ICP.Talks: Trustless Multichain bringing ETH & BTC together | Ep. 9

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Kyle Langum interviews Ashling Connelly, a researcher at Definity leading multi-chain efforts. Ashling shares insights on the evolution of the blockchain industry, particularly focusing on the multi-chain narrative at ETH Denver. She discusses the importance of standardization, the potential of Bitcoin integration, and the innovative projects being developed on the Internet Computer platform. The discussion highlights the maturity and vibrancy of the industry, showcasing the shift from mere replication of traditional systems to creating unique, blockchain-native solutions.

Takeaways

• 🌟 The Ethereum Denver conference highlights the growing importance of multi-chain narratives and the increasing interest in Bitcoin integration within the blockchain community.
• 💡 Ashling's mission at the conference was to understand the current multi-chain narrative and explain the efforts and achievements of Definity in this space.
• 🚀 The Internet Computer's integration with Bitcoin and Ethereum allows for trustless interactions, marking a significant step forward in cross-chain communication.
• 📈 The event showcased a maturity in the blockchain industry, with projects moving beyond mere token swapping to developing real-world applications and innovative use cases.
• 🤝 There was a notable shift towards collaboration and standardization, with projects seeking to work together and build on each other's successes.
• 🌐 The community vibe at the conference was dynamic and vibrant, reflecting a renewed optimism and energy in the blockchain space.
• 💬 Ashling's experience at the conference emphasized the value of face-to-face interactions and the importance of community building in the growth of the industry.
• 📊 The discussion around threshold signatures and verifiable randomness highlighted the technical advancements and potential applications in secure and decentralized communication.
• 🏆 Projects like dmail demonstrated the potential for blockchain applications to scale and retain users, showing the viability of web3 businesses.
• 🔍 The conference served as a platform for showcasing the progress made during the industry's recent challenging times, with many projects ready to release new advancements.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the conversation between Kyle and Ashling?

The main focus of the conversation is the experiences and insights gained during the e Denver event, particularly around the multi-chain narrative and the developments in the blockchain industry.

How does Ashling feel about the atmosphere at e Denver?

Ashling feels that the vibes at e Denver are awesome, with a lot of exciting things happening, and appreciates the community and business-oriented atmosphere.

What is Ashling's role at the e Denver event?

Ashling is a researcher at Definity, leading multi-chain efforts, and her role at the event is to share insights on the multi-chain narrative, educate people on how their technology works, and discuss the trustless and decentralized aspects of their project.

What was the first event Ashling attended at e Denver?

The first event Ashling attended was an event organized by ICP Hubs at the University of Colorado and Denver, where she gave a talk on threshold signatures and their significance in the context of the Internet Computer (IC).

How does Ashling describe the Bitcoin integration on the Internet Computer?

Ashling describes the Bitcoin integration as trustless, battle-tested, and secure, allowing for read and write operations with Bitcoin and Ethereum, and providing a non-custodial solution for users to interact with the Bitcoin ledger.

What does Ashling find surprising about the interest in multi-chain at e Denver?

Ashling finds it surprising that there is a lot of interest in the multi-chain narrative, with many people looking for tools and infrastructure to build on the Internet Computer and integrate with Bitcoin and Ethereum.

What is the significance of the CK BTC project for Definity?

CK BTC is the fastest-growing synthetic Bitcoin on the Definity platform, demonstrating the momentum and growth of the project, as well as its position as a leader in the multi-chain space.

How does Ashling perceive the evolution of the blockchain industry over the past two years?

Ashling perceives the industry as maturing and evolving from a focus on decentralization and replication to building real products and services that leverage the unique properties of blockchain technology, such as cross-chain integration and decentralized privacy tools.

What are some of the key themes Ashling noticed at e Denver?

Some key themes Ashling noticed include multi-chain integration, chain abstraction, account abstraction, and the increasing interest in Bitcoin and its potential for innovation and cross-pollination with the Ethereum ecosystem.

What does Ashling find particularly interesting about the future of blockchain technology?

Ashling finds it particularly interesting to think about how blockchain technology will integrate into everyday life, such as using it for payments, computation, and digital assets, and how it will change the way we interact with various services and systems.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Introduction and Experiences at ETH Denver

The speakers, Kyle Langum and Ashling Connelly, discuss their experiences at ETH Denver, noting the exhaustion from the event and the dry air. They touch on the significant difference from previous years, with a focus on multi-chain efforts and the crypto world's presence in Denver. Ashling shares her role as a researcher at Definity, leading multi-chain efforts, and her mission to understand and explain the current multi-chain narrative.

05:02

📚 Ashling's Research and Talks on Multi-Chain

Ashling delves into her research and the talks she gave at ETH Denver, focusing on multi-chain technology, chain key, and the integration of Bitcoin and Ethereum with the Internet Computer. She discusses the importance of education in the field and the need to understand the infrastructure and features like threshold signatures, verifiable randomness, and the integration with other chains.

10:02

🤝 Engaging with the Community and Side Events

The conversation shifts to the various side events and the value of community engagement at ETH Denver. Ashling and Kyle discuss the significance of these events in driving the industry forward, with Ashling sharing her experiences at ICP Hubs and her interactions with developers and students. They also touch on the importance of standardization and the potential for cross-chain collaboration.

15:03

💡 Insights from Bitcoin Renaissance and ETH Denver

Ashling shares her insights from Bitcoin Renaissance and the main ETH Denver event, highlighting the focus on L2s, EVMs, and the Bitcoin economy. She discusses the energy and innovation in the Bitcoin community and the headstart that projects on the Internet Computer have in integrating with Bitcoin. The conversation also covers the potential for growth and the excitement around Bitcoin's future in the industry.

20:05

🌐 The Future of Blockchain in Everyday Life

The speakers ponder the future of blockchain technology in everyday life, discussing its potential integration into daily activities like payments, communication, and governance. They explore the idea of a digital town and the role of blockchain in voting and community decisions. The conversation emphasizes the importance of interoperability and the user experience in driving blockchain adoption.

25:05

🚀 Growth and Maturity of the Crypto Industry

Ashling and Kyle reflect on the growth and maturity of the crypto industry, noting the shift from short-term trends to long-term vision and the emergence of serious businesses. They discuss the importance of community and collaboration in building a successful ecosystem, the rise of multi-chain solutions, and the industry's move towards modular infrastructure.

30:06

🤝 Networking and Learning at ETH Denver

The speakers share their experiences of networking at ETH Denver, highlighting the value of face-to-face interactions and the opportunities to learn from others in the industry. They discuss the welcoming nature of the community and the strategic partnerships formed, as well as the recognition of the Internet Computer's capabilities and the interest from other projects.

35:09

🌐 The Ethereum Ecosystem and Multi-Chain Integration

Ashling talks about the Ethereum ecosystem's openness to the Internet Computer and the interest in multi-chain integration. She discusses the importance of community vibes and the collaborative spirit at ETH Denver, as well as the trend towards modular tech stacks and the move away from monolithic infrastructure. The conversation also touches on the potential for AI and blockchain integration.

40:09

📈 The Evolution of Blockchain Beyond Web 2

The speakers discuss the evolution of blockchain technology beyond simply replicating Web 2 services, emphasizing the unique features and use cases that blockchain offers. They talk about the industry's shift in focus from decentralization as the sole value proposition to a more nuanced understanding of when and how to use blockchain technology effectively.

