DEFY the Odds: SURPRISING Cancer Treatment BREAKTHROUGHS with Dr. Thomas Incledon.

Summary

In this episode of Ben Greenfield's show, Dr. Thomas Incledon discusses his unique approach to treating various medical conditions, including cancer, neurological, and autoimmune diseases, using a combination of exercise with oxygen therapy (EWOT). He shares his findings from running tests and protocols that led to the discovery of the stepwise progression therapy's effectiveness. Dr. Incledon emphasizes the importance of understanding individual genetic mutations and micronutrient status to tailor treatment plans. The episode also explores the integration of different therapies like red light therapy, PEMF, and Neuro20 EMS suit for enhancing physical performance and health.

Takeaways

• 🧬 Thomas Incledon's research focuses on the immune system's role in treating various medical conditions, including cancer, through exercise and oxygen therapy.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Exercise with oxygen therapy (EWOT) has been observed to increase cytotoxic T lymphocytes and natural killer cells, enhancing precision in targeting and killing cancer cells.
• 💊 Neurohacker Collective offers a product called Qualeia, which is designed to combat senescent 'zombie' cells in the body, promoting cellular health.
• 🔬 Causenta, the facility where Thomas works, is equipped with a wide array of medical technologies to measure and analyze the effects of treatments and interventions.
• 🏥 Thomas emphasizes the importance of foundational health, such as micronutrients and vitamins, before using supplements like creatine or testosterone.
• 🧪 Causenta's approach to health care involves comprehensive testing and personalized treatment plans, often incorporating exercise and oxygen therapy.
• 🚫 Thomas does not recommend hypoxic training for patients with poor oxygen delivery or those with certain comorbidities due to the risks involved.
• 💡 Thomas discusses the use of various technologies, such as Neuro20 suits for electrical muscle stimulation, to enhance physical performance and rehabilitation.
• 🌡️ The combination of red light therapy and PEMF (Pulsed Electromagnetic Field) therapy is highlighted as a method to potentially increase the effectiveness of treatments.
• 🏃‍♂️ Thomas mentions the use of blood flow restriction (BFR) training in conjunction with oxygen therapy to improve muscle growth and immune system response.
• 🛠️ The facility is described as a 'hospital in the gym,' reflecting the integration of medical-grade equipment and therapeutic approaches within a fitness setting.

Q & A

What is the primary focus of Thomas Incledon's research and work?

Thomas Incledon's primary focus is on investigating and utilizing exercise with oxygen therapy (EWOT) to address various medical conditions, particularly cancer, and to improve immune system responses.

How does Thomas Incledon's approach differ from conventional research methods?

Thomas Incledon's approach differs by conducting hands-on tests and measurements with patients, allowing him to observe direct effects and gather unique findings that are not commonly found on the internet or in classic research.

What is the significance of the 500 to 1,000 calorie threshold mentioned by Thomas Incledon?

The 500 to 1,000 calorie threshold refers to the energy expenditure during an exercise session where Thomas observed tumor shrinkage in patients. This finding suggests that reaching this level of exertion could potentially have significant health benefits.

How does Ben Greenfield describe the equipment and setup at Causenta?

Ben Greenfield describes the equipment and setup at Causenta as 'geeky' and state-of-the-art, filled with a variety of high-tech gadgets and equipment designed to support comprehensive health and fitness assessments and interventions.

What is the role of a strength coach at Causenta?

At Causenta, every patient has a strength coach who is highly educated with two degrees, including a master's in science. The strength coach is responsible for helping patients improve their physical strength and performance in a safe and effective manner.

What is the significance of combining different therapies at Causenta?

Combining different therapies at Causenta allows for a more holistic and efficient approach to health and fitness. It enables the stimulation of multiple physiological systems at high levels in a short amount of time, leading to faster and more noticeable results.

How does Thomas Incledon approach the treatment of patients with cancer?

Thomas Incledon approaches the treatment of patients with cancer by focusing on eliminating the disease so that they do not need chemotherapy or surgery. He uses a comprehensive testing approach to understand the patient's condition and tailors treatments accordingly.

What is the role of genetics in the treatment plans designed by Thomas Incledon?

Genetics play a crucial role in Thomas Incledon's treatment plans. He examines the patient's germline genetics and the genetics of their cancer to understand the driving factors behind the disease and to devise a more precise and effective treatment strategy.

How does Thomas Incledon utilize technology and equipment in his practice?

Thomas Incledon utilizes a wide range of technology and equipment, such as EMS suits, red light therapy devices, and various exercise machines, to provide advanced treatments and training programs tailored to each patient's unique needs and conditions.

What is the purpose of the Neuro20 suit used at Causenta?

The Neuro20 suit is used at Causenta to provide electrical muscle stimulation (EMS) that helps in rehabilitation, strength training, and overall muscle development. It uses recorded electrical firing patterns from top athletes to stimulate specific muscle groups effectively.

How does Thomas Incledon combine therapies like red light therapy and PEMF at Causenta?

Thomas Incledon combines therapies like red light therapy and PEMF by using the magnetic energy from the PEMF device to drive the red light deeper into the tissues. This innovative approach enhances the effectiveness of both therapies simultaneously.

What is the importance of measuring a wide range of molecules and cells in Thomas Incledon's approach?

Measuring a wide range of molecules and cells is crucial in Thomas Incledon's approach as it allows for a comprehensive understanding of the patient's health status. It helps in identifying deficiencies or imbalances that may be affecting the patient's ability to respond to treatments and achieve optimal health.

Outlines

00:00

🧪 Thomas's Investigation into Medical Conditions

Thomas discusses his experience with various medical conditions and his investigation into their responses. Hired by a company to explore the mechanisms behind these responses, he focused on the immune system, conducting numerous tests and protocols. He discovered that exercise with oxygen therapy (EWOT) could shrink tumors when patients burned between 500 and 1,000 calories. The therapy also enhanced the immune response, making it more precise in targeting cancer cells.

05:03

🧟‍♂️ Sponsor Message: Nuking Zombie Cells

Ben introduces a sponsor message about Neurohacker Collective's product designed to eliminate senescent 'zombie' cells that cause inflammation. The product, a supplement taken twice a month, promises safe and effective results. Ben provides a discount code for 15% off purchases and emphasizes the benefits of reducing zombie cells in the body.

10:09

📚 Introduction to Dr. Thomas Incledon and Causenta

Ben introduces Dr. Thomas Incledon, highlighting his reputation in medicine, health, and fitness. They are at Causenta, Thomas's facility in Scottsdale, which houses advanced technology for medical research and treatment. Thomas explains how the center focuses on personalized testing and treatment, leveraging global technologies to provide tailored healthcare solutions. He emphasizes the importance of measuring various biological markers to ensure effective treatment.

15:14

🔬 Discoveries in Exercise with Oxygen Therapy

Thomas shares his findings on the effectiveness of exercise with oxygen therapy (EWOT). He details how this therapy increases immune cell activity and precision, helping to shrink tumors and improve overall immune response. Thomas explains the testing protocols and the specific exercise equipment used to achieve these results. He also addresses the broader benefits of exercise in preventing and managing cancer.

20:23

🩺 Personalizing Health Treatments at Causenta

Thomas describes the individualized approach at Causenta, where patients undergo extensive testing to tailor treatments to their specific needs. He talks about the integration of various therapies, including exercise, oxygen therapy, and light therapy, to optimize health outcomes. Thomas emphasizes the importance of understanding each patient's unique biological makeup and the need for precise, evidence-based interventions.

25:26

⚕️ The Science of Combining Therapies

Thomas explains how combining different therapies can enhance treatment effectiveness. He discusses the use of hyperbaric oxygen therapy, red light therapy, and electromagnetic fields to improve health outcomes. Thomas highlights the importance of integrating multiple modalities to address various health challenges, particularly in patients with complex conditions.

30:30

🏋️‍♂️ Advanced Fitness and Rehabilitation Techniques

Thomas introduces advanced fitness and rehabilitation techniques used at Causenta, including the Neuro20 suit for neuromuscular stimulation. He explains how these technologies can help athletes and patients improve their physical performance and recover from injuries. Thomas also discusses the benefits of combining electrical muscle stimulation with traditional exercise methods.

