Individual Consciousness Is Not Enough - Tomas Björkman
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful podcast, Carl Hall interviews Thomas, a successful entrepreneur and social entrepreneur, on the intersection of business and spirituality. Thomas shares his journey from building an investment bank to focusing on philanthropy and projects aimed at creating a new conscious society. He discusses the need for an inner shift in individuals to bring about societal change and the importance of recognizing our role as co-creators in the evolutionary process of the universe. The conversation delves into the limitations of a purely materialistic worldview and the necessity of a multi-perspectival approach that includes inner development and collective sense-making. Thomas emphasizes the potential for business success when aligning with the evolutionary force of the universe, advocating for a future where entrepreneurship and consciousness development go hand in hand.
Takeaways
- 💼 **Business and Spirituality Intersection**: The podcast aims to explore the relationship between business practices and spirituality, a topic considered controversial but essential for holistic success.
- 🧘 **Inner Shift to Outer Shift**: Carl Hall believes that societal change begins with an inner shift in individuals, which then extends to the external world, affecting how we structure society and conduct business.
- 🚀 **Entrepreneurial Success and Social Impact**: Guest Thomas discusses his journey from building a successful business to focusing on philanthropy and social entrepreneurship, emphasizing the role of personal growth in business success.
- 🌏 **Global Initiatives and Collaboration**: Thomas has been involved in numerous global initiatives, highlighting the importance of international cooperation and the establishment of hubs worldwide for social change.
- 📚 **Education for the 21st Century**: There is a call for an updated education system that prepares individuals for the complexities of the modern world, focusing on both cognitive and emotional development.
- 🧠 **The Complexity of Human Action**: The conversation touches on the limitations of the scientific perspective in understanding human action, suggesting a need for an inner perspective that includes values, worldview, and consciousness.
- 🌱 **Evolutionary Force and Human Role**: Thomas suggests that humans are incarnations of an evolutionary force, here to co-create the world, and that aligning with this force can lead to successful and meaningful business ventures.
- 🔄 **Emergent Phenomena in Evolution**: The script discusses the concept of emergence in evolution, describing how complex systems like life and consciousness have arisen from simpler forms.
- 🌟 **Individual and Collective Growth**: Stressing the importance of personal development in handling complexity and the need for collective sense-making to address societal challenges effectively.
- 📉 **Declining Collective Consciousness**: The dialogue suggests that Western society may be less conscious collectively than in the past, indicating a need for a shift towards more awareness and action on global issues.
- 🌈 **Secular Approaches to Spiritual Questions**: As society becomes more secular, there is a need to find non-religious answers to existential questions that provide a sense of purpose and direction.
Q & A
What is the main theme of the podcast 'Cash and Soul'?
-The podcast 'Cash and Soul' explores the intersection of business and spirituality, aiming to bring the soul back into business practices and discussing how spirituality has affected the careers of successful individuals.
What is Carl Hall's background and his focus as an entrepreneur and investor?
-Carl Hall is an entrepreneur and investor who primarily focuses on impact investing. He is interested in inviting successful business individuals to discuss how spirituality has influenced their careers and how to create a societal shift.
What significant business did Thomas build and sell?
-Thomas built an investment bank, which he later sold to a Swiss bank.
What is the Inner Development Goals project that Thomas is involved in?
-Inner Development Goals is a project co-founded by Thomas, represented in over 100 countries with 500 hubs worldwide. It aims to help individuals develop inner capacities and skills to cope with the complexity of the modern world and meet global challenges.
How does Thomas view the relationship between spirituality and religion?
-Thomas differentiates between spirituality and religion, considering himself non-religious and atheist. He sees spirituality as an inner perspective that complements the scientific perspective, taking into account values, worldview, and meaning-making systems.
What is Thomas's perspective on the materialistic worldview?
-Thomas acknowledges the success of the materialistic worldview stemming from the Enlightenment but suggests it has reached its limits and needs to be complemented with an inner perspective that considers consciousness and values.
How does Thomas define consciousness?
-For Thomas, consciousness is not just the content of our minds but our mind's ability to handle both cognitive and emotional complexity.