45:09

🎉 Highlights and Takeaways from ETH Denver

In the concluding segment, Ashling and Kyle share their personal highlights from ETH Denver, from insightful conversations to the validation of their work in the industry. They reflect on the maturity of the blockchain industry and its potential to reshape everyday life, expressing excitement for the future and the possibilities that lie ahead.

Keywords

💡multi-chain

The term 'multi-chain' refers to the integration and interaction of multiple blockchain networks, allowing for seamless transactions and data sharing across different blockchain ecosystems. In the context of the video, it is a central theme where the speakers discuss the importance of building applications and services that can operate across various blockchain networks, such as Bitcoin and Ethereum, to enhance functionality and reach a broader user base.

💡Chapstick

Chapstick is a colloquial term for lip balm, which is used to prevent or treat dry, chapped lips. In the video, it is humorously mentioned as an essential item for dealing with the dry air in Denver, where the event is taking place, symbolizing the practical aspects of attending a conference and the need for adaptation to new environments.

💡hydration

Hydration refers to the process of providing or absorbing water or other liquids to maintain adequate water content in the body or a system. In the video, one of the speakers is trying to hydrate as much as possible to cope with the dry climate of Denver, emphasizing the importance of taking care of one's physical well-being during a conference.

💡threshold signatures

Threshold signatures are a cryptographic method that allows a group of participants to collectively create a signature on a message without revealing individual private keys. This concept is crucial for the security and decentralization of blockchain networks. In the video, it is mentioned as part of the technical discussion on how the Internet Computer uses such signatures to ensure trustless operations.

💡developer experience

Developer experience refers to the ease and efficiency with which software developers can build, test, and deploy applications. It encompasses the tools, frameworks, and processes that support development work. In the context of the video, the speakers discuss the importance of creating a seamless developer experience for building applications that span multiple blockchains, emphasizing the need for education and standardization to make this process accessible and intuitive.

💡Bitcoin Renaissance

Bitcoin Renaissance is an event mentioned in the video that focuses on Bitcoin and its growing ecosystem, including discussions on layer 2 solutions and the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM). The term 'Renaissance' suggests a rebirth or revival of interest and innovation around Bitcoin, indicating its significance in the current blockchain landscape.

💡standardization

Standardization in the context of the video refers to the establishment of common protocols, rules, or guidelines that govern the development and operation of applications and services within the blockchain space. It is crucial for interoperability, allowing different blockchain projects to work together seamlessly. The speakers discuss the importance of standardization for the multi-chain narrative and the future of blockchain technology.

💡gasless transactions

Gasless transactions are transactions on a blockchain that do not require the payment of 'gas' fees, which are typically needed to process and validate transactions. In the video, the concept is discussed as part of the benefits of the Internet Computer's integration with Bitcoin, highlighting how it can facilitate smoother and more accessible user experiences by removing the need for transaction fees.

💡community vibe

Community vibe refers to the atmosphere, culture, and interactions among the members of a community, particularly in the context of a conference or gathering. In the video, the term is used to describe the positive and collaborative spirit at the event, emphasizing the importance of face-to-face interactions and the shared enthusiasm for building and growing the blockchain industry.

💡monolithic infrastructure

Monolithic infrastructure refers to a single, unified system or structure that houses all components of a software application or service. In the context of the video, the speakers discuss moving away from this traditional approach towards a more modular infrastructure, where different blockchain technologies and features can be combined to create customized solutions for developers and users.

💡web3

Web3, or Web 3.0, is a term used to describe the next generation of the internet, characterized by decentralized applications, blockchain technology, and greater user control over data and privacy. In the video, web3 is the overarching theme, with discussions centered on the development and maturation of blockchain technologies and their potential to revolutionize various aspects of daily life and business.

Highlights

Ashling Connelly, a researcher at Definity, discusses her focus on multi-chain efforts and the importance of educating people about the trustless and decentralized nature of the technology.

The Internet Computer's original goal was to decentralize the web, and with the integration of Bitcoin and Ethereum, it now allows for trustless communication with these chains.

Ashling's talk at the University of Colorado and Denver on threshold signatures and verifiable randomness was well-received, showcasing the industry's growing understanding of cryptography.

The Ethereum community is showing interest in the multi-chain narrative, with a focus on chain abstraction and account abstraction.

Bitcoin is gaining attention in the multi-chain space, with projects like CK BTC demonstrating the potential for synthetic Bitcoin and gasless transactions.

The importance of standardization in the blockchain industry was emphasized, with discussions on how to advise the building of compatible systems across different chains.

The growth of the dmail application on the Internet Computer, reaching 8 million unique users and 1.5 million monthly active users, highlights the potential for real-world impact.

The Ethereum community's welcoming approach to new projects and technologies, including the Internet Computer, fosters collaboration and innovation.

The shift in the blockchain industry from focusing solely on decentralization to embracing a variety of blockchain features that Web 2 cannot offer.

The potential for Bitcoin to serve as a long-lasting database, as demonstrated by Ashling inscribing her wedding anniversary into Bitcoin.

The emergence of decentralized AI and the potential for blockchain to revolutionize the AI industry by offering new innovative uses of the technology.

The importance of face-to-face interactions in the digital age, as exemplified by the value of meeting people from the blockchain community in person.

The maturity of the blockchain industry, with projects focusing on real-world use cases and building products that cannot be created on traditional web platforms.

The potential for Bitcoin to solve inheritance problems by automatically passing down wealth through smart contracts.

The excitement and energy at Eth Denver, with a focus on real innovation and a vibrant community of builders and thinkers.

The impact of the Internet Computer project and the direction it's heading, with a strong sense of community and a focus on practical applications.

