The big Brexit debate - BBC Newsnight

Summary

Ce débat public rassemble des membres de différents groupes politiques britanniques pour discuter des options de Brexit. Le ministre de l'Éducation, Nadim Zahawi, soutient l'accord du PM May, tandis que Marcus Fish de l'ERG préfère un Brexit sans accord. Nikki Morgan, initialement pour le reste, propose le modèle norvégien si l'accord échoue. Bill Esterson du Labour propose un référendum pour rejeter l'accord et Liila Moran plaide pour un second référendum. Les participants expriment leurs inquiétudes sur l'avenir économique et la souveraineté de l'immigration, soulignant l'importance de prendre des décisions éclairées.

Takeaways

• 🇪🇺 Nadim Zahawi soutient l'accord du Premier ministre car il permet de reprendre le contrôle de la libre circulation, de la pêche et de l'agriculture tout en garantissant des échanges confiables avec l'Europe et le reste du monde.
• 🔄 Marcus Fish, représentant le groupe de recherche européenne, croit que quitter l'UE sans accord est préférable à un accord qui lierait indéfiniment le Royaume-Uni à l'UE.
• 🎓 Nikki Morgan, s'appuyant sur un accord de type norvégien, propose un plan B en cas d'échec de l'accord du Premier ministre, évitant ainsi un Brexit chaotique.
• 👨‍💼 Bill Esterson, ministre des Affaires du Labour, critique l'accord pour ne pas assurer un commerce sans friction et pour ne pas protéger les services, les droits des travailleurs et la sécurité nationale.
• 🗳️ Leila Moran plaide pour un second référendum, estimant que le public devrait décider si l'accord proposé correspond à leur volonté initiale concernant le Brexit.
• 🤝 L'accord du Premier ministre est présenté comme un compromis difficile mais nécessaire pour respecter le résultat du référendum tout en préservant la relation avec l'UE.
• 🚫 La perspective d'un Brexit désordonné est rejetée par certains orateurs car elle pourrait nuire à l'économie et aux emplois, rendant les gens plus pauvres.
• 🔄 La liberté de mouvement est un point de discorde majeur, certains défendant l'importance de la finir pour récupérer le contrôle de l'immigration, tandis que d'autres soulignent les bénéfices économiques et sociaux de cette liberté.
• 🏛️ Les orateurs abordent la nécessité de prendre en compte les conséquences à long terme de chaque option de Brexit, y compris les implications constitutionnelles et économiques.
• 📉 Des inquiétudes sont exprimées sur les pertes économiques à court et à long terme du Brexit, mais certains soutiennent que c'est un prix à payer pour assurer l'indépendance et le contrôle des politiques nationales.

Q & A

Quel est l'argument principal de Nadim Zahawi pour soutenir le deal du Premier ministre ?

Nadim Zahawi soutient le deal parce il estime que c'est un compromis qui permet au Royaume-Uni de reprendre le contrôle de la libre circulation, de la pêche et de l'agriculture tout en permettant un commerce confiné avec l'Europe et le reste du monde.

Quelle est la position de Marcus Fish sur le Brexit ?

Marcus Fish représente la position de l'ERG (European Research Group) qui estime que quitter l'UE sans accord de retrait est préférable à l'accord proposé par le gouvernement, car il considère que l'accord actuel est un mauvais deal qui lie le Royaume-Uni à l'UE de manière permanente.

Pourquoi Nikki Morgan soutient-elle le modèle 'Norway Plus' en tant que plan B ?

Nikki Morgan soutient le modèle 'Norway Plus' en tant que plan B parce qu'elle pense que cela permettrait au Royaume-Uni d'accéder au marché unique via l'EFTA, de sortir des politiques communes de la pêche et de l'agriculture, tout en résolvant la question de la frontière entre l'Irlande du Nord et la République d'Irlande sans recours à l'arrière-plan.

Quelle est la stratégie de Bill Esterson pour améliorer l'accord sur le Brexit ?

Bill Esterson, représentant le parti travailliste, propose une nouvelle union douanière complète associée à un accord du marché unique qui assure des régulations communes, des normes et utilise les institutions communes avec l'UE, afin de réunir les votes et de guérir les divisions au Royaume-Uni.

Quels sont les arguments de Leila Moran en faveur d'un second référendum ?

