h could you explain to us what you are doing today

do you consider yourself a ha cur al me I myself I have never really considered myself

a heart in fact I am a hacker I I started with a small blog on which I

tinkered with wifi routers, I flashed boxes in fact to make wick networks,

mesh networks and uh and I documented a little bit of my wanderings on things that were a little bit techy and

that's really what I think from the split finally really a break with the story of adopi

where there is this bill which arrives at the time it was not yet voted on at all and we all find

the idea of ​​criminalizing completely stupid worst of all, can you explain in

two words what happened because I think that among the people watching us there are people

who are familiar with that but it's true that it's it's quite jargonous for the then ADOPI

it is it is a law which then became an institution so I do not even remember the

acronym of intellectual properties and which aimed to give network surveillance per all

worse to companies private so they have a role of policing ell flash Internet users and then

we first receive an email to tell us that downloading is very, very bad

and that kills the artists uh and then well we can go as far as a connection cut

knowing that I know of no case of connection cut by laadopine because that posed

other legal problems and that was the era also of all the illegal streaming sites

besides I upload MGA video B it's the big problem when you criminalize

the non-commercial exchange that represents the worst all worst you inevitably have smart people who say

I'm going to go up a website on which I'm going to stick an advertising agency and do [__]

a lot of digging so it obviously fed small mafias and that's it, it's overall a

failure but it gave time for a legal offer to be formed and and I think

that really the download is worse, worse, yes indeed it is more than it was

but today there is a legal offer so which was not at all the case at the time and so you

say there is a sort of schism that was created with the arrival of adopi you are part

of this generation of I would say activists of committed people who were opposed to ADOPI

how did you experience the passage of this law and what are the consequences of this

law today then we have always been against finally with the small environment in which

I evolved so the Quadrature of the Net all these genes we closely monitored everything what was

an attack on digital freedoms moreover that has not changed the quadrature still does an excellent

job and everything and the attacks are still as violent on digital freedoms as a

general rule the consequence today is that the adopi has merged with the arcom which suddenly

finds itself with the internet in its sights in addition to the teleche uh I want to tell you that

it's a it's a little escape forward it's it's good they are harmless I know few

people who still receive letters even if it still happens but the doopier has become

completely anecdotal today and therefore for you the landscape of digital freedoms is

what he has arranged is deteriorated it is I have the impression that it is stagnating a lot in fact

but you have to remain vigilant if it is stagnating it is because you have people who are working hard behind it

including the Pirat party including the Quadrature du Net including associations of defense of

digital rights at the national level I am thinking of the FF for example the electronic frontiè Foundation

uh but these attacks are going to be more and more violent in any case as

people who at a certain time had the right to speak public and all that feel that there

is still something that escapes them so it's normal to go and type on the Internet and if in addition

you add the Brig crypto with the stories of transfer of value you know that we are still

gone for around fifty years beating each other up or else you killed I don't know if you looked

if you are very familiar with crypto subjects but what is your vision on this precisely as

an activist for freedoms digital so I have I have a history which is very

very particular with cryptos I saw them arrive at the time of WikiLeaks really at

the time of WikiLeaks when WikiLeaks had its accounts seized, its Paypal and everything So there

is it was visa which completely blocks all their accounts with a handful of Gus we created an

association at the time so Benjamin Bayard of Quadrature du Net notably in the lead to take

donations for associations it is something called fdn2 the net neutrality defense fund

which financed the cadature of the net and Wikileak because by a magical agreement we

were a French association a magical agreement between CB and visa we could take teeth to

Wikileak I see Bitcoin arriving at that time I'm a little interested in it I try to mine

it works yes and then I move on to something else because it simply didn't interest me

and then I think I'm getting intoxicated by not bad by Bitcoin it's bad that thing and

I have had a very negative opinion for quite a while like a lot of people like a lot of

people but for me it was curious because I had already seen a use for Bitcoin I knew that people

had made donations to yx in Bitcoin so I knew that this thing was useful for something

and uh so I left the thing for a long time and then one Saturday morning I do

n't know what's wrong with me I said to myself hey I'm going to troll the bitcoiners on Twitter and the troll is

very very violent but really very very violent yours or everyone's counter troll

and the thing lasts several days you know finally really a very long thing very very massive and

I start talking with people all the same who sell me arguments that are not so

stupid that I hadn't particularly thought about and all I say to myself is that I still looked more

closely at this crypto story of Bitcoin and then I discovered etum at that moment- l and therefore

the programmability all that there is still something which is really nice from a

strictly gu point of view I say to myself there is something which is really nice I am starting to be interested in atom

also at SDK so at the atom development kit I look a little bit at how it works

I say [ __ ] they really did some stuff what is it during the while I turned

my head things happened and I'm starting to get involved in it at the very end of 2021 ok so

really at the end of the end of the bull market yeah that's it but I'm really getting there little by little so that