35:30

💡 Innovative Approaches to Health Optimization

Thomas describes the innovative approaches to health optimization at Causenta, such as combining red light therapy with PEMF to enhance treatment effects. He explains how these combined therapies can improve circulation, reduce inflammation, and support overall health. Thomas emphasizes the importance of continuous experimentation and adaptation to find the most effective treatments.

40:39

💪 Personal Experiences with Advanced Therapies

Ben shares his personal experiences with the therapies at Causenta, including the use of the Neuro20 suit and red light therapy. He discusses the immediate effects of these treatments on his body and the potential benefits for others. Thomas provides insights into the science behind these therapies and how they can be tailored to individual needs.

45:43

🏆 Achieving Optimal Health Through Technology

Thomas and Ben discuss the potential of advanced technologies to achieve optimal health. They explore the benefits of integrating various therapies and the importance of personalized treatment plans. Thomas highlights the success stories of patients at Causenta and the positive impact of cutting-edge health technologies.

50:44

📈 The Future of Health and Fitness

Ben concludes the discussion by emphasizing the importance of innovative health and fitness approaches. He encourages viewers to explore the potential of combining advanced therapies to improve their health and performance. Ben also invites viewers to visit Thomas's website for more information and resources, underscoring the transformative power of technology in health and wellness.

Keywords

💡Exercise with Oxygen Therapy (EWOT)

Exercise with Oxygen Therapy (EWOT) is a method that combines physical exercise with supplemental oxygen intake. It is believed to enhance the immune system's response and has been observed to potentially aid in the reduction of tumor size, as mentioned in the script when Thomas discusses the effects of EWOT on cancer patients. The therapy is part of a broader approach to health and wellness that includes monitoring and adjusting various physiological markers.

💡Cytotoxic T Lymphocytes

Cytotoxic T lymphocytes are a type of white blood cell that play a critical role in the immune system by identifying and killing cells that are infected with viruses or have become cancerous. In the script, Thomas mentions a dramatic increase in cytotoxic T lymphocytes as a result of EWOT, indicating the therapy's potential to bolster the immune response against cancer.

💡Anaerobic Threshold

The anaerobic threshold is a point during exercise when the body's demand for oxygen exceeds the amount it can supply, leading to the production of lactic acid. The script refers to anaerobic threshold training, which is a method to improve an individual's physical performance by training them to operate at higher levels of intensity without entering the anaerobic state.

💡Neurohacker Collective

Neurohacker Collective is mentioned in the script as an organization that has developed a product to combat senescent zombie cells, which are cells that no longer function properly and contribute to aging and inflammation. The script discusses their product, Qualeia, which is promoted as a way to safely and effectively address this buildup.

💡Senescent Zombie Cells

Senescent zombie cells are aged or damaged cells that no longer divide or function properly and can contribute to aging and age-related diseases. The script discusses the buildup of these cells in the body and how the product from Neurohacker Collective is designed to combat them.

💡Cancer

Cancer is a group of diseases involving abnormal cell growth with the potential to invade or spread to other parts of the body. The script discusses various aspects of cancer treatment and research, particularly focusing on the effects of EWOT and the immune response in fighting cancer.

💡Micronutrients

Micronutrients are vitamins and minerals that are needed by the body in small amounts for various functions, including growth, development, and overall health. In the script, Thomas emphasizes the importance of micronutrients, stating that a deficiency can hinder the effectiveness of other supplements and treatments.

💡Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy

Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy (HBOT) involves breathing pure oxygen in a pressurized room or chamber. The script contrasts HBOT with EWOT, noting that the latter allows for movement during treatment, which can enhance immune response and oxygen delivery to tissues differently than HBOT.

💡Neuro20

Neuro20 is a technology mentioned in the script that uses electrical muscle stimulation (EMS) to activate muscle groups. It is based on the electrical firing patterns of top athletes, allowing users to stimulate specific muscle groups for rehabilitation or strength training purposes.

💡Red Light Therapy

Red Light Therapy is a form of phototherapy that uses red and near-infrared light to improve skin health, reduce inflammation, and enhance healing. The script discusses the use of red light therapy in conjunction with exercise and oxygen therapy to potentially enhance the benefits of these treatments.

💡Biochemical Analysis

Biochemical analysis refers to the examination of the chemical processes and substances occurring within living organisms. In the script, Thomas explains that he conducts extensive biochemical analysis, including genetic testing, to understand the individual's health status and tailor treatments accordingly.

💡Mutations (NRF2, KRAS)

Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence that can impact how genes function. The script specifically mentions NRF2 and KRAS mutations, which can influence how a cancer patient responds to treatment. Understanding these mutations is crucial for personalized medicine approaches, as they can affect the choice of diet and treatment strategies.

💡Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Training

Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) training is a method that involves restricting blood flow to a working muscle during exercise, which can lead to increased muscle growth and strength gains with lighter weights. The script mentions BFR as a technique that Thomas uses with his patients, and Ben also discusses using it in his own training.

💡PEMF (Pulsed Electromagnetic Field) Therapy

PEMF Therapy involves the use of pulsed electromagnetic fields to stimulate and heal cells, reduce inflammation, and promote blood circulation. In the script, Thomas describes combining PEMF with red light therapy to potentially enhance the therapeutic effects.

💡EMS (Electrical Muscle Stimulation)

EMS, or Electrical Muscle Stimulation, is a technique that uses electrical impulses to cause muscle contractions, which can be used for rehabilitation, muscle strengthening, and fitness training. The script discusses the use of EMS suits like Neuro20 to stimulate multiple physiological systems at a high level in a short amount of time.

💡Causenta

Causenta is the name of the facility run by Thomas, where he conducts his research and treatments. It represents a convergence of technology and healthcare, offering a wide range of therapies and assessments to patients. The script discusses various treatments and technologies available at Causenta.

Highlights

Thomas was hired to investigate the effects of oxygen therapy on various medical conditions, including neurological, autoimmune, and cancer.

Exercise with oxygen therapy was found to increase the precision of the immune system in targeting and killing cancer cells.

Breathing oxygen during exercise led to tumor shrinkage once patients reached a calorie burn of 500 to 1,000 calories.

Neurohacker Collective has developed a product to combat the buildup of senescent zombie cells in the body.

Causenta in Scottsdale is a facility that focuses on measuring and understanding the impact of various health and fitness technologies.

Thomas emphasizes the importance of understanding foundational molecules and nutrients for optimal health outcomes.

Exercise with oxygen therapy has been confirmed by Thomas as an effective treatment, especially for individuals with serious health issues.

Thomas discusses the differences in care quality between professional athletes and those dealing with serious illnesses like cancer.

The transcript explores the concept of stepwise progression therapy and anaerobic threshold training for health benefits.

Thomas explains the benefits of exercise for cancer patients, including increased immune response and improved blood flow to tumors.

Intermittent hypoxic training and its potential effects compared to exercise with oxygen therapy are discussed.

Hyperbaric oxygen therapy is compared with exercise with oxygen therapy, noting the limitations and benefits of each approach.

Thomas describes the process of stacking various therapies to achieve significant results in a short amount of time.

The use of Neuro20, a whole-body neuromuscular electrical stimulation suit, is explained for rehab and strength training.

Thomas discusses the importance of genetic testing in tailoring treatments for cancer patients and avoiding one-size-fits-all approaches.

The integration of blood flow restriction training with oxygen therapy to enhance muscle growth and immune system response.

Thomas shares his insights on combining different types of training and therapies for optimal health and performance outcomes.

Transcripts

Thomas: I saw a lot of different medical  conditions from neurological conditions  

to autoimmune conditions to cancer  that people were responding. And so,  

I was hired by a company to investigate  how is this working. And so, I said, "Well,  

one possible mechanism is through the immune  system." So, I really focused on running a lot  

of tests over different protocols." And, we came  up with a couple of findings that I didn't see  

anywhere on the internet. I didn't see anywhere  in a classic research that everybody talks about,  

the stepwise progression therapy from some  of the older textbooks on anaerobic threshold  

training and stuff like that. And basically, what  I saw is that if we got people breathing oxygen,  

once they got between 500 and 1,000 calories,  their tumor started to shrink. With time,  

the exercise with oxygen therapy  increases the magnitude of the response,  

so more cells going out killing but also increases  the precision. They're not just killing anything,  

they're killing cancer. Ben:  

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Enjoy nuking your zombie cells. Kiss him goodbye. So, I've known about this guy for years, an OG in,  

I don't know if you'd call it medicine or  health or fitness or perhaps all three. His  

name is Dr. Thomas Incledon. And, I've  read some of the things he's written.  

