Yuval Noah Harari: 'There is a battle for the soul of the Israeli nation'
Summary
TLDRYuval Noah Harari, historian and author, discusses his latest children's book series 'Unstoppable Us,' aimed at explaining history to children during uncertain times. Harari reflects on how current societal and technological changes make it difficult for adults to guide younger generations. He explores historical contexts behind fear, pandemics, and warfare, stressing the role of choice in human conflicts. Harari emphasizes the importance of resilience and emotional intelligence to cope with rapid change, while also discussing pressing global issues, such as military budgets, the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the challenges of peace-building.
Takeaways
- 📚 The latest book series by Yal focuses on educating children about history to help them navigate an uncertain future.
- 🧠 Adults today are not good guides for the future because they don't know how the world will look in 10 or 20 years due to rapid changes.
- 🦁 Children's fears, like monsters under the bed, stem from historical memories of real dangers like predators from ancient times.
- 🦠 Pandemics began after the Agricultural Revolution when humans started living in crowded villages with animals, creating a breeding ground for germs.
- ⚔️ Wars are not inevitable or part of human nature; they often stem from imagined stories or ideologies, not necessities like food or territory.
- 🕊️ Despite historical narratives of conflict, such as between Israelis and Palestinians, change is possible, and humans can break vicious cycles of war.
- 📉 Over time, military spending has decreased in many countries, replaced by investments in healthcare and education, though this trend is now reversing.
- 🇮🇱 In Israel, there is a battle for the soul of the nation, balancing between patriotism and dangerous ideas of Jewish supremacy.
- 🎯 The elimination of Hamas' military capabilities is seen as necessary, but eliminating the ideology behind it is unrealistic.
- 💡 The future job market and social structures are highly unpredictable due to AI and other technologies, so emotional intelligence and adaptability will be key skills for future generations.
Q & A
Why did the author feel it was important to write for children at this moment in history?
-The author felt it was important to write for children because, for the first time, adults are not reliable guides for the future. With the rapid pace of change and uncertainty about what the world will look like when today's children become adults, history is a valuable tool to help children understand the world.
How does history help children understand their fears, according to the author?
-The author explains that many fears, such as a child's fear of monsters under the bed, stem from historical memories. These fears were once linked to real dangers, like wild animals that threatened human survival. Understanding the historical roots of these emotions can help children make sense of their fears.
What is the author's perspective on the cause of wars in human history?
-The author argues that most wars are not caused by fights over food or territory but by imagined stories and ideologies. These narratives, such as religious or nationalistic stories, drive people to fight, even when resources are not the issue.
Why does the author believe wars are not inevitable?
-The author believes that wars are human choices and not driven by natural forces, like wolves or chimpanzees fighting for territory. Wars are largely influenced by the stories people tell themselves, and this means they are avoidable if humans change their narratives.
What historical evidence does the author give to show that war is a relatively recent phenomenon?
-The author mentions that the first archaeological evidence of warfare is from about 13,000 years ago in the Nile Valley. Before that, there is no evidence of warfare, suggesting it is not an innate or ancient part of human behavior.
How does the author use state budgets to measure the level of violence in the world?
-The author points out that historically, most state budgets were dedicated to military spending. However, in the early 21st century, military spending worldwide dropped to about 7%, while health care spending rose to 10%, indicating a shift away from prioritizing violence. This trend, however, is now reversing as military budgets increase again.
What does the author suggest is the key to understanding the current war between Israel and Hamas?
-The author emphasizes that understanding the political aims behind the war is crucial. Wars are a continuation of politics, and without knowing the goals of the conflict, it is difficult to evaluate the outcomes or understand the motivations of those involved.
What is the author's greatest concern regarding Israel?
-The author is most concerned about the internal battle for the soul of the Israeli nation, specifically between patriotism and the rise of Jewish supremacy. This struggle threatens the foundational principles of the secular nationalism that built Israel.
Why does the author believe eliminating Hamas is unrealistic?
