Breaking Myths: What Really Fuels Cancer Growth, with Dr. Fung and Dr. Seyfried | TCP Ep. 71
Summary
TLDRThe Target Cancer podcast features Dr. Jason Fung and Dr. Thomas C. Fried discussing the metabolic theory of cancer, challenging the traditional genetic mutation theory. They argue that cancer is a mitochondrial metabolic disease fueled by glucose and glutamine, and stress the importance of diet and lifestyle interventions. The doctors also critique the focus on genetic mutations in cancer treatment, advocating for a shift towards metabolic therapy to improve patient outcomes.
Takeaways
- 🧬 The somatic mutation theory of cancer is questioned in the podcast, with guests arguing that it's not genetics but mitochondrial metabolism that's at the core of cancer development.
- 🍬 Insulin and sugar levels are highlighted as significant factors in cancer pathogenesis, with high levels potentially leading to faster cancer growth.
- 🔒 The National Cancer Institute's serious consideration of the somatic mutation theory is criticized for hindering progress in cancer treatment.
- 🌱 The role of diet, obesity, and inflammation in cancer development is emphasized, with evidence suggesting that environmental factors play a more significant role than genetic mutations.
- 🔝 Obesity is becoming a leading risk factor for cancer, similar to how smoking was in the past, and is associated with insulin and glucose issues.
- 🏃♂️ Exercise is mentioned as a way to lower blood sugar and insulin levels, which can help reduce the energy available for cancer cells to grow.
- 🧪 The fermentation metabolism of cancer cells, which relies on glucose and glutamine, is identified as a key target for cancer therapy.
- 💊 There is a call to re-evaluate the standard of care in cancer treatment, advocating for flexibility to adapt to new findings and a shift towards metabolic therapy.
- 🌐 The cancer establishment and current research focus on genetic mutations are criticized for not addressing the root causes of cancer, leading to suboptimal outcomes.
- 🔬 The importance of understanding the bioenergetics of cancer cells is stressed, as it provides a more promising pathway for treatment than the current genetic-focused approach.
Q & A
What is the main issue discussed in the podcast regarding cancer treatment?
-The main issue discussed is the reliance on somatic mutation theories for cancer treatment, which the speakers argue is misguided and has led to a lack of progress in treating cancer effectively.
Why do the podcast guests believe that the National Cancer Institute is misguided in their approach?
-The guests argue that the National Cancer Institute takes the somatic mutation theory too seriously, focusing on genetic mutations as the primary cause of cancer and overlooking the significant role of diet, obesity, inflammation, and metabolism.
What is the role of insulin and sugar levels in cancer pathogenesis as discussed in the podcast?
-Insulin and sugar levels are discussed as significant factors in cancer pathogenesis because high levels can cause tumors to grow faster. The嘉宾主张降低血糖和限制胰岛素水平,以减缓癌症生长。
How does obesity relate to cancer risk according to the podcast?
-Obesity is presented as a major risk factor for cancer, potentially replacing smoking as the leading cause. It contributes to inflammation and high insulin levels, which can stimulate cancer cell growth.
What is the 'trunk mutations' theory mentioned in the podcast?
-The 'trunk mutations' theory refers to the idea that certain fundamental metabolic changes, rather than just genetic mutations, are the root causes of cancer development.
Why do the speakers argue against the focus on genetic mutations in cancer treatment?
-The speakers argue that the focus on genetic mutations distracts from the more significant environmental and metabolic factors that contribute to cancer growth and progression.
What is the significance of the Warburg effect mentioned in the discussion?
-The Warburg effect is significant because it highlights how cancer cells predominantly use fermentation (glycolysis) rather than respiration for energy production, even in the presence of oxygen.
How does the podcast discuss the role of diet in cancer?
-The podcast emphasizes the importance of diet in cancer development, suggesting that dietary changes can either contribute to or help prevent and treat cancer by affecting insulin, glucose levels, and overall metabolism.
What is the proposed strategy for cancer treatment by the guests?
-The proposed strategy is to focus on metabolic therapy that targets the root causes of cancer, such as glucose and glutamine metabolism, rather than solely relying on genetic mutation targeting.
Why do the speakers believe that current cancer treatments are not effective?
-The speakers believe that current treatments are not effective because they are based on an incorrect understanding of cancer as a genetic disease rather than a metabolic disorder, leading to treatments that do not address the core issues.
What is the importance of mitochondrial function in cancer as discussed in the podcast?
-Mitochondrial function is crucial in the discussion because disruptions in mitochondrial function lead to fermentation metabolism, which is a hallmark of cancer cells and a key driver of unregulated cell growth.
Outlines
🤔 Critique of Somatic Mutation Theory
The speaker expresses skepticism about the Somatic Mutation Theory, questioning its validity given the numerous issues associated with it. They are surprised that it's still taken seriously, especially by the National Cancer Institute. The podcast introduces two guests, Dr. Jason Fung and Dr. Thomas C. Frieden, to discuss the impact of diet, nutrition, and metabolism on cancer's pathogenesis and treatment. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of considering factors beyond genetics, such as insulin and sugar levels, in cancer development.
🔍 The Overlooked Role of Metabolism in Cancer
In this paragraph, the conversation delves into the role of metabolism in cancer development. The speakers discuss how obesity and inflammation are linked to cancer and how insulin acts as a growth factor, stimulating cancer cells. They criticize the focus on targeted genetic mutations in cancer treatment while neglecting the metabolic processes that fundamentally drive cancer growth. The discussion highlights the need to address the root causes of cancer, such as glucose and insulin levels, rather than just targeting symptoms.
🌿 The Environmental Factors of Cancer
The speakers emphasize the significant impact of environmental factors, particularly diet and obesity, on cancer risk. They argue that these factors outweigh genetic mutations in contributing to cancer and criticize the medical community's focus on genetics. The paragraph includes a discussion of how changes in diet and lifestyle have led to increased cancer rates, especially among younger people. The speakers also touch on the role of mitochondria in cancer cell energy production and the potential for limiting glucose and insulin to control cancer growth.
🧬 Challenging the Somatic Mutation Theory
This section critiques the Somatic Mutation Theory of cancer, suggesting that it is not the mutations themselves but the cellular environment and metabolism that drive cancer. The speakers discuss how mutations are a downstream effect of mitochondrial dysfunction and how targeting these mutations in treatment has not been as effective as hoped. They argue for a shift in focus towards the bioenergetics of cancer cells and how they obtain energy.
🔬 The Centrality of Mitochondrial Metabolism in Cancer
The discussion focuses on the importance of mitochondrial metabolism in cancer cells. The speakers explain how disruptions in mitochondrial function lead to fermentation metabolism, which is prevalent in cancer. They discuss the accumulation of lactic and succinic acid as a result of this metabolism and how it protects cancer cells. The paragraph also addresses the idea that cancer cells revert to ancient, inefficient energy production methods due to mitochondrial dysfunction.
🏥 The Failure of Current Cancer Treatment Paradigms
This section criticizes current cancer treatment approaches that focus on genetic mutations rather than the metabolic processes of cancer cells. The speakers argue that these treatments are not effective because they do not address the fundamental issue of how cancer cells obtain energy. They discuss the need for a shift in thinking towards metabolic therapies that target glucose and glutamine, which are essential for cancer cell growth.
🌟 The Promise of Bioenergetic Therapies for Cancer
The speakers discuss the potential of bioenergetic therapies that target the metabolic processes of cancer cells. They highlight the importance of understanding how cancer cells generate energy and how this knowledge can be used to develop more effective treatments. The paragraph includes a discussion of how certain metabolic interventions can make cancer cells more susceptible to radiation and chemotherapy.
🛡️ The Protective Role of Acidification in Cancer
This section discusses how the acidification of the tumor microenvironment, due to fermentation metabolism, protects cancer cells from various treatments. The speakers explain that this acidification prevents the effectiveness of radiation, chemotherapy, and immunotherapy. They argue that targeting glucose and glutamine metabolism could reduce acidification and improve treatment outcomes.
🌿 The Impact of Diet and Lifestyle on Cancer
The discussion turns to the impact of diet and lifestyle on cancer, emphasizing the need to manage cancer as a metabolic disorder. The speakers suggest that dietary changes, such as calorie restriction and ketogenic diets, can help control cancer growth by limiting the availability of glucose and glutamine. They also touch on the importance of maintaining a healthy microbiome for overall health and cancer prevention.
🔬 The Cellular Biology of Cancer Metastasis
This section delves into the cellular biology of cancer metastasis, explaining how certain cells within a tumor acquire the ability to invade and spread. The speakers discuss the role of macrophages and the fusion of different cell types in creating metastatic cells. They also address the challenges in treating cancer due to the heterogeneous nature of tumors and the presence of various cell types with different characteristics.