I've listened to some of his interviews. And  again, I've known about him for a while, but  

really have never had the chance to interview Tom  until now. And Tom, you're probably best equipped  

to explain to people what your background is, what  exactly it is that you do here. We're sitting here  

at Causenta in Scottsdale, C-A-U-S-E-N-T-A.  If you want the shownotes, you want to check  

this place out. I'll link to everything Tom and  I talk about at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Causenta.  

Again, C-A-U-S-E-N-T-A. But Tom, tell me a little bit about what this  

place is, what you do and how you got into this. Thomas: So, this place has become sort of this  

constantly expanding giant collection of  tech technology from around the world.  

Ben: Sounds like my basement. Thomas: Yeah. So, the difference,  

always keep in mind, is we actually could put  catheters in people's arms and we could collect  

data pre- and post-. So, I know more about a lot  of gadgets than the people that actually make the  

gadgets. So, they'll tell me stuff like, "Oh, my  machine gets more nutrients in a cell." I'm like,  

"No, it doesn't." And like, "How do you know?"  "Well, because I've actually measured over a  

thousand people doing it." Because the people  come here, basically they're curious. They want  

to know, "Is this helping me or not?" So, we  basically focus on measuring molecules that  

everybody needs to know about, but most people,  it's not attractive enough to them or they don't  

understand how to interpret it or it's just not  something in their normal wheelhouse. We're in  

a world where instant gratification. I want  to use it. I want results yesterday, right?  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And so, I mean, I  

still operate on that myself but then at a certain  point, you're like, "Hey, how do I notice it's  

helping me giving it time or money or whatever  effort you're putting into it?" You want to know,  

is it not conflicting with something else you're  doing? So basically, what we started doing is we  

started giving people the opportunity to come  in here and think of it as they could do their  

own n of 1 study. So, whether someone wants to  just lift weights and I can draw their blood and  

measure all the stuff around a workout or whether  someone wants to run. It doesn't really matter  

what you want to do. We could just basically  measure anything you want before immediately  

after and then multiple time points later. So, from that, I've been able to discover things  

like no one else in the world has been ever  to discover. So, for example, I first learned  

about exercise with oxygen therapy around 2015.  Other guys already talking about it before then,  

but I looked at every single guy was just  reposting the same thing everybody else  

was posting. I'm like, "Who did you measure?"  "Well, no one." "So, you're saying these things  

happen but you never put a catheter in a guy's  arm, drew his blood, and see what happens?"  

Ben: Right, besides maybe a pulse ox. Thomas: Yeah. Right, right. So,  

I started doing entire lymphocyte panels and  started measuring cytotoxic T lymphocytes,  

natural killer cells, and then every hormone  that could be measured and all these antioxidants  

and thousands of molecules or different cell  lines. And then, we started seeing some things,  

and like whoa, how do we reproduce that? In other  words, let's say I measure you and you're at 100,  

let's say. Well, measure me, I'm at a 10 and I  want to get to 100. Now, what do I have to do to  

get my 10 to your 100, right? And, that's when you  say, "Wait a minute, I'm low in K2 and then this  

K2 have a relationship between immune responses." And, the reality is we know every cell in our body  

needs every single molecule like oxygen, water,  vitamins, minerals, essential amino acids--  

Ben: Yeah, micronutrients, vitamins,  minerals, fatty acids, amino acids. Yeah.  

Thomas: Right. So, if you're low, there's a  penalty somewhere whether you realize it or not,  

right? And so, if I just happen to be low in  something and not know it, I'm not going to  

get the best possible results from all the  other stuff. So, I always encourage people  

make sure you know your basics because you're  not going to get the best result from creatine  

or testosterone or whatever other supplement  if you're missing this foundational stuff.  

And, it's surprising, every human I've tested  over 200,000 people, the number of people that  

actually know this basic stuff before they get  here is less than I could count on one hand.  

Ben: I have to ask you since you brought  it up and I do it two or three times a  

week. Does exercise with oxygen therapy work? Thomas: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, without a doubt.  

I guess, we'll define how you mean work though.  So first, let me just reframe the question a  

little bit. Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: So, I primarily see people  that have very serious health issues  

right now. I still work with-- Ben: And, that's important because  

I think a lot of people would look at  watching the video version of jerseys  

on the wall on the professional athletes, this  is not just a high-end performance facility,  

you're treating people who are diseased. Thomas: Yeah. Okay. So, to connect some of  

these sort of abstract concepts. I worked with  NFL, Super Bowl-winning teams and World Series,  

winning basketball. I mean, my baseball players  and all these let's say high-level athletes. And  

then, these guys had family members and they  got sick and then you see all of a sudden,  

they're in this otherworld and the quality  care sucked. It was just terrible.  

Think of it this way. You're a football player,  you go down on the field. They're MRIng you  

right on the sidelines or going in a tunnel and  they have results instantly practically. Now,  

you got cancer and you got to wait  three weeks to get a scan. You know  

what I mean? So, it's a different world-- Ben: Yeah, insurance approval [00:07:16] _____.  

Thomas: Right, exactly. And, I'm like, "This  doesn't make any sense." And then, the care  

team that's supposed to be working together to  help this person beat this terrible illness,  

who's on vacation, who's not getting back till  next week, and so it was very discombobulated.  

And, I started seeing there's all the stuff  that just wasn't done. And so, that kind of  

led to me getting this reputation for helping all  these athlete family members. A lot of guys--  

Ben: I was kind of wondering how you went from  performance to disease. That's interesting.  

Thomas: Yeah. And then, one guy's like,  "Hey, my dad's got this. Hey, my mom's  

got this. My cousin, my brother, whatever." When I was 9, my babysitter died from a brain  

tumor. And, just to kind of put things in  perspective, when I was 9, so I'm 57 now but  

let's say roughly 50 years ago, no one knew  what cancer was. Today, I say cancer, no one  

ever asked me what is that, everyone either has  had it or knows someone that's had it. It's not  

a scary new word. It's a scary word but it's not  new. Everybody's--it's in their vocabulary now.  

So, in 50 years, we went from not knowing  anything until everybody knows it. And so,  

just because the relationships, all these  people and then seeing all the results  

of the family members, it really took off.  Now, we always work with people with cancer,  

but it's kind of this you see Ray Lewis, Bill  Romanowski, the studs of the past walking out.  

People know who they are because they've been on  TV. So, that name gets out there. You see some guy  

that's never been on TV with cancer walking out,  no one says, "Oh, look who that is." They don't  

know who he is, right? And so, some of that's  just media bias and just entertainment bias.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And so, getting back to the EWOT, does  

it work? So, what I've seen is that if I saw a lot  of different medical conditions from neurological  

conditions to autoimmune conditions to cancer  that people were responding. And so, I was hired  

by a company to investigate how is this working.  And so, I said, "Well, one possible mechanism is  

through the immune system." So, I really focused  on running a lot of tests over different protocols  

and we came up with a couple of findings that I  didn't see anywhere on the internet. I didn't see  

anywhere in the classic research that everybody  talks about. The stepwise progression therapy from  

some of the older textbooks on anaerobic  threshold training and stuff like that.  

And basically, what I saw is that  if we got people breathing oxygen,  

once they got between 500 and 1,000 calories,  the tumor started to shrink. That's without any  

treatments like any chemotherapy-- Ben: When you say 500 to--  

Thomas: Thousand calories. Ben: 500 to 1,000 calories,  

meaning that's what they were  metabolizing during an exercise session?  

Thomas: So, on there, say to the ellipticals  we have here are Cybex Arc Trainers. I'm not  

promoting the brand or anything, but just so that  you know what we're de doing. So, we program it  

so the resistance or the load is 400 pounds and  that's the standardized for everyone. And then,  

we have the incline at 10 degrees incline and  then we have it start somewhere around 30% but  

let's just say 30. Then, they just pedal  till they hit 500 calories on the screen.  

