Ibram X. Kendi on “How to Be an Antiracist” | Amanpour and Company

Summary

In this interview, Dr. Ibram X. Kendi discusses the importance of being actively anti-racist rather than passively non-racist. He argues that racism is not just about ignorance but can be driven by political self-interest. Kendi, who has battled cancer, draws parallels between fighting racism and fighting cancer, emphasizing the need for both local and systemic treatments to address societal inequities. He advocates for acknowledging the problem, removing racist policies, and implementing anti-racist policies to prevent the reoccurrence of racial inequity.

Takeaways

• 🔍 The guest, Abram X. Kendi, discusses the importance of being actively anti-racist rather than passively non-racist, emphasizing that there's no neutral ground in the fight against racism.
• 📊 Kendi highlights the political context of the U.S. elections, noting that moderate Democratic nominees might not be as effective against Trump as progressive candidates, due to the appeal of change agents in recent elections.
• 👥 He identifies two types of swing voters: those who swing from Republican to Democrat and those who swing between voting Democrat and not voting at all, with the latter group being more likely to support progressive policies.
• 📚 Kendi's book, 'How to Be an Anti-Racist', argues that racism is not just about ignorant beliefs but can also stem from political self-interest and the need to justify discriminatory policies.
• 🚫 He challenges the common misconception that racism comes from ignorance, suggesting that it can be a deliberate tool used to maintain power and suppress certain groups.
• 🌟 The interviewee points out the historical and ongoing use of racist ideas to justify voter suppression tactics, particularly targeting people of color.
• 💡 Kendi discusses the concept of reverse racism and how it's been used to create a divisive narrative, emphasizing the need to define policies as racist based on their outcomes, not just intentions.
• 🌱 He shares a personal story from the 1990s when he internalized negative stereotypes about black youth, illustrating how societal messages can shape individual beliefs.
• ⚖️ The conversation touches on the parallels between fighting cancer and fighting racism, suggesting that both require acknowledging the problem, targeted treatment, and systemic changes to prevent recurrence.
• 💪 Kendi's personal battle with cancer influenced his writing, giving him a sense of urgency to complete his book and a deeper understanding of the need for proactive measures against systemic issues like racism.

Q & A

What is the main argument of Ibram X. Kendi regarding racism?

Ibram X. Kendi argues that not being racist is not enough; one must actively be anti-racist. He emphasizes that there is no neutrality in the struggle against racism and that one either endorses racial hierarchy or racial equality.

Why does Kendi believe a moderate Democratic nominee might ensure Trump's re-election?

Kendi suggests that a moderate Democratic nominee might not appeal to certain swing voters who are more likely to be attracted to a progressive candidate. He points out that Trump was successful in winning over some white working-class voters who desired more liberal policies than Obama, suggesting that a progressive candidate could win over these voters and potentially some of the white swing voters as well.

How does Kendi differentiate between a racist and an anti-racist?

Kendi differentiates by stating that a racist endorses the idea of racial hierarchy or believes problems are rooted in racial groups, while an anti-racist supports racial equality or locates the roots of problems in power and policies. He asserts that one either allows racial inequities to persist or confronts them.

What commonality does Kendi find between Trump's and Obama's candidacies?

Kendi notes that both Trump and Obama presented themselves as change agents, not necessarily as total outsiders, but as figures who could bring about transformation. This branding as agents of change was a significant factor in their electoral success.

How does Kendi suggest that racism is not just a result of ignorance?

Kendi points out that racism can be driven by political self-interest, such as the Republican Party's support for voter suppression policies. These policies are justified by racist ideas, which are then consumed by the public, leading to a belief in the validity of these racist justifications.

What does Kendi propose as a method to combat racism?

Kendi suggests that combating racism involves acknowledging its existence, similar to diagnosing an illness. He advocates for the surgical removal of racist policies, followed by systemic treatments like anti-racist policies to prevent reoccurrence, and continuous vigilance to ensure equity and justice.