What does Thomas believe about the evolutionary force in the universe?
-Thomas believes in an evolutionary force that has been active in the universe for 13.8 billion years, leading to the emergence of life, consciousness, and human culture. He sees humans as incarnations of this force and important co-creators of the world.
Why does Thomas think society is less conscious today compared to 50 years ago?
-Thomas believes that while individuals may be more capable of exercising individual agency, society's collective sense-making and agency have diminished. This is partly due to the breakdown of collective sense-making and the increasing complexity of the world.
What are the three areas that Thomas suggests need attention to increase societal consciousness?
-Thomas identifies individual capacity development, cultural and worldview updates, and structural aspects such as education, legal, and political systems as the three areas needing attention.
What advice does Thomas give to young individuals who want to be both financially successful and conscious?
-Thomas advises young individuals to develop an ability to sense into society and the environment, aligning themselves with the evolutionary force of the universe. He suggests that by doing so, they can lead businesses that are successful and contribute positively to humanity and the planet.
Outlines
🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Guest Welcome
The host, Carl Hall, introduces the podcast 'Cash and Soul' focusing on the convergence of business and spirituality. He emphasizes the need to reintegrate spirituality into business practices. Carl is an entrepreneur and investor with a focus on impact. The guest, Thomas, is introduced as a successful businessman who has transitioned into philanthropy and social entrepreneurship, having funded numerous startups and initiatives, including the E Credit Foundation and Inner Development Goals.
🧘♂️ Defining Spirituality and its Role in Business
The conversation delves into the definitions of spirituality and its relationship with religion. Thomas shares his perspective, having a background in mathematics and physics, and not identifying with traditional religious beliefs. However, he acknowledges the limitations of a purely scientific worldview when it comes to human action and the importance of inner qualities such as values, worldview, and consciousness. The discussion suggests that an inner shift in human consciousness is necessary to address the complex challenges faced by humanity.
🌏 Materialism and the Evolution of Worldviews
The speakers discuss the transition from a dogmatic religious worldview to a rational scientific one during the Enlightenment. While acknowledging the benefits of the materialistic worldview, such as advancements in medicine and democracy, they also recognize its limitations. Thomas suggests that the current worldview may be contributing to existential crises and that there is a need to integrate an inner perspective to address these challenges effectively.
🌱 The Emergence of Life and Consciousness
The paragraph explores the concept of emergence in complex systems, using life and consciousness as examples. It is suggested that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of the world, possibly preceding matter. The discussion touches on the idea of an evolutionary force or source that has been active since the Big Bang, shaping the universe and life within it. The concept of humans as co-creators with this force is introduced, emphasizing our role in the ongoing evolution of the world.
🔍 Collective Challenges and the Need for Awakening
The focus shifts to the collective challenges humanity faces and the necessity for a collective awakening. It is argued that individual agency is not enough and that collective agency is required to drive systemic change. The paragraph discusses the decline in collective sense-making and the breakdown of structures that support it. The importance of legislation and collective action in shaping markets and societal systems is highlighted.
🚀 Entrepreneurship and the Journey to Consciousness
Thomas reflects on his journey towards greater consciousness, particularly during his time as an entrepreneur. He discusses the limitations of traditional economic models and the importance of recognizing human agency in creating markets. His experiences led him to explore different ways of understanding the world, integrating scientific, introspective, and sociological perspectives. The paragraph also touches on the value of leadership development programs in fostering personal growth and expanding awareness beyond immediate business and family needs.
🌟 Navigating Complexity and Expanding Awareness
The conversation emphasizes the importance of developing individual capacities to navigate a more complex world. It suggests that the current education system is outdated and does not adequately prepare individuals for the cognitive and emotional demands of modern society. The speakers advocate for a societal shift towards a new, richer, and more multi-perspectival worldview, as well as structural changes to societal systems to support collective sense-making.