🌐 The Need for a Paradigm Shift in Cancer Research
The final paragraph discusses the need for a paradigm shift in cancer research, moving away from the somatic mutation theory towards a focus on mitochondrial metabolism. The speakers express frustration with the current state of cancer research and treatment, arguing that a new approach is necessary to improve patient outcomes. They emphasize the importance of understanding cancer as a metabolic disease and the potential for metabolic therapies to transform cancer treatment.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Somatic Mutation Theory
💡Mitochondrial Metabolism
💡Fermentation Metabolism
💡Cancer as a Bioenergetic Disorder
💡Metabolic Therapy
💡Insulin
💡Obesity
💡Glucose
💡Ketogenic Diet
💡Acidification
💡Macrophages
Highlights
Critique of sematic mutation theories in cancer research.
Discussion on the influence of diet, nutrition, and metabolism on cancer pathogenesis.
Insulin identified as a growth factor that can stimulate cancer cell growth.
Importance of considering environmental factors beyond genetics in cancer development.
The impact of obesity and inflammation on cancer risk, potentially surpassing that of smoking.
The role of glucose and insulin in untreated cancer growth.
The potential for metabolic activity agents to control cancer pathogenesis.
The misconception among oncologists about the role of glucose in cancer.
The need for a shift in thinking about cancer as an environmental and not just a genetic disease.
World Health Organization's stance on obesity-associated cancers.
The increase in young people getting cancer and its link to obesity and diet changes.
The role of mitochondrial function in cancer cell energy production and its implications for treatment.
The impact of diet on cancer development, supported by global population studies.
The theory that cancer is a mitochondrial metabolic disease rather than purely genetic.
The potential for metabolic therapy to improve cancer treatment outcomes.
The economic factors that may contribute to the persistence of certain cancer treatment paradigms.
The role of the microbiome in cancer development and treatment.
The potential of caloric restriction and ketogenic diets in managing cancer.
The importance of understanding cancer as a metabolic disorder for effective treatment.
Transcripts
we spend so much time on you know
sematic mutation theories which is such
a bad Theory there's so much wrong with
it that I'm I'm surprised anybody still
takes it seriously unfortunately the
National Cancer Institute takes it very
very
serious that's why we have no progress
that's what I thought
too welcome to Target cancer podcast
this is Dr Sun janer I'm going to skip
the intro because I am so excited and
humbled
that we have two of our guests that
everyone's asked for uh multiple times
because of this culture shift on
thinking about what is causing cancer
and can we do better and what does diet
and nutrition and Metabolism have to do
with its pathogenesis how we treat it
when it
recurs and if you're thinking that I'm
going to say this yes it's true I have
Dr Jason fun and Dr Thomas C freed today
to discuss the things that we've been
hearing in the news you know and seeing
the data about cancer becoming uh you
know a diagnosis younger it's it's in
higher volume and if you have not
listened to these podcasts before highly
recommend doing so probably before this
podcast because it has really opened my
mind up as an oncologist on not only
what is causing it but what should we be
considering while we are treating it uh
something called trunco mutations root
causes so without any further Ado Jason
Thomas thank you so much for being here
thanks for me y yeah thank you very much
for having me also we're in a world
right now of this glp1 stuff and
everyone's talking about zic and
bringing you know body fat reduction and
obesity down and we've talked a lot
about how obesity and inflammation you
know in the past shows data on causing
cancer but also uh in Jason's podcast
especially about how insulin is a growth
factor and kind of stimulates these
cells to say grow grow grow cancer is
unregulated growth I'd love to start on
talking about
in an untreated cancer um how does
insulin and sugar levels play a role in
its you know pathogenesis quickly and
then also do you think that the
pathogenesis will go down when we have
agents that are able to better control
our metabolic activity um well no I
think these are important issues because
I I what we're seeing now I think um
this obesity issue is uh now seems to be
replacing smoking as the uh as a major
cause of uh linkage too let's put his
way a risk factor and uh for cancer and
and you're right there's an insulin
issue uh there's a glucose issue and um
uh the the systemic
inflammation in many people that are
obese and let's not let's not include
every every obese person on the planet
in the same basket we know there are
some obese people that are actually very
very very healthy they have unbelievably
healthy blood work and all this kind of
stuff but that doesn't is that's the
exception rather than the norm um and if
your insulin is high and your blood
sugar is high and you have uh a tumor uh
it will generally cause that to grow
faster and and I think that's uh pretty
much obvious to those of us who
understand this issue but apparently not
obvious to a majority or I don't want to
say majority but to many
oncologists who have never heard that
that glucose has anything to do uh with
cancer and often encourage their
patients to drink infel or sweet things
to maintain weight um uh which is just
the opposite the advice that you would
want to give someone so why how is it
possible uh that uh people treating uh
cancer would not know that glucose and
insulin levels uh elevation
are provocative to driving the
disregulated cell growth so Sanjay you
are an oncologist you are the voice of
your profession how do you explain this
because I know Jason has spent a lot of
time on many podcasts telling us about
this and apparently uh they might not
have heard him either so I'm not really
I'm not really sure to how to explain
this give me an ex you tell you should
ask you that question what do you think
I I think part of I to be honest I don't
I don't have an explanation other than
you do internal medicine and then you go
on oncology so internal medicine it's
not necessarily A pre-cancer Internal
Medicine training we just learn about
you know the consequence on diabetes and
how that has to do with you know
vascular stuff and kidney disease and
stroke da d da endothelial stuff and
then you just kind of jump into the
treatment of cancer which is you know
predominantly immune therapy
chemotherapy replication cycle and then
now this whole excitement about targeted
mutations uh or targeted therapies that
both of you have kind of taken you you
you spoiled the the joy of for me
because you know at first I was like
great we have all these targets and if
it's showing blueberries we you attack
blueberries rather than trying to hack
away the whole limb because that causes
toxicity and you're like no SJ both of
you hack away the limb or go ahead and
go at the trunk of the tree but do so
without necessarily poison because what
we forget is the trunk of the tree
actually requires things to grow right
it has to be uh watered and it has to
have some kind of fertilized ground
that's why hydrangeas never do well in
my house because I can't even keep uh
the constituents to make that thing grow
which further Downstream are blueberries
strawberries and I'm saying that as if
it's a positive thing but in these cases
the reason that the cancer is growing
we're chasing this all in targeted
therapy world and and and oncologists
have a lot of pressure to make sure
they're up to date with the standard of
care of assessing way down on the limb
what different things are growing uh and
making sure that they're adhering and
and buying the molecular test so that we
can make sure the therapy attacks it um
and and that's why I think this these
conversations are so important we are
not it is not in our repertoire or in
nccn to really think about are these all
just Downstream problems because the the
ground in which the trunk and The Roots
exist are continuing to be watered and
part of it is because we believe well
all ground has to be watered so you
can't really influence too much the
glucose and Insulin which is obviously
wrong yeah I mean the thing is that you
get all these sort of exciting things
about oh there's this mutation and this
mutation and we're going to Target this
and this so I think what happens is that
you get the idea that cancer is caused
by these genetic mutations and it's a
genetic disease and it's just bad luck
and and that feeds in but it's
completely untrue because when you step
back and you say okay well what causes
cancer and they they've done studies on
this what is the biggest uh attributable
population attributable risk to cancer
and smoking's up there around 30% but
what everybody forgets is that way way
up there as Tommy you're saying diet and
obesity is also about 30% and it
completely dwarfs everything like you
know radon and you know chemicals and
chemical carcinogens and stuff right
it's it's a huge huge risk factor and
that's all
environmental um not genetic right so
you have to look at the environment and
then you look at what you talked about
earlier which is that hey we're getting
young people getting tons of cancer and
if it was a genetic disease you'd say
you know the
genetic you know the genetic uh makeup
of the population has not changed in the
last 10 years um other than through
immigration right but it that's not what
we're talking about so what is it that
has changed and of course diets have
changed obesity has changed and the
entire thing so so I think what has
happened is because of the advances in
the genetic you know Technologies and
the treatment you get this idea that
it's 90% genes and 10% but it's not it's
like you know 80% environmental a lot
has to do with your diet and and and
weight and and we know this because the
World Health Organization has 13
different cancers that are obesity
Associated uh one of them for example is
coloral and now you see this shift
younger people are getting col rectal
cancers and bad ones too well why well
not so hard to understand if obesity is
a related Factor then there's more
obesity so therefore you're getting more
you're getting more obesity younger
right kids are getting obese in their
teens now so therefore you're getting
more just like you have more type 2
diabetes uh in young people now same
thing right pediatric clinics used to be
90% uh type 1 and 10% type two now it's
like a 50/50 type one and type two right
you get like 15 year olds with type two
diabetes so so this whole thing is it it
does require this whole shift in
thinking that hey this is not just a
genetic disease that's not to say that
genes have nothing to do with it because
it's not to it's not to say that these
targeted therapies aren't good because
they are good obviously it spend a lot
of money on it but you have when you're
thinking about how the these things
develop you have to think about what is
important so one of the things obviously
is glucose and Insulin then and it's
like you look at breast cancer and it's
been known for like 50 years okay at
least that breast tissue doesn't really
have a lot of insulin receptors why