Transcripts

I'm Kyle langum and I'm joined with

ashin Connelly how you doing Ashling

good to be here with you oh I'm I'm

exhausted we're a couple days into to

eat Denver you're got to be more

exhausted you've been here uh the whole

week longer than a week uh how you

feeling I have my Chapstick like

permanently in my hand I have my water

I'm like trying to hydrate as much as

possible I saw some tips on Twitter last

week before coming and I was like why do

they care so much about ChapStick and

now I realize I forgot my Chapstick

yesterday my lips are really chapped I

don't think I'm going to recover the air

here is really dry but the Vibes are

awesome yeah are you feeling the same

way for sure I think it's quite a bit of

a difference this year compared to yeah

a few of the events last year it's been

nice to see it so now so uh we're going

to recap I guess in this space we're

just going to have a conversation try to

basically catch everyone up on what's

going on at e Denver there's a lot of

exciting things going on so we're

probably going to jump topic to topic to

topic um but I think that's probably the

best place to start it's just uh this

year it seems like eth Denver is

happening there's not just eth Denver

itself but there's so many side events

um you know Bitcoin are showed up here

as well there's a lot going on like the

crypto world is in Denver right now um

are you catching the same thing yeah for

sure I think I mean always with these

events the thing that I've learned is

that the side events are where the real

action is shouldn't say say that I mean

of course but uh yeah it's uh like

jumping around town to all these

different events and then different

things in the evening all day all night

it's super cool like it's really cool to

see what's going on yeah yeah well just

starting off so you gave a talk uh

earlier this week right multi-chain um

focus do you want to kind of like recap

on what uh on in terms of just chain key

technology like give me give me give us

some like information on like where the

talk was held at uh and like what a high

level overview of like what you guys

were uh chatting about so yeah I mean

there's been a few things going on this

week um maybe I should introduce myself

also like this is maybe I don't know if

that's a good place to start yeah let's

start at the start so I'm Ashling um I'm

a researcher at definity and I'm leading

a lot of the multi-chain efforts at the

moment so I think our mission in coming

here at least for me was very much to

hear what is going on in this kind of

multi-chain narrative at the moment and

to also kind of explain to people what

we have been doing in this uh in this

situation so a lot of the kind of things

that I have been going to have been

around that focus and um like maybe just

to kind of recap a little bit our

multi-chain narrative and then we go

into the events sure um like because

maybe it gives some context I think with

the internet computer generally a lot of

the goal originally was to sort of

decentralize the web and I think having

built the infrastructure in the way that

we did and having you know daps that can

be hosted you know 100% on chain front

end back end everything kind of

decentralized and then having this

coupled with features like https alals

that allow you to actually communicate

directly with the internet kind of gives

you the situation where you sort of

realize this decentralized verifiable

web so we had this you know three years

ago now almost when the network launched

so this is great but then uh last year

and this year we kind of focused a lot

on integrating with other chains so with

bit coin and with ethereum so now we can

read and write with Bitcoin and ethereum

in a quite trustless way we'll move on

to other things later this year but yeah

so now we have a lot that we can kind of

talk around the internet very in a nice

decentralized way we can talk to bitcoin

and ethereum in a nice decentralized way

so the question is now a bit like how

can we package all of this together to

make like a super beautiful sort of

developer experience where people can

build dos that kind of cross like all of

the internet all of the block chains

this kind of stuff and so I mean in

trying to think about how to get people

on board with these ideas because it's a

lot of stuff like it's a lot of stuff

and um you know the fact that it's

actually there and usable now is kind of

a new idea to a lot of people and so I

guess for me like a huge part of this is

education so explaining to people what

this is actually how it works where the

ideas came from why it's actually

decentralized why we can make these

claims about trustless why we can make

claims of you know decentralized

communication this kind of stuff and so

one of the first events that I actually

I think the first day that I arrived was

um an event organized by ICP hubs at the

University of Colorado and Denver okay

um where I gave a talk about cheny

cryptography generally basically on the

IC how how do threshold signatures work

why does this give us the kind of

guarantees that we claim why does did

not just give us only signatures but so

much more like all this kind of

verifiable Randomness a lot of the um

yeah like the features like vet Keys

coming up a lot of the Integrations like

talking to bitcoin signing on E signing

on salana maybe later this year this

kind of stuff so that was really for me

the kind of it was a very nice way to

land actually like arriving in Denver

going back to school and like sitting in

a classroom with people and it was super

nice like they were uh it was very

engaged and more than I expected

actually um there were a lot of great

questions and a lot of people asking ah

is this like that and is this like you

know so people actually have a pretty

good understanding of what is going on

in crypto and they kind of start to be

able to reason about what is yeah what

are the similarities and the differences

between different things and I think

this is really the start of like actual

understanding in the industry it's very

cool I think that's probably like that

is how I would describe so far eth

Denver is people having that aha moment

around the internet computer like across

the industry I think we'll probably

touch on some other points I do have a

question do they call you Professor when

you're in the classroom no not Professor

no not Professor someone was joking and

saying like should we call you Ash or

like Ashling or like Dr Connelly and I

was like I don't know you can call me my

dgen names if you know

that what about um so like the the

students were they mostly uh you know

develop

students like actual students at the

college like what was the audience of

the the talk it was mostly developer

focused I think um yeah like they were

students also some of them actually

studying cryptography some of them just

developers that came along for the event

um but yeah it was kind of developer

focused I guess the ones that know more

about infrastructure and things like

this rather than just applications I see

I see cool so that was Tuesday yeah and

then Wednesday uh e Denver the the main

event had an open Jets I'm trying to

even remember back what we did on

Wednesday I think I was flying in um

what were I like were you the party I

can't really remember what we were doing

on

Wednesday I can see on your face that

you don't remember it's been a long week

it's like the days just all kind of blur

into one yeah yeah then uh I know on

Thursday the no on Thursday there was um

yeah there were I met actually a lot of

so yeah I went around to various

different side events on on Wednesday um

I think most mostly there was some stuff

around the chain abstraction and yeah

there some privacy events as well so

these were the ones that I went to a lot

as well also talking about threshold

stuff threshold signatures and how we

can use them nicely and yeah met a lot

of cool people good good I mean it's

definitely chain abstraction is the

chain abstraction or account abstraction

depending on who you're talking those

are like the themes of e Denver this

year um at least it seems like and and

it's kind of funny cuz I feel like every

ation I have with somebody it's like

well this team is going to do this you

know in 6 months and you know it always

comes back around to like well I know

but we're kind of doing that already on

the internet computer like we we have

the eth integration now so uh we're

we're already there um have you found

similar yeah so I mean one of the kind

of nicest surprises for me was I mean

the reaction to this multi-chain

narrative like I was at another event I

think on Thursday um this open

information house it's a super nice

initiative um like you can check them

out on Twitter I guess but uh yeah they

had an event that's actually running

three days and it was super nice and

like the they had really a lot of great

talks and panels but uh I was on a panel

just kind of debating a bit why open why

do we need open information and there I

kind of introduced myself as kind of

somebody working on multi-chain at uh

definity and at the internet computer

and like the response was like yes you

guys are doing this and we were were

like yeah of course like uh how how have

you not seen this um but yeah like they

there was a lot of interest like a

surprising amount of interest um and so

yeah a lot of people are thinking about

building a lot of stuff and kind of

looking for tools and looking for

infrastructure I was like man guys you

are a little bit behind like I mean some

of the projects building on ICP at the

moment kind of already are using these

tools and are like integrating them and

so I think especially around Bitcoin

defy and I mean Bitcoin is getting a lot

of attention as well this is where we

kind of can shine very well and I think

the projects that are building on IC

already have quite a head start and so

it was kind of cool to see uh the

reaction from some of the builders here

like ah we we need to get on this yeah I