Leila Moran soutient qu'un second référendum est nécessaire car l'accord proposé par Theresa May ne correspond pas à ce que les gens ont voté en 2016. Elle pense qu'il est important de soumettre l'accord au peuple pour qu'ils décident s'il s'agit vraiment de ce qu'ils souhaitaient.

Quelle est la préoccupation principale de l'auditoire concernant l'immigration ?

L'auditoire est préoccupé par le manque de contrôle sur l'immigration et la pression sur les emplois à faible rémunération. Ils soulignent également l'importance de la transparence sur qui vient au Royaume-Uni, combien de temps ils restent et les raisons de leur venue.

Pourquoi certains membres de l'auditoire pensent-ils que le Royaume-Uni souffrira économiquement après le Brexit ?

Certains membres de l'auditoire craignent que le Brexit ne cause des pertes économiques à court et à long terme, mentionnant que la valeur de la livre sterling a déjà chuté et que les coûts de la vie ont augmenté.

Quels sont les arguments des participants qui soutiennent qu'un Brexit ordonné peut être géré sans dommages économiques ?

Certains participants soutiennent qu'un Brexit ordonné peut être géré sans dommages économiques en établissant des relations constructives avec l'UE, en assurant la gestion des frontières et en évitant les perturbations des chaînes d'approvisionnement en temps réel.

Quelle est la position de l'ERG sur la possibilité d'un accord de libre-échange avec l'UE après un Brexit sans accord ?

L'ERG, représentée par Marcus Fish, soutient qu'il est possible d'avoir des accords de libre-échange bilatéraux avec l'UE après un Brexit sans accord, avec un accord tarifaire 'zero pour zero' comme accord provisoire.

Quels sont les arguments des participants qui pensent qu'un second référendum pourrait être une solution ?

Certains participants pensent qu'un second référendum pourrait être une solution pour clarifier les intentions du public après deux ans de négociations et pour permettre au peuple de décider s'ils sont satisfaits de l'accord proposé ou s'ils préfèrent rester dans l'UE.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Débat sur le Brexit et les différentes options politiques

Le paragraphe introduit un débat sur la stratégie du Royaume-Uni face au Brexit. Différents membres du public expriment leur préférence pour diverses options, y compris un second référendum, un accord sans accord, un accord de type norvégien, une motion de censure suivie d'une élection générale, ou le soutien à l'accord du Premier ministre. Nadim Zahawi, ministre de l'Éducation, soutient l'accord du PM, arguant que c'est un compromis qui permet de reprendre le contrôle de la libre circulation, de la pêche et de l'agriculture tout en maintenant des liens commerciaux avec l'Europe et le reste du monde.

05:01

😐 Arguments pour un Brexit sans accord

Marcus Fish, représentant le groupe de recherche européenne, défend la position qu'aucun accord, ou même un Brexit sans accord, serait préférable à l'accord proposé par le gouvernement. Il croit qu'il est possible d'établir des accords bilatéraux et des accords tarifaires provisoires avec l'UE, tout en évitant de se lier de manière permanente. Il critique l'accord gouvernemental pour être un mauvais deal qui donnerait à l'UE un contrôle excessif sur les politiques futures du Royaume-Uni.

10:02

🤔 La possibilité d'un plan B en cas d'échec de l'accord

Nikki Morgan, qui soutient initialement l'accord du gouvernement, reconnaît la nécessité d'un plan B si l'accord actuel échoue. Elle propose le modèle norvégien, qui implique l'adhésion à l'EFTA pour accéder au marché unique, tout en quittant les politiques communes de la pêche et de l'agriculture. Elle souligne que cela permettrait de résoudre la question de la frontière entre l'Irlande du Nord et la République d'Irlande sans recours au mécanisme de sûreté controversé.

15:03

😕 L'alternative de la politique de l'opposition

Bill Esterson, ministre des Affaires du gouvernement de la opposition, critique l'accord du gouvernement pour ne pas assurer un commerce sans friction ni soutenir les services, les droits des travailleurs, l'environnement ou la sécurité nationale. Il plaide pour une union douanière complète et une adhésion au marché unique, avec des normes et des institutions communes avec l'UE, comme une voie pour réunir le pays et guérir les divisions.