Ben: Okay. Thomas: And then, when they get more fit,  

to a thousand. And then, somewhere in that zone  of 500 to 1,000 total calories for that session,  

they just see cancer disappear. Ben: Is that because cancer thrives  

in an anaerobic environment and you're  creating an aerobic environment?  

Thomas: Well, you're doing a lot of things. So  first, to kind of focus on the immune system  

aspects first, we see an increase in cytotoxic T  lymphocytes and natural killer cells in a range of  

27 million to 27 billion for one person. Ben: Wow.  

Thomas: So, in 15 minutes, here's their immune  system and it's say normal. Nothing wrong with  

it. But now, after 15 minutes, they're way  up here. So, you have dramatic increase in  

the immune cells leaving the spleen going  out to circulation, right? So basically,  

with time, the exercise with oxygen therapy  increases the magnitude of the response so  

more cells going out killing but also increases  the precision. They're not just killing anything,  

they're killing cancer. They're real precise now.  So, there's that advantage that you wouldn't get  

from laying in the bed doing nothing. Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: Plus now, you also have increased  circulation. You're getting more oxygen into  

the tumor. So, a lung tumor or something. You're  basically getting reversal of the dysfunction of  

blood flow. So normally, it's kind of like when  someone has cancer, you get blood going where  

you don't want it so it can grow and not enough  blood going where you do want it to fight it. And,  

exercise kind of reverses that. And, we're  starting to see now evidence from other groups  

that, "Hey, exercise volume may be important."  I'm like, "This has been known for 100 years."  

Just look around people that exercise have  a lower incidence of cancer in general.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: So, it's not like  

exercise keeps you from ever getting it  because there's too many chemicals in the  

environment to damage DNA for that right now, but  it definitely prevents it from kicking in sooner.  

Ben: Somebody couldn't exercise due to joint  limitation or maybe they're just sick. Could  

you get somewhat similar effect from intermittent  hypoxic training like using a Cell Gym or one of  

these units where you sit next to it and  breathe oxygen that's alternating back and  

forth between hypoxia and hyperoxia? Thomas: So, I would say in general not  

the same response. So, think of it this  way. Let's say I have a guy hit by a car,  

and this guy, hypothetical guy, he can't move  for, let's say, spinal cord injury and he also  

has cancer. So, the way I would approach that  is look at some of the classical research that  

was done and you'd say, "What can he move?"  Let's say, "Can you move one hand or if you  

can move a finger." Maybe whether it's a rubber  band or a ball, but something that could provide  

loading or tension for what can be moved while  he breathes in oxygen. And, I would basically,  

whether it's a single finger or a hand or toe or  foot, whatever it is, I would figure out a way to  

create a movement pattern that is resistance  and effort. And then, train the hell out of  

him to get that stimulation. Ben: What about hyperbaric?  

Thomas: So, the limitation with hyperbaric is you  can't move in hyperbaric. That's usually laying  

down. And then, what happens is you don't get-- Ben: Can do more setups.  

Thomas: So, here's what happens is once you get  to a certain pressure and the oxygen start to  

dissolve in the plasma, movement can induce  oxygen toxicosis. And so, what happens is if  

you compare immune responses, hyperbaric, it's not  even on the same galaxy. It's way down here versus  

EWOT. So, I'm talking to guys that are far more  knowledgeable about hyperbaric than I am. I mean,  

they live a 100 days or more way below underwater.  So, it's like the true hyperbaric stuff.  

And, talking to those guys and learning from  them some of the limitations, it's hard to move  

a lot when there's that much pressure with oxygen  because you run into other issues. But, in theory,  

my speculation would be if I could take people  and move them and then find the right pressure,  

maybe I don't need four atmospheres or three  atmospheres, maybe I get one and a half. But,  

this should be in theory. Some crossover where  the right concentration with the right movement  

pattern with the right pressure, we could  maybe get oxygen in the tissue faster.  

Now, having said that, hyperbaric oxygen  therapy systems, there's a price point.  

Many people could afford them. And, I can  get oxygen in a tissue with a gas mixture  

or with just exercise really fast. So now, if  you look back to what comparative physiology,  

what am I getting for what I'm spending, you wind  up coming back to exercise with oxygen therapy.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And, keep in mind, I don't  

sell any systems. I'm not a salesman here. Ben: Yeah. No, I got you. And, we're going  

to get a chance to show people some of  this stuff shortly. Tom's going to take  

me a little tour of Causenta and show  you guys some of the cool stuff here.  

But, you've got a team here. Because when I  walked in, first person that greet me at the  

front desk was a naturopathic physician. There's  you. Obviously, you've got a whole medical staff.  

Thomas: Yeah, we got a lot more people. It's not a  one-man show. Every patient has a strength coach.  

Strength coach has two degrees, including a master  in science degree. So, it's not your typical--  

Ben: Did you say every  patient is a strength coach?  

Thomas: Yeah. You can't get stronger if you  don't have a guy that knows how to get strong,  

right? Just think about that. So, you  go to MD Anderson, go to Mayo Clinic,  

Sloan Kettering, go to any cancer treatment  center and they'll say stupid stuff like,  

"Oh, we're going to get you stronger." You go,  "Well, show me your strength coach." They'll look  

at you like you're a crazy person. Ben: Yeah. You mean every employee  

is a strength coach, not every patient? Thomas: No, no, no. Every patient that we  

have here has a strength coach-- Ben: Strength coach,  

okay. I got you. I got you. Yeah. Thomas: Yeah. So, maybe I misspoke,  

but basically, the point is you can't help people  if you don't have someone that knows what they're  

doing in that area, right? Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: And so, one of the things-- Ben: Exercise is medicine, right?  

Thomas: Yeah, it absolutely is. Well, especially  you have people coming in in a wheelchair and  

then they're walking in three hours and  then they're throwing out the wheelchair.  

Ben: Wow. Thomas: You would think when they  

go back to the center that they came from that  other professionals go, "It's a miracle, we should  

do this." And, you see it's not done because sure  it doesn't cover it and they can't monetize it.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And,  

that's when you see right away there's a lot  of stuff in healthcare that's upside down.  

Ben: Yeah, can't monetize  movement. It's your tagline.  

Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Ben: Well, you want take me on a tour  

and show folks what this is all about. Thomas: Yeah. Let's do it.  

Ben: Alright. And again, if you're  watching and you want to access the  

research, the resources, et cetera, go to  BenGreenfieldLife.com/Causenta. There'll be  

plenty more about Tom and what he does there. Alright. We are officially here. This is where  

the magic happens. This is Tom's facility at  Causenta. As you can see, chockfull of all  

of the geekiest equipment and Tom's going  to show you some of the cool stuff here.  

Thomas: Okay. Alright, thanks, man. Alright. So,  this kind of section over here, this is what we  

call our exercise with oxygen therapy equipment.  And so, basically took a bunch of the bags and it  

hooked up in series. So, that way, if I have  a beast that's breathing in a lot of oxygen,  

they're going to draw from six bags-- Ben: They're going to empty all the bags. Yeah,  

that's why I got to go out to my gym and  turn on the bag early before I go out. I  

don't have big bags like you but yeah. Thomas: So basically, we have is we have  

a bunch of concentrators that take  room air, concentrate the oxygen,  

fill up the bags. These bags are roughly 900 to  1,000 liters. Collectively, we're putting out  

anywhere from 30 to 90 liters of oxygen a minute.  So, we fill up a bag. And essentially, we have a  

lot of different cardio pieces of equipment. But,  when I was testing people, I tested people in a  

stationary bike. I tested people on a recumbent  bike. I test people on a treadmill and I found the  

best immune responses from an elliptical device.  It kind of makes sense. More muscle group.  

Ben: Arm leg, yeah. Thomas: And then,  

when I tested different ellipticals, what I found  is that a lot of people would join issues and more  

people could do the Cybex Arc Trainer. And, keep  in mind, my data I'm talking about, this is stuff  

I collected five years ago. So, could there be  better exercise equipment now? Probably. But,  

just at that point, this is the best we could  find. And, what I liked is I get some patients  

that can't stand so they're going to be at  zero. They have some guys that are well-borns  

on the planet. They're at 400 pounds, right?  So, they're going to be really much higher.  