💼 Advice for the Young and Conscious Entrepreneur
In the final paragraph, Thomas offers advice to young individuals seeking both financial success and heightened consciousness. He suggests aligning oneself with the evolutionary force of the universe and being a positive servant to that force as a path to successful business and positive impact on humanity and the planet. The conversation concludes with a mutual appreciation for the insights shared and an invitation for a follow-up discussion.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Spirituality
💡Entrepreneur
💡Conscious Society
💡
💡Inner Development Goals
💡Collective Agency
💡Evolutionary Force
💡Materialistic Worldview
💡Existential Challenges
💡Consciousness
💡Social Entrepreneur
Highlights
The podcast aims to explore the intersection of business and spirituality, a controversial yet important subject.
Carl Hall, the host, is an entrepreneur and investor focused on impact, seeking to bring spirituality back into business.
Guest Thomas, a successful businessman turned social entrepreneur, discusses his journey from investment banking to philanthropy.
Thomas emphasizes the need for an inner shift in individuals to create a societal change, aligning with the podcast's theme.
The conversation delves into the definition of spirituality, distinguishing it from religious beliefs.
Thomas shares his perspective as a physicist, suggesting that consciousness and the human mind's complexity surpass scientific understanding.
The discussion highlights the limitations of a purely materialistic worldview and the need to embrace a more holistic perspective.
Thomas introduces the concept of humans as incarnations of an evolutionary force, contributing to the world's ongoing development.
The podcast addresses the challenges of collective action and the breakdown of collective sense-making in modern society.
Carl and Thomas explore the idea that society's awareness and consciousness have declined over the past 50 years, despite technological advancements.
The importance of individual development, collective agency, and cultural narratives in addressing existential questions is underscored.
Thomas advocates for a new, multi-perspectival worldview that can help society navigate the complexities of the 21st century.
The conversation stresses the need for updating societal structures, including education and legal systems, to support collective sense-making.
Thomas shares his personal journey towards greater consciousness, emphasizing the role of inner growth and development.
The podcast concludes with advice for young individuals seeking both financial success and heightened consciousness, encouraging alignment with the evolutionary force of the universe.
The host and guest agree on the potential of businesses to be successful while also contributing positively to humanity and the planet.
The discussion encourages a shift towards a future where business leadership is guided by an emerging, conscious, and evolutionary perspective.
Transcripts
welcome to cash and
soul so um this podcast is about the
intersection of business and
spirituality um and as you know it's
pretty controversial subject even Jesus
throughout the the the money lenders
from the temple 2,000 years ago um but
my belief is that uh we need to have the
soul back in the cash um and uh uh so
that's what we're exploring here in this
podcast
um uh my name is Carl Hall uh I'm an
entrepreneur and investor primarily with
impact um and this podcast for me is
about inviting some very successful
business men and women uh and talking to
them about spirituality and how that
affected their career and and how to
create this shift in society that we
need um and I'm very happy to have you
here Thomas uh I count you as a friend
and and also an advisor uh thank you and
thank you for having me on your podcast
thank you and um I want to say first
that I really admire you as a you are a
renaissance man I mean you first of all
for the people that don't know Thomas
you you had a very successful business
career where you built up among other
things built up an investment bank which
you sold to a an
Austrian
firm a Swiss bank Swiss Swiss sorry yeah
uh and i' also uh already 2008 started
with uh philanthropy and projects to
build up the new conscious Society right
so you've uh funded numerous
startups uh you have uh you know a lot
of initiatives like E Credit
Foundation uh and now most recently uh
you have or recently you have also
started um inner development goals which
are kind of what we need to cre to be
able to um deliver on the Millennium
goals the the UN Millennium goals which
as I understand have been widely
successful I don't know how many
countries are they in now it's like a
well uh it's a relatively young uh
project uh first of all I I should say
that uh uh I don't call myself a a
philanthropist
uh I've been successful in business yes
I I built a few businesses in it and
property and as you mentioned in in
banking but I didn't make a huge uh
Fortune so I'd rather see myself as a
social entrepreneur where I sometimes
use my own money as seed funding for for
various
projects uh I also sometimes call myself
an author I've written written or
co-written three
books um and uh the inner development
project which I'm a co-founder of there
we are many people involved in that
project uh is today represented in more
than 100 countries with 500 hubs
worldwide and we uh just some months ago