20:04

😠 Le besoin d'un second référendum pour valider l'accord

Laila Moran, plaidant pour un second vote, soutient que le deal actuel ne correspond à rien de ce que les gens ont voté en 2016. Elle croit que le peuple devrait avoir le choix entre l'accord proposé et la possibilité de rester dans l'UE. Elle critique l'accord pour être vague et pour ne pas mettre fin au Brexit, mais plutôt pour ouvrir la voie à des décennies supplémentaires de négociations.

25:06

🤔 Les implications économiques et la nécessité de compromis

Le paragraphe aborde les préoccupations économiques liées au Brexit et la perception que le pays subira des pertes économiques à court et à long terme. Certains membres de l'audience sont préoccupés par les conséquences pour les générations futures, tandis que d'autres sont prêts à accepter des pertes économiques pour assurer un Brexit ordonné. Les participants discutent également de la nécessité de compromis sur des questions telles que la libre circulation et la démocratie, et de la manière dont ces compromis affecteront le pays.

Keywords

💡référendum

Le référendum est un processus par lequel les citoyens votent directement sur une question politique ou législative. Dans le contexte de la vidéo, le référendum est au cœur du débat sur le Brexit, avec des discussions sur une éventuelle seconde consultation pour valider ou non le deal proposé par le gouvernement. L'exemple clé est l'argument de Leila Moran qui soutient que le peuple devrait avoir le dernier mot sur le sort du Royaume-Uni en Europe.

💡Brexit

Le Brexit fait référence au processus par lequel le Royaume-Uni quitte l'Union européenne. Il est le thème central de la vidéo, avec les intervenants discutant des différentes options politiques pour atteindre une sortie de l'UE. L'expression est utilisée à plusieurs reprises pour décrire les implications économiques, politiques et sociales de la sortie de l'UE.

💡Parlement

Le Parlement est l'assemblée législative du Royaume-Uni, composée de la Chambre des communes et de la Chambre des lords. Dans la vidéo, le Parlement est mentionné en relation avec le processus décisionnel concernant le Brexit, et le rôle des députés dans l'approbation ou le rejet des accords proposés par le gouvernement.

💡Accord de retrait

L'accord de retrait se réfère au plan détaillé pour la sortie du Royaume-Uni de l'Union européenne. Dans la vidéo, les participants discutent de l'accord proposé par le gouvernement et de ses implications, y compris les questions de la libre circulation, de la pêche et de l'agriculture.

💡Norvège Plus

Le modèle 'Norvège Plus' est une option discutée dans la vidéo où le Royaume-Uni resterait dans le marché unique de l'UE via l'accord EFTA, tout en quittant les politiques communes de la pêche et de l'agriculture. Nikki Morgan mentionne ce modèle comme une alternative possible si l'accord du Premier ministre échoue.

💡Confiance

Le vote de défiance est un moyen par lequel les membres du Parlement peuvent exprimer leur perte de confiance dans le gouvernement. Bill Esterson mentionne la possibilité d'un vote de défiance suivi d'une élection générale comme un moyen pour le travailliste de négocier un meilleur accord.

💡Marché unique

Le marché unique est une zone de libre-échange au sein de l'UE qui permet la libre circulation des biens, des services, du capital et des personnes. Plusieurs intervenants discutent de l'impact de la sortie du marché unique sur l'économie britannique et les opportunités de maintenir un certain niveau d'accès.

💡Libre-échange

Le libre-échange fait référence à la facilitation des échanges commerciaux entre les pays sans restrictions tarifaires ou non-tarifaires. Les participants discutent de l'importance d'un accord de libre-échange entre le Royaume-Uni et l'UE après le Brexit.

💡Immigration

L'immigration est l'un des principaux sujets de débat dans le contexte du Brexit, avec des discussions sur la fin de la libre circulation des travailleurs de l'UE. Les intervenants abordent les défis et les opportunités de la mise en place d'un nouveau système d'immigration pour le Royaume-Uni.

💡Divorce amiable

L'expression 'divorce amiable' est utilisée par Nadim Zahawi pour décrire son approche favorable à l'accord du Premier ministre, suggérant que le Royaume-Uni devrait quitter l'UE de manière ordonnée et coopérative, plutôt que de manière chaotique ou conflictuelle.

Highlights

Nadim Zahawi supports the PM's deal, arguing it allows control over free movement, fishing, and farming, and enables confident trade with Europe and the world.

Marcus Fish from the ERG opposes the current deal, advocating for a clean break from the EU to avoid permanent shackles and to reset negotiations.