How does Kendi's personal battle with cancer influence his views on fighting racism?

Kendi's experience with cancer has given him clarity on the fight against both cancer and racism. He compares the process of acknowledging a cancer diagnosis to recognizing the presence of racism, and the treatments used for cancer to the strategies needed to combat systemic racism.

What was Kendi's perspective on black youth during the 1990s?

In the 1990s, Kendi internalized negative stereotypes about black youth, believing that there was something wrong with the group as a whole. He later recognized this as a mistake, understanding that the problems faced by black youth were structural and not inherent to the group.

How does Kendi define a policy as racist?

Kendi defines a policy as racist based on its outcome. If a policy leads to inequity and injustice, he considers it racist, regardless of whether it contains racial language or the intent of the policymaker.

What does Kendi suggest is the role of the individual in being anti-racist?

Kendi suggests that individuals should actively confront racial inequities and support policies that lead to equity and justice. He emphasizes that being anti-racist is an ongoing process that requires continuous action and self-reflection.

Outlines

00:00

🗳️ Political Context and Swing Voters

The first paragraph delves into the political landscape, focusing on the fear of a moderate Democratic nominee leading to Trump's re-election. The guest, Abram X. Kendi, discusses two types of swing voters: those transitioning from Republican to Democrat, particularly white working-class voters who are more likely to support Trump due to his cultural and racial appeal; and those swinging between voting Democrat and not voting at all, often younger and people of color who favor progressive policies. Kendi emphasizes the importance of a progressive candidate to engage these voters. The conversation also touches on the success of change agents like Trump and Obama, who positioned themselves as agents of transformation, and the critical role of change in recent presidential elections.

05:02

📚 The Distinction Between Not Being Racist and Being Anti-Racist

In the second paragraph, Kendi clarifies the difference between being 'not racist' and being 'anti-racist'. He argues that claiming to be 'not racist' implies a false neutrality, which he refutes by stating that in the struggle against racism, one must either support racial hierarchy (being racist) or racial equality (being anti-racist). Kendi challenges the notion that racism is based on ignorance, suggesting that it can also stem from political self-interest, as seen in voter suppression policies. He also addresses the misconception of 'anti-white racism' and the importance of defining policies as racist based on their outcomes, not just their intent or language.

10:03

🏥 Personal Struggle with Cancer and Analogy to Fighting Racism

The third paragraph is deeply personal, as Kendi discusses his battle with stage 4 colon cancer and how it influenced his writing of 'How to Be an Anti-Racist'. His diagnosis led to a shift in focus from internal conflict to a determination to complete his work. He reflects on a speech he gave in the 1990s, filled with anti-black sentiments influenced by the racial narratives of the time. Kendi's journey from consuming these ideas to critically examining and rejecting them is central to his advocacy for anti-racism. He draws a parallel between fighting cancer and fighting racism, emphasizing the need for both local and systemic interventions to address and prevent recurrence.

15:05

🛡️ Strategies for Combating Metastatic Racism

In the final paragraph, Kendi extends the cancer analogy to discuss strategies for combating 'metastatic racism', which has spread throughout society. He stresses the importance of acknowledging the existence of racism as the first step towards healing. Kendi outlines a multifaceted approach involving the surgical removal of racist policies, systemic treatments like anti-racist policies to address unseen inequities, and vigilant monitoring to prevent reoccurrence. He concludes by encouraging individuals to lead anti-racist lives, akin to maintaining a healthy lifestyle to prevent cancer recurrence.

Keywords

💡Anti-Racism

Anti-racism is the active opposition to racism by promoting the idea of racial equality and actively working to dismantle racist structures and policies. In the video, the guest Abram X. Kendi emphasizes that being 'not racist' is not enough; one must be actively anti-racist. This concept is central to the video's theme, as Kendi argues for the necessity of actively confronting and dismantling racial hierarchies and inequities.