would it right it doesn't need it but
breast cancer has like piles of insulin
receptors well why well because if it
has lots of insulin receptors then get L
and you have lots of insulin then you
can open up the glute four you know
Channel pour in the glucose into this
into this cancerous cell and it can grow
because we know again that it uses
glucose to grow I mean warberg talked
about that ages ago so it's like okay
well if that's important then limiting
glucose and limiting insulin is
important in the development of colal
and breast cancer which which which for
some reason just gets lost in this whole
it's all about genes it's all about
genes it's all about genes so it gets so
blind insided into this one sort of you
know view that forget about everything
else that's gone on and even when you
look at what causes cancer like genetic
factors um you know and they've they've
done a big study uh on this it's still a
relatively small factor in um in in
causation of cancer it's it's it's like
5 to 10% versus 30 for diet yeah and you
both you both mentioned this in your
podcast about how that was pretty much
nailed on the head when we transplanted
people from other parts of the world
because we said wow they don't get
cancer at all they don't get colon
cancer they don't get this whatever the
cancer was were like they have some
golden you know tp53 that can't be hurt
like or or eight of them like an
elephant does and and then when we
brought them here or the diets that were
American were introduced to where they
were all of a sudden they started having
canc like like and I'm saying it Loosely
but literally transplanted them to study
they were eating American food and and
had a much richer different nature food
and C started to appear I mean that in
itself was very uh memorable that both
of you mentioned yeah remember the story
of um Burkett right so Burkett was uh he
did a lot of missionary work that's what
they called him back then in the 40s and
50s right so I think he Ireland or
somewhere and he went to Africa and then
he's like hey you know white people are
getting all this color rectal cancer but
the Africans don't they get like zero
colon cancer but then when you take
those African people and you westernize
them they start getting Coline cancer
right and that was observed like in the
50s 40s and 50s so obviously the diet
was a huge Factor now he thought it was
all about fiber and maybe it wasn't all
about fiber it may have been all these
other things you know the refined foods
and all that stuff they didn't have the
same chemicals and stuff but probably
the stimulating the hyperinsulinemia the
glucose um at least played a role it but
same thing right you take and and same
thing in um in the north and in in the
Arctic you had all these in the 40s you
had people going up into the Arctic
researchers going up there why don't
these native uh peoples get cancer
there's zero cancer then of course you
yes they start to westernize them and
give them sugar and refined flour and
stuff and they start getting weight gain
and all this type two diabetes hey their
rates of cancer are actually worse than
ours now right so it's like well
obviously it had to do with diet right
that's that's the key factor and when
what you all one that's the cause and
two which y both mention in the podcast
Jason you talked about and I've never
been the same since then about dcis and
are we overtreating because we know to
your point cancer you know needs fuel
and oncologists still Community
oncologist roll their eyes when they
hear well doesn't it fuel cancer but you
need fuel to grow cancer is unregular
cell growth and you're like are we
overtreating dcis when we could have
modifications to
possibly temperate or not give it the
the gas that needs to go uphill and then
let our immune system you know do what
it does and then Dr cpri you took that a
step further and said okay even if it's
invasive can we limit the fuel or or
nutritional sources to hard types that
need something else electric cars need
the charge station that's why I don't
have one I probably need one and do a
lot of driving I have to use gas and you
were like okay we know that one of those
if we the Tes can't be charged it can
take away electricity but that half and
half you're like I want to be able to
take on something additional and and
went into these kind of uh amino acids
or other kind of Escape uh means to be
able to process quote unquote Fuel and
energy uh due to their mitochondrial
changes so if we could talk about that
for a second mitochondria how that gets
changed and influenced uh with diet uh
sugar insulin and then and that strategy
Dr CP that you were talking about yeah
well I I think to follow up on this uh
with respect to the genes and also to
segue into what you what you just said
um we have to look at the theory that's
driving the the approach which is the
somatic mutation theory of cancer now
for those who would think cancer is a
genetic disease they would say and argue
that that that smoking and obesity and
inflammation induce somatic mutations in
the DNA so it's the abnormal yeah you're
you're you're you have an abnormal diet
you have obesity is infl
inflammatory uh and inflammation uh can
lead to uh DNA repair problems and and
these kinds of things and therefore even
though we're seeing a linkage with diet
earlier onset it's still considered a
genetic disease because if we look at
the tissue itself we see uh all kinds of
different
mutations in in the tissue uh even even
the young people when you when you look
at the the tissue from the young people
or the Africans going from one or the
anuit going from one diet to another
when you look at their cancer it's
loaded with all different kinds of
mutations so they say well that see it's
a somatic mutation as opposed to
germline mutations which uh like Jason
said you know it's it's it's the
germline so what we have done is we have
explained uh where all those mutations
and how they link to disregulated cell
growth um the somatic mutations are
coming from this from the mitochondria
itself when the this
inflammation uh coming from obesity and
all these other things or from smoking
or from virus infections or whatever uh
they lead to reactive oxygen species in
the cells
r r are carcinogenic and mutagenic so
they lead to the mutations that you see
in the DNA they break proteins they am
dist disrupt lipids um all of these
things uh lead to uh problems in the
energy utilization and homeostatic state
within within within the cell but every
every cell in someone's tumor has a
different constellation of mutations
from any other cell there's no uh all my
tumor cells have can be identified by
having a singular kind of mutation
that's not true and we've seen that over
and over again but what every cell in
that tumor does share is a dependency on
a fermentation
metabolism um which is in one part the
glucose is fermented to lactic acid and
this is what we see in all major cancers
uh uh an accumulation of lactic acid and
the second thing we is accumulation of
suic acid which is coming from amino
acid fermentation uh when the
mitochondria become defective the cell
has to fall back and getting energy from
some someplace else uh and that energy
has to come from fermentation it's
called substrate level phosphorilation
and in the cytoplasm it's through the
glycolysis pathway and in the
mitochondria it's through the
glutaminolysis pathway D and glutamine
is the most abundant Amino so we have
shown that glutamine is actually
fermented it's a fermented it's a
ferment mented amino acid um now the
mutations are accumulating in the cancer
uh different from every other cell in
the tumor so but but according to the
sematic mutation Theory we'll try to
Target some of those mutations in the
tumor cell with the hope of of reducing
uh and and you often don't find complete
cures from targeting mutations mainly
because you have other cells in there
that may not have those mutations and
therefore they bypass the targeting and
the same time now we're realizing that
many of these driver mutations which are
different P passenger mutations were the
mutations that were thought to be the
ones responsible for triggering the
disregulated cell growth now when you
try to Target driver mutations new
information says and shows clearly from
numerous studies that normal cells in
our body and our tissues have these same
driver mutations that do not lead that
are not associated with disregulated
cell
so when you use an immunotherapy a
targeted approach to managing cancer yes
you may slaughter a large number of the
tumor cells but but then you have
promiscuity and you start destroying
your liver and kidneys and some other
organs that also may have that same M uh
epitope from the mutation and therefore
it's no longer what we consider a precis
a t a precise targeting it's a imprecise
targeting and what we do know is that in
every single cell cancer cell and and
tissue that we have found they are all
have abnormalities number structure and
function of mitochondria and I our most
recent paper shows that all major
cancers accumulate cytoplasmic lipid
drops in the cytoplasm and those
cytoplasmic lipid drops triglyceride
accumulation is there to protect the
cell from Death because they can't use
the fatty acids so they store them in
these vacul in the in this in the
cytoplasm and that's all due to
disregulated mitochondrial function so
if the mitochondria can't respire they
ferment but fatty acids if their fatty
acids or go into the mitochondria
they'll create tremendous oxygen
radicals and kill the cell so to protect
the cell they store the fatty acids as
lipid drops and what we did is we went
through all major human Cancers and we
compared mitochondria structure and
function with cytoplasmic lipid drops
every major cancer has those two
characteristics and they're all
fermenting and they're all dependent on
glucose and glutamine regardless of what
the mutations happen to be all germ line
mutations p53 Leaf manyi braco one all
of these every one of those genes
damages number instruction function of
mitochondria leading to a fermentation
metabolism so whether it's in the germal
line and the mutations the cyto the
somatic mutations are secondary
Downstream effects and germline
mutations cause disruption of
mitochondria function uh leading to
disregulated cell growth as the result
of the product of the inherited Gene
none of them are 100% penetrant meaning
they can only be secondary risk factors
we have never found an inherited
mutation in the genome that is
associated with 100% the highest is Lea
manyi which is about 80% but 20% of the
people that have never developed the
cancer so they're all considered
secondary risk factors just would be a
viral infection smoking obesity any of
these they're all secondary risk factors
the primary risk factor for the origin
of cancer is a chronic disruption of
oxidative phosphorilation coupled with a
trans compensatory fermentation driven
by amino acid and glucose fermentation
processes exactly and I appreciate you
explaining that so granularly uh Tom
Jason when we talk about insulin and
obviously it being a growth factor is
there a relationship on
hyperinsulinemia I'm asking this you
know for for a non-medical person and
mitochondrial health and what are some
strategies to either do or avoid when it
comes to thinking about and should we be
thinking about preservation of
mitochondrial Health when it comes to
metabolic disregulation and