Nikki Morgan backs the PM's deal but suggests a 'Norway plus' model as a Plan B if the current deal fails, emphasizing leaving the EU while addressing the Irish border issue.

Bill Esterson criticizes the PM's deal for failing on various fronts and proposes a new customs union with a single market deal as an alternative.

Laila Moran calls for a second referendum to let the public decide on the final Brexit deal, arguing that the original vote did not specify the current terms.

Audience members express diverse views, with some favoring a no-deal Brexit for long-term benefits and others concerned about short-term economic pain.

Nadim Zahawi emphasizes the importance of the deal for defining the UK's future and calls for careful consideration by parliamentarians.

Marcus Fish argues against the government's deal, claiming it gives too much control to the EU and suggests alternative arrangements for trade.

Nikki Morgan outlines the 'Norway plus' model, explaining how it would allow the UK to leave the EU while maintaining certain benefits.

Bill Esterson highlights the failures of the current deal and the need for a comprehensive customs union and single market deal to unite the country.

Laila Moran stresses the importance of public consent for the final Brexit terms, advocating for a second vote to validate the deal.

Audience discussions reveal concerns about the economic impact of Brexit, with differing opinions on whether short-term losses are acceptable.

Nadim Zahawi counters arguments against the deal by asserting its benefits for trade and sovereignty, and its alignment with the Brexit referendum's outcome.

Marcus Fish rejects the idea of a managed no-deal Brexit, asserting that side agreements can mitigate potential issues without a formal withdrawal agreement.

Nikki Morgan addresses concerns about the 'Norway plus' model, explaining how it differs from EU membership and provides more control over immigration.

Bill Esterson argues that the current deal does not meet the needs of the UK's economy and services, and that a new approach is necessary for a successful Brexit.

Laila Moran discusses the ambiguity of the Brexit process and the need for clarity, suggesting that a second referendum could provide a clearer direction.