Ben: Yeah, NHL football players. Thomas: Right. So, I need, in one footprint,  

a space. I need something that could accommodate  a wide range of resistance. Now, basically,  

we use 400 pounds of resistance for everyone  and we just lower the percentages that we're  

using for each person. But, we max them out, see  where their fitness is. Most people starting in  

25 to 30% of the 400-pound range. And then,  basically, they're breathing in oxygen while  

they exercise. And then, depending on where  they are, their first workout, it might be 75  

calories, 150 calories, 500 calories, whatever. And then, while they're doing that, we then will  

introduce--there's a company called Collagentex  and they make the coldest RX-3, the coldest RX-1.  

Basically, it's very, very powerful light. Ben: Oh, wow. This is like red light  

therapy that you're using in conjunction-- Thomas: Yeah, while they're exercising. Yeah. Now,  

keep in mind, this is 10 wavelengths.  So, it's not just red light. Basically,  

it's polychromatic light. So, think of it  super high energy, much more than you could  

find normally. And, it goes to a quartz crystal  that functions like a prism. So, the prism makes  

a rainbow and you can see different wavelengths  or colors. So, this will break it down to 10.  

So, kind of think of it this way. Company A  says my wavelength is better. Company B says,  

no, my wavelength is better. We're doing 10. So,  it won't matter. And, what you could see is you  

could literally see people sweating like crazy. Ben: So, if someone wanted to replicate this at  

home if they had a red light panel, it's not  going do as much of this as far as wavelengths  

are concerned but they could set up a red light  panel next to a bicycle elliptical trainer. And,  

if they have exercise with oxygen therapy,  they could do that at the same time.  

Thomas: Yeah. The main concern you have is  distance, right? So, the energy is inversely  

proportional, the distance or radius square.  So, if it's too far back, then you're running  

a question like, is it meaningful? Ben: You need pretty powerful  

device or have it as close as possible. Thomas: Right. Yeah. So, if you're doing this at  

home, I would say skimpy shorts, right? Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: No shirt, working out. Ben: Actually, I should ask you  

this. A lot of companies now Lumaflex or Kineon,  they're making wraparound red light devices that  

you could theoretically wear on your legs or  on your arms or strap around your back and get  

a baby effect of what you're doing here. Thomas: Yeah. So, I think that's the right  

direction. I mean, ultimately, we think of it  as, okay. So, we'll jump ahead a little bit,  

but kind of along the lines you're just saying.  So, this is a company called Neuro20. These are  

basically electrodes and basically think  of it like whole body neuromuscular--  

Ben: So, it's like a pull-on EMS suit? Thomas: Exactly.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: So now, the difference  

is that when you see EMS in the market,  what you want to know is, okay, what are  

the patterns that they're using? What's the  basis for those patterns? What these guys did,  

very clever, they recorded the electrical  firing patterns from top athletes. So, the best  

sprinters, the best jumpers, the best lifters.  And now, they got that in here. So basically--  

Ben: What's it called again? Thomas: Neuro20.  

Ben: Neuro20. Wow. Thomas: And so, basically,  

you put on the suit. Now, I could stimulate  any combination of major muscle groups I want.  

Ben: Is this wireless or wired? Thomas: No, wireless. You wear a suit  

and I got like a controller pad. Ben: Okay.  

Thomas: And so, you wear this. I could have you  on that. And, let's just say we want to just  

rehab the right leg. I could turn everything  off and just stimulate the right leg. Or,  

if you would say, you know what, I want to do  more lower body. So, I work with a lot of people  

with spinal cord injury or hip issues and I have  trouble standing up. So, I could literally just  

do a lower body only or if I have a beast like  you, I'm going to stimulate every muscle group  

in your body. And, you can make it just walking-- Ben: Yeah. I've worn that. Have you heard of the  

Katalyst suit before? Thomas: Yeah.  

Ben: I've worn that. It's hard. Thomas: Yeah, yeah.  

Ben: Yeah. You're using all these  little muscles that you wouldn't  

normally recruit. Pretty sore afterward. Thomas: So, side by side, mostly guys would  

say they found this was way more intense but  also here's a cool part. They have the company  

has a patents on all the firing frequency  pattern. So, we could use it for rehab and  

it's like already approved like they could  show that they can demonstrate like guys,  

come back from rehab faster. They could use  it for just strength training. So, think of  

it now. I have frail patients that were told  don't lift weights, you're going to get hurt.  

Now, they come in here. What am I doing? Remember,  doing cardio electrically stimulating them. These  

are men with terminal conditions and now  have no evidence of disease and they're  

leaving with 100-pound dumbbell rows. That's  how it should be. That's the model of health.  

Ben: Yeah. But, you're getting them to that  point by using electrical muscle stimulation?  

Thomas: Yeah. So basically, we're helping the  brain connect to the body using electricity.  

But now, imagine you're wearing this while  you're doing that stuff. So, think of it  

in 15 minutes, we could stimulate multiple  physiological systems at a very high level.  

So, you see some clients, they're very successful,  they're always traveling and they don't have a lot  

of time. Well, it's nice to have all the gadgets  but now, you still have to use them, right? And,  

where do you find that time? And so, what I  figured out is how to stack all these therapies  

so I could do stuff in 15 to 30 minutes that  very few guys have ever seen done before. Then,  

I could show people within days getting  physically stronger or physically faster.  

Ben: Wow. Thomas: And then, we do a lot of fun stuff. So,  

talk about lead athletes, talk about some of  my patients, I've literally had NHL hockey  

player here training with a woman with pancreatic  cancer, terminal pancreatic cancer and they're  

working out together. And, everybody's like,  "What the hell?" And, guess what, people forget  

is success sets the stage for success. And now,  what happens is the athlete has an injured ankle,  

he's rehabbing, the woman's trying to beat  pancreatic cancer. They're both training at  

appropriate fitness levels, getting stronger.  And, next thing you know, the hockey player  

staying on the sled telling the older woman with  pancreatic cancer, "Come on, Old Woman, push."  

Ben: I love that. Thomas: So now, she gets stronger and she's  

laughing having fun and she gets to tell all her  friends, "I just pushed this NHL hockey player."  

Ben: Yeah, yeah. Thomas: So, we're leveraging out of community.  

Ben: Are you coming in here at the same time  and also drawing bloods getting biomarkers,  

some of those things you were talking  about when you're in your office?  

Thomas: Yeah. So, we can. So, depends on where  they are in their phase. So, right at the  

beginning, we're measuring a lot of stuff because  I basically think of it. Biochemically speaking,  

I have no idea what's going on inside of them, so  I'm measuring all the stuff objectively. And then,  

as we start seeing, okay, they're improving,  they're responding, there may not be as much of  

a need. So typically, you're more concerned when  someone's not responding or you have unknowns,  

then there's going to be a lot more effort, if  you will, to measuring stuff. But, once people  

are doing fantastic, then typically they're like,  "Hey, let's just ride this wave as far as we can  

until we need to do something else." Ben: Yeah.  

A lot of clinics will use, specifically for  patients who are on chemotherapy, something  

that would increase the cytotoxicity of chemo like  ozone for increased oxygenation or hypothermia.  

Have you ever had somebody come in who's on  chemo and combine an oxygen treatment with that?  

Thomas: Yeah, we would. So, what I would say.  So first, we do a very specific tests to look  

at the genetics of the cancer. We compare that  to their germline genetics. So, genes they were  

born with. And, they look at the protein pathways  that are driving the cancer to spread. And then,  

we're simultaneously looking at the micronutrient  status and the environmental chemicals and the  

pathogens. And so, then the tools we would use to  enhance the effectiveness of chemo, we depend upon  

a number of those variables. But, I would say in  principle, if someone comes to the door and they  

never did chemo, whether they're stage 0 or stage  4, my goal is to get rid of the cancer so they  

never need chemo or surgery. Ben: Okay.  

Thomas: So then, that way, because nobody says,  "Hey, let me go on to something I don't need."  