's it and then I say to myself I'm going to perfect my education a little bit and there I come across some content

really I have a tendency to consume a lot of content on Youtube and all that

so I discover Alexandre Sachenko in particular I discover a lot of things in fact which

open my eyes a little bit I I start talking with lots of people so Sébastien

Gouspillou finally there it is and well I realize that Bitcoin ultimately isn't that bad that

it serves a purpose and that it makes sense and I really arrived at the moment at the end of 2021

when we were wondering, well we know that we are going to have a big inflation because they really

screwed up on printing and then I say to myself I am still going to put a little bit in savings and uh

I think that that was a good calculation yeah even if it was perhaps not exactly a good time to do it

it wasn't exactly a good time but in no case did I regret it so what's more I was really

little by little because I wanted to understand a lot of different things so I invested

a little bit in a lot of different networks. I notably ran an are Célestia on

the TestNet, things like that, well, that's it, ok, so you have a positive vision today of the

ah today I have more than a positive vision I have a vision of necessity in fact and and you

think that in the political landscape Actu to I am thinking in particular of the latest attacks

on anonymity on the social networks for example or more simply to the political tensions that

there are in the country at the moment do you think that cryptos in there perhaps in particular

Bitcoin have a role to play or are all the more necessary or ultimately it remains a backup just in case

then there are two things you have to understand that these stories of attacks on anonymity

are recurring since I have been on the Internet I have heard about the anonymous attack naut

who is killing artists with modems now uh the arrival of cryptos still changes one

thing which is fundamental is that we arrive at the price on square price of banks uh of

financial institutions of the fisque of here and obviously k it is necessary monitor all these little people but how

do we go about monitoring all these little people because already on the one hand we understand nothing about it

we are given laws to calculate taxes where we need software which must consume

in my opinion as much as mine Bitcoin for 3 days to calculate your tax form

uh you ask for clarification from the son who is quite

incapable of answering you because they themselves don't actually understand anything about the method of calculation

uh but behind all that well you you you you feel that there is still a desire to be interested

in us it's normal eh pon the state anyway he will he will inevitably come and take an interest in

it uh so there anonymity once again on blockchain you are not particularly anonymous you are

rather pseudonymous except made of monero well really of networks which are made for that

and uh and even telling you I do everything on monero you shouldn't believe that's it, it's going to be

a party because at some point we have to go out uh that's it, so that's the first point, the story

of anonymity, so we've been systematically coming back to it for a very, very long time, the cryptos

are going to be simply an angle of attack if you want additional to certain eurod deputies

to say you saw it's anonymous bad guys and then what's more now they finance

terrorism it's it's a great classic so the fight is going to be great long uh it will be won

because in any case we will always succeed if we wish to remain anonymous there is there is

always a way in fact between quotes but the idea is still to have a

legal framework which is not stupid which does not scare away all the companies which allow people to invest

and not find themselves on foot and point linked to the last loan which for example Sandrine Rousseau offers

to go tap into the savings but we are going to take a big loan national good ok uh no finally

financial freedom is something obviously important uh the anonymity which has behind it or

rather the pseudonymity we must defend it it is a good which is very which is very precious uh I

want to tell you to say that it is even the most precious thing because it is the one which will

also condition the exercise of T other freedoms uh so there it is, it's a fight which will be super long

it's it it's not won but yes the cripons have something to contribute there is the technological aspect

I don't know if this is the place perhaps to approach them with everything that is uh with everything that

is with ZK uh the zero knowledge does all that so that's a real question because

uh today you said it the cryptos are pseudonymous but apart from some of them

like monero you Z cash they offer very high traceability and the fact that

the technical infrastructures are much more open and much more Open Source

also poses a certain amount of risk for privacy because you have companies that

do data analysis uh and so is that that we are not going to witness uh a kind of race

like that uh in the technical and financial infrastructures uh to move towards things that are

a little more anonymous uh which guarantee anonymity and financial freedom as you

say uh there where cryptos in general like Bitcoin which are still very attacked ultimately

uh also become tools for the traceability of transactions yes then in

the case of Bitcoin at least the traceability is delivered by default so either we say to ourselves

well we will make overlays on top and we are going to implement certain things to add a

layer a little bit of anonymization even if I don't want to talk about anonymization for

everything that is blockchain it has to remain all the same our our distributed shared account book

open readable but yes it poses security problems for wallet holders

once they are identified it poses problems finally on a daily basis for people in