Transcripts

well back here we have members of the

public ready to tell us which option

sounds best to them we'll hear from

leila moran backing a second referendum

from marcus fish from the european

research group he believes any deal or

no deal is better than this nikki morgan

who's behind a norwegian style after

agreement if the pm's deal fails bill

esterson labour's business minister who

believes a vote of no confidence then a

general election would allow them labor

to negotiate a better deal but we start

with the education minister nadim zahawi

who's backing the pm's deal welcome

nadim your minute starts when you reach

the lecture

thank you very much um i before entering

parliament i built a business in the uk

and across europe and the rest of the

world i voted for brexit because i think

europe is heading towards a single

budget um still believes in free

movement and of course let's talk about

a single european army which i don't

think the british people will buy into

why is this deal the right deal because

i think this deal is a compromise it's

uncomfortable but it's uncomfortable for

both sides what does it do for us it

allows us to take back control over free

movement of course but then also fishing

and farming and allows to trade

confidently with europe and trade

confidently with the rest of the world

the two other extremes re-running the

referendum will be divisive and will

tear the country apart and a disorderly

brexit i think will hurt the economy and

hurt jobs and make people poorer and

that's not what they want us to do which

is why i think it's the right thing to

back the prime minister and deliver this

deal which actually did safeguard jobs

but delivers on the promise we made the

instruction we had from the british

people that we must leave the european

union that is why this is the right deal

it will define the country for the next

hundred years

and you have to think very carefully

including all my colleagues in

parliament which i think when they

scrutinize this deal they will back it

nadives are we thank you very much

nadeem they're backing um the

government's deal he is theresa may for

the purposes of tonight um marcus fish

we're going to invite you up next marcus

fish represents the erg position that's

say any deal is better than this deal

possibly even no deal marcus well this

this is a historic moment in our uh

country we we have to not give in to

fear and we have to do the best for the

people who

rely on us in parliament to to get a

good arrangement with the eu but operate

as separate jurisdictions there is

nothing wrong with with leaving without

a withdrawal agreement we actually can

have lots of side agreements we can we

we can do a zero for zero tariff and

quantities deal as a provisional deal

but the the the one thing we mustn't do

though is shackle ourselves to the eu

permanently which is what the government

is proposing

what it's proposing is gives massive

hostages to fortune in the future it's a

a permanent arrangement whereby they

could control what our trading

arrangements are

where whether we have

freedom of movement money it's it's a

really really bad deal and almost

anything is better than this and i

certainly won't be supporting it

and we need to reset these negotiations

and and stand up to the eu when i've

been to the eu and talk to member states

they've said they would love to help the

uk

achieve that but while we've got a

government that is insisting on

capitulating and insisting on this high

alignment model they've got no basis on

which to go to the commission and help

us do it gently catching your eye marcus

fish thank you very much indeed

let's invite nikki morgan now nikki is

going to vote with the government but

recognizes that if it doesn't go through

it maybe

that an amendment is needed just

describe what you are now recommending

nikki well good evening and uh thank you

for

all being here being so interested and i

think this this really matters this vote

that we're going to have i think as

nadim has said that no negotiated

agreement is ever going to be perfect no

side is going to like it it's always

going to involve a compromise i will be

supporting the prime minister in that

agreement when it's presented to the

house of commons i'd like to think that

it's going to go through but if it

doesn't then i think a responsible

government has to have a plan b and that

plan b that i believe can command a

majority in the house of commons is

something like the norway model norway

plus which involves access to the single

market via efta the uk was a founder

member of efta it would mean we leave

the common fisheries policy the common

agricultural policy we would be leaving

the eu as a former remainer that might

pay me to say it but that is what people

voted for 17 million voted for change in

june of

2016. it would also mean we had part of

a customs arrangement which would deal

with the issue of the border between

northern ireland and the republic of

ireland but we wouldn't need the

backstop which is what is causing so

much angst amongst my colleagues and

many mps across the house of commons it

would be a way forward to make sure that

we do leave the eu we don't crash our

economy who respect what people voted

for in june of 2016. and for those

reasons as i say i hope that the deal

does get through the prime minister has

put on the table if it doesn't there has

to be a plan b that avoids a

catastrophic no deal brexit nikki thanks

very much nikki morgan then offering a

plan b to the government's

first attempt at the vote and bill i'm

going to invite you up now um bill

esterson is speaking for labour as their

business minister and you're going to

tell us bill

uh why you need something more radical

than the deal itself

well thank you very much emily and good

evening to everyone

the conservatives have had two years to

sort out a deal and they can't even

negotiate with themselves let alone

with anybody else and the result is a

deal that is neither fish nor foul

it fails to deliver frictionless trade

or

any kind of support for services it

fails on workers rights and on the

environment it fails on national

security and of course it fails to

prevent a hard border in ireland

so labour will be voting against this

deal

and we will be doing everything we can

to stop a hard brexit

no deal

as well that's very very important

we think there's an alternative we think

there's a much better way forward a way

that can unite

lee voters and remainers that can start

to heal the divisions in our country and

that arrangement is a comprehensive new

customs union

with

combined with a single market deal that

delivers common regulations common

standards and uses the common

institutions with the eu that's a way