So, what I'd usually try to do is get them  to know evidence of disease in two or three  

weeks if they've never been treated. Now, if  they've already been treated by other centers,  

then sometimes it's going to take close to eight  weeks because I haven't met any patients yet that  

have ever been exposed this level of testing or  precision. Most of the time when I see what's  

been done, there may have been something missed  and then you're not leveraging things the best.  

So, for example, some people have a NRF2  mutation, and if it's not taken into account,  

you may push cancer one way or another, or  a lot of times people come in and go, "Well,  

I'm going to go ketogenic because carbohydrates  feed cancer." And, you might say in theory,  

there's a lot of evidence to support that but  now when we test the cancer in their body,  

we find that they have a KRAS mutation,  and protein and fat drives that cancer.  

Ben: Interesting. Thomas: So now, if I said,  

"Hey, look, man, I want you put this oil in  your car," and you go, "Dude, I have a e-car."  

Ben: Which mutation is that? Thomas: KRAS.  

Ben: KRAS mutation. So, that would indicate that  something like a ketogenic approach would not be.  

Thomas: May not be the best approach. Yeah.  Keep in mind, there a lot of genes, right?  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And so, you can't just cherry-pick one and  

say what if. You kind of look at in the context.  It's no different than in your car. You check the  

air pressure and all the tires before you decide  what you're fixing or filling up with air. So,  

think of it that way. I'm going to measure all  the genes and then decide what am I doing. I'm  

not just going to measure two or three. So, just  on that science alone, it's women with breast  

cancer. ER positive, PR positive, HER2. Well,  why're you measuring three when it's 22,000?  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: That doesn't  

sound very thorough. And so, what we try to do  is be a little bit more thorough and precise.  

Ben: Yeah. You must have to use software  though to dig through 22,000 genes.  

Thomas: So, it's collaborations every one of the  groups. So, think of it is I'm kind of like the  

nerd that knows a lot of these things, but I'm  not data mining every single gene, right? So,  

each lab has their own AI platform. And then,  where the gap is connecting the platforms, right?  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: So, one guy does germline genetics,  

other guy does oncogenetics, but there ain't one  guy doing both. So, sometimes I take this data,  

take that data, talk to a few more PhDs or a few  more MDs, reconcile what makes the most sense,  

and then we're taking some action. Ben: Okay. Speaking of air, I've seen  

some people use this type of training  in conjunction with hypoxic training,  

which supposedly flushes the cells with oxygen  when you induce a state of hypoxia and then hit  

hyperoxia. Are you doing that also like flipping  back and forth between hypoxia and hyperoxia?  

Thomas: No. Okay. So, keep in mind I'm  dealing with people that already have poor  

oxygen delivery. And, you also have to keep in  mind that so more than 70% of the clients have  

comorbidity. So, there may be a high risk  for stroke, high risk for heart disease,  

some other pre-existing condition-- Ben: So, you don't want that vasoconstrictive  

hypoxic effect in someone like that? Thomas: Not initially.  

Ben: Okay. Thomas: So, the initial goal  

was let's get him to a thousand, right? If I get  him to a thousand calories, and the cancer's gone,  

now I'm dealing with a different person than they  started. So, if I had let's say a non-athlete,  

I'm sorry rather an athlete with no evidence  of cancer, we're assessing them and then  

we're looking at what's the best way to bring  them up. And so, they may be hypoxic training  

combined with hyperoxic training. Might just be  simple breath-holding. Hold as long as you can.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And then, start breathing while  

I got this oxygen flooding in. Right now, we're  looking at some interesting things. So, we have a  

blood flow restriction training, weight training.  And so, think of it. So essentially, here's the  

catch that you won't hear a lot of guys tell  you. What makes muscle grow faster? Low oxygen.  

What makes the immune system respond better? High  oxygen. So now, basically, what you want everybody  

to do? You want everybody to do both. Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: But now, given that, how do I do it  safely for each person? And, keep in mind,  

your background, you have a lot more fitness  stuff, whereas more like strongman stuff,  

whereas just more on RMs. So, there might be stuff  you could get away with given your history, but I  

try that, I'm breaking down, right? So, I got to  figure out where people are and then kind of get  

them where they are to where it could be safer for  them and then we can go crazy and do whatever.  

Ben: Would you ever use blood flow  restriction combined with this stuff?  

Thomas: Oh, yeah, all the time. Yeah. Ben: Yeah. I mean, that's similar to  

like--have you seen the Vasper machine  before? It's cold blood flow restriction,  

grounding, and then a lot of people will  use oxygen with something like that.  

Thomas: Yeah. So, sort of the way that  we would sort of integrate stuff here,  

we would definitely. So, the poor man's approach,  we just buy VELCRO cinch straps from Amazon. Just  

buy them 6 bucks, 12 bucks, put them around top of  the thighs, top of the arms, just pull that puppy  

as hard as you can take it, and then cinch it.  You can't control tension, but you could feel the  

blood building up in your legs. It's working. Ben: Yeah. You just don't get great Venus return  

compared to those fancy KAATSU bands. Thomas: No, definitely don't. But,  

here's the thing is they're so  inexpensive. You break, no one cries.  

Ben: That was my workout this  morning. Cheap BFR bands from  

Amazon. I go for a walk and I do push-ups. Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Well, they're great tools  

and they're easy to travel with. You don't have  to worry about, "Oh, I forgot something. I don't  

have battery or power adapter or something."  And then, if I have a pro athlete and I need  

something a little bit more--remember,  if I got guys that could barely stand,  

I don't need a lot to get some mileage. But, if  I have a guy that's like John Welbourn or some  

other beast, then I need something that's maybe  a little bit more high-tech that could be more  

precise for those guys. Ben: Yeah, yeah.  

Anything else interesting that you're  doing in here? I mean, obviously,  

this is the main full meal deal. You got the  weights over here. I see a PEMF back here.  

Thomas: Yeah. So, different things. Well,  basically what we did is we put the,  

think of the hospital is in the gym. Think of it  like that. And so, now, whether I need loading  

with a dumbbell or loading with a cable will play  with different ways of transmitting load or force  

through the body. Because remember, I'm dealing  with a lot of people with different issues.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: So, we'll do a  

lot of things like, okay, so one strategy might be  lifting with a carbon polymer bar like the tsunami  

bars and things like that. Ben: I don't know what  

that is. Carbon polymer bar? Thomas: I'll show you. Over here. So basically,  

think bamboo training. So, let's see. Where did  I put it? So, lot of Kabuki gadgets. I like those  

guys and their stuff. It looks like-- Ben: Yeah, Kabuki Strength,  

they make good stuff. Yup. Thomas: Okay. So, the bar is  

made from a carbon polymer. So, under load.  So, right now, it doesn't bend much, right?  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: But, under load,  

it flexes and bows more, right? Ben: Interesting.  

Thomas: So now, what happens is think about  it. So, say if you're benching, right?  

Ben: Right. Thomas: And you come down,  

so you would do maybe this would be better for  pressing movements. So, you come down. And, when  

the load hits you with a standard bar, it's like a  chromosteel alloy type of property, the loading is  

borne by the joints at end range either extreme.  And now, it's something like this. You come down,  

the bar bends away from you so you don't feel  that hard impact in your joint. So, guys with  

arthritis, they love this stuff because they could  train hard and your joints don't ache afterwards.  

So, whether you're fully extending or fully coming  at the end range of motion of a bench press,  

the bar bends away with you. So, absorbs a  lot of energy. So, as you then come back,  

the return is working with you. Ben: Yeah. What's this one called?  

Thomas: Tsunami. Ben: Tsunami. Huh.  

Thomas: Yeah. So, this one, I think it tells  you don't lift more than 170 pounds per side.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: So now--  

Ben: Because it might damage the bar. Thomas: Yeah. I'll just throw it back in  

here. Then, we got a lot of different--  So, whether it's Spain, Czech Republic,  

Russia, Japan, we have gadgets from all over  the world that we could put on people. So,  

as an example, you heard of EMSCULPT, right? Ben: Yeah, EMSCULPT like the electrical muscle  

stimulation for incontinence  or full body treatments.  

Thomas: Yeah. No, no. EMSELLA. Ben: EMSELLA. That's the one you said.  

Thomas: So, we got EMSCULPT. Same  company. BTL makes one. Basically,  

the EMSCULPT got attention for like you put  on your abs, put on your glutes, right?  