hyperinsulinemia and then even now I'm
thinking you know increase acidity with
dialysis patients and and and their
impaired ability to be able to uh you
know take care of that regulation that
could potentially cause a metabolic
injury to uh to the
mitochondria should we be seeing
increased cancer levels in people that
have impaired renal function um it's not
the acidity so much but I mean for sure
I mean to get back to the in I I think
they work at slightly different levels
because insulin is a sort of a hormonal
level whereas Myra is a cellular level
so they're not they're not directly
interactive but I always think it's
funny because it points to the
importance of looking at the sort of
bioenergetics of cancer which is very
striking because we spend so much time
on youo sematic mutation theories which
is such a bad Theory like honestly it's
it's you know there's so much wrong with
it that I'm I'm surprised anybody still
takes it seriously Jason unfortunately
the National Cancer Institute takes it
very very
seriously that's why we have no progress
that's what I thought too it's
unbelievable I agree with you 100%
understand how Ral Minds can believe
that and and yet uh when you go to the
National Cancer is to
website 100 different genetic
unbelievable don't those guys ever read
the literature this what I learn what I
learned in the 90s in medical school was
this two hit hypothesis that's what
they're talking about back then right so
you have it's not a genetic disease like
polycystic kidney disease or CLE cell
you don't have one hit you have can get
one hit then a second hit and that's
fine that was the theory that I was
taught and probably a lot of people grew
up on but it's go so completely wrong
because there are you know you look at
the average you know cancer uh and he
did this I think Bert vogelstein did a
study and he looked at took cancers and
said how many mutations are there right
and it wasn't one it wasn't two it
wasn't three it wasn't four the average
breast cancer I think had like 50 and
you know the some of the the brain
cancers that you see in young people
there are like 200 mutations right so
it's like okay that's ridiculous right
50 50 different genetic changes and you
still think this is a viable Theory like
how are you going to do that give them
50 different agents to attack all these
these different mutations can't do it on
the other hand you look at bioenergetics
and every single cancer cell I mean not
every but almost all share the same
difficulty described ages ago by warberg
right that hey there's a real difference
here in the way they generate energy
fermentation versus respiration and why
is that and everybody says well you know
with the sematic mutation Theory it's
just a quirky problem that happens it's
just a mistake it's like what so every
single cancer in history makes the same
mistake and you think it's just a coinky
dink right like what are you talking
about clearly this is at the heart of
the the cancer is the bio energy etics
whether you're talking about
mitochondrial Health which is important
and it does influence it so things like
autophagy and mitophagy and stuff
influence it uh you know uh so when you
do talk about intermittent fasting and
stuff it does influence it but insulin
and glucose you're still talking about
the same thing bioenergetics right how
do cells get energy and I I also think
that it's always funny to me that they
say okay so these these cells produce
lactic acid these cancer cells produce
lactic acid and it's like okay and if
that's just another big coinky Dink and
it has no relevance it's like I don't
think so if every single cancer cell is
producing lactic acid it must be because
lactic acid is good for the cancer cell
right so basically I think the cancer
cell produces it I think there's you
know they they say okay it's not
generating as much energy because
oxidative phosphorilation generates way
more ATP per glucose right than than
than fermentation then than um but
that's only a problem if you don't have
enough glucose if you have a lot of
glucose it doesn't matter how many ATP
you're generating per glucose because
you have a ton of glucose sitting out
there so again thinking about it that
way you say well okay then why doesn't
the cancer if if the cancer can choose
either one then it must be producing
lactic acid for a reason and I think
it's a very good reason the lactic acid
protects the cancer cell cells it breaks
down you know the cell membrane so it
allows it to expand it protects it
against attack from other you know
immune cells and other cells that want
to destroy it right because you know
your own body has a natural immunity
natural killer cells and stuff that try
to attack it so the lactic acid must be
beneficial and we need to look at why
it's beneficial so you can attack it but
nobody looks at this nobody looks at
this these sort of really logical sort
to me logical sort of questions and
answers about how we can do this they're
all stuck in this it's all about the
genes it's like so you so you basically
you can't explain any of what's happened
to these different populations right
when when you move a Japanese person
from Japan to America right their risk
of certain cancers goes up tenfold and
you know other cancers gastric cancer
went down tfold well you can explain the
gastric cancer right that was H pylori
probably right so it's like okay well
you're talking about environmental
factors what's the increase in risk of
say breast cancer right and and so the
whole idea of of genetics and sematic
mutation Theory it's it's just like the
sematic mutation like there's so much
wrong with it even in the New York Times
there was an article a few years ago
talking about how they took
esophageal uh cells from sort of uh they
they took normal people non-cancerous
people took these cells and and just
looked at them and compared it to cancer
patients like Cancers and they had all
the same genetic mutation this is the
same it wasn't it wasn't any different
so if normal people are getting
mutations but not getting cancer then
what's the difference right and that's
where I think I think um you know
mitochondrial health is probably the
underlying cellular sort of mechanism
and then on a hormonal level which is a
little bit higher because you're talking
about hormones not individual self then
I think you're talking about hey what's
what's what's the energetics what's the
glucose what's the insulin what's and
also things like glutamine can uh can be
important and and and triglycerides as
well so I mean I'm sitting here thinking
like should I yeah I'm like I'm like
there' be a study on you know a high
volume presentation like just springly a
little sodium bicar po Wes day P I'm
sure you're thinking like North kidney
are going to fix that that's not going
to do anything but the point is these
are things that you want to think about
and consider and I think one good
example that I believe Utah had
mentioned I you Jason uh forgive me for
not remembering but there just so much
wealth of information about cardiac
tissue like that is a nice way that I've
been explaining since talking to you
about about how it's like oh this is a
prim primary heart tumor right that in
itself Clues you in that the heart is
the one tissue in your body that cannot
have fatigue so you could lift all day
in the gym you could do a 10 pound a 50
lb you could do more with the 10
eventually
lactic acid builds up and you're just
not able to Contin however the heart is
the only thing and we don't talk about
that enough that doesn't you know have
that same phenomenon and is able to
sustain for the entirety of your Decades
of life God willing and also ironically
just doesn't have seem to be that common
of an organ to have a primary you know
cancer type in those on those myocytes
yeah that's true and and that and
neurons in the brain e you in order in
order in order to have cancer as warber
said you have to have cell that can
compensate oxos inefficiency with
fermentation and uh cardiac meiocytes
and neurons uh can't do that for very
long um they can do it over a short
period of time if you were to have a
heart attack or or one of these kinds of
things uh but when you have a heart
attack you generally die from massive
brain Dam failure um even if you can get
the person's heart back because the
neurons are dead uh they can sustain a
massive upregulation of fer ation a jolt
for a short period of time and you see
massive amounts of lactic acid uh being
produced um but it can't sustain it
can't sustain that one one thing that's
very interesting is when people do have
heart attacks uh the two things that you
see massively accumulate in the blood uh
are lactic acid and succinic acid this
is well known and the succinic acid
accumulates from glutamine fermentation
in the mitochondria it's called
mitochondrial substrate level
phosphorilation
the cancer cells are locked into this
fermentation they they can't get out of
it because their mitochondria are
inefficient when you accumulate the
lactic acid in the mic you call the
acidification that's that's the that's
the result of mitochondrial inefficiency
so lactic acid lactic acid soyic acid
accumulation in the micro environment is
the direct result of mitochondrial
chronic mitochondrial
insufficiency that
acidification is due to the fermentation
of glucose and glutamine together it
also makes your immunotherapy's
radiation therapy and a lot of other
therapies ineffective they can't break
through this
acidification so question is how do you
reduce the acidification you have to
take away the glucose and the glutamine
um we have not yet been able to find any
canc cell that can survive in the
absence of glucose and glutamine they
can't grow on fatty acids they can't
grow on Ketone bodies we can't find
anything uh that will in in other words
if you take glucose and glutamine and
grow them on fatty acids Ketone bodies
anything you want they die um and how do
we know that you know what we did we
took cancer cells from a range of human
and mouse
cancers and we grew them in Saline just
salt water just salt solution no nothing
and we timed them with a how long did it
take for them to die Mouse cells die
quick because they have a high basil
metabolic rate human cells took actually
few days for them to completely die just
in Saline Solution can you believe it
then we add stuff back one after another
what perks them up uh what allows them
to grow and survive again and we did all
20 amino acids we looked at a bunch of
carbohydrates and stuff and we found
that it was glucose and glutamine were
the only two major fuels that allowed
those tumor cells to perk back up if you
throw a little glutamine they get a
little bit of burst you put glucose and
glut to me together and it's it's
unbelievable um and you have a few
vitamins in there and a few other things
so clearly we have interrogated the
cancer cells to know precisely what they
need to grow in a disregulated way and
it's the two products uh uh driving the
fermentation metabolism in these cells
making this not a complicated disease at
all and as Jason said the all the major
cancers have the same problem it's not
like brain is different from bladder
different from they they all can't live
without glucose and gluty so why are we
focusing on thousands of different gene
mutations when we're Downstream effects
and they have almost nothing to do with
the disregulated Cil
growth now why doesn't somebody tell the