I spent Thursday so the main event

started on Thursday but I spent Thursday

at Bitcoin Renaissance uh which was I

know 10 minutes down the street

um they did a phenomenal job uh there's

probably like a thousand bitcoiners

there they're there to talk about l2s

and uh you know EVMS uh that you know

like root stock that talk uh talk with

Bitcoin um and but that the general

thing was there's there's two there was

like two classes of projects there was

those who had been building for like the

last five years right so like the root

stock is a great example Stacks was

there um and they're kind of like

they're trying to their Vibe was very

much like what is our place in this new

like this Bitcoin economy just blew up

in the last four months and they're

trying to figure out okay like how do we

how do we position ourselves because

it's evolved in the last four months it

is evolved more than it had the last

five years um and then you have all the

new players who are coming in and saying

you know we're going to have an evm uh

for Bitcoin in you know a year from now

or here's our three-phase plan you know

to build you know uh like um build on

bitcoin Bob is uh um uh a big project

that's going on and they presented their

three their three-phase plan and and you

get this feeling where like guys the

time is now like yeah Bitcoin is now and

if you're not building now if you're not

deployed now you're missing your window

um so that was really cool to see I ran

into Bob Bley uh and that I I love Bob

uh I make no no uh no no secret of that

and it was really cool to see um like

Bob in his element like he's always been

ICP but he has uh become a huge

technical voice in Bitcoin so just as he

and I are talking it's just person after

person coming up like hey Bob you know

just wanted to like say and and I won't

name drop but there some pretty big

names in Bitcoin that were coming up to

Bob to say thank you um but I I just

kind of felt like yeah I mean we've got

a head start because we had the

integration uh you know definity

definitely had the forward thinking to

do the integration at a time when nobody

was talking about building on bitcoin

for the most part um and I think already

that that shines in the sense that we're

not talking about we're not making a

pivot to bitcoin we've been there for a

year there's already projects that are

deploying um I don't know if uh you know

you definity wasn't there as like a

sponsor or anything so we maybe we

didn't get the chance to kind of

highlight everything that was going on

but there's like CK BTC is um the

fastest growing uh um synthetic Bitcoin

you know whatever that class would be

it's already the seventh largest in uh

cross chain TBL um on defi Lama um you

can see cbtc transactions have like

tripled in the last 30 days uh volume

has tripled like it's just actually no

I'm sorry it's actually it's 600% in the

last three months is um the transaction

so um you can kind of get this feeling

of like yeah we've got the momentum

behind us we're not we're not waiting

for you know for the integration to to

get there and then we'll start building

and you know that stuff like we already

have that momentum going in um and there

were a few people who who kind of know

I'm you know I had my definity shirt on

and there were a few people who were

like you got to explain ICP like I'm a

bitcoiner like i' I've lived in the

stacks world my whole life I keep

hearing ICP can you just kind of give me

like the tldr like why what are you guys

doing that's different so we there's

there's some traction there that that

was really cool to see I felt like a

little celebrity with my definity shirt

on like oh you guys are approaching me

um so anyways yeah theit the Bitcoin uh

um now they may be oversold they were

saying they painted the town orange you

go to the Bitcoin Renaissance and then I

went from there to the main event e

Denver is purple yeah and everything's

purple and I was like yeah there's

there's orders of magnitude more people

more uh um activities going on at the E

Denver uh at the on the ethereum side of

things but it was still it still really

cool to see so um I think uh yeah like

something to note there as well I mean I

don't want to drag it too much in the I

mean sometimes we we drag it too much in

the technical Direction but like

one of the things that I think is truly

special about our Bitcoin integration is

exactly that it has been done for a

while it is a bit battle tested it has

gone through like Security reviews and

like and it you know like it's it's good

like it's good to go there's no

like question marks or like holding your

breath to see what happens because I

think like from Bitcoin friends of mine

I think you know like maybe one of the

reasons why development on bitcoin did

not take off so much is because the

Bitcoin Maxis don't necessarily want

that you know and like um even if they

do want it they also want it to be like

super secure and like uh if you have

Bridges and if you have whatever sort of

protocols that are not necessarily

threshold ised or not necessarily like

super secure cryptographically or

security tested or whatever they're just

not going to touch it like and so yeah I

think this is I mean for me one of the

things that I found whenever I talk to

bitcoin people is that I say like hey

look you can have this in a like

non-custodial way you don't you can get

off your centralized exchanges you don't

have to manage your own Keys even but

like you know you do have this kind of

trustless solution so I mean this I

think is a huge benefit that we have

over others because to build this I mean

it took us a while MH um but yeah it was

this kind of very forward looking thing

so I mean we're quite yeah it's it's a

good time to be here yeah well you like

you mentioned um the and that was one of

the things is as people approach um you

want flexibility right somebody comes up

and they're Maxi and they're like no I

don't want I don't want their I don't

want like a bridge solution like like

don't sell me a bridge solution and you

can flush that out really easily and

then you easily just have the

conversation of like look there's a

Bitcoin node running and if you want to

write directly like if you want to have

a smart contract that writes um that

signs transactions on the Bitcoin Ledger

you know here you go you you can do it

yeah and then you have other people who

are like the security model doesn't

really I don't I'm not so worried about

that I'm more interested in like you

know XYZ like scalability cost yeah yeah

like they have their own thing and

you're like well you know um you've got

CK BTC as a as a decent solution or you

know if you do want to um wait for your

six confirmations on The Ledger you have

the uh Native like we there's

flexibility there for people like it's

kind of nice cuz you feel like you're

not trying to sell them you you can meet

them where they're at as you're talking

to whether it's a Bitcoin or it's any

other person and you're like well you

know what's important to you and

actually our solution um fits in there

pretty well so um I think you know I

don't know I I think the the Bitcoin

side of things here at eat Denver was

was pretty exciting to watch um there's

a there is a lot of innovation going on

there and like incredible amount of

excitement the fact that they got a

thousand bitcoiners to fly out to Denver

um and go to this one day event is

pretty impressive Conference during an

eth conference yeah um um so yeah so it

was uh and and not only that um actually

like um there's a couple prominent

Bitcoin bitcoiners who are at the eth

conference um you know I know uh munib

Ali was tweeting that he didn't get

quite the warmest welcome um at eth

Denver but there's still it's still

you're starting to see a little bit more

of that like cross-pollination between

the two chains and maybe maybe we're

starting to see the early signs of uh

for sure I mean also I mean okay the eth

people are usually less uh ta than the

Bitcoin people but like a lot of eth

like projects that are based kind of

around the eth ecosystem are also really

asking a lot of questions about Bitcoin

now yeah and because I

mean they have a lot of experience in

building decentralized infrastructure

and applications and it's like well

surely we should be able to do this with

Bitcoin as well like we are the kind of

pioneers in this space so why not um

yeah engage with Bitcoin as well and so

this has also been a super nice um

talking point I think at our booth like

um so yeah we can also like you can do

your eat stuff but you can also now do

your Bitcoin stuff yeah on the IC yeah

and obviously if you're if you've got an

app and you're want extra liquidity

bitcoin's got a trillion dollars in

liquidity if you want you know brand

cach a Bitcoin you know when I talk to

my mom and I say she doesn't know what

ethereum is she doesn't know what crypto

is but if I say Bitcoin she's like oh

yeah actually now I know what you're

talking about and I think that

there's you know entrepreneurs who are

like actually I wouldn't mind tapping

into that brand recognition or that

liquidity or that you know a really

robust user community that Bitcoin has

so so a lot more cross-pollination there

um you had the chance to sit down with

with a few people from the ecosystem at

the booth right yeah I think mostly um

it was cool like it's uh like the

activity at the booth is pretty nice

pretty interesting um a lot of questions

about generally this multi narrative

like so what is CK e what is CK BTC what

does it mean to have gasless

transactions all this kind of stuff so

this is a lot of the uh conversation but

I think yesterday I think one of the

most interesting conversations I had

yesterday was actually with Austin um

one of the ecosystem members father

father father oh gosh now now my the

lips are so dry it's Austin's last name

is too hard to say with dry lips aat

this is

the so this is how I know him but um it

was super nice to talk to him actually