-The author believes that eliminating Hamas completely is unrealistic because it is a political movement and ideology. The more practical goal would be to eliminate its military capabilities, but a long-term solution requires offering Palestinians a better future to counter Hamas' influence.
What does the author suggest is the most important skill for future generations?
-The author believes that emotional intelligence and psychological resilience are the most important skills for future generations. Given the rapid pace of change in the world, individuals will need to continually reinvent themselves and adapt throughout their lives.
Outlines
📚 Writing for Children Amid Uncertainty
The speaker discusses their children's book series 'Unstoppable Us,' aimed at explaining the world to children during a time of unprecedented uncertainty. They emphasize how, for the first time in history, adults do not have a clear vision of what the future holds, making history a key tool in helping children understand complex issues like fear, wars, and pandemics. The speaker highlights how understanding historical context is crucial for navigating present and future challenges.
🌀 The Imaginary Causes of Wars
Wars, the speaker explains, are often driven by stories humans create rather than by material needs like food or territory. Using the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an example, the speaker asserts that the struggle over the Holy Rock in Jerusalem is more about imagined narratives tied to religion than about resources. They question whether humanity is doomed to repeat the same conflicts or if there's hope for change, noting that human choices, not inevitabilities, drive warfare.
💸 Military Spending and the Vicious Cycle of War
The speaker draws attention to military budgets as a key measure of societal priorities, showing how military spending has declined globally since the 20th century but is now rising again. They describe the vicious cycle where countries, fearing threats, increase military spending, prompting others to do the same, which may lead to a return to global militarization. They contrast this with the more positive cycle of reducing military budgets to focus on health and education, creating a better quality of life.
⚔️ The Political Aims of War
The speaker highlights the importance of understanding the political aims behind wars, using the U.S. invasion of Iraq as an example of how military victories can lead to unintended political outcomes. They emphasize the need for clear objectives, noting that Israel’s current conflict with Hamas raises questions about long-term political goals. Without these goals, military actions risk becoming misguided and ultimately counterproductive.
⚖️ Justice vs. Peace in Conflict Resolution
The speaker reflects on how both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have vastly different views of justice due to their unique historical narratives. They argue that a focus on peace, rather than justice, offers a more practical way forward. Despite decades of failed peace efforts, the speaker believes the only option is to keep trying, as the alternative is perpetual conflict.
🇮🇱 The Soul of Israel: Patriotism vs. Supremacy
The speaker expresses concern for the internal struggle within Israel between patriotism and Jewish supremacy. They argue that patriotism should be about embracing the uniqueness of a nation while respecting others, whereas supremacy places one's nation above others, leading to dangerous ideologies. The speaker views this internal conflict as a greater threat to Israel than external enemies.
🎯 The Unrealistic Goal of Eliminating Hamas
The speaker discusses the goal of eliminating Hamas, suggesting that while it’s unrealistic to entirely eliminate the group, reducing its military capabilities is a more achievable objective. They caution that unless Palestinians are offered a better future, eliminating Hamas could lead to the rise of something even worse. The conflict between Israel and Hamas is framed as a broader struggle over the future of the region.
🔀 The Political Maze of War
The speaker stresses the importance of having a clear vision for the future when waging war. They criticize Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for failing to articulate long-term political goals, noting that without a clear plan, wars risk becoming endless. They compare political conflicts to mazes, where understanding the desired end goal is key to finding a solution.
🤖 The Uncertainty of the Future: AI and Rapid Change
The speaker reflects on the unprecedented uncertainty of the future, driven largely by technological advances like AI. They note that even basic advice from older generations no longer applies in a world changing so rapidly. In this environment, emotional intelligence and psychological resilience are essential skills for future generations, who will need to constantly adapt to new realities.