Ben: Yeah, I've tried it. Thomas: So, when we got that,  

I saw immediately I could help athletes jump  higher. And so, we had guys using to increase  

their bench press and jump higher, and then  company comes in goes, "It's not supposed to  

be used that way." I'm like, "Who said?" Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: I own it now. I can do whatever the  hell I want because it's in my building, right?  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And, you just basically,  

if you're curious, you can play around with a lot  of these gadgets and develop new applications for  

them. Most guys aren't thinking when they're  selling it because they don't have time,  

right? They got to get the next sale  done and stuff like that. And so, just--  

Ben: And, you were telling me to  do something interesting with red  

light combined with PEMF. Is that right? Thomas: Yeah. So, let me see. Alright. So  

basically, so this is a device. It's  called Hercules laser and this part's  

called a multi-lumen. So basically, each pad  is 80 watts of power. So, I could run 880 to  

160 watts power around the joint. So, think of  it as the light comes out, goes so far. Then,  

I take the pulse. And, they have a lot of  different attachments. But, let's say the  

red light is going on my hand. So, lights coming  down into it. I can turn a pulse, put it over it  

and I use the magnetic energy to drive it. Ben: Using the magnetic energy from the  

PEMF to drive the red light with the  PEMF stacked on top of the red light.  

Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ben: Interesting.  

Thomas: Yeah. So, I'll have guys try one or  try the other and I'm like, I don't know,  

maybe it held, maybe it didn't. I combine the  two to like, "Holy shit, that stuff works."  

Ben: That's interesting because I actually  have one of these soft flexible red light  

beds that have been laying on top of my  PEMF mat that's just like this and you feel  

incredible when you get up from it. Yeah. Thomas: Yeah. So, what I've done here,  

so we have a light bed there. And then, what  I can do is take one of the attachments. The  

lights coming this way and the magnetic energy is  coming that way, so it's not quite the same. You  

really want them in the same direction coming  through. Problem is I love the pulse but it's  

a very powerful tool and it could blow other  gadgets easily. Sometimes if it's too close,  

the energy here will blow circuit board. Ben: Yeah, I've done that before.  

Thomas: Yeah, yeah. That's an expensive learning. Ben: I can't run my sauna and my hyperbaric and my  

PEMF at the same time without somebody not  being able to cook a meal upstairs. Yeah.  

Thomas: Yeah. So, this guy here, whatever  the hell--Jean is the owner of that company.  

Whatever he did, I could blow these all through  it and doesn't damage it. So, Jean's an older  

guy. He's pretty rough. He's like, "That's  because you're buying cheap shit." I was like,  

"Jean, it's not cheap shit. This is expensive  stuff. It works really well, but everybody else  

is not thinking about." No one builds something  worried about another device interfering with it,  

right? It's just not part of the process.  How we designed it, it's like impervious.  

Ben: Yeah. Wow. Thomas: So basically,  

all I'm doing right now is getting you a  little warmed up, get a little sweat going.  

The sweat's going to act as a conduction for the  electrodes that are inside the [00:37:56] _____.  

Ben: Got you. Thomas: And, once you a little sweaty--  

Ben: It's like a toaster in a bathtub. Thomas: That's right. That's going to do. You're  

going to have some fun today. I think old cowboy  movies would have shooting at the guy's feet and  

saying "Dance." That's what I'm kind of thinking. Ben: Oh, jeez. It's alright. All I got to do is go  

sit on the plane after this, Tom. Thomas: That's right. Well,  

you got to love me or hate me after  this, right? There's no way between.  

Ben: I usually hate people after EMS, I'll admit. Thomas: Alright, I want to do next. I'm going to  

turn on some light just so you get a  visual of how the light would work.  

Ben: Okay. Thomas: So, give me one moment.  

Ben: Now light, that would penetrate clothing? Thomas: Yeah. You could have a fur coat in jeans  

and it'll go through it. Ben: Wow. Is that based  

on the power of the red light? Thomas: The power in a different wavelength.  

Ben: Got you. Thomas: So, maybe you got 10  

and some go pretty deep. And, what I've also done.  I've tested this. We have a chair version. And,  

I've tested the chair version and I can verify  it raises hormone levels in men. So, there's a  

lot of ways we could leverage this stuff. So, what I'm going to do now, I was going  

to go lower back area and you'll feel it's  getting hotter around that area pretty soon.  

Ben: I know it wasn't getting harder. I was  

choosing the incline instead of the resistance. Thomas: Yeah. So, like another two minutes then  

you should be good. Ben: Yup.  

Yeah, I can feel the heat from  that light. That's powerful.  

Thomas: Yeah. And, it's not even a  minute, right? It's like 30 seconds.  

Ben: Yeah, you can feel  almost instantly, honestly.  

Thomas: And, I can even get it closer. Ben: Feels like sunlight.  

Thomas: Yeah. Like, music guys like,  "Dude, it's staring into the sun." Well,  

then don't stare at it. Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: While you're doing that, I was going to  try to get this going. Maybe slow down just a  

smidgen because I got to plug this in. Ben: Okay.  

Thomas: Cool. Ben: You're able to control this suit.  

Thomas: Yeah. So basically, that's providing power  to the suit and it's a receiver. So then, I have  

app on an iPad and I connect to that guy. So, I'm  going to start basically, let's see here. Alright.  

Basically, we'll just say strength. Ben: Okay.  

Thomas: You got hundreds of options. We're  going to just pick something simple. I just  

say 10 minutes just because you got to travel. Ben: Yup. Gives me time to get to the airport.  

Thomas: Yup. Ben: Without throwing a blood clot in the plane.  

Thomas: Alright. So, I'm going to start.  So, first thing I'm going to do is going  

to turn on all the muscles. I'm going to go  up slow. If it feels like pins and needles,  

then you're basically not sweaty enough. Ben: Not enough sweat.  

Thomas: Yeah. Ben: Yeah.  

I can tell I don't have too much sweat yet. Thomas: Okay. Let me know if you  

start feeling any tingling. Ben: I can feel a little bit.  

Thomas: So, is it a pin needle? Does  it feel a little bit more like?  

Ben: It's so light. I can't even feel that much. Thomas: Okay.  

Ben: Yeah, it's a little pin needly. Slightly. Thomas: Alright. I'm going to wait another  

minute or two to get a little sweatier.  And then, I'll just keep increasing it.  

Ben: Okay. Thomas: So, I'm at three right now,  

so it's pretty low. Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: But, the idea is so once there's sweat,  then the electrode makes more contact surface--  

Ben: Yeah, [00:41:05] _____  spray down a little water.  

Thomas: You could. Ben: Yeah. That's what  

I've known with the Katalyst suit before. Thomas: Yeah. So, what I'll do is a couple  

of options. One, I just jump in the  shower wet the whole suit, right? And,  

that saves me time. Or, if I don't want to get  that wet for whatever reason, I just 5 minutes,  

maybe 10, then it's sweaty enough. Ben: You probably sweat faster than I do.  

Thomas: Alright. Try it a little bit  more. Let me know how's it feeling.  

Ben: Feel a little more. Still not  ton of sweat but I can feel some of  

the muscles contracting a little bit. Thomas: Alright, going to start now  

increasing a little bit. Let me know  if it gets too strong in any muscle.  

Ben: I will. Thomas: Now, some of  

the abs in the back, if it's not pushed up. Ben: Yeah, it's not super snug so I probably  

won't feel that much. Thomas: Yeah, great.  

Ben: [00:41:56] _____ at least give  folks a little demo what it looks like.  

Thomas: Yeah. So, what we would do is so  sometimes some of the athletes have a big  

chest-waist differential. We put a VELCRO  band around the waist so it touches--  

Ben: Got you. Yeah, that makes sense. Thomas: Yup.  

Ben: Yeah, I got a very  wide-shouldered waist ratio.  

Thomas: Yeah. So then, what we'll do is I'm  just going to turn it up a little bit. Let me  

know when your quads are feeling it. Ben: It's pretty cool how you can  

adjust arms and legs separately. Thomas: Yeah. So, I can go left,  

right and left or independent muscle-- Ben: Yeah. I like that.  