fact of no longer being anonymous on well at least for crypt for crypto activities so there

are things to find indeed I know that etherum asks a lot of questions the

etherum foundation asks a lot of questions precisely to add layers of anonymization

of transactions we will have to explain that now to the legislator to explain to them that

it's not a fad it's not to try to finance terrorism it's just for our

security and the fact that it works and that this ecosystem can simply live uh

so there is a lot of work it will come through disruptions it will come through technological

logical ruptures at one point or another I think it will come from etherium I doubt it

will come from something like Solana for example uh that could come precisely atô environment it

could finally come from lots of things but at the heart of that well there are precisely these technologies

of action and of Zero knowledge so we know that we are going to go more or less that way in any case

so let's talk about it because abstractly it's still relatively recent it's been a year

and a few ZK you see I've been in crypto for years and I remember in 2017

2018 I had devs in my company who were already doing a little research and development on

ZK and so I say to myself it's been 7 years since we heard about it what is what

is real today is it that it is progressing and what can we expect from it then there is

immense progress because the ZK I don't think I'm saying anything stupid I think it dates from the end

of the 80s anyway so it's really This is really not something that is very

recent now the implementations and uses on the blockchain take time

to be developed already we have identified this technology for quite some time as you

said and we know that it is something that will bring something to the world of crypts so

maybe we can explain uh if you get there in a few seconds there is there is the allegory

of the cave going in on one side Well, that's simply the concept of ZK, it's uh

to provide proof that we are where we are or that we have something without disclosing it yeah, it's for example

proving that I'm over 18 without giving my date exactly and so you say that it's normal

that it takes time yeah uh for you what will be the social contribution of these technologies there

let's take an ideal world you see in 30 years where these techno ZK have spread and are used

by companies what is the benefit of having these technologies the first thing I see is

making passwords disappear it's a thing and hell so I have evolved quite a bit so in

the world of SQ and all that and uh uh I believe that in 20 years if you want the thing the first

point of failure is really the passwords because it's the people who choose them

the 3 /4 of the time even if today there are password manager technologies you

can generate things randomly without having to remember them but it's not enough and the same

making passwords disappear is something that I've been hearing for maybe 20

years but I think the first ones I heard about getting rid of passwords

must have been Microsoft and so what would it look like to get rid of passwords

how is it? -would that work ah it's a very good question for the moment I have

absolutely no idea I'll tell you but uh we have some ideas if you want for example with the ubiki

so I don't know if you know a little bit this system which is to have a key T

so a physical device uh which you will use a little bit like a Leder to prove

your identity uh there the idea will be in addition to dematerializing this thing so it is perhaps

your boilette who will provide proof of identity that you are indeed such a person

and uh without disclosing your identity to the site that you are going to on which you are going to uh

interact OK and that is and that Don't worry, when I imagine a world where there are no more passwords

and where we have a physical device, it's very reminiscent of a futuristic fantasy, you see, where

we all have a chip implanted under our skin, uh which allows me there is something that

actually allows me to manage my passwords more that it has to be implanted under the skin there is no problem hey

I want to have betta tested eh ah yes you do would be yeah yeah there's no problem yeah

the hybridization between humans and technology doesn't scare you no no it's not something that

I'm afraid not at all then it depends on how it's done it's the same if we give you a

tell a device which is not open source which is that's who it is you can have doubts if you want

but let's say that 'from the moment it's well done where the technological Bries are well chosen

where the code is free and open why not and then it's a very specific function it's

the same it doesn't have to be something that makes you the coffee behind or yes OK and so

what is cool to you you say that it doesn't matter to you but what is the world

that is cool to you well the world that is cool to me this is the one towards which we are trying to move slowly

so around everything that is a question of surveillance uh then the surveillances

there are plenty of forms of surveillance there we see the CBDCs arriving in not long we can

swear to ourselves that it will be anonymized patati patata we know that it is anyway it remains a

monitoring tool in the evening the way in which it will be distributed the way in which it will be programmable and

so well we call it melting currency this kind of thing you know that it is a

means of control a means of surveillance uh and experience when you give this kind of tool to people

who are simply involved in politics who are not particularly in a totalitarian perspective

they tend to abuse it, so when you give it to people who are a little more totalitarian than

the others, it's not that they're going to abuse it, it's that they're going to be subjected to something, but the thing that's

dangerous is that we're doing all of a sudden you see a project a real libertide bill it's

not going to happen all at once we're not going to ask you the thing like that ok we're going to monitor the entire internet

we're going to put dpacket inspection everywhere and then htps c

it 's over you are

going to give us

'there was already a brick in another and everything you realize Queen does there is already