💡 Preparing Future Generations for Rapid Change
The speaker concludes with advice for future generations, emphasizing the importance of emotional intelligence and adaptability. They warn that the rapid pace of change in the 21st century will require individuals to continually reinvent themselves, creating psychological stress. Governments should invest in mental health infrastructure to help people cope with the pressures of constant change.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Unstoppable Us
💡Historical Memory
💡Pandemics and Agricultural Revolution
💡Human Choice in Warfare
💡Justice vs. Peace
💡Military Expenditure and Social Priorities
💡Iranian Hegemony
💡Patriotism vs. Supremacy
💡Psychological Resilience
💡Ideological Conflict
Highlights
The book 'Unstoppable Us' is focused on explaining history to children to help them understand the world at a crucial moment in history.
For the first time, adults are not reliable guides for the future as nobody knows what the world will look like in 10 or 20 years.
History helps children understand even their most basic emotions, such as the fear of monsters under the bed.
Pandemics were not common throughout most of human history but started with the Agricultural Revolution when people began living in large, crowded villages.
Wars are not inevitable and are mostly driven by imagined stories in people's minds rather than objective necessities like food or territory.
One of the big challenges is to break the cycle of war, where countries feel forced to increase military budgets due to perceived threats.
There's been a major change in state budgets over time, where spending on health care now surpasses military expenditure in many countries.
The Israel-Palestinian conflict is not about food or land but about deeply embedded historical narratives and religious significance.
History shows that wars can be won militarily but lost politically, as seen in the American invasion of Iraq, where Iran emerged as the real winner.
There is a battle for the soul of Israel between patriotism and ideas of Jewish supremacy.
Peace should be prioritized over the concept of justice, as justice is subjective, but peace can be objectively measured by whether people are dying.
The war between Israel and Hamas is partly driven by the fear of peace treaties that could normalize relations between Israel and Arab nations.
The elimination of Hamas’s military capabilities is necessary, but what comes next is equally important — offering Palestinians a better future.
The uncertainty of the future is profound due to AI and other rapid technological changes, making it difficult to know what skills children will need.
Emotional intelligence and psychological resilience will be the most important skills for the future as rapid change becomes the norm.
Governments need to invest more in mental health infrastructure to help people cope with the increasing psychological stress of constant change.
Transcripts
yal your latest book is focused on
children it's a children's series that's
going to be coming out yeah Unstoppable
us just tell us why at this point you
felt it was so important to write for
children to
Children you know the basic idea is to
explain the world to Children especially
at at this crucial moment in history
when for the first time adults are not
really good guides for the future of of
these kids I mean we for the first time
we have no idea how the world would look
like when the children of today are
themselves grown-ups nobody knows what
the job market what the economy what
Society would look like in 10 or 20
years and to deal with the unknown
history is always an important key so um
you know it starts with your your most
basic em emotions like you're a kid you
wake up in the middle of the night
afraid that there is a monster under the
bed this is actually a historical memory
from hundreds of thousands of years ago
when there were indeed monsters that
came to eat children in the middle of
the night lions and cheetah and things
like that and if you woke up in fear and
called your mom you could be saved if
you kept sleeping you were eaten so to
even understand something as basic as as
that um it's helpful for children to
know our history
and certainly when it comes to the big
questions of politics and economics why
are there so many wars in the world um
so it's a historical question where do
Wars come from where do pandemics come
from for instance it it was very I think
insightful to know during the covid
pandemic that pandemics were not a
constant feature of human history they
began only with the Agricultural
Revolution hunter gatherers in the Stone
Age did not suffer from pandemics they
moved around in very small bands even if
somebody got sick and infected like five
other people you could not have a
pandemic it started with the
Agricultural Revolution when lots of
people and farm animals goats chickens
live together in crowded Villages which
people built these first Villages and
towns supposed to be like paradise for
humans it turned out this is Paradise
for
germs and it's it's the same with Wars
you know people sometimes think that war
is like part of human nature actually
the first clear evidence in the
archaeological record for Warfare
between people is only from about 13,000
years ago 13 13 13,000 years ago from
the Nile Valley we have no