💡Swing Voters

Swing voters are individuals who do not consistently vote for one political party but may switch their support based on various factors. In the transcript, the discussion about swing voters focuses on two groups: those who swing from Republican to Democrat and those who swing between voting Democrat and not voting at all. The understanding of these voters is crucial for the political context discussed, as their choices can significantly influence election outcomes.

💡White Working-Class Voters

This term refers to voters who are part of the white working-class demographic. The script discusses how Trump won a significant portion of these voters by appealing to their cultural and racial ideas, as well as their economic interests. This concept is important for understanding the political strategies and the appeal of certain candidates to specific voter segments.

💡Progressive Policies

Progressive policies are those that advocate for social reform and change, often aiming to address social inequalities and promote social justice. The video suggests that a more progressive candidate could win over swing voters and a portion of white working-class voters by supporting policies that align with these voters' interests in social and economic change.

💡Change Agents

Change agents are individuals who drive transformation and innovation within a system or society. The script compares Trump's and Obama's successful candidacies, noting that they both positioned themselves as change agents, promising significant transformations. This concept is used to illustrate how candidates who advocate for change can excite voters and potentially secure their support.

💡Racial Hierarchy

A racial hierarchy is a social construct where certain racial or ethnic groups are ranked as superior or inferior to others. The video argues against the endorsement of racial hierarchy, advocating instead for the promotion of racial equality. This concept is integral to understanding the video's message about the need to confront and dismantle systems that perpetuate racial inequality.

💡Voter Suppression

Voter suppression refers to tactics and policies that aim to restrict certain groups' ability to vote, often disproportionately affecting minority communities. The script discusses how some political parties may use racist ideas to justify voter suppression policies, such as voter ID laws, to maintain political power. This concept is crucial for understanding the video's discussion on how racism can be embedded in political strategies.

💡Metastatic Cancer

Metastatic cancer is cancer that has spread from its original site to other parts of the body. The video draws a parallel between fighting metastatic cancer and combating systemic racism, suggesting that both require a combination of local and systemic treatments. This analogy is used to illustrate the complexity of addressing deeply ingrained social issues like racism.

💡Racial Inequity

Racial inequity refers to the unfair treatment or access to resources and opportunities based on race. The video emphasizes the need to confront and eliminate racial inequities, arguing that policies should be judged by their outcomes in reducing or perpetuating these disparities. This concept is central to the video's advocacy for anti-racist policies and actions.

💡Affirmative Action

Affirmative action is a policy measure that aims to increase opportunities for historically underrepresented groups, such as minorities and women, in areas like education and employment. The script discusses how some perceive affirmative action as 'anti-white,' illustrating the complexities in defining and understanding racist policies based on their outcomes versus intent. This concept is relevant to the video's broader discussion on racial policies and their impacts.

Highlights

Abram X. Kendi argues that being 'not racist' is insufficient; we must actively be anti-racist.

Kendi is the founding director of the Anti-Racism Research and Policy Center and has written a book on anti-racism.

He discusses the political context of the U.S. elections and the fear of a moderate Democratic nominee leading to Trump's re-election.

Kendi identifies two major sets of swing voters: those swinging from Republican to Democrat and those swinging between voting Democrat and not voting at all.

Trump's appeal to white working-class voters and the perception of sharing their cultural and racial ideas is highlighted.

The importance of a progressive candidate in winning over swing voters and a portion of white voters is emphasized.

Kendi draws a parallel between Trump's and Obama's campaigns as both positioned themselves as change agents.

He criticizes the notion of being 'not racist' as a claim of neutrality, which he argues is a mask for racism.

Kendi explains that racism is not about being a bad person but about the policies and ideas that one supports.

He challenges the idea that racism is solely driven by ignorance, suggesting that political self-interest can also be a motivator.

Kendi discusses voter suppression policies and how they are justified by racist ideas, even when they are driven by political self-interest.

The concept of 'anti-white racism' as a divisive narrative and its historical context is explored.

Kendi suggests defining policies as racist based on their outcomes, not just their intent or language.