completed the second Global Summit here
in Stockholm where we had 1,500 people
for uh three days joining in and
exploring
as you said what are the inner uh
capacities and skills that we all need
to develop in order for us to be able to
uh just cope with the complexity of our
world today and to meet the global
challenges that we are facing as
Humanity yeah exactly so so uh as I said
you really are a person that I admire
and and um and also I feel that you're a
fellow uh fellow um uh Fighter for this
shift that we need in society right um
where I think um and this is a little
bit what this podcast is about is about
the spiritual side of business right so
uh and I wanted to maybe start with with
so can I yes ask so is it obvious that
this shift that I think that more and
more of us are feeling that that we do
need in in society um is that a
spiritual shift is it an inner shift
or could we just be looking at this as a
as a as a shift in the outside of the
world in as a shift in a new way of
structuring society democracy and the
way we are doing business or is it
really also an inner shift and if it is
an inner
shift why would we call it a spiritual
shift that that might be something that
we could drill yeah that's an
interesting question I mean um I believe
that it
um I think I mean my belief is that it
will start with an inner shift in a lot
of people uh and then then when when we
have the inner shift it will spread to
the outer shift uh as as I say but but I
mean the spiritual I mean you're
alluding to that but spirituality is a
bit of a kind of I don't know a word
yeah and it's also a word that people
have you know so I'm little interested
what's your what's your
your relationship to spirituality and
what's your um definition of it or or
your your relationship to
it and and what what is the relationship
between spirituality and and religion do
you need to be religious to be
spiritual am I am I spiritual so um let
me start and say that um I studied
mathematics and physics at University so
I come from a very natural science
perspective and I have always called
myself non
religious even atheist okay okay so so
uh uh I do not believe in
in um an allseeing and intervening God
that you can pray to and that and put
things right the man on the on the cloud
the man on the cloud or even a
sophisticated man on the cloud no I
don't believe in a even in a
sophisticated man on the cloud U but uh
I do see that the world is much much
more complicated and even
complex
than uh the picture of the world that I
was given when I studied physics at
University
um one thing that is evident to me is
that physics and natural science is a
very good approach when it comes to
trying to understand the natural world
if if we are talking about things like
stars and planets and gravitation and
atmosphere and things like that then
science and experimental science and
empirical science and the positivistic
approach functions very very well but
when it comes to Human
Action uh then we need to complement the
scientific perspective with some sort of
inner perspective that also takes into
account things like our values our
worldview our meaning making uh uh
system and it might even need to take to
into account what we call Consciousness
H and by Consciousness I I mean not just
the content of our mind but really our
mind's um ability to handle both
cognitive and
emotional complexity and to me sorry for
ranting a bit here now but I'm trying to
put a frame here on my thinking that to
me
today I think it's quite evident that
our way of thinking seeing the world our
world viw the way we usually relate to
ourselves to each other to society and
to the
planet that
way uh has now really reached an end of
its
capacity and we are in a major shift
that that must
involve um an inner shift as well
because I think it's interesting because
the way I'm feeling we have for a long
time in our world have this
materialistic worldview right and if you
look just look at the view of the human
brain is basically that our our our soul
lives in the human brain and when the
human when the actual machine so to
speak is gone so is the human right um
whereby I think a lot of people now are
shifting and I would ask you what what
you think I mean when when the brain
disapp appears do you believe there's
something left there is there soul is
there something that is outside of the
physical um physical brain or physical
body uh over what is your view
there first I would like to comment bit
on on this materialistic worldview that
you are referring to um we really got
that worldview during the
Enlightenment when we went from a
dogmatic religious
worldview into a rational scientific
worldview and that worldview focused
very much on the outside world what is
measurable and
predictable and that worldview has been
very successful for us humans and I
think we need to really really
acknowledge that because that worldview
the enlightenment worldview has given us
everything like modern
medicine human rights
democracy and all the things that we
would never want to be without so we
should really be thankful and
appreciative of that worldview but again
at the same time I think it's becoming
more and more evident that that
worldview has really delivered what it
can can deliver on its own and I might
even say that I believe that it is this
worldview that is now the root cause of
many of the existential challenges that
humanity is facing not just the
environmental crisis but also the crisis