NCI this how is it possible that those
guys sitting at the National Cancer
Institute have no clue they sit there
doing out hundreds of millions of
dollars in Grant support for things that
and we got 1,700 people people a day
dying from cancer in the United States
that's 70 an hour about 70 an hour and
everybody's chasing gene mutations that
have almost nothing irrelevant to the
nature of problem I think tell me what
is wrong what is wrong like telling on
growing I'm just kidding I'm not gonna
put that original original Gene
treatments were so good you know the um
you know the GAC and the uh you know the
herself in and stuff they were really
good right so then everybody thought
this is the answer I remember this
because I I was doing going through
medical school at the time it was like
oh this is great we're just going to
find okay this Gene and treat it with
this drug which was like okay you have
CML we get dreu with GC because that's
the G mutation was so logical right and
I think everybody got seduced by that
that they forget that after those couple
of drugs the first couple drugs there's
been like zero drugs in the last you
know what 20 years now that have made
that kind of a difference right
everything else these all targeted gene
mutation they're not transformative
right if you think about the way LC
transformed uh the treatment of cmml it
was like night and day the thing turned
on a dime right from a bad disease to
like nothing at all practically right it
was a pill you just took it and that you
know so that's why it was so seductive
that the story was so seductive the
treatment was so seductive that
everybody keeps looking but if you
haven't found it in 20 years and you
know how much money has gone into cancer
research well it probably ain't there
those were like the way outliers of the
genetic Paradigm and they're just not
true for most cancers but the initial
promise was so alluring that people are
still going down this pathway despite
the fact that there's just way better
you know this whole evolutionary uh
thought that it's an evolutionary
disease I mean changes everything right
it it it changes how you think about the
disease it changes how you should
approach the disease bioenergetics like
thinking about bioenergetics because
it's so core to all cancers it just
changes then like then you can start
asking the questions how can you affect
it right because we don't have great
treatments right people say can you
starve cancers by just changing your
diet that's pretty it's pretty broad
right because if you think about cancer
CIA the cancer really takes what it
wants from your body right because when
you lose weight what you see in the
normal non-cancerous is that you see
that the uh as you lose weight your
metabolic rate goes down because you
have less and less energy stored right
you don't see that in canceri it's a
totally different disease the cancer
just takes whatever it wants it will
completely catabolize your your muscles
it'll burn out everything you have
that's why these people get so skinny
it's a different disease it's not just
weight loss that's why people who say
well you should eat sugar and stuff so
you gain weight it's like okay this
cancer is taking all your amino acids
breaking down your muscles and you're
gaining fat cells does not a good
strategy and you're actually not even
getting that much of it so that whole
idea of oh you should eat more have some
candy because you're losing weight
that's not it doesn't actually pass any
kind of logical thing like that's third
GR thinking right like we're supposed to
be doctors right it's like you're
operating at a level that's way too low
right because cancer CIA is not just
weight loss it has nothing to do with
normal weight loss it's these cancers
that are sucking all your energy out no
matter what you do so when you see um
you know people losing weight and
they're 80 pounds they're metabolic rate
has not gone down at all their metabolic
rate should have gone from 2,000
calories a day to like 12 100 a day
because that's what happens in every
other person who tries to lose weight
that's the whole problem with losing
weight right is that when you reduce
your calor intake your metabolic rate
goes down because the body is trying to
match it that doesn't happen in cancer
totally different disease so again
pointing to the fact that bioenergetics
like how this cancer generates energy
which is you know gets back to the power
you know the the energy Supply which is
mitochondria and stuff is sort of core
to the entire problem right and
obviously we don't have all the answers
but at least it's a much more promising
pathway than going on and on about
genetics and same as Tom I'm like I'm
always stunned when I go to any of these
websites and it's a genetic disease it's
like the first sentence they say it's
like goodness I know it's bad and and I
know hard stops Tom I'm let you finish
that out I'm sorry I want to ask on that
point from both of you and your thought
P please sorry um speaking on that
if somebody had a malignancy stage two
stage three or it's just like a strong
family history and really worried what
are some more granular things to
optimize obviously like the insulin
levels mitochondrial injury Downstream
in the way of antioxidants and berries
like even conceptually what are the
things why does working out help what
are the things we can do to protect the
much more rooted cause of what seems to
be the you know elicitor of all these
mutations in the plasms um well let me
just follow up on Jason's CIA issue
which is really a core issue in cancer
um and he's right the the the cancer uh
will take your muscles the muscles begin
to lose their uh composition and what
happens the amino acids uh will go back
into the bloodstream and go to the liver
and the liver will use it to make uh
through gluconeogenesis you can actually
make sugar from the dissolved amino
acids from the from the muscles and the
glutamine itself is just a a pure gold
fuel uh for the tumor and our work has
shown that all metastatic cancers are uh
of maccrage origin a maccrage is part of
our immune our immune cell um they are
the only cells that can actually move in
in and that one of the few they're part
of the immune cells move in and out of
tissues um so you have two different
kinds of cancer cells you have the stem
cells that grow like crazy uh and then
you have the metastatic cells and they
all of macro every every major human
cancer that we have studied has maccrage
characteristics and they are the cells
that are already programmed to enter and
ex exit the bloodstream this
intravasation extravasation their
immunosuppression um and they they they
they'll lead to the cic phenotype and
getting their energy from dissolving
muscles and and Jason it's very
interesting when when you're in CIA your
insulin is high when you go under
calorie restriction therapeutic fasting
your insulin and glucose go down and
it's like just it's just a blown out
opposite thing you're you're you're
right so we have to look at this as a
bioenergetic problem uh linked
intrinsically to to the mitochondria and
and when you say well how do we manage
well if we know that the cells can't
grow without fermentation fuels that are
driving the disregulated growth then the
strategy to manage cancer would be to
simultanously Target the two fuels that
are leading to this disregulated growth
and they can't use fatty acids and
ketones as I've said they store them
they don't use them so uh when we look
at calorie restricted ketogenic diets or
ketogenic metabolic therapy we lower the
blood sugar and this's another very
important thing people always say oh we
can never lower sugar enough to starve
the tumor that's not true because when
you lower the blood sugar what are the
organs that take in the available sugar
it's the muscle and there you go back to
your exercise again muscle does not
share sugar muscle builds glycogen
because if the Beast is evolutionarily
if the if the bear is chasing you you
must run away that comes from the energy
if your muscle shares glucose with other
organs and the Bears you have no energy
to run so the muscle takes glucose out
of the blood stores it as glycogen for
the muscle use the brain is the biggest
consumer of glucose in our body so what
little glucose is left when you lower
blood sugar the brain's going to get it
who's going to get it last the tumor
cell gets the last so you have to
realize you're marginalizing their
ability to survive and then when you hit
them with the GL the glutamine targeting
on the other end which has to be done
very strategically and carefully you Mar
you completely destroy the capability of
this tumor to grow you reduce the
angiogenesis you reduce the inflammation
and gradually your body power to heal
will eventually go after and dissolve
those tumor cells themselves and use
that fuel for the energy for the rest of
the body it's unbelievable it's called
un autolytic cannibalism where the body
will actually turn on the tumor and use
the fuels for itself everything is
related to bioenergetics if you know why
and we and then we take poor patients
and we treat them with all these
terrible toxic poisons reducing the our
own ability of the body to do what I
just said you compromise the body's
ability to heal itself by the very
treatment she using to manage the
disease makes absolutely no sense now
I'm not throwing out immunotherapies
because they're based on the sematic
mutation Theory they're based on the so
based on an incorrect Theory but they
could be a powerful tool if used
correctly if you can use a metabolic
approach to shrink the tumor down to a
few cells that are still alive they must
share something in common because
they've survived together as a group
they may now be appropriately destroyed
by a targeted immunotherapy but not at
the beginning because at the beginning
you have all this hodge podge like Jay
said there just a total hodge podge of
stuff you may get some people to respond
well but you also create
hyperprogressive disease not knowing the
tool that you're use making the situa a
bad situation much worse so I I think we
just have to know how to use all the
tools that we have in the appropriate
way with our understanding that this is
fundamentally a metabolic disorder a
bioenergetic disorder that we have to
use the entire body's resources together
with our understanding with the
foundational principle of what's going
on inside the neoplastic cell itself
once we understand this the solution to
the cancer problem problem will be
obvious to everybody and you're going to
see drops in death rates like you can't
imagine but as long as the National
Cancer Institute thinks it's a genetic
disease yeah ain't G to get any progress
It's just that simple and the other
thing that was if you go back and look
at the NCI history you find in
1984 they invited the pharmaceutical
industry to help the scientists of the
national cancerous who find cures to
cancer that was putting the fox in the
an house how's that working out for us
so far
right we have more cancer today let me
tell you something else that smoking
thing in in the early days of the smoke
anti-smoking campaign get alone they
they in 1991 they had this no more smoke
because you second sand smoke was
bothering people so we stopped smoking
now what they say is all the advances
we've made since 1991 this giant 33%
drop was because we stopped smoking the