archaeological evidence for Warfare
before that moment why do we keep doing
it then what Warfare yeah I mean if we
if it is a phenomenon as you say you
know history is a long time it's only
when you think about it as a historian
13,000 years ago for you is not that
long it's not that long no and yet we to
this day I mean if you look at the state
of the world it continues to happen and
it is a tool that people use first
before talking first before dialogue or
diplomacy um as the Stan I think the
most important thing to realize is a
human Choice Wars are never inevitable
among humans some people think that
humans fight for the same reason that
wolves and chimpanzees fight that we
fight over food and territory and this
is just part of the objective nature of
things and this is almost never the case
most wars in history are not really
about food or territory they they are
about the stories that we imagine in our
own minds and I look at the war between
Israelis and Palestinians for instance
there is objectively speaking there is
enough land between the Mediterranean
and the Jordan River to build houses and
schools and hospitals for everyone there
is enough food to feed everybody people
don't really fight about food they fight
about the imaginary stories in their
heads and they can't find a common story
and you know religion plays a very
important part in it like you have the
Holy Rock in Jerusalem Under the Dome of
the of the Rock and both Jews and
Muslims says God gave this holy Rock to
us you know Palestinian philosopher
sarin NBA wrote a few years ago that
Jews and Muslims armed with nuclear
weapons are about to wage one of the
biggest massacres of human beings ever
over a rock this is not an objective
necessity you don't really have to fight
over this rock you fight over it because
in your mind it becomes something far
more important than food or territory or
or even your life and yet here we are
today generation after generation
fighting the same struggle especially in
the context of this conflict that's the
big question are we condemned to repeat
the same tragedy over and over over
again with just different Decor every
time or do we have some choice about it
and as a historian I believe in the
possibility of change history is change
things do change you look for instance
at um you know for me one of the best
measures of the level of violence in the
world is State budgets because budgets
are very you know downto Earth cold you
it's not like poetry it's where does the
money go for most of History in most
polies kingdoms Empires city states at
least 50% of the state budget went to
the
military if you look at the big Wars of
the 20th century in the first world war
average military expenditure in the UK
was 50% of the government budget by the
second world war it was 70% of the
budget went to the military in the early
21st century the average expenditure on
the military throughout the world taking
all countries together went down to
7% whereas Health Care was about
10% um it's amazing I mean we take it
for granted many people say in the UK
that the healthc care budget is bigger
than the military budget but this has
been a remarkable
achievement uh proving the ability to
change human behavior and it's now in
danger we now see military budgets all
over the world skyrocketing again well
is that about power and control control
because you want to be the most powerful
state with the biggest military with the
biggest Force because even here there's
criticism around that why military
budget is is low why isn't it being
increased we are being told that if we
were to go to war with Russia for
example in a decade or so we would lose
as a as a state because the military
isn't being invested in so you have two
types of of of kind of magical circles
happening you can have a vicious circle
that Russia increases its military
budget and invades Ukraine so European
nations obviously feel obliged to
increase their budget then more Nations
feel threatened they also increase their
budgets and everybody increased their
budgets until we return to a situation
where everywhere around the world looks
like Russia which already before the war
in Ukraine Putin in in preparation for
The Invasion Putin increased military
spending in Russia to about 30% of the
budget and now this is happening in more
and more countries because they are fed
to if you don't do it you are exposed
and this leads to this kind of vicious
circle and we go back to the Middle Ages
basically but there is an opposite Trend
which functioned in in previous decades
that if some countries lower their
military expenditure their neighbors
feel more secure they also lower their
military expenditure they can spend more
on healthare and education
the uh uh citizens of these countries
they get used to the situation when the
money is spent on nurses and schools not
on tanks and life improves they like it
and more people want to live like that
so you have these two possibilities of
magical circles and uh we have to get
trapped in the positive Circle at
present we are being sucked into the
negative Circle so we have a situation
if we look at uh the situation in the
Middle East where October 7 a horrific
event that took place 1200 people were
left dead and it shocked Israel it
shocked Israel on so many levels we now
have a situation where almost 30,000