because he's working a lot with um IC

devs I think on

standardization and like when I talk to

let's say friends of mine from the

ethereum ecosystem or generally anyone

who's building kind of new tech stuff

and you try to see like what are the

problems that you face it's always like

a lack of clarity about what to do and

like the thing is like you want to build

fast and you want to build stuff that

you know you know will change but at the

same time you don't want to just build

random randomly so having some sort of

design patterns having some sort of kind

of Frameworks that you know you could

kind of build into so that like at least

some of the moving parts are removed and

so like having some sort of

standardization process like having some

standards for tokens for different types

of apps and like when you start thinking

about this in a cross chain World it

becomes very messy and so I think with

Austin a lot of the conversation was

about standardization and like how can

we advise things to be built so that

like we're all kind of speaking the same

language um so that not everything has

to not everything is built from scratch

basically um not everything is yeah

incompatible with each other um so yeah

like all of this I think is super

interesting and I think he's doing a lot

of work on this so I was super glad to

hear that because it really needs to

happen that's awesome yeah I was able to

have a beer with him last night and he's

I mean he's just uh well I didn't ask

how much we could share of what he's up

to but he's got he's got some plans um

uh that are pretty interesting and I'll

let him tell that story but that that

definitely you know that actually kind

of brings up um I hadn't really realized

this but I walking around the conference

I

like the story The Narrative the um the

the direction that the industry is going

is like so much different than it was

just two years ago and you're absolutely

right it does have this kind of chaotic

feel of like well what is important out

of all of this and what is how should

like you know think about some of these

multi-chain stuff and like how should I

compre like how should I frame this

within my own mental framework because

it's it's not just like I want to be

able to swap tokens back and forth like

people are starting to talk about like

like serious like this more morning I

was talking with uh two guys from two

different companies uh and both

companies are are um working on debit

cards physical debit cards that pay in

stable coin um and just the the you know

just talking with them and they said

actually gas is kind of a problem

because uh you know with a debit card

you want you want certainty in the in

the transaction fees and gas kind of

makes that a little bit more challenging

um so it's just kind of interesting here

and like I was like oh yeah actually I

never thought about I always think of

our gas lessness as like a developer

like a or a user experience um but

there's actually business uh

implications as well so there's all this

weird thinking about like hey how how

should we think in this new paradigm of

uh you know multi-chain for me this is

like super interesting like this is my

favorite part where you really get me

like on fire because like and it's not

so much talked about because it's hard

like it's hard to think it's a bit more

futur looking this sort of thing like

you know know I think a lot of the

conversations maybe this goes a bit off

Top This is a bit of a tangential

conversation now but I think a lot of

the topics that people discuss are very

kind of shortterm it's like we're

building now we're trying to like do

stuff it's like let's just play around

see how it goes see what catches let's

see what actually makes money see what

pumps we follow this we follow that we

ditch this we move on whatever like you

know this kind of

stuff um and like I think this is really

most of the narrative at the moment and

like there's kind of these short-term

trends that kind of um come and go some

of them stick like now for example pass

Keys is one everyone starts to realize

that pass Keys is like a hot thing right

now an NPC wallets and it's like okay

this one will probably stick around but

like everyone right now is talking about

NPC and pasis this is one thing but like

for me these are the things like okay

we've been doing this all along this is

like a normal part of the tech stack for

us but for me like the interesting thing

is like yeah when this thing actually

takes off like when the industry is

because it's clear it's going to now

like I think 2015 if you still had a

question mark over whether the industry

would survive or not is okay but like

it's 20 it's 10 years later now

basically and it's like the industry is

here like it's staying so like how is

the world going to look when we're all

using blockchains so and what does this

mean like you think about your

day-to-day life I get up in the morning

I make a c coffee I take a shower I go

on the train to work and you know I I

pay for yeah my stuff in the grocery

store I use my laptop at my desk I use

this and and it's like okay so where is

blockchain going to fit in all of this

and so like blockchain does payments it

does computation it does whatever so

like is my debit card exactly this thing

like is my debit card going to like come

from my bank account or from my crypto

account or where is this going to be

settled who's going to pay G ask like

what are the transaction fees going to

be like what is the speed going to be

like how would you like it to look all

this kind of stuff and the same when I

open my laptop I normally Google this

and that and I go on Gmail and I go like

I look at my centralized uh stuff I chat

on WhatsApp and I use slack and it's

like is this going to be the case like

will I use open chat or will I use

something else and um yeah how is it

going to be in the future in like

daytoday life I need to vote for

government stuff I need to vote for my

local football team how they should do

whatever you know like um I need to

participate in society how is this going

to be am I going to be a member of dows

that are not just some weird DG playing

with nfts and whatever like is my town

going to be a little da of its own that

makes decisions and yeah so I think for

me this is the like super interesting

conversation that's had only by a few

people like there are some events where

they really dig into these things here M

and like let's say at other like other

uh conferences like there's always one

or two events where you find these what

I think are like the real conversations

it's like okay we're going to build a

world

where I mean we want control over I mean

at first it was control over your

financials and then it was control over

your digital assets and now it's control

over your whole digital stuff which is

very much part of your day-to-day life

so how can we integrate those things and

how can we get around the annoying stuff

about crypto like gas or like um this

kind of lack of interoperability between

all the stuff and yeah so for me this is

the like yeah real this is real talk

yeah I you know like you mentioned like

the the towns the Dow towns like last

night uh we were at a party and uh I met

I'm trying to remember the city that

they're from but there it was guys from

City da um so City da is a well-known

Dow that has bought land in I think it's

Wyoming and um the Dow itself owns that

land and they mentioned that and I said

oh you know so I started talking about

that part of City da that I knew and

they said oh no no no no this is a

different site and a different like a

subsidiary Dow and it was just like that

moment of like oh this is spreading like

like and but you kind of hear that um

you know I mentioned the debit card you

know they were already talking about

like look they we're running a like

they're talking about running a business

and they're like it's not like it's not

that we go to the merchants and we say

hey instead of paying Visa 2 and a half%

you can pay us 1% I said no the the the

business model is you have to get the

users the merchants want whatever the

users have exactly and you have to get

somebody to swap out their credit card

in their wallet or their purse you have

to have them take out their credit card

and then put this debit card in the

place and they said that's a hard

problem but crypto you know cry crypto

can solve that we can do Point systems

you know like your credit card points we

can do that in a much better way we can

like incorporate nfts into this like we

can actually make this like a better

user experience for the users that's how

we're going to on board the users and

then the merchants will follow you know

the merchants will go wherever the users

are and you get the sense that you're

like oh we're actually going from that

messar around stage to the like actual

people building real companies that are

actually thinking about it from like a

market penetration perspective uh and so

it's just kind of really cool to to to

watch and and and see them explore you

see I mean even just maybe I always kind

of end up with you maybe I shouldn't be

saying this I love that you look over at

like the people who might be able to say

hey let's cut the mics off no but even

the people you see like I mean there are

people that you you've known from this

scene for years like and you see them

maturing and them growing up and them

being the sort of leaders of the field

now or of the industry basically and

actually forming the companies and

asking the hard questions and doing the

hard work that actually brings this

stuff to reality rather than just this

kind of playing around like testing this

and that and and like actually creating

a vision and building towards it and

it's really cool to see like that people

who started off as like these DJ crypto

kids now become the kind of serious

investors like um maybe it's uh silly to

say this but it's cool to see it

maturing for for sure oh yeah I had I

had a chance to interview um Dan from