He shares a personal story from the 1990s about internalizing negative beliefs about black youth and his journey away from those ideas.

Kendi's diagnosis with stage 4 colon cancer and how it influenced his writing and perspective on fighting racism is discussed.

The analogy between fighting metastatic cancer and fighting metastatic racism, including acknowledging the problem, local and systemic treatment, and prevention of recurrence, is made.

Transcripts

our next guest argues that not being

racist is not enough we must actively be

anti-racist Abram candy has written a

book about that and he is also the

founding director of the anti racism

research and policy center

he joins our hari Sreenivasan for a

candid conversation about how his battle

with cancer shaped his views of

prejudice but they started by talking

about the political context you've

watched Iowa you've watched New

Hampshire and you recently wrote before

these contests why I fear a moderate

Democratic nominee some Democrats are

afraid of nominating a progressive but a

moderate may be more likely to ensure

Trump's reelection why well it seems to

me they're two major sets of swing

voters and one of the swing voters were

talking about and those are swing voters

who are swinging from Republican to

Democrat and when you actually look at

the data on these specific voters you

actually see for instance that that

Trump won about 20% of white white

working-class voters who are liberal and

he also won about 38% of white

working-class voters who wanted policies

more liberal than Obama

and so part of his pitch is to the white

working-class making this case that not

only does he share their cultural and

racial ideas but he's also presumably

compared to a moderate more progressive

that's how he saw in pitching himself

particularly as relates to foreign

policy and more domestic policy the

other side is the what I call the other

swing voter and and these are voters who

are swinging between voting Democrat and

not voting at all and when we look at

this population again I'm not speaking

about people who never vote I'm talking

about people sometimes vote and

sometimes they came out for Obama

precisely they came out for Obama and

then they did not come out in 2016 for

Hillary Clinton and then some of them

voted in 2018 election when when you

look at this group they are

predominantly younger and they're

predominantly people of color and

they're especially young black voters

and then when you look at that

specific group of voters they're more

likely to favor progressive policies and

and so then it seems to me that a more

progressive candidate will actually be

able to win those other swing voters and

then even a portion of white swing

voters as well there also seems to be a

commonality that you point out between

why Trump's candidacy and Obama's

candidate candidacy succeeded in that

they were approaching things not

necessarily as total outsiders but

change agents without question I mean

that was their pitch that was their

brand that was in a sense that the

campaign obviously Trump's campaign was

to make America great again

right and if we actually think about

Obama's sort of three word sort of

slogan yes we can one of the things I

did in the piece is I put that together

yes we can make America great again this

is it this is an idea of transformation

and the reason why I was critical is

because Obama cast himself as a change

agent in contrast to obviously a Mitt

Romney and in 2012 who he argued was

more of an establishment sort of figure

by account by you know in the same

comparison Trump presented himself as a

change agent in contrast to presenting

Hillary Clinton as an establishment

figure and so in the last really three

election cycles for president it's been

the change agents who's been calling for

massive amounts of change who've

actually been more likely to excite

voters you wrote a book recently

literally a how-to book how to be an

anti-racist not a non racist I want you

to read just this passage here from near

the front of the book what the

difference is sure so this is from the

introduction what's the problem with

being not racist it is a claim that

signifies neutrality I am NOT a racist

but neither am i aggressively against

racism but there is no neutrality in the

racism struggle the opposite of racist

is

not racist it is anti-racist what is the

difference

one either endorses the idea of racial

hierarchy as a racist or racial equality

as an anti-racist one either believes

problems are rooted in groups of people

as a racist or locates the roots of

problems in power and policies as an

anti-racist one either allows racial

inequities to persevere as a racist or

confronts racial inequities as an

anti-racist there is no in-between safe

space of not racist the claim of not

racist neutrality is a mask for racism

so there is no middle ground that's

pretty clear in what you're talking

about you're trying to sort of take away

what has now been called the r-word you

know a pejorative almost a slur right

and putting it back into in linguistic

perspective the descriptor that it is

and you really want people to start to

focus on the ideas and acts instead of