the the issue is is that had we not
smoked we would have 33% more cancer
deaths today than we that we actually
have so it's all smoking mirrors if you
want if you want to know what's going
on it's unbelievable prevention was the
only thing that really gave us some grip
on the whole thing it wasn't targeting
gene mutations or any of that crazy
stuff that that seems to be uh the
subject of millions of dollars uh thrown
at these insane grants that are having
no significant impact on survivability
for cancer with a majority of people
it's as I said it's the greatest tragedy
in the history of Medicine what we've
had happen with this cancer fias yeah I
I mean I agree I have to leave in a
minute but I I I completely agree with
you I think that you know using you know
understanding about glucose and amino
acids and then trying to do sort of more
fat-based therapies I to me it's it's
the only way but but to me it's a very
sort
of you know ham-handed sort of way to
approach things and I think that if we
had more research then we could develop
much more sort of targeted ways like I
know Tomia talked about hyperbaric
oxygen and stuff and I think there's
still something in there uh but it just
hasn't been fleshed out and nobody's
thinking about these things that such a
promising
pathway you know that that that needs
the research because we're we're dealing
with very primitive tools when we're
just trying to sort of do this diet
thing compared to you know oh we're
targeting this Gene you get we have so
much money poured into the genes that we
are so specific treatments of genes and
yet we can't we know nothing and can't
do anything about the bioenergetics
which sort of um does it so yeah I mean
such a lost opportunity so well that's
that's predominantly because of the
theory that's driving the industry the
sematic mutation theory is the is the
theory driving research and development
in the academic and pharmaceutical
Industries and therefore if cancer is
not a genetic disease it's a
mitochondrial metabolic disorder you're
never going to achieve Optimum outcome
for the majority of patients the theory
is wrong just as the geocentric theory
of the solar system was not correct
until you put the sun in the center of
the solar system all the planet
movements made sense when as soon as you
put the mitochondria in the center of
the cancer problem you're going to see
major drip
drops sorry about that it's great
talking to you I appreciate it when you
mentioned the point about the acidity
around the tumor or the lactic acid and
how radiation isn't as effective I'm
really almost frustrated because I've
never heard the next step we've hear
about radio resistant or radio
refractory tumors and they become very
challenging especially when they're in a
bad stubborn place can we talk about
that a little bit more on how is there a
way that we could potentially make a
radio classically or traditionally radio
refractory uh tumor more susceptible to
radiation delivery number one and number
two um what like how do we how do we do
that well I mean it's very clear what's
responsible for the um acidification of
the micro environment in impeding uh
radiation therapy and immunotherapy for
that matter and chemotherapy for that
matter it's this
acidification um what what what happens
when you're fermenting uh there's a
pglycoprotein on the surface of of
cancer cells that as soon as the drugs
come in they pump them right out so and
that's driven by a fermentation
metabolism and the and causing the
acidification so what is that as I said
we have interrogated these cancer cells
and it's the availability to convert
glucose into lactic acid through the
glycolysis
cytoplasmic gly in the in the cytopl in
the in the cytoplasma glycolysis pathway
dumping out lactic acid and also
glutamine uh dumping out succinic acid
so those are acids where the protons
come out along with the with the lactate
the succinate and you have acidified the
micro environment thereby serving it's
it's not purposeful in the sense the
cancer cells don't do this as a designed
mechanism to provide they're doing it as
as a as a response to a failure in
oxidative energy metabolism but it also
prevents other therapies from working so
if you were able to significantly reduce
glucose and Elevate Ketone bodies um you
then make these tumors extremely
vulnerable to radiation uh therapy you
make them far more vulnerable to
immunotherapies and some and you can use
half the dosage of chemotherapies and
still have them have tremendous
therapeutic benefit so again you have to
to remove that protection that Shield of
acidification where is it coming from
it's coming from the fermentation of two
fuels glucose and glutamine simultaneous
targeting of glucose and glutamine while
under nutritional ketosis will allow
radiation and all these other therapies
to work infinitely
better case period it's no question
about that because everybody knows the
acidification is blocking how do you get
rid of the acidification where is it
coming from it's coming from the
fermentation of two fuels only now
Sanjay listen to this no one anywhere is
doing what I just said they want to test
drugs in clinical trials double blind
crossover One Drug this guy gets it then
we're going to that cannot be done that
kind of a a trial must be booted out
those trials have been Monumental
failures uh for a long period of time
obviously we had 1,700 people a day
dying from cancer in the country I mean
this is a tragedy why because we're
testing drugs in the wrong way it's a
diet drug combination that you're
looking for to make the tumors
vulnerable the ultimate goal ultimate
goal in all this is how do we keep
cancer patients alive longer with a
higher quality of life and it's
metabolic therapy man that's what's
going to do it and you got to Target
these fuels and then you're going to
find all these things that didn't work
all of a sudden are going to work
dramatically well
under a different kind of it so we're
not throwing anybody out of the boat
we're just telling them to reposition
where you're sitting you're you might
not have been as important as you
thought but we still need what you're
going to do so uh um so this is the
thing you're going to find dramatic I
have no doubt about it but what I'm
talking seems to be uh too many there
too many issues to stand in the way
especially the theory when the theory is
incorrect the outome will never be
optimal and that's seems like this
podcast and what I hope to achieve even
in the next six months for myself but
meaning like on transition of where I
can put my manand withd that that will
hopefully really catalyze this because I
know you have made it your mission the
man that is Thomas C freed has you have
you have spent now decades on trying to
debunk this thing and I I cannot express
my deep admiration for you for that well
we we we need guys like you you you're
going to be the guy you're the guy in
the in the trenches that's actually
going to implement the the Paradigm
change because we we have when we go to
oncologists and they never heard that
glucose has any role in cancer and diet
has no relevant and that we're going to
use all these expensive drugs we have to
re-educate the oncology Community to
know that the disorder that they thought
was a genetic disease is actually a
mitochondrial metabolic disease well Tom
Tom I worry I worry it's deeper than
that I worry that
it's ultimately economic and
capitalistic issue which I know you said
but I really deeply think well then then
then then we have to give every cancer
patient that comes into the clinic has
to be given a little brochure to say we
thank them for their disease because
it's a very powerful uh driver of the of
the medic I know nobody's gonna say that
nobody's going to tell cancer patients
we're going to thank them because their
disease is supporting a massively
profitable industry um I think it should
be patient outcome first and
profitability second not not the reverse
but how do we do that we have to have
entrepreneurs who come into the picture
and figure out how we can uh generate uh
a comparable profits from something that
actually works and helps the patient I
don't think people are opposed to paying
a large amount of money for something
that actually works uh but it's paying a
lot of money that causes Financial
toxicity and death th this is this is
this is an a program that's not going to
work uh eventually people are going to
wise up and say we can't we can't do
this anymore it's actually threat threat
to National Security for crying out loud
I honestly think and I've never said
this in my life before I honestly think
in a weird way if you have this
beautiful big torch of passion and and
and Science and and understanding you
have lit one for me that I now feel as
like my primary Mission I've never felt
in my core like what is the primary
Mission I just like do what the univers
tells me I feel like I want to I want to
help uh everything that You' done to
really go full force on this very
important issue um I really I'm going
say that in a second I'm going to ask
one thing real quick to put back right
when you went on that about the aid V
and I'm afraid to ask this question but
I'm really afraid to ask this question
but is that why and I could be wrong
liposarcomas are generally very chemor
refractory and even like radiation's not
great uh and is pancreatic cancer which
we know is called classically a stubborn
tumor is that also an uh uh
environmental we know they hijack the
immune system and hijack you know
extracellular Matrix stuff but do you
think there's a role on the a acidity of
the micro environment for these way more
stubborn tumors that's reducing our our
whole yeah well certainly for pancreatic
cancer and and gasto and some of the
lung C well they're all like you know
driven um with with a a macras component
fuse hybridization and these kinds of
things um making them making them
exceptionally uh dependent on both
glucose and glutamine the
liposarcomas uh on the other hand
they're not nearly as aggressive uh as
some of these other more um uh what we
call malignant kinds of things and I've
always been interested in liposarcomas
they they kind of they can come from
certain kinds of mitochondrial
abnormalities I have I I put that
section in my book where you have
certain kinds of impacts on
mitochondrial F you get some some kinds
of these postar and they can be a
to to manage they just hang
on just just hack them away maybe
surgery might be the only but but it's
like the Cockroach
ofy uh they have an interesting slightly
different kind of metabolism from some
of the more invasive malignant kinds um
but that's kind of the interest of of
Cell Biology and uh you know I become
less less concerned about a liposarcoma
than I become concerned by a pancreatic
or a glol blastoma these kinds of tumors
you know these are the ones that and the
ones that are lung cancer and breast
cancer the ones that are killing most of
us is cholon cancers and bladder and
this kind of thing um but uh uh yeah but
I mean I I did dress the liposarcoma a
little bit in my in my canceris a
mitochondrial metabolic disease paper
but I I didn't do a deep dive on it and
yeah it's just unique because things
don't work on it and that usually
happens when things are slow because
tools we use on rep the funny thing when
you talk about liposarcoma is my my
sister many years ago had a had a dog
with a liposarcoma and we try to use our