forward it's a way of healing the

divisions and bringing the country back

together again and the government should

come forward with it and get agreement

on it in the house of commons

bill thanks very much indeed uh laila

moran is going to tell us why we need a

second vote a second referendum

uh well thank you for doing this um and

i think it's quite simple

we were told that this deal is it the

prime minister has told us this is all

that we've got and i don't think that

there is anything better than putting it

to the people to ask is this what you

really wanted because as we've seen from

tonight there isn't a consensus in

parliament for if parliament wants this

deal it pleases nobody it's a deal that

makes us poorer and makes us rule takers

but not rule makers the question then

has to be is this what you voted for and

if it isn't then we need to have the

option to remain in the eu this is the

comparison we need to make this deal

that theresa may has brought back or the

current deal that we've already got and

to those who say oh just get on with it

believe me i am as bored as everyone

else with brexit let's just talk about

something else look at this deal 26

pages at the end

that say a vague political declaration

this canada deal is nearly 1600 pages

long so if you think that this deal

represents the end of brexit and we can

get on with it don't be fooled it's not

the end it's the start of more talk

about brexit for maybe another decade to

come

leila moran thank you very much have a

seat we're going to hear now from uh you

you all held your concentration

incredibly well then i'm sure and

there's a lot of stuff that we packed

into five minutes and we'll invite our

mps or politicians to answer any of your

questions um darren i'm going to start

with you our audience i should say were

with us here on friday to predict

whether the deal um on friday would get

the sign up from the eu this weekend and

many of them are back a balance of three

people who voted remain three who voted

leave one who was a remainer but is now

um weighing up different options and

they're going to tell us who's

convincing us this time round um so

darren

who

made the most sense to you which of

these positions would you urge your mp

to get behind

i i i would put myself behind what

marcus is saying um

i believe that what marcus is saying is

the ultimate backstop for the situation

where we're currently at and um

actually listening to all all five you

know all five of you speaking it was

really interesting that you know nadine

for instance you spoke about we're

talking about something here is going to

affect our country for 100 years but

it's not you know unilateral ability for

us to exit this and

you know there is no article 50 for this

deal and marcus obviously you talk about

this isn't about um

being scared of of a no deal there's you

know 85 percent circle of our trade is

dealt with on you know outside of the eu

some of the great agreements some on wto

wto terms i mean but all three of you

nikki you know you're back in the deal

but then saying actually you've got a

plan b

it's it you know actually there's i've

got a little faith in in a lot of the

positions unfortunately but you have got

a little faith in no sorry i have little

faith okay

so you would say marcus is the most

clear-cut which is just get out and work

it out from there on yeah i think so but

but in in the way that actually it it we

will it will in my opinion cause

short-term pain but i believe this deal

gives us medium or long-term

fundamental constitutional issues in our

nation nazra you were torn weren't you

you were torn

this time round i know you were a

remainer what did you hear yeah i mean i

want to point towards the two

ladies layla and nikki to say that

actually

what you say i i totally agree with we

need more detail we we're in the

situation that we're in because we

rushed through without having the

information that was necessary to enable

us the public to make a informed

decision and we're back in that exact

same position now where we're rushing

through

in is it a a week's time where we've got

to make another decision without little

information but there's very different

perspectives there are so nikki is

basically saying get behind the pm and

then we'll see what happens and leila is

saying you were misinformed let's start

again yeah and i would say in the

majority i'm with layla because you know

as you say where's the detail how

you've put a blindfold on people and

asking them to make a decision can i ask

at this point who would be more behind

layla

and who would be more behind marcus

oh sorry

okay and then go on you were going to

turn that back tell us where you are

then

with that lovely gentleman over there

one hundred percent so you're you would

back you wouldn't want your mp to back

theresa may's deal 100 okay and there

wasn't anything that he said that

worried you about a backstop or about

darren's worries that you'd be caught in

something that you couldn't get out of

the reason i'm sitting here and these

learned gentlemen and ladies are sitting

there because they know far more about

what's going on than we do we know what

we what we know

but they are members of parliament for a

reason

we're not

so

and being a conservative born and bred

all my life i will back prime minister

may

i i i just

it's gonna be hard for everybody yeah

it's gonna be a rocky boat but we've

just got to sit it out and put faith in

the government that we have elected and

put faith in the vote that we voted

before

it's probably quite reassuring uh two

years after referendum to see that there

is still faith somewhere along the lines

in the parliamentary system um i don't

know what

this is such an important decision it's

gonna as everyone has been saying it's

gonna affect our generation and every

generation for the rest of our lives um

and it only seems fair that it goes back

to the same people um who initially

voted for brexit but who didn't vote for

this deal

and we we have the right to decide

whether this deal is the way forward

let me ask you at some point each one of

these five is asking for a compromise on

something if you go with layla you are

compromising on democracy on the purity

of the first vote if you go with nadim

you are compromising on if you like

taking back control right at some point

you're not going to get your full

control

but you can win

right so you think nobody can win the

whole thing is going to be a give and

take anyway what are you prepared uh let

me ask omar what are you prepared to

compromise on what is your compromise is

it freedom of movement is it the economy

even if it's in the short term i think

for me to back up any of the

speeches that we've heard i would say