just the people right yeah I mean I

think many Americans say that they're

not racist because they believe and have

been taught really that a racist is

essentially a bad person that if you

admit you're racist you'll always be a

racist and that's like tattooing the R

word on your forehead and that you have

we apparently have racist bones in our

bodies which allows some presidential

candidates Republicans and Democrats to

say I don't have a racist bone in my

body what that means is that this is an

essential term you become a racist and

what I argue in show in my work is no

one becomes a racist or even an

anti-racist it is a reflection of what a

person is doing in each moment and

people change and so if in one moment a

person is saying that a particular

racial group is inferior they're being

racist if in the very next moment

they're supporting a policy that's

leading to equity and justice did being

anti-racist and there's so many people

with both racist and anti-racist ideas

who support racist and anti-racist

policies and and because of that we

can't label them one of the other

permanently right we can only say what

their being in each moment you point out

that a in your view that it doesn't

racism doesn't necessarily come from

just ignorant that there are other

drivers what are other motivations

besides ignorance so I think we're

living in a perfect example in which for

instance the Republican Party in many

cases because they've decided to not

open up their tent to to people of color

the demographics of the of the country

are moving away from them and so when

you don't have enough votes to win

there's only one alternative you

suppress votes you figure out ways to

suppress the votes of your political

opponents and so Republicans in many

cases have supported voter suppression

policies from voter ID laws to be

purging of voters from voter rolls but

then they had to have a justification

for those policies that they instituted

out of self-interest and that sort of

that justification was racist ideas they

had to claim that these voters of color

in Philadelphia and Cleveland in in

Phoenix are actually fraudulent that

they're essentially corrupting the the

voting process there's this long history

of classifying voters of color as

corrupt in in white voters as of course

not corrupt and and so then they had to

create a justification for that and that

justification was racist idea so you

essentially had the political

self-interest leading to these racist

voter suppression policies and in the

proper policies leading to racist ideas

to justify them and then you had regular

overt Americans who consumed those

racist ideas did not know they were

being manipulated and started believing

that there was a mass problem of voter

fraud there's also this through line of

anti-white racism as a justification of

been around since forever I'm sure that

you're the civil rights era more

recently but it's popular it's also

something that creates a sort of

divisive Nasima today how do you become

an anti-racist in that context I think

part of the sort of preponderance in

recent decades of this notion of reverse

discrimination as it was before and now

more anti-white racism such that a few

years ago the majority of white

Americans stated that white people were

more likely to be discriminated against

in any other group I think that stems

from how people are conceiving of and

defining a racist policy so typically

Americans of all races tend to define a

policy is racist or even discriminatory

based on weather has racial language in

the policy or based on the intent of the

policymaker not the outcome and so if we

were to define racist policies as racist

by their outcome what we would then see

is the outcome of all of these part of

many of these policies are white people

being on the higher end of those

outcomes but again if we are if we're

determining by the actual policy itself

and that then allows or what American to

say well you know isn't for instance

affirmative action anti white and then

that would cause people like me to say

well is it a standardized test set of

policies anti-black because then the

outcome it's leading to racial

disparities where white people are on

the higher end and so I think that one

of the things that all Americans need to

realize is that we should be defining

policies as racist based on their

outcome if a policy is leading to

inequity and injustice then it's racist

and and I think you have many white

Americans who are not actually on the

lower end of these policies the other

side of this that's very critical is you

actually do have policies that are

harming white Americans

that are harming white Americans

disproportionately and some of those

policies white Americans actually

supported so they give an example the

rollback on on gun control policies and

in several states has actually led to a

spike in white male suicides by handgun

so while you're writing this book just

before your wife goes through cancer

your mom has cancer and while you're

writing this you get diagnosed with

stage 4 colon cancer how does that

change the process for you what you were

thinking about how you're writing well I