in democracy the the the crisis in in
understanding our world some people are
talking about a meaning crisis the
psychological ill health obesity crisis
all all of that I
think could be traced back to the fact
that we need to complement this uh very
successful materialistic worldview with
an inside perspective bring the inner
world into account as well I I agree I
me to me it's a lot that uh we've had a
worldview where you know um basically
you you live until you die and then
you're gone right yeah so the whole idea
is that let's just grab as much as I can
while I'm still alive right and that's
been kind of to me at least the
worldview that we're in right now and I
think um if you look at previous
societies they also had a more
continuation of Life they felt they were
a part of a larger ho and I think that's
what we're a little bit missing here um
absolutely um and and I think also
um and you're a physicist and I it seems
to me that there's more and more growing
scientific evidence also for that
worldview that we're not
only uh you know machines uh and you
know atoms that are randomly put
together but there's some kind of
Consciousness there's some kind of will
or or uh in this but you're smiling now
so see I'm the wrong answer no no no but
I
mean um it's it's um it's difficult I
mean
um one way way to go and that's what why
I was smiling because I think you were
going down the route towards okay so so
in this
world if we reduce things and look at
smaller and smaller things in the
materialistic worldview we end up with
particles but isn't it the case that
Consciousness is really the the
fundament of uh of the world m and
looking at some uh pan
psychism
model um but I don't think that that is
is helpful I think that is being
reductionistic in in in the other uh
Direction I I think the world is more
complex than uh than
that um in the in the book in my book
the world we create I really start that
book by looking at the Big Bang
and and trying to follow some sort
of evolutionary force during the
13.8 billion years that have passed
since the big bang and follow that to
the origin of Life origin of
Consciousness origin of of human culture
and to look at our role as humans in
this world today what what are we what
sort of creatures are we and I don't
think that you one needs to become
religious or have a pound psychic view
of the world to say that there is
definitely some sort
of
evolutionary Source some sort of
evolutionary
force that has been active in the
universe now for 13.8 billion billion
years and you can look at complexity
Theory the theory around evolving
Dynamic complex complex complex systems
that that is really well established now
in in physical science but also in in in
other
sciences and understand that when you
have a complex dynamic system that is
evolving then every now and then you
come to a threat hold where you have the
phenomenon of
emergence meaning
that this complex system suddenly self
organizes in a new way and new
properties that you could not not even
in theory predict before it happens will
emerge and one example of that is of
course
life so how did Life come about from
this dead dead material right material
and that is an emerging phenomenon and
then later on out of this life
Consciousness appears first in very
rudimentary form in simple animals but
then later on in mammal Consciousness
and in human consciousness and that is
also something completely new uh and I
would call it an emergent uh phenomenon
and then a little bit
later out of this Con Consciousness we
develop the capacity of symbolic
language and we start to communicate and
we start to build up some sort of
culture so humans are the only animals
that are able to take some of our
Consciousness some of our deas and build
them into our environment and create
things like World Views and value
systems and
complex symbolic systems and things like
the market exactly exactly no and and I
think also I mean I'm not obviously as
good as in physics as you are but but I
understand that that people have now
been trying to calculate what are the
odds of a string of DNA happening you
know by itself right it's it's minuscule
and even even the the the you know the
billions of years that the Universe has
exist existed is not long enough to kind
of to create that kind of a um that kind
of a random event in a way yeah but it
wasn't completely random so uh no
exactly and that's the point it wasn't
random right so um but do you believe
that there was some sort of
uh uh deterministic Force there was it
an intelligent design putting it I I
believe there's kind of the
Consciousness I think was before matter
if I'm to and that then there's that
some kind of uh
yeah I don't know if you call it the
vine or something but it's it's a uh
some kind of um force that wants to move
things in One Direction right and to
manifest itself want to exactly wants to
I can agree with that yeah to me I mean
and also that's what happened to me
sometimes in in psychedelic experience
i' I've gone back and seen that the
Universe wants to experience itself
right and that's why we have this
duality in in everything right that and
and you know good and bad white and
black uh and it's it's the universe
wanting to experience itself and we're
all a reflection of you and me are the
same thing but we're here to exper
you know um each other in a way um so
and and um yeah yeah no I certainly
believe uh that there is this sort of