Thomas: Well, what's kind of interesting, so a lot  of people have had a head injury or brain injury  

or something or fall even. Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: They'll say my right side is  great, my left side not feeling it. So,  

I can bias it and put more stimulation  on the side not getting it. And then,  

you'll see workout after workout that all of a  sudden it starts catching up. So, I'm going to now  

make it a little bit stronger than the legs. Ben: Yeah. Now, I'm starting to feel the  

legs. Yup. Thomas: So,  

we're about four and a half minutes in. So, I didn't have you breathe in the oxygen  

because we're talking, right? And obviously, it  would interfere, but if you were training for  

real, I'd have you breathing in oxygen. Ben: Right, the oxygen mask on. Yeah.  

Thomas: Yeah. And then, given your  background, there's a lot of latitude  

so we could explore sprint intervals.  We could explore different things.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: And then, the joke, so we teach a  

lot of the patients here. How do you make anything  feel easier or lighter? Just do something harder.  

Ben: It's all relative. Thomas: Yeah, it is. So, do a hard spray. Now,  

try 30% and it feels like nothing's there. Ben: Yup.  

Thomas: Alright. So, coming  down you got four minutes  

to go. You want to write it out? Ben: And, the strength kind of goes  

back and forth, huh? Thomas: So, terms of  

like, what do you mean back and forth? Ben: It'll like contract and then relax.  

Thomas: Right, exactly. So, what I  did for you, I just put a 60-second  

contraction and a one-second relaxation. Ben: Thank you. I was going to say. The relaxation  

period seem to go by pretty quickly. Thomas: That's right. Like,  

you sure it's even working? Ben: [00:44:01] ____ like  

a torture chamber master. Thomas: Well, I [00:44:06] _____ I  

saw at Tom's place, I didn't get any results. Ben: No. You turn up the legs a little bit.  

Thomas: Okay, okay. I want you to go back home  and say I'm not sure if that guy's all there but I  

definitely got results. Ben: Fun, remembrance of Tom Incledon.  

Thomas: That's right. I'm never going back, but  at least my quads are bigger. You tell me when.  

Ben: It's over right there. Thomas: Okay. It's pretty good. A  

little bit more we're at Neanderthal  level. You're almost there, man.  

Ben: Oh, wow. There's that one-second  relaxation kick-in. It's gone.  

Thomas: Yeah. I blinked relaxation is over. Ben: Yeah.  

Thomas: So, when I do this, I  put basically no relaxation,  

right? So, it's contract just to reset-- Ben: Yeah, just consistent the whole time.  

Thomas: Yeah. Well, because-- Ben: It does give you a lot of results  

in a short period of time. Thomas: Yes, exactly.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: Yeah. So,  

this part of me if I was competing, I would  do what it takes in terms of training. But,  

where I am right now, I have a lot of  responsibility for other people's lives. So,  

I'm kind of like, "Okay, in 15 minutes  or less, how could I get some results?"  

I get better results from frequency than I do from  volume right now. Particularly because I have a  

lot of neural issues and arthritis issues. So,  shorter times, I don't beat myself up too much.  

So, you got about three and a half minutes to go. Ben: Okay. Maybe every 30 seconds it's turned up a  

slight notch. Let's see if I can power it up. Thomas: Okay.  

Ben: Can't do anything for three minutes. Thomas: Sure. So, you got nine seconds and  

I'll crank it up. Ben: Okay.  

Thomas: Alright. Ready? Here we go. How's that? Ben: A little more.  

Thomas: Okay. I just went up two units. Ben: Yup. Just maybe keep doing  

that every 30 seconds. Thomas: Sure. I'll just keep  

doing it till I see you cry, alright? Ben: Yeah. Once you see me squirming.  

Thomas: It's like, "What kind of dance  move is that? I haven't seen it before."  

Ben: Yeah. Like all the electric dance exercise. Thomas: Yeah, yeah.  

Ben: Electric boogie. Thomas: Yeah.  

Ben: Yeah, you could tell this would be  probably slightly easier with oxygen, huh?  

Thomas: Well, definitely for the muscles.  Definitely for the brain. You're not going  

to definitely not get as fatigue,  but the idea behind the oxygen is  

to create a temporary environment where you  could train maybe way harder than normal.  

I could take people in 12 days, get  them results they haven't had in years.  

Ben: Wow. Thomas: Yeah. And, the reason is we  

keep pushing and pushing but safely, right? Ben: Yeah. Honestly, I think it's just  

as impressive. The results  you're getting with disease.  

Thomas: Well, I mean everybody wherever  they are, whatever they're doing, no matter  

what you're dealing with, when you come in, you  want to be better regardless of the diagnosis.  

You're pretty good, man. You're almost at 60.  That's probably the highest I've ever done.  

Ben: Oh, really? Thomas: Yeah. Right now,  

there's no data on this point. Alright. Ben: Uh-oh. [00:47:04] _____ to Mars.  

Thomas: You're like, "What happens  there?" We just don't know, right?  

Ben: Ben loses his tacos that he had for lunch. Thomas: Wait.  

Ben: Everything feels good except that left leg. Thomas: Yeah.  

Ben: Which is honestly where I've had some  knee issues in the past. That left leg,  

you can feel it's a little bit weaker. Thomas: So, is the signal  

weaker or the contraction weaker? Ben: The strength of that left leg. I'm getting  

way more drive with my right leg than my left. Thomas: So, what I would do is I would--  

Ben: Like a minute and 20. Thomas: Yeah.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: So, right now.  

Ben: Push through. Thomas: So, right now, 62.  

Ben: Yeah. Thomas: You  

want to just leave it there to the end? Ben: How much time do I have?  

Thomas: You got just over a minute. Ben: Just over a minute. Let's go 65 for this  

last minute. Let's see how that goes. Thomas: Here we go. I'm starting  

to like you more and more, man. Ben: Not quite a walk in the park, but.  

Thomas: It's alright. If you feel really  good tomorrow, it was my idea. If you're  

really sore, it was your idea. Ben: It was my idea, yeah. Yeah,  

I can tell [00:48:12] _____ a little bit.  Between that and my BFR training this morning.  

Thomas: Yeah. That's right. This  is like a double header for you.  

Ben: BFR doesn't beat you up too  much. It's a great setup though.  

Thomas: Yeah. Ben: You're giving people plenty of ideas here.  

Thomas: Sure. Ben: There's going to be a bunch of gyms that want  

to add something like this to their facility. Thomas: Oh, yeah. Well, the Neuro20, what's so  

cool is you don't have the level of dysfunction  a lot of people I have work with. But, imagine  

if you have trouble walking, they actually have  a program to help you walk like a normal person.  

Ben: Wow. Thomas: Yeah. I'm using it right now.  

Ben: Like a retraining type of program. Thomas: Exactly, exactly.  

Ben: So, there's just a bunch of  different settings on that thing.  

Thomas: Yup. Ben: Wow.  

Thomas: Alright, man. You did it. Ben: Alright, yeah.  

Thomas: Done. I just turned it off.  Hopefully, you don't feel anything now.  

Ben: Now. Thomas: It's still going. Won't shut off.  

Ben: It's stuck. That's the permanence.  You go over 60. It stays on permanently.  

Thomas: Yeah. Ben: Wow.  

Thomas: It's a penalty. Ben: Wow. Well, for folks watching. I mean,  

obviously, it's a pretty incredible setup  and there's a lot of information on Tom's  

website at Causenta along with other interviews  that he's done. But, I really wanted to get you  

guys thinking about ways that we can go beyond  just pumping iron, going on a walk, riding a  

bicycle. All that's great, but when you introduce  a little bit of better science like this, oxygen,  

light, electromagnetism into your fitness  protocol or your disease management protocol,  

your performance protocol. I've known about what  Tom's doing for quite some time. It's very cool to  

see what he's put together here at the facility. So, definitely recommend you check him  

out. I'm going to put all the shownotes at  BenGreenfieldLife.com/Causenta. If you like Tom,  

let me know. We'll do another interview at some  point. Come to Scottsdale in Phoenix quite a  

bit. So, if you guys want to take a deeper  dive, in the meantime, visit his website.  

Tom, thanks so much, man. I think but I'll  tell you for sure if I thank you in the  

morning. Thanks for watching, you guys. Do you want free access to comprehensive  

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