the system which is in working order I'll take you a very simple example eh everything which is

video surveillance with behavioral detection this thing is in place for years in

municipalities like Nice, finally here it is uh and we say to each other for the Jos if we did a little

test and so well we are going to legalize behavioral detection for a short period

but once you have installed multi-million devices like that and the guys

say to themselves ah it's still great this thing we see everything and everything uh do you

honestly believe that they will deactivate them behind at the end of the period of test you create a precedent

which allows them to reactivate it if exactly you have created a precedent you have understood everything therefore you

have created a precedent and well in another text you want to have a legislative rider aiming to extend

this menu this measure which is which had to be which must be provisional well you are going

there you are going to perpetuate it so you are quite worried ultimately about all these

surveillance trends yes because it is a major trend there we are we are really on a

major trend yeah it is what are the major signals that you see there, you are talking about the Olympic Games which

are indeed quite emblematic of this new stage but do you have

other signals because you said that the attacks on anonymity on social networks

ultimately it's something that we've had for a long time and that's what's

a little pernicious you don't necessarily see things happening from afar but you already have a

history behind where it All it takes is a little thing, a very small extra brick, to open up

an almost infinite field of possibilities for you, so you see everything that is Lia's introduction

, precisely on surveillance video things, well that's a good thing that if it's done you see

you say to yourself that's it if it's done for for com anis to recover the license plates

people who park in double line or something like that for more than 4 seconds ok why not but

that's never how it happens after a while you always have one who will test another

algorithm to say well, finally it could also be used for that and for me that's what worries me

if you want it's the escalation it's the little by little it's the homeopathic surveillance backs that we

put in society which worries me the most yes I understand and no but it ties in with a

conversation we had with YC de Bombine in this podcast talking about CBDCs when he

told us central bank currencies will not be imposed all at once but precisely this will happen

little by little with little by little the possibility of paying your taxes for example in

central bank currency com paying the civil servants with you say well here we are going to do an AirDrop among

the civil servants why not so what is it? what would you advise to people

who are watching us who are probably curious about these subjects? Are there any

practical actions that we can implement, whether in their use of digital technology?

example or whether it is in terms of information you see reading I don't know well let's say that the

first thing to do then it's true that it's super hard but keep a little bit up to

date with the latest vulnerabilities for example it's something so why because it's

important to keep all these tools up to date whether it's the phone or

the computer and I'm not talking to you about the divices on which you're going to look at your crypto accounts

so there even more uh there is something that I like it is segregation so you have

a machine which is used strictly to do that another which is used strictly to do that and there is

no point between the two uh so it's it's really good computer hygiene it's

really very logical if you want you don't need to be a hacker to tell you well

I'm going I'm going to buy some cryptos and start do this and that there is just a little bit of logic

to be had so it's really good computer hygiene on this you go for example to

the lency site there is something called I think that it's all secnum which is a kind of

big quiz and all that I recommend people to do it because it's always interesting

to see where we are precisely in relation to these good reflexes we will put it in the description that

everyone can go and do the secnum academmy it must be yeah secnum academy

so what you advise is to personally put in place good digital hygiene

yeah precisely to not conform perhaps to the major trends which are those who arrive

who are put in place and who would perhaps be easy to adopt there is already the first thing

is to adopt the right reflexes really adopt good reflexes for example not connecting your

wallet to any site to request an AirDrop that we found on Twitter that's really

the basic thing uh then the the the the second step is really to inform yourself to be a little

bit aware of everything that's happening and to say to yourself well here I am going to put in place an

IT hygiene strategy so what is an IT hygiene strategy is I am not going

to go and connect to my accounts with my crypto accounts with my phone I don't install

the new snipets in mtamasque which I don't know which I don't really know the

origin of there is there is there are so many ways to get fooled that's it so that's

really the the basic thing the second thing which is a little bit so to preserve a little

bit its privacy its confidentiality uh it will be to be interested in everything which is precisely

bah VPN basic anonymization thing without getting into completely crazy things

And what's more, it's very practical, it allows you to have US Netflix or things like that, so it's

always good to be interested in it and to think about really segregating your activities, it's really

the thing that I recommend to everyone is really separate your your activities don't do everything

on the same machine what great well thank you very much for your advice thank you thank you for coming to

see us uh where do we can follow you on Twitter on Twitter mainly yeah

Twitter OK and well we will also put the link in the description thank you for coming thank

you thank you for staying with us until the end remember to subscribe to the channel if it It hasn't

already been done, it helps us a lot and if you liked this episode you can watch the interview with

Stéphane Zolo where we talk in particular about personal security in relation to crypto very soon