think it changes a lot I mean I I think

it was very difficult for me to write

this book and I think it was difficult

because many ways the the book is

anchored on my own personal story my own

sort of personal story of in the 90s

consuming all this anti blackness all

these beliefs that I had that there was

something wrong with black people

and then you know my story of

essentially journeying away from those

earlier ideas and obviously as a black

person it was very shameful and painful

for me to admit and chronicle those

ideas and so I was in a way fighting

myself when I was writing the first five

chapters of the book but then I was

diagnosed with cancer with stage four

colon cancer and then at that point I

was like I just want to finish I you

know I don't even know whether I'll see

it to you know being published I just

want to finish and so then all of that

anxiety all of that fighting with myself

all of that Shane went away and I was

focused on writing so you write this

passage it'd be 20 years ago that you're

giving this speech an MLK Day and now

when you look back at that speech what

do you see in yourself that was off so I

I think what happened was I came of age

in the 1990s and if there was ever a

decade in American history when black

youth were considered America's racial

problem

it was the 1990s and until black youth

were constantly sort of degraded and

denigrated and we were told that we were

too violent we were told that we didn't

value education we were told we were

having too many babies out of wedlock we

were told all different types of things

about what was wrong with us as a group

and and as a decade went on I consumed

many of those ideas without even

realizing it and ultimately when I gave

that speech 20 years ago I expressed

many of those ideas and you know the

whole speech for the most part was about

all the things wrong with black youth

and how Martin Luther King jr. would be

very angry with black youth because of

all the things we're doing wrong because

we're not living up to his dream here in

high school at this time I was a senior

in high school and and of course we're

calling that you know I'm filled with

shame because you know I should have

realized or I should have been taught

that no there actually was not something

wrong as a group with black youth as a

group and there was everything wrong

with what black youth were facing they

were facing the highest rates of

unemployment in the 90s they were facing

the highest rates of incarceration they

were facing all these structural

problems that were harming them they

were being ensnared as opposed to the

them ensnaring the country in the last

chapter of your book you talk about this

intermingling of your understanding of

both racism and cancer and that there

are ways to fight racism like there are

ways to fight cancer how did this change

your thinking I think it gave me a

tremendous amount of clarity on the

relationship between cancer and racism

and how we can fight cancer and racism

and especially metastatic cancer and

metastatic racism that spread to every

part of our body politic I think the

first step with both is acknowledging

the diagnosis you know acknowledging

it's very very hard you know

particularly when you use someone like

me it was my mid 30s you know I didn't

smoke and drink I was I was a vegan

and someone in coming into

I have stage 4 colon carry our for me to

accept because I thought I was healthy

just as many Americans who feel that

they've been doing right by let's say

people of color it's it's very hard for

him to accept the diagnosis that they

too are being racist but that first step

of acknowledging the diagnosis is

critical because how can we go about

healing right if we don't even admit

that there is a problem and so I think

after we get past that then we can

actually go after racism how we go after

metastatic cancer which is a local and a

systemic treatment the the local

treatment is literally going in and

removing surgically removing the racist

policies from our institutions from our

communities in the way surgeons remove

surgically the tumors but then they

don't stop there

they then flood the body with systemic

treatment which is chemotherapy and

increasing the immunotherapy which is to

reduce the cancer cells they can't see

which is to protect against a

reoccurrence of cancer in the same way

we could flood the body with anti-racist

policies that literally can eliminate

the remaining sort of tumor cells of

inequity that can protect against the

reoccurrence and then doctors don't stop

there

they they they then make sure they watch

and follow the body very closely to

ensure that there's not going to be a

reoccurrence and then there when there

is a reoccurrence what do they do they

aggressively treat all the while they're

encouraging the the cancer survivor to

eat well right to exercise which is

equivalent to essentially you know

thinking and and recognizing the world

from an anti-racist standpoint you know

recognizing that there should not be any

inequities because the racial groups are

equals eeprom Kennedy thanks so much

you're welcome

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