evolutionary force that wants to express
itself and this evolutionary Force has
been active now again for 13.8 billion
years but I also think and here is
where I might touch more on on the
spiritual uh uh I think that we have to
realize that we as
humans are actually let's call it
incarnations of that evolutionary force
and that that evolutionary force in the
universe and certainly on on this planet
is acting through US
humans and that makes us very important
co-creators of the world that is
evolving so that we can not just see
ourselves as Spectators to the ongoing
Evolution but we are actually
incarnations of that evolutionary force
and part of at least what I
believe are our human task in life is to
whether we recognize
this um
specifically or not it is
about understanding our role as
co-creators of the world and aligning
ourselves with that process and trying
to help that process forward right as
much or as little as we can as humans
but I think I'm quite humble that I
think that every human being whether you
are in in powerful or influential or or
not is actually playing
a a specific role in this evolutionary
process and if we can wake up to this
and play this role more
consciously uh that will help the
process forward and I think you sorry
just one more thing I think humanity is
right now at a point where in order to
meet these Collective challenges that we
are facing it is not just enough that
some humans individually
wake up to the fact that we are active
co-creators of of of the world but we
also have to somehow
collectively have this Awakening yeah
and I do not see that happening at at
all I mean collectively we are
less awake today as Humanity or at least
as a western civilization a western
Society
than we were 50 years ago okay why are
you saying that why why is it why are we
less uh what how do you measure that or
how how do you well
um again a a lot of things when we are
creating this world we can do
individually as as entrepreneurs or
whatever we want we we we have a lot of
individual agency and during the last
hundreds and hundreds and certainly the
last 50 years
we have generally again in the Western
World become better and better at
realizing that we have individual agency
and also increased our ability to
exercise that individual
agency but some and perhaps some of the
most important aspects when it comes to
creating the new world is about forming
the context forming the system and again
we have to recognize that for example
the market that we mentioned is a human
construct even the free market is a
human construct and could be different
and when we when we want to change those
things we need to do that by exercising
Collective agency and often that is
through legislation yeah but why are we
less conscious than we were 50 years ago
yeah yeah so individually we might be
more able to
to exercise our AG gency but when it
comes to Collective agency again say
that we wanted to form the market change
the market a bit to change okay got so
then we need to exercise Collective
agency and that ability we have been
losing okay because for many reasons but
one of them is of course in order to be
able to exercise Collective agency we
need to have Collective sense making and
around us today as we speak Collective
sense making is breaking down and then
we can talk about why is that but it was
easier for us again in in the west to
make sense of the world collectively 50
years ago agree on some action and then
Implement that through legislation than
it is today okay yeah so that's a bit a
bit like if you look at an individual an
individual who cannot even think for
himself or herself what to do and
becomes completely lame and
non-active is of course an individual
that is much less aware than someone who
can really reflect on their own
situation make sound decisions and then
Implement that in in action that's a
more aware person if you look at the
society it's the same thing a society
that can really make sense of what is
going on make care ful decisions and
then Implement those decisions is a more
aware society and that's why I say that
we are as a society less aware or less
conscious today than we
were even 20 years ago certainly 50
years ago interesting interesting I also
a little bit I mean I'm obviously also
interested about your journey towards
Consciousness and um Can can you tell us
about I mean the Consciousness and being
more conscious as has obviously been a
really important thing in your life what
what are the things what was your
journey what what made you more
conscious and what what lifted you to
the next
level I don't know if if I want to
to frame it that that way okay
um really I think it's more complex than
than than talking about levels of
consciousness
[Music]
but
perhaps one way of seeing it is is going
back to u to uh agency again and if and
I think that I developed my
agency and sense
making during my years as an
entrepreneur uh again started by
studying uh mathematics and physics and
and got a model of the world but
realized very quickly in business that
this scientific model even the model
when I studied a bit of of um economics
at
University was really not very helpful
when dealing with the real business
world the the real human world right
specifically the economic models that we
are still teaching at Business Schools
the the
neoclassical econom macroeconomic yeah
100% um
models are really not at all helpful
when you're trying to be an an