metabolic therapy on it uh you know what
was U it was you know the the dog was
given calorie restricted food usually it
works on on a lot of different kinds of
malignant cancer and and what happened
was that you had a liposarcoma on this
on this dog it was attached and we put
him on metabolic therapy then we found
out it was a dog attached to a lightos
saroma
oh my gosh you know it worked on the dog
but it didn't work on the lifeo sarom
but but uh that was an interesting uh n
of one uh but but you're right I I think
we we we need to figure that out a
little bit more I'm not I'm not claiming
that we have a solution it's just so
unque yeah compared to other we study a
little bit more we'll figure it out real
quick it's funny you said that about
dogs I had uh a gentleman from uh
Harvard yesterday uh Dr San Lim and they
found a workaround around their AI
enabled you know uh tumor sensitivity
workup stuff they do on live cells and
they started with dogs one because you
it kind of bypassed all of this uh you
know difficulty on that's another whole
another podcast on on even proving
something its utility because of of all
the red tape but at least to blood
cancers dogs apparently have a much
faster um response to treatments like
the chemotherapy anyway I didn't know if
there was a metabolic reason for that or
if they just proliferate more or what
but apparently it's it's it's far more
prompt and brisk uh than what we have to
wait for with a couple of Cycles in
humans for things like Hotchkins and
other things yeah well dogs you know I
published that paper on the mass cell
tumor on the dog's face published in in
I think it was frontiers of nutrition or
something and uh that was the only thing
we actually cured um I mean we keep
people alive very long but who knows if
they're cured or not uh but but the dog
had complete resolution of the mass cell
tumor using a metabolic therapy um and I
have all the details in the paper itself
it's unbelievable the dog died from old
age from heart disease so the cancer
never can't that's the only way you know
you're cured if you live really old and
you die from something other than the
cancer then you can say oh I was Cur
somebody say I cured my cancer when I
died from but that's okay if you're 98
years old Dro dead of a heart attack
when you had bladder cancer when you're
40 you know obviously metabolic therapy
tour kept you alive for that long to die
from something else I mean we're all
we're all terminal in one way or another
that we just want to we just don't want
to make it too premat we don't want it
to be premature um but but like and I
like I like I like that that's what you
say you're like look I'm not claiming to
cure cancers but what I can tell you is
we can have them in a deep durable
control just keep them quote unquote in
check for a long time like that's what
that's our guy from England Pablo Kelly
he's had three three uh debulking for
his
Blasta I idh1 and and and he's he's just
celebrating 10 years of survival now
he's married two kids he never had that
uh but his cancer is there he's not Ted
he's just has it and it grows slow and
he gets into de bulk periodic uh what do
you have to have a cure do you want to
just live longer and have a somewhat of
a normal life I mean be thankful man if
you did standard of care you would have
been dead nine years
ago right right and I mean it's I'm
laughing and I'm I know that person I'm
the person that's doing this you know
like I'm the one it's like Gallow humor
for Christ's sake you know
it's yes nail it um gosh I I I really if
I can say I have a bromance love for
someone it is 100% you lastly if if you
have the time so sparing what I believe
is is also understated got microbiome
health and its intimate relationship
with the dexterity of the immune system
because I do believe having these narrow
diet of just mac and cheese and chicken
nuggets without the kind of
heterogeneous stuff when it comes to
different fruits and fibers not the
fiber itself but but fiber RIS things
that have uh introduce kind of a
dexterity to your immune system short of
that on a cellular metabolic level when
it comes to optimizing the health of our
you know mitochondria and and cellular
injury I hope anyone can appreciate one
in your discussions the role and why
we've been saying antioxidants for a
long time
right you do support like that supports
what you're saying oh we you know we you
know it helps radical uh Ros injury Etc
T like working out what is that it helps
cardiovascular you know
processes what are the things that make
theoretical Sense on someone that is
trying to avoid a recurrence or prevent
cancer to optimize this mitochondrial
metabolic health that you were talking
about well that's you know the late uh
Richard V from NIH I had many
discussions with him and and George
kahill from the diabet josin diabetes
center and when we look at what what
prevents reactive ox or oxidative stress
uh when you say antioxidant uh
capabilities while water only fasting uh
uh and and these kinds of things when
the body switches from glucose to Ketone
bodies they're powerfully antioxidant um
they actually improve the Delta G Prime
of ATP hydrolysis within the
mitochondria itself which means you're
for every for every breath of oxygen for
every mole of oxygen you take in you
actually get more efficient energy uh
with minimal reactive Ox species so this
is don't forget we as a species evolved
to always been in a sem a semi-state of
nutritional ketosis where cancer was
unheard of uh well I not going to say we
knew what was going on in the
Paleolithic period but we certainly know
from modern modern humans live according
to traditional ways they're generally in
in in semi ketosis that's powerfully
antioxidant so um and you can supplement
that with your berries and things like
this and certain things like that so
again it's never one thing it's a
cocktail of things all go together to
give you Ma maximum metabolic efficiency
maximum homeostatic efficiency it's like
a it's like a hypo oxidant State almost
that's a word it's it's not yeah you can
kind of touch it every now and then like
pull out weed here and there in your in
your in your house with antioxidants
that's a Bist that you're talking about
just like ketotic State a ktic state can
double over as a homonym to a hypo
oxidant State yes yes and you know the
other thing people are always talking
about is their microbiome they love this
to soon as just mentioned microbioma you
know has keep our microbiome healthy and
then when you get cancer you Jim know
you know what chemo does to your
microbiome God Almighty what are you
talking about your microbiome and then
you take some toxic chemical and you
can't get off the pot and kill it when
are your microbiome is screaming out
please no more no
boss right no it's true I think that's
the factor it makes no damn sense you're
always talking about then you give
somebody this radiation and chemo and
and it knocks the crap out literally
next to your
microb I mean when you think of the
absurdity of stuff that we do to human
beings in the name of trying to help
them it just makes no sense at all but
um yeah there's so many different uh
ways you can you can look at this and
our our goal has always been how do we
manage a chronic CA disease like cancer
in a logical way based upon the hard
science that we know is there and and
and all I have done is looked at the
science I'm trained biochemist and
geneticist we go back and you look and
and all of a sudden you can see all this
thing and how wonderful it works and
doesn't hurt people and then you go out
you're looking say everybody what are
they doing out in the real world what
are you guys doing to these poor cancer
patients it's like they exist in two
different worlds it's like the
biochemists and the phds do something in
some other country with a different
passport and somehow it's like get that
and you get you trickle into another
country and they see it off and then
they take what was done in this country
when it's the clinical stuff now and
that's the problem is there is just not
a nice uh you know inner stitching of
that world it's more of a handoff and I
think that's where things are lost
there's nobody in the middle that's
actually kind of putting these things
together like you are yeah well that's
the whole thing our work is directly
translational better better than any
anyone else's that we can find uh and
the NIH oh you got to do translational
work and then they build all these crazy
models genetically engineered cells and
genetically engineered hosts and you get
all these things and it makes it it's
just doesn't make a lot of sense
everything has to be done with natural
natural natural natural as close to the
real world as possible will give you the
better the better uh uh outcomes uh and
you know translational and and and
almost none of this stuff is
translational uh when you look at it um
and they say oh you know you cure these
mice all the time and you go to the
clinic and you never get the well
they're not using the right the right uh
tools they're not using the right models
they're getting it like like like I said
in my in my in my in my book uh the uh
when you when you bait when you bait the
um the mouse trap with a picture of a
piece of cheese what you catch is a
picture of a mouse you don't really get
the you don't really see the real what's
really happening yeah and what we're
doing is we've just got you know
pictures of cheese everywhere in our in
our uh in our preclinical model systems
I mean the cheese is like the tumor
micro environment we know that's
important it seems to be a problem and
you're like yes and this is this is the
cellular level and the kind of
communication we know why the micro
environment is screwed up we just don't
do anything about it and and we're
making it worse in most of the case in
most cases so again you have to have a
re-evaluation of what's going on you you
really need to I don't know what the
hell they're doing down at the National
Cancer Institute they they keep backs
slapping and coming up with all this
kind of crazy stuff and and and people
are dying out there um uh they're
miserable uh suffering that I can't even
I get all these emails dozens of dozens
I sometimes I have to walk away I say
what are we doing to these poor people
um we're not treating them the way we
should be treating them when you say are
and we can you just tell us anyone
that's listening that that that is
driving and can't like ghoul you
what do you mean by us and we and our
well I would say it's the it's the
establishment what is the cancer
establishment doing no I mean for you
when you say what we're doing and what
our focus is what what our our focus is
to manage are uh what well the people
that understand maybe maybe one of you
maybe you'll become one of these guys in
the I'm I I think this podcast did it
for me actually understand what cancer
is and how it should be treated yeah uh
and then and then not being allowed to
do that because of a of a a standard of
care written in Granite and standards of
care should have never been written in
Granite uh they have to be flexible as
new information comes along we should be
able to modify the standard of care you
know when we do clinical trials you you
have the standard of Care standard care
with metabolic therapy and metabolic
therapy by itself why is the missing
control group never allowed to be done
this is this is the the the crazy stuff