dmail well I guess meet meet Dan from

dmail the CEO of um of dmail but also

chance to kind of interview him at the

booth and and get some content that way

um and he said a few things that I was

like just to like back up your point of

like that app uh so they built I mean

they they there's a bunch of story lines

there like they built on the internet

computer and then expanded um

multi-chain and that allowed them to to

scale their user base uh incredibly um

he mentioned a couple stats it was 8

million they've had 8 million unique

users uh and they've been only around

for two and a half years he said and 1

and a half million of them are monthly

active users and so you're like that's

pretty good retention you know 8 million

people have signed up one and a half

million are still using the app on a

routine basis um and then also those

kind of numbers like one and a half

million uh um users I'm like you've got

to be one of the biggest apps in crypto

he said yeah we're all we're often we're

all the time in the top 10 of dap radar

but he said there are some apps that are

getting you know getting better better

metrics of that but um he uh he it was

just a fun conversation to kind of like

hear how their business evolved to

multi-chain and how that basically just

unlocked all these communities and and

stuff and um and like what that's really

like meant for them and um I don't know

I was just really blown away he he uh I

can't remember I don't think he said

this on air but he jokingly was like you

know I I you guys don't ever like give

some stats on on dmail but I think we

actually probably have the most

canisters of of any

on the IC and cuz we always give open

chat the credit of that or hotnot we're

always talking about how much Cycles

they're burning and I was like oh you

know actually I probably should start

pulling up some stats I I don't think

I've ever analyzed Dil at all charts guy

I know well you have some work to do

yeah yeah well that's the problem you go

back home from this you're all energized

and then like I got to got to look at

the data um but yeah so it's it's just

kind of cool to see and that's I mean

again like dmail like they're just

they're not out to um you know they're

out to build an application they they've

got uh like this awesome like two-year

Vision in terms of like monetization and

target audience that they're looking at

they want to get into the Enterprise

World um like they really are clear of

like the value they bring to their users

it's not a d gen app like it's not like

they're just air they're airdrop farming

and and doing those like quick growth

hacks they're offering a product that

has a specific use case in a value

proposition and that's their like that's

how they're going about it so you get

this feeling of you're like okay this is

like you're serious yeah yeah growing up

yeah yeah just yeah that maturity which

is which is awesome so um in terms of

like e Denver at the main event any

other things kind of stand out and uh I

think like uh I hate to say it and I got

a bit criticized for saying this too

much but like it's the

Vibes I mean of course there's more than

the Vibes like we talk about the

industry maturing and people becoming

you know like a serious businessmen now

and whatever but like it really is this

nice Community Vibe like where people

come together there's like you know like

all the talks and all the boots and all

the events and all the parties and all

the chill out spaces and all the

hackathons and all the prizes and all

the merch and all the stuff and it's

just like I don't know for me this is

like the real highlight just seeing like

who's around who's building stuff people

are open like and it's really nice and I

think um like for me in particular being

here and trying to think how can

we like we have a lot to offer like we

talk you know we always talk about like

the features that we have to offer other

ecosystems and different parts of the

industry but for me it's super nice to

see like what can we take like I mean

this is a relationship we're trying to

build like it's a give and take

relationship it's not like you know just

pushing your own stuff on other people

and you know rejecting everything that

they have it's like okay what is going

on in your community and like

seeing how people build together how

ideas are formed like how people

actually then kind of productize and

Market things and like seeing the kind

of full flow this for me is super

interesting to see here like seeing yeah

just I mean there are small like um

patterns let's say that have emerged in

the eat ecosystem over the past well

almost 10 years about how and again it's

a bit of about standardization building

stuff like having this composability and

you know having kind of support and like

having really strong Community like

close close Community Vibes this is I

think what really helped it getting

going and it's like if we want to engage

in this world we need to take this like

we need to be part of this and like we

need to yeah like facilitate this and

otherwise I mean uh it's just not going

to happen and like that's one of the

nicest lessons I think uh it's like an

absolute pleasure to learn this because

it's such a nice thing to have to do

yeah I have been um I shouldn't say

pleasantly surprised but um because I

probably should expect this more but

there's definitely been a lot of

projects that have approached and just

said you know how can we how can we work

closer with the Internet or with

definity how can we and it's not just

like how do we get started building on

the internet computer it's more like hey

like how what do you guys need from us

yeah yeah like we wanted we wanted yeah

what can we offer you guys to get you

strategically interested in our in in

our Direction um so yeah a lot of lot of

contacts there to follow up on and um I

don't know it's just uh uh cool to see

because I I you kind of do get this like

ether the ethereum ecosystem is is tends

to think about the ethereum ecosystem

the internet computer's not part of that

or we've only recently become part of

that with with our evm RPC um so it's

kind of cool though to see like

you know the the the definity name is

really well known around the space the

internet computer name is really well

known around the space and now that

people are hearing about um you know our

RPC capabilities they're like oh okay

well yeah you're come come on into this

club and and uh and let's talk about

like how we can work together yeah and

it it is quite welcoming it's like okay

come on in let's show you how this works

like let's let us show you around town

let's uh like if you want to if you want

to come and play with this in this town

basically here's what you need to know

and for me this is like super valuable

because this is kind of like the kind of

information or the kind of feeling or

the kind of I don't know you can only

get by coming to these things like you

can't pick this up on crypto Twitter

like this I mean there's no

documentation for how communities work

you know I mean maybe there are some

blog posts or whatever but like if you

want to actually work with a group of

people where is the where is the

documentation like where is the prot you

know right and so this is something that

you only get by being here and for me

this is like the real highlight of being

at these types of events yeah yeah you

can't um as much as we want to live

digitally in web 3 there's still

something to be said about being face to

face you know and I mean the the feeling

that you get when you've talked to

somebody for like years online and then

you actually meet them in person and um

so that's actually been a really cool

thing you know obviously anyone you know

the ICP ecosystem you know everyone from

our community who's been here at Eber

they've been stopping by the the

definity booth and you know and you're

they're like hey you know it's me and

I'm like I I don't I don't know and then

they say their Twitter handle I'm like

oh yeah we've been chatting forever like

like this is so cool to meet you in

person and like to put a a a physical

body behind a picture human thing yeah

yeah like that that's been so much fun

um I loved uh yesterday I got to talk

with uh some of the people from octopus

Network so they're building omnity um

which is really just like the case study

for multi-chain in my opinion like what

they're building is just basically the

the the the vision for what we want

multi-chain of like real seamless

experience across the web3 landscape um

they put out a tweet earlier on uh I

think yesterday that that um I'd

recommend everyone go ahead and find um

actually I think you can see octopus

Network in the uh they're in the space

so hello um yeah yeah so everyone check

out their Twitter handle they they've

got a tweet in there that does a real

great job of going in depth of why super

yeah and so it just is again going into

that like the the theme of this

conference is definitely multi-chain

it's going under some different it

depends on who you talk to they'll say

multi-chain I've heard Omni chain

mentioned a lot um cross chain cross

chain

inability yeah chain abstraction account

account abstraction which is like I

guess like just a subset um probably um

I've seen that the other theme I've seen

also is monolithic uh everyone in the

ethereum community is like monolithic

like we want just one Tech stack are

they're moving away no I think like I

also see like that they're moving away

to this module like they're moving away

from this monolithic infrastructure to

this modular infrastructure where I can

take pieces of this execution

environment I can take pieces of Solana

or near I can take pieces of ICP I can

take pieces of like Celestia data

availability I can take I can take my

consensus from here my execution from

there my settlement here and uh so I

think this is also a huge narrative that

I've seen as well but yeah it's really I

mean if you're a developer that's really

what you want you you want to use the