Palestinians have been killed in total
they say 100,000 Palestinians have been
killed injured missing do you think that
the response was the right response as a
historian as someone who understands the
pain of of Israel as well and the
tragedy of the Palestinians the the
biggest piece of the puzzle is missing
is what is the aim of the war you know
the most basic maxim of military Theory
going back to car kovitz is war is the
continuation of politics by other means
you cannot understand anything about a
war unless you know what are its
political aims and we have many cases in
history when people think in strictly
military turns they win every battle and
they lose the war completely like we saw
it in the American invasion of Iraq the
Americans won every significant military
engagement and they completely lost the
war the big winner of the Iraq War was
Iran that came out of the war as the
hegemonic power in the Middle East and
much of what is happening right now also
to Israel and to the Palestinians the
war between Israel and Hamas the
threatened war with kisala it all goes
back to some extent to Iranian hegemony
in the Middle East which was brought
about by the American Military
Victory so um what I would ask of course
also my government is what are you
trying to achieve without knowing the
political aim of a war you cannot know
anything really about it especially not
if it's if it's if it's just
if it is uh um leading in in a positive
way or not and as a historian I can also
say that Justice is a very very slippery
term because you always have especially
in war both sides have a very different
conception of Justice because the
historical narrative is completely
different if you go back to the 7th of
October or you go back thousands of
years Israelis and Palestinians tell a
very different hisorical narrative and
therefore they understand Justice
differently and there is no way really
to reconcile it you will never get them
to agree the key is to shift the
discussion from a discussion about
Justice to a discussion about peace you
can't agree what Justice is but peace is
much more objective because are people
being killed or not that's an objective
thing but they've tried over decades to
talk about peace and it's failed so they
have to so we have to try again I mean
you know um what's the alternative to
just go on fighting
forever um yes I mean all attempts
previously made to do to make peace in
the Middle East at least between Israel
and Palestinians failed um what can you
do except try
again what keeps you up at night with
this conflict what do you fear
most personally I feel most for really
the soul of my country of my nation in
Israel at the moment there is really a
battle for the soul of the Israel Nation
between um patriotism on the one side
and ideas of Jewish Supremacy on the
other
side um the current government it has
Elements which are anti-zionist are
against the secular nationalism that
built uh Israel and are in favor of
Jewish Supremacy and you know there is a
very important line in
the for for every
nation between
patriotism and feelings of Supremacy to
be a patriot is to acknowledge the
uniqueness of your n of your nation and
every nation is unique there is nothing
wrong about feeling that my nation is
unique and it has a a a right to uh
develop its unique traditions and
cultures and so forth and it doesn't
prevent you from recognizing the
uniqueness of other nations and their
rights to live in in dignity and
prosperity the danger comes when you
start thinking that my nation is not
just unique is supreme and it has rights
which override the ride of anybody else
and now there is a huge Titanic struggle
within Israel between these two forces
and this is my greatest spirit I it's
I'm I'm not from Kamas it's not from kah
it's not from Iran it's from this inner
struggle that uh uh we might lose this
struggle and then you know that well one
of the objectives at the very beginning
of this conflict was that eliminating
Hamas there are many now coming out at
the beginning of the conflict but now
also now saying saying that Hamas is a
political movement you can't kill an
ideology do you fear that something more
violent more brutal will come out of
this given we have 177,000 orphans now
as a result of this conflict MH well I
think that talking about eliminated
Hamas is is unrealistic uh the more
realistic goal is to eliminate the
military capabilities of
Kamas um again if you think about what
are the aims of the war so from the
perspective of Hamas on the 7th of
October the aim was very clear on the
7th of October Israel was quite close to
signing a historical peace treaty with
Saudi Arabia which was meant to
normalize relations between Israel and
much of the Arab world and also to
potentially restart the Israeli
Palestinian peace process this was a
deadly threat to Hamas which objects to
any Prospect of peace and normalization
between Israel and the Palestinians and
the Arab world the aim of the October
7th attack was to derail to foil this
attempt and to seow seeds of hatred that
will prevent any chance for peace years
in the future and unfortunately Hamas is
a is achieving its its political aims I
think that given the ideology of Hamas
which many times stated that it sees no
potential for any peaceful solution that
it only accepts it's the complete
destruction of Israel then as long as