so anyway I I have no long I don't know
how long it's going to take to break
down the walls uh but I'll tell you one
thing people want to live and their
their motivation to want to live and
know that there's an alternative to what
we're doing uh may may help change the
system and I and I'm hoping for that
Dred I just I really hope I would love
to shake your hand one day I hope like
that's something you find were you live
in Foxboro uh yeah I live in Foxboro I'm
right now right now I'm at the
University at Boston College gotcha I
just I really respect so much what
you're doing have you met GRE Greg Simon
uh no I haven't I I don't think the
first cancer moonshot director yeah if
you time one day I would love to
introduce yall too I honestly think
y'all would be best friends like it's
like it's unbelievable how much I like
he was the first cancer moonshot uh
director under Obama and um and uh Gore
and y'all are just so unbelievably
similar you appreciate the NCI shadiness
and and y'all are just very you know
globally just kind of mission driven
he's a cancer patient he's actually not
a scientist he used to get like a rock
star I believe it or not but he's he's
deeply respect I think once the once the
theory changes and you realize that it's
a mitochondrial metabolic disease then
everything will begin to change until
that theory is and and and all the
textbooks say it's a genetic disease so
you're you're just perpetuating the the
the lack of knowledge on the part of the
industry uh all the as you said when you
went to medical school you never heard
that cancer was a was anything other
than a genetic disease so clearly the
education in the medical schools have to
change as well it's a big mission but
anyway I'm I'm here I'm not going
anywhere um we have a lot of stuff going
and all of our work is supported by
philanthropy and private foundations so
uh not the nation they they did it when
you do certain things they're very very
valuable to support research there's no
question about it you know National
Institutes of Health has been a great
resource for the nation um but right now
in the cancer field and the cancer thing
it's it's just not working and and and I
think it can work once they realize the
theory the theory that they're working
under uh is incorrect and they once they
switch the theories then you're going to
see massive changes in the outcome and
Improvement for patient uh survival when
we talk about like contiguous or cancers
that like in lung on smoker or in
Colon to Jason's point about the double
hit to me there it kind of makes sense
because it's like if you have a tubo
villis adoma or an environment where
there was one portion that's invasive
and the other is not that's the one
challenge I can think about what it
relates to the switch or a mutation
because what is it that Mak something
that's screwed up actually become
invasive cancer versus pre yeah that's
what we we in my book on the origin of
metastatic in my paper this is another
thing that's very I published the paper
uh in 2013 I believe u on the origin of
metastatic cancer which talks about
exactly what you just mentioned why some
cells are not invasive where other cells
are invasive and that comes from the
fusion hybridization of of our immune
cells coming in cancer is viewed as by
the body as an unhealed wound and and it
it sends out singings cyto and factors
that cause the immune system to come in
and facilitate wound healing and those
cells are largely macras and they throw
out growth factors in cyto but it
stimulates the the stem cells to grow
stem cells are not in invasive they grow
like crazy but don't have the
capabilities of metastasizing
intravasation extravasation this kind of
thing but when the macras is fused
together with themselves and with one of
these stem cells you now have a cell
that's not only disregulated in in cell
growth but also has the genetic
apparatus to spread around and invade in
in a different way because when when
macrofagos come out of your bloodstream
as monocytes they come right through the
tissue to heal the wound right they're
in they're uh uh intravis intravasation
extravasation all this is macras
behavior this exactly what metastatic
cancer cells but stems and one sub part
of the tumor can't do that because
there's mostly stem cells so you can
have very this is why when you're
looking at a cancer you have a hodg
podge of different kinds of cells in
that you have normal Max you have Fus
Max you have stem cells you have a whole
big what they call Cellular heterogen Hy
blasts yeah they're all in there and and
and the ones that blast out and become
metastatic every one of them has has
macro characteristics I published all
this I I showed everything and that
paper has been cited over 1,300 times
now listen to this they never read the
paper I put I only said in there
metastasis is responsible for most
cancer deaths and that's the only reason
they site the paper without without ever
reading what I actually said this is
amazing so the the folks in the field
aren't reading the literat are just
they're just taking little chunks of
what this so I call it broken science
it's a problem where we have everything
there to explain it but people either
are not reading it or don't understand
it so it's really yeah metastasis why
you have certain parts of the tumor uh
they grow fast but they don't spread the
other part little thing spreads all over
the place this is all due to the cell
biology that exists inside that um uh
organ a tumor is kind of an organ it's
own blood system Ed yeah yeah yeah yeah
so that cell that cell is the cancer
cell or the even pre cancer cell is a
thing that eventually actually puts out
the signaling to make that stem cell
around it differentiate yeah it's not
differenti EnV yeah they well and don't
forget when you interrogate the
metabolism of the of the stem cell and
the metastatic cell they're they're both
fermenting the the problem is the stem
cell does not have the genetic apparatus
to allow it to pen local Invasion
intravasation extra these are all very
sophisticated biological processes this
just doesn't happen by chance and the
thing the the field calls it the E
epithelial meenal trans transition which
is complete nonsense but yet that's
based on the sematic mut mutation theory
if you ever sit down and look at what
the EMT me is have in that paper it's
complete nonsense and yet everybody is
brainwashed into thinking about this um
so yeah it's a metastatic cancer is a m
is a maccrage disorder with with macr
fases fermenting with that and their
fused hybrid hybrids has been shown many
many times so you know what the
metastatic cell is driven heavily by
glucose and glutamine you know how to
kill metastatic cells just because you
understand their biology yeah stem cells
grow like crazy too they'll kill you
from Mass Effect by by just being a big
a big bringing in more immune cells it's
a as I wrote it's a it's a it's a
situation of of escalating biological
chaos all these different cells are
doing what they're doing in the wrong
context so biology is now they're all
cells are screaming at each other in
different ways trying to figure out
what's going on and it's all uh things
that were programmed into cells but done
in a completely wrong context yeah this
is the first time ever of two years
doing this podcast every two weeks that
I finally made a connection to what
Michael Levan Dr Michael L I know if you
know him yes I know him well yeah he's
doing what you're doing basically but
not metabolic but the on the electric
bioelectric kind of you know concept
this is the first time I've finally been
able to make a connction ction because
when you said the tomare you know I
guess I knew but I didn't know until you
said it like this is basically like a
wound and it's trying to heal the wound
and and and that entire process one can
now conceive Michael 11's podcast on
saying all that's happening is the
cancer cell is actually just a regular
cell that's doing what it supposed to do
which all the cells have been doing
since we were like
protozoans uh which is once it believes
it's autonomous it will do anything to
survive that's what evolution has done
inside of our bodies so if you have this
basically Detachment from the electric
or bioelectric Harmony that in itself
has its own communication outside of
exosomes and and signaling uh you know
with cells around the environment then
it's almost like can you blame it for
doing exactly what we're programmed to
do when it now feels you know foreign or
or autonomous I I don't like to give the
cancer uh uh a brain a brain
that's more theological which doesn't
doesn't fit with our understanding
evolutionary biology but when you say
it's if falling back all the all the
cells that existed on the planet before
oxygen came into the atmosphere were
fermenters uh so the fermentation
pathways are the most ancient Pathways
for energy there was no oxygen so when
you have no oxygen how do you get energy
and it's through substrate level
phosphor relations which are ancient
Pathways and as I said when you are
fermenting glucose and glutamine you're
using substrate level phosphor relations
these are ancient Pathways um uh and the
cancer cells are simply falling back on
on these and they exist in all of our
cells in tiny little they don't play a
major role but they're there but in the
cancer they become dominant because the
organel that was controlling the
differentiated state has lost control
cells fall back on their default state
which is proliferation driven by
fermentation energy through substrate
level phosphorilation this is ancient
Pathways of energy met metabolism that
the that the cell and they cify the
micro environment creating a world of
difficulty for those trying to manage
the disorder but once you understand
biological evolution and biochemistry
all the stuff to to manage cancer makes
should be done and can make a lot of
sense and be very very effective problem
is most people don't know that or can't
I don't know it's just I know it I
understand it and uh uh uh I'm trying to
tell the world that this is not an
insurmountable problem this is a very
logical way to manage this dis disase
based on your understanding of
evolutionary biology and biochemistry
and and warberg had it right mostly and
we're correcting where he made his
mistakes oh he C made a couple of
mistakes but we're fixing those mistakes
and we're going to come out with a new
uh uh showing how warberg hypothesis
merge now into the mitochondrial
metabolic theory of cancer and it will
replace the somatic mutation theory of
cancer and then you're going to see
death rates drop and people living
longer and being healthier and and this
is just the future and you you will be
part of this future once you once you
get to know this your patients are going
to love what you're doing to them and
helping them out but if if the system
allows you to do that if the system
doesn't allow you to do that then you're
going to be a very frustrated person
yeah Tom I appreciate it so much I'm
just always humbled mind blown M mind
rattling after speaking of you this is
it's exhausting in the sense in all the
good reasons but it's almost like an
existential it's a professional
existential crisis that's the way I
would Define it well I wish other
members of your profession would have
the same feeling we'll get there we'll
make it out hope so
[Music]
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