entrepreneur because those models they
more or less assume that the the market
and the business world is a natural
phenomenon that could be modeled through
elegant
mathematical models when again one of
the most important insights I think for
an entrepreneur is
that you are not you are not acting in a
market you you you are actually trying
to create a market for your products or
for your ideas or something so as an
entrepreneur you become quite aware of
your
capacity to be a co-creator of this
world and I think that's was one of the
starting points for me to become more
curious
about different ways of of knowing and
understanding the world starting to see
the scientific perspective as as one
perspective but then complement
complimenting that with more
introspective perspectives but all so
more sociologic perspectives realizing
that again as an entrepreneur when
you're looking at the human world and
you want to create something in that you
you have to realize that the human world
is not a natural phenomenon the human
world is to 90% created by us humans and
could therefore be differently and part
of your task as an entrepreneur is to
make that difference so that got me
interested in a more philosophical
aspect of of the world and trying
to uh
yeah ex explore different ways of of
learning but then one thing that
really uh if I should mention one thing
that
really pushed me a little bit out of my
my comfort zone and I think that is all
always what is needed for your for you
to grow you have to be pushed out of
your comfort zone that was when I was uh
chairman of a small banking group here
in in Scandinavia some 15 years ago or
even a bit longer ago I had the
opportunity to work with some very
talented leadership development
Consultants okay who showed me and my
management team the value of not just
lifelong
learning but lifelong inner growth and
development so they pointed out that
there is a difference between what some
people call horizontal learning where
you learn new skills and facts and
things and new software program or a new
language or something like that which is
of course Very necessary in in a rapidly
moving world that we have horizontal
learning but then we also have the
vertical development that it's more
about developing your inner capacities
to handle both cognitive and emotional
complexity and what happened to you when
you kind of you reached a new level I
mean what what would you say what what
was the change in your life when you
kind of reached a new level of of
Consciousness yeah again uh I I wouldn't
I wouldn't call it level
because in in many ways we have many
dimensions in
ourselves that that we can de develop so
you you can you can speak
about your cognitive abilities your
emotional abilities your abilities for
self-reflection and self understanding
your ability to
relate your relational intelligence if
you want want to call it call it that
but overall what uh what I noticed and
what we noticed in the management team
was that through the these programs
which these Consultants called
leadership development program which I
today would perhaps call personal
development programs or inner
development programs but back then had
they sold it to us as in the development
we wouldn't have bought it we wouldn't
have bought it
I think that's probably still the case
yeah right so leadership development was
was a better framing for for uh for us
but I and we certainly noticed that not
just became we became better at
emotionally and cognitively handle the
complexity of business we we became
better at functioning in a highly
complex business
environment but also this had uh
benefits on us privately as humans as
humans I certainly noticed that in in my
family life and in my private life and
also I think that it for me shifted or
expanded my focus or again expanded my
awareness a bit beyond the immediate
needs of business and
of what my company and my family needed
to expand my my awareness of the needs
of society and the the the larger world
and perhaps a bit further on also future
generations and I think that is perhaps
the most important part of we call it
Consciousness development it it is
expanding your Circles of Care or
Circles of belonging yeah that's
interesting I mean because um um we have
about 10 minutes left on the program and
it's actually two more issues I'd like
to cover way and the first one is I
thought it was really interesting that
you said that we're probably less
conscious now than we were as a society
Collective Consciousness is is less than
50 years ago um so my first question is
again in the in the Western World I'm
talking about Northern Europe Northern
America yeah I I say anything about the
rest of the world right right but my
question is what do we need to do to
kind of reverse what can we do to kind
of get the the needle to move in the
because obviously we need to get more
conscious right otherwise we won't
survive as a race right we we we know
how to solve the climate crisis but
we're not doing it right we have the
technology we have the money to do it
but we're not doing it so what do we
need to do to get get us moving in the
right direction with in terms of
Consciousness yeah
so I think in order for us to develop
this ability of of collective sense
making and and
Collective
agency we need to look at it at least
two three different
areas where one is our individual
capacity to navigate this world that is
compartive 50 years ago much much more