Hamas retains its military capabilities
every time even if we have a ceasefire
now and we start reconciling and
rebuilding and down the the road two
years five years again we we we come
close to a peace deal they will again
strike so uh I think that uh again you
can't eliminate Hamas but it is
necessary to eliminate at least most of
its military capabilities of course as
you say um something even worse might
might replace it so it's not enough to
eliminate the military capabilities of
Kamas we have to struggle and I'm
talking about when we say we Israel to
present the Palestinians with a better
future than what Hamas is offering and a
better future means to have dignified
lives in there in the Palestinian
Homeland I spoke to someone who said who
for a long time was negotiating
with both sides and he said you need to
be able to write the other side's
victory speech H that's a good point you
know that but here we are today the
Prime Minister prime minister Benjamin
Netanyahu is saying even if the hostages
are released we will go into Rafa do you
think that this is the right sort of
objective and and plan and I just don't
know what's going on in his mind I'm
definitely not his press officer and
cannot explain or or or defend his
thinking I still haven't heard from him
a clear statement about what are the
long-term political aims of the war like
how do you envision our region the
Middle East two years five years down
the
line um and Wars political conflicts
there are these kinds of you know like
children's riddles like these mazes that
you have to find your way inside a maze
every child learns at a certain point
that you have to start from the end like
you have to start from the objective
from the door out of the Maze and then
go walk your way backwards to where you
are now how do we get there so unless
you tell me how you envision the Region
5 years 10 years down the line there is
no way that we can get there and he's
refusing to to to say what is his vision
I sometimes suspect he has no
vision at the beginning of this
conversation you talked about your
children's book and you said for the
first time in your knowledge and
understanding of history people don't
know what the future looks like there is
uncertainty in a deep sense I mean it's
not just political uncertainty also in
the Middle Ages nobody knows if you live
in England in 1024 you don't know maybe
next year the Vikings invade nobody can
predict that but you do know a lot of
things that are not going to change in
the next 10 or 50 or 100 years like the
basic economic structure and the skills
you need to teach your kids you need to
teach them how to uh uh um ride a horse
and bake bread and grow wheat uh because
these are the kind of things people will
still be doing in 50 years now we look
to the Future even 10 or 20 years of the
future nobody has any idea how the job
market would look like because there
things like AI because of AI which means
that we have no idea what skills to
teach children today in school
because you know you say okay let's
teach them how to code computers in 20
years maybe AI is doing all the coding
so you don't need that um and of course
the repercussions for the social and
political system are enormous so this is
a time of of such uncertainty and also
in other fields like you know uh 100
years ago so romantic life didn't change
very much between the generations so if
you go on your first date you can get
good advice from your grandfather or
grandmother but today just to understand
the setting of the Romantic
relationships online it's so different
from what it was 20 or not to say 50
years ago but it's becoming more and
more difficult for adults to understand
the world that the kids have to struggle
with every day which again deprives the
kids of something which was always there
the good advice of of the
adults so then what advice would you
give the future
Generations um the most important skills
are has to do with emotional
intelligence that the only thing we know
about the future is that it will be very
different from the present and it will
change at a very very rapid pace so
people will need a a very strong
psychological resilience to keep
changing and keep learning throughout
their lives we are used traditionally to
a situation when as a as a child or a
teenager you learn a lot you you change
you invent yourself basically and then
as life proceeds you can kind of calm
down I mean you always learn new things
but you mostly uh rely on the skills the
world view the personality that you
acquired in in your younger years this
is not a good plan for the 21st century
the pace of change will be so rapid that
even when you are 40 50 60 if you want
to stay relevant you will have to
reinvent yourself in radical ways to
relearn things uh again and again and
this will create tremendous
psychological stress because change is
always
stressful um and we need to prepare for
it not just as individuals but also as
societies that I think governments need
to think very carefully about investing
a lot more resources in building uh um
um for infrastructure for mental
health um because otherwise I I I don't
know if people are really built to deal
with such a level of of of stress
throughout their lives y Harari thank
you so much for your time thank
you
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