tools you already know you don't want

have to learn a whole bunch of new tools

um and you also just want it like you

don't want complexity cuz if you're

already trying to if you're already

trying to push the envelope on Tech uh

and then you add complexity into that

you're just going to be beating your

head against a wall like over over and

over again so yeah it's uh and I mean

all these different parts have different

pros and cons and maybe in different

situations and different types of apps

some of them are more or less relevant

and so I think having this sort of

flexibility to choose the bits and

pieces that you want from the different

uh layers of the stock this is this is

great yeah you know um another topic

that's been really interesting and I

think you know everyone tries to time

their their news releases around eth

they want they want the conference

everyone talking about it um obviously

you mentioned Pass Key already with

coinbase coming out with their Pass Key

option um R we have also had their AO

announcement um and I've had a few

people approach and say hey we saw you

know we heard about AO or we saw the

press release and I just want to see

what's what's different between what

they're trying to do and what you guys

are already doing and I just I mean I

answer like well it's not it's not our

job to tell to tell why they're

different than us like we we you know

we've been here like

go ask them like they're here their

Booth is just around the corner go talk

to them and find out like what what the

difference is um so I have kind of felt

like that little bit of vindication of

like you know we we have been ahead of

the curve uh and and really you know

people don't want to say it but we're

kind of trend setting and and there

other projects are looking to what we're

doing and being like Oh that's a great

idea let's let's go ahead and go down

that road so I've heard people start

talking about like Hey we're going to

try to do a native Bitcoin integration U

that was been brought a few times um

it's and it's it's one of those things

um like in my opinion it uh and I think

this has been borne out time and time

again when you're the only one doing it

uh it doesn't it it's not it's not as

interesting as when other people do it

so for example like Bitcoin integration

is a great example of um you know we did

it and then all of a sudden ordinals uh

kind of kicks off this new interest in

it and and that only helps us it it's

not a like you know Stacks but they're

not release is not um it doesn't hurt us

that actually brings more awareness of

of our Bitcoin integration and both both

projects can benefit from it and you're

seeing it with um R weave AO as well

bringing this idea of you know storage

and compute in in a single platform is

very powerful and it's like yeah that's

that's right and so the more the merrier

because like that just brings more and

more validation to um you know the the

tech act that we've built and it brings

just more awareness of of what we've

done so it's been really fun to watch

that happen as well yeah it's

interesting actually um yeah to see it I

think validation is a nice thing because

I think at the you know like earlier on

in the kind of blockchain industry you

know

decentralization was God like this not

even decentralization but like numbers

like big numbers like uh huge amounts of

validators or huge amounts of

replication at least you had to have a

high Nakamoto I mean yeah like I mean

not that many people achieve a very high

Nakamoto coefficient but like at least

uh having numbers of replication uh

somehow was good and now it's like okay

well actually I mean if we do want to

use these things and if we do want to

have them in reality like having you

know I mean other things are needed and

it's cool to see that the kind of design

decisions that were made in the internet

computer in the early days are kind of

now

being um realized and accepted and maybe

even mimicked or whatever so it's really

cool to see uh it's yeah it's so like

you mentioned like the decentralization

that's a great example of what you're

talking about with maturity in the sense

of it was almost like we as an industry

we wanted decentralization because we

felt like that was all we offered the

world like that was our value

proposition and so the the more

decentralization the better and we had

to that's all we had to offer but now

you're starting to hear all these like

like decentralization is only a tool

right it like if you need to build a

product that needs decentralization then

it's an important tool but if your

product doesn't require a lot of

decentralization then sometimes that

replication Factor can slow you down and

and hurt your user interface like

there's other aspects to blockchain that

um that have now started to rise and

people starting to see like okay like

it's not all just about having a

decentralized version of something that

already exists it's actually more about

using this Tex act for you're so right

cuz I remember like when I was doing my

PhD so I studied cryptography and like

at the time blockchain is like obviously

super interesting to a cryptographer but

at the same time they were like but why

like why why do this okay it's

interesting sure but why does anybody

need this and like is this going to last

and like you know why not just use a

database like why not just why do you

need a distributed Ledger why not just

use a database and why not just use like

there was there were other ways to do

sort of decentralized payments where you

didn't need like a full blockchain or

whatever it's was like why not just use

these simpler things whereas now it's

like okay we've gone beyond like and it

was always the question about what's the

real use case here like when when

someone comes up with a real use case

then I'll care about blockchain this is

what a lot of the like cryptographers

were kind of saying at the time and um

but now it's like Aha and it was also

like also people within the blockchain

industry kind of as you were saying like

decent centralization was the thing that

we could offer so like it was always

about these were the metrics that we

chased and the same with like um and

like and the competition was what we now

call Web 2 like a cloud services or what

right and so when we talked about

computation or speed or whatever there

was always the comparison against oh

it's only you know 10x more expensive

than Amazon but you still get this you

know you get decentralization right

right so like these arguments were kind

of not very compelling because it's like

okay why do I need decentralization and

why do I have to pay 10 times more for

it and like no one really had the answer

and like maybe there isn't a good answer

to that question but now we start to see

that with all these kind of other

features that come around with this

maturity it's like aha these are the

things that Amazon cannot offer and

these are the things that are now

becoming so efficient that they can

compete in price and speed with like

traditional cloud service providers and

like uh this is kind of one of the other

things that a bit came out of um like a

few of the conversations during the week

that's kind of something that emerges as

an idea in in the community now that

like we we we're Beyond web 2 like we

are actually realizing web 3 and it's

not just about tokens or payments or

whatever but it is like let's say the

sort of Dow style thing like web 2 can't

really offer you a Dow right like you

can't really have I mean you need it's a

decentralized system like you can't have

this on a centralized system like it's

just it's as simple as that but the Dow

now is the use case for this and there's

also things like um like this open

information question this kind of came

up a lot there as well like um we need

open information because if you think

about even I mean so many things but

even for example AI models coming up

like in the future if these are all run

and closed systems I mean who knows what

is going in who knows what is happening

who knows what is coming out but these

whatever it is that's coming out is

training you is educating you is

informing you is you know is your friend

whatever so if this is all closed I mean

this is just crazy so I think yeah these

sort of use cases that emerge now and

even something like vet keys I think

this is are like having privacy like

decentralized priv privacy tools yeah

this is something that web 2 cannot

offer either like and so for me these

are the things that kind of web to can't

do that we now start to see being

realized in an efficient way yeah that's

that's like that's the perfect framing

right it's we've moved from an industry

that you know we're just basically

replicating what already existed on web

Tu and then calling it and then being

decentralized um to now one where we're

like actually we're building products

that can't be built on web too and it's

not like a decentralized version of what

already exists um yeah you know when

when you mentioned AI actually I'm

surprised there's not a lot of AI hype

at eat Denver I don't know if you've

heard heard I have seen some stuff but I

talked to people who

said that they saw a lot of cool stuff

so I haven't seen it myself but maybe

I'm just looking more too much at the

multi-chain uh narrative um I have my my

interests but uh I've heard that there's

a lot of cool stuff and like people

doing some serious uh decentral actually

there are some friends of mine who have

a small company who do like ZK ml so

like zero knowledge machine learning

they've been here giving some talks I

heard of another few companies that are

doing some like really interesting

decentralized AI stuff as well so I

think a lot of it is maybe it's kind of

Starling it's like maybe at the research

stages at the kind of prototype stages

at the proof of concept stages mhm but

not really um fully used and tested yet

so it's getting there I imagine maybe

next year you see really really a lot