complex both cognitively and emotionally
yeah so it demands more of us as
individuals to be able to hold and
navigate
this and even though the school system
is teaching us a lot of new things
today it doesn't really focus on
developing those capacities that we need
for that so many of us feel more or less
in over our heads today we are not
making sense and then a very natural
human reaction to such a situation is to
look for an external authority to guide
us it could be a dog strong man or
dogmatic religion or a strong
man and that is what we're seeing today
so part of the solution is
to the dictator maybe and you can help
us all to to develop those
capacities um but then the the next step
is to to look at uh the
culture and our world viw and and our
our Collective meaning making and again
we are essentially there stuck
in uh a 200 plus year old uh mind frame
collectively so I think we we need to
update that and that again is not
something that we can do individually
that is something that has to be done as
a society we are in a shift where we
need to adapt some sort of new
richer more pers
multi-perspectival
worldview and then the the the third
aspect that that is more what I would
call the structural aspects that that is
looking at things like the the school
system the legal system the political
system the framework around social media
and things like that so how could we
restructure those things in society and
update those structures for the 21st
century what would the 21st century
really education look like I mean the
education system we have today it's not
20th century education it's 19th century
education we system we have
and then for new things when when
technology is evolving rapidly as it is
social media but also artificial
intelligence and things like that we we
need to catch up on the societal systems
that are regulating and guiding those
Technologies so that they will support
human Collective sense making instead of
as I believe that they certainly social
media but also artificial intelligence
might if we are not careful instead of
building the capacity for Collective
sense making actually be destroying our
capacity for Collective sense making so
what what I'm hearing is that it's
basically three levels I mean it's first
individual development of course that we
need to take responsibility for we need
to also you know um work at our ability
to to collectively uh and maybe you know
through different social media and stuff
like that but also institutions yeah
institution legislation and on the
cultural side it's of course very much
around narratives what are the stories
we are telling ourselves around humans
why are we
here um what is our task why do we have
a society what is the purpose and then
again we are into the spiritual aspects
and even religious aspects because of
course that has traditionally been the
realm of religion and spirituality to
give us those answers and when we are
are now at least in northern Europe
becoming more and more secular societies
then of course we cannot leave those
questions off the table no no I we we
need to find secular approaches to those
existential questions and those stories
and
narratives um yes so um we have a little
bit more time or yeah so just last
question then if if if you were to give
advice to a young young person that
wanted to be both uh you know successful
financially but also uh be conscious uh
what would be your uh and expand his or
her Consciousness what would be your
advice
yeah yes and I truly believe that there
is not a
contradiction between uh being
successful in business and being more
conscious or more aware rather the
opposite uh and uh here
uh uh my colleague and friend Oto
scharmer has got a uh very good
expression and even title of a book He's
talk he's talking about leading from the
emerging Future Okay um and I think that
you as an
entrepreneur
and business person you don't need
perhaps to be an entrepreneur you you
could be an a business person you can
develop an ability to sense
into um
Society sends into your
environment and perhaps even send into
the future as it
emerges and if you develop that sens
ility which you do not need to call a a
spiritual sensibility but I think I
think it is because what you are feeling
into is this ongoing evolutionary force
of the universe and if you can feel into
that and align yourself with that and be
a positive
servant of that evolutionary impulse in
the universe then your business will be
successful and hopefully it will also do
good for you for Humanity and the planet
I think that's I love that really nice
uh ending of this because I I can just
say that myself um I mean that was one
of my big developments when I started to
have this experiences 12 years ago is
the ability to have inter ition and to
sense where where things are going and
and I think so I think that's a
beautiful advice and not just ride that
but also so influence it a bit you surf
on those waves and you can make
decisions but you cannot surf against
the wave you need to identify the wave
wave I think it's beautifully put and
and and I wish we actually had more time
um uh I felt that we I would have loved
to have continued this conversation for
much longer and will be for a second you
have to come back for a second episode
thank you so much thomask thank you so
much it's been a pleasure yeah pleasure
to have you here thank you thank
you
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