but I think from the kind of research

perspective it's happening I see okay it

makes sense and I mean it it's a new

Avenue right it's a new um segment and

just as crypto and blockchain took you

know was given 10 years to find kind of

that like hey instead of just copying

the you know what already exists and and

moving it onto this Tech stack let's

actually find out new Innovative uses of

the tech St AI is going to need that

time on AI and blockchain at least right

to to kind of evolve we do have like El

Elna I know I was talking about them

this morning with um uh um it was a I

don't I don't know I don't want to say

too many I'm not going to say names but

it was a it was a um a a director at a

uh for director of basically blockchain

technology at a major US Financial

Institute and she was saying like yeah

I'm really disappointed and I was hoping

AI would take off and I'm not I haven't

seen it yet so far um although she was

on her way to uh Ani Summit so uh maybe

she's going to hear more about it today

but you know so I was mentioning Elna

and uh she was like oh wow you know an

llm in a smart contract like is that

possible and I was like yeah it's

possible so like we're still at that

like is it possible here somebody proved

it's possible exactly and now we have to

maybe start figuring out what's the

what's the product from there and so um

kudos to them I know for my I was able

to give a talk yesterday and that was um

that that idea of like thinking about

blockchain as uh Technologies with

interesting properties not just like a

token Ledger right is kind of a key key

part um of like look and you know pick

and choose just like how Uber was able

to say you know um GPS plus instant chat

messaging Plus credit card payments

online those three things can be

combined to form you know to something

that can replace taxes um that same like

concept is like I think where people are

starting to get to of like it's not just

about Bitcoin transactions

or holding holding Bitcoin it's actually

so like here's a great example I've been

showing people people really found this

uh impressive and I think I might be

giving away my million doll product idea

here but I'm gonna say it anyways

because I've been showing people that

I maybe yeah maybe I I'll delete the

Twitter space after this um but I've

been showing people that i' I inscribed

my wedding anniversary into Bitcoin

right and that's just one of those

simple things the reason I did it was

because I believe Bitcoin is the

database that will outlive all databases

and now my wedding date is on bitcoin

and so it'll outlive any other way I

could store that that kind of that

artifact of of my life and so um I know

it's kind of a cool cool use case of

thinking of the you know using Bitcoin

as a database yeah actually I mean I

also when I got married I also talked

about like we should have like a wedding

registry service on I'm sure it exists

but like a oh like a like a web 3

service just no I mean like some service

to do these sort of inscriptions or to

so yeah yeah okay so now I now there's

two people who agree this is a good

product uh this might be something I

also talked to somebody else during the

week who also thinks this is a good idea

are they building something no okay so

I've got a window of open yeah but

another thing I heard about actually now

that you say this kind of real world

life events um another thing that I

heard a lot this week multiple times is

about inheritance like solving this

inheritance problem in like uh physical

inheritance like uh passing down wealth

fromation like exactly like Bitcoin like

I mean suppose you hold a lot of Bitcoin

and you want um it to be released to

your kids or something if something

should happen to you um I think this is

also like a quite nice I mean this can

be all done

automatically um this yeah and I think

this is quite a nice way to have the

smart contract I think like very early

on in the like conversations about smart

contracts there was a lot of like talk

about okay they'll replace legal

contracts s because this is what people

knew and you compare it to what people

know and I think now it actually starts

to happen that people uh do start to

replace legal contracts with these kinds

of things but again it's because the

industry is maturing and it is because

we expect Bitcoin to last and it is

because we expect it to still have value

yeah it definitely it definitely feels

like it has gone from the uh like let's

just try around but really who knows if

this industry like it's the conversation

is very much like

we're we're here like there's real

Innovation going on and um I don't i'

the vibe is just so Dynamic and vibrant

it's it's been incredible and it it

comes like we it was just like four

months ago like we were in the doll

Drums of like the toughest time in

crypto right like the there has never

been a harder time for developers don't

talk about the past yeah but it doesn't

like exist anymore like when you're here

talking with people like it's almost

like that memory is is long gone and and

we're uh I don't know like how quick and

it and I think a lot of it is that

people kept building they kept their

head down and now that um you know mood

has changed uh everyone's popping their

head up and being like by the way this

is actually I've made these these

advancements in that time yeah exactly

and everyone's like wants to kind of

show off their their awesome work during

the during the hard times yeah it's very

cool actually I've seen a lot of

projects doing exactly this and I mean

people I don't know it didn't feel like

people disappeared from the or anything

while while there was this kind of hard

times yeah but uh it somehow it seems

yeah that they pop up and it's like whoa

you've been busy like this is so cool

like and they have like a long list of

stuff now to start releasing that

everything is kind of picking up again

right right it'll be it'll be

interesting to see what this this event

is like next year I think they might

have to expand to a new new building

I've heard rumors uh that they are and

so I mean it there's a lot of PE I don't

know what the numbers are but there's a

lot of people here in Denver ready to

talk about what they've been building

yeah it's cool I like to see it yeah any

uh I anything else so what has been the

uh highlight of your week what have you

learned what is like uh really what is

the memory that'll stick in your mind

forever oh gosh that's a hard question

what what what is the memory you would

inscribe what memory do I want to

inscribe um I had a chance to have lunch

with uh Bob Bley and Jordan last

yesterday and just some of the

conversation in term terms of like ways

to use Bitcoin uh was was really cool um

I got to see uh I feel like Jordan is

like top class uh knowledge but Bob was

Bob was kind of schooling him on some of

the things like the two of those minds

are going back and forth was really cool

um but I think honestly probably my

favorite part is just like meeting these

meeting meeting people who I've

interacted with online all these times

and like meeting him in real life and

seeing them as a like a human being and

not a pfp and um I don't know but you

know it's easy to kind of just you know

live in the digital world and then you

get out and you start seeing people and

what's going on and you're like holy cow

like it feels like um you know I don't I

have a lot of like Memories Back you

maybe many of the people who listen to

this or watch this uh won't um won't

know this time but like the early

internet when is that early I mean like

when you had AOL when you had to install

a DSP back in my day called in with the

modem and I remember just being like uh

like I'd read the news online and there

was like it was nobody was really

putting news online you know and then I

would uh go in a chat room and talk but

like that was the extent of the internet

and then and I would tell my parents

like this thing is like really cool and

stuff and my dad would be like well why

would I read the news online why would I

spend the time to log into a computer

and takes 10 minutes to get online so I

can read something when the newspaper's

going to come and and just not really

having the answers then to be like well

no this seems like the future cuz I was

too young but now it's gotten to where I

feel like our industry was in that state

maybe a couple years ago and just

getting that feeling of like oh actually

there's like legitimacy here and the

world is really about to like start to

experience it in a real way yeah that's

cool yeah I think for me one of the kind

of highlights someone actually I was

just walking yesterday with a web3

friend who know know me as my pfp

basically and then someone stopped me

and was like ah you're the vet Keys Girl

and I was like yeah I'm the vet Keys

girl um so it was really cool like that

to see that people are paying attention

to like the stuff that we're doing also

it's not just um the multi-chain stuff

but also a lot of the other tools on the

internet comp yeah oh gosh we didn't

even touch into like some of the other

stuff we're doing but I know we're

running out of time and uh I don't know

just everyone listening this just uh

it's a lot of excitement going on um you

know I feel really honored to be part of

the internet computer project and and

and the direction we're heading in and

um I don't just excited that I get to

watch everyone building out these

awesome tools uh that that uh that are

building out real businesses so I any

any closing words that uh no I think uh

yeah it was very nice thanks for having

me I think I'm excited for the year I

think a lot of stuff is going to happen

everyone's super bullish and uh yeah I

think it's going to be super great year

awesome well everyone Thanks for uh

tuning in and uh you'll hear more from

all the interviews and talks we do from

E Denver but a lot of content coming out

and and you'll hear you hear more uh

throughout the coming weeks so take care

thanks Ashen bye

bye