nikki's deal sounds more

you know promises that were made before

the referendum nothing is being

delivered so

we we need to have a second plan but

when we have a second one why should we

actually

i mean go with the first plan anyway

because that's not working at this

moment

so why would you back up the first plan

if you already have a second plan which

you ought to put forward for let's just

just understand this nikki to get to get

into the after norway this would be a

compromise on freedom of movement we

would have to allow freedom of movement

continue

under the ea agreement is the definition

of free move to workers not freedom of

movement as under the eu agreement so it

is a difference um and there's also an

emergency break uh it that can be uh in

norway if it's the same as norway um

whether it's to live or work people can

come and go throughout the eu that's

what they've signed up they can but of

course we'll also have a new immigration

system whereby we're going to have

people registering so we will know and i

think a lot of people actually the

concern about immigration was not

knowing who's coming here how long

they're coming here for why they're

coming and when they should be going

home so there's lots more that the uk

government proposes to set out

of control of immigration

well

fanned by some of the politico we

haven't helped matters politicians over

over the last few decades in a way that

we have spoken about immigration lots

more that could be done in order to give

people reassurances

the question you were asking sorry sorry

it's been already two years since the

referendum has taken place

if we are to go with any deal could you

assure any days or any num i mean any

timeline when exactly it's going to take

place or is it going to continue for the

next four or five years well the plan

would under you know i think variously

so the uh withdrawal agreement obviously

uh potentially gets ratified next month

uh by the uk parliament that has to be

approved by the eu parliament we will

leave the european union on 29th of

march next year we enter what's called a

transition period that ends at the end

of 2020 and under what i'm obviously if

we were end up with the norway you would

go into the after at that stage i think

if the prime minister's deal uh is

approved and actually hopefully by that

point you've got a new agreement setting

out a new trading relationship between

the eu and the uk if that new

agreement's not in place then you end up

with this irish backstory would freedom

of movement be a red line for any of you

would you say we have to end freedom of

movement that's the most important thing

you lynn

okay angela

yes i think so so you would say i cannot

accept or i would not want to support

any brexit deal that's still allowed for

freedom of movement is that right

exactly darren you were you were a

leader but you were very pro freedom of

movement where do you sit now yeah i

mean i i i still believe in freedom of

movement as a principle but ultimately

we

look the problem is is we're always

debating about where we're at today and

trying to form our opinions on what we

really believe in but the mistakes were

made with immigration like you said over

the previous decades

so it's it's it's a really hard question

to answer really i mean it's shutting

the gate after the horse immigration was

not in any way a top five uh priority of

mine for voting to leave but i

appreciate that isn't the case for a lot

of leavers that's really interesting so

actually which of which of our mps here

would say that whichever party you're

from we made a mistake on on overselling

the negative side of immigration who

thinks who would say to the voters

clearly that's the case you do bill

would you say that would you say that

labour overstated the evils of

immigration i think we definitely made

mistakes in government the point is what

we've now got it's not mistakes in

government but in terms of do you think

broadly there are net ills or net gains

from immigration

our employers need migration in big

numbers for our economy to be successful

for our public services to be successful

the problem now is we have an

immigration system it is all about

artificial caps when it should be about

the needs of employers and that's the

big mistake the current government

it was not just the pm but obviously the

home secretary that introduced those

caps was that wrong those numbers so

first of all um if we go back to

the question you asked earlier so during

the labour years when you had the

accession countries like poland coming

in

germany and italy and france chose a

seven year holiday before they allowed

that movement to happen we didn't we got

the numbers wrong and i think part of

that is not people not anti-immigration

i'm immigrant stocks of this country

they're anti-the rate that it took place

so fast and put pressure on low-paid

jobs so the reason i think prime

minister is so

serious about wanting to

have our own immigration policy so we

have people that we want in this country

who can you know wherever the shortages

are that we want to attract this country

so that actually you increase

productivity you don't put pressure on

the lowest paid people in our country

that's the big driver for this for part

of this deal but people voted to brexit

on all sorts of reasons um

we're just finding out some of those

all i'm saying is it's a compromise at

the end of the day what i'm saying to

you here is look you know we've decided

that we leave because europe is moving

in a direction which i don't think the

british people ever supported so first

of all we could have always had more

checks and balances with freedom of

movement there was always the facility

for us to say who could come they could

not stay for more than three months

without a job that other countries

already do this and we had that facility

we didn't use it but it's not just about

overplaying the negatives what we didn't

also do is probably talk about the

positives of freedom of movement now

think of the number of nhs workers who

are part of our system all those eu

citizens who contribute to our society

they are helping the economy and

politician after government after

government have been complicit in

playing up how bad they were and in fact

they are we are now seeing the great uh

contribution they made to our society

and it's us who's going to suffer the

one thing we all agree on is that

whatever we go down now will take

compromise so we've talked a little bit

about compromise on freedom of movement

what about compromise on the democratic

deficit that a second referendum would

involve who would be willing to see a

second referendum who believes

no you would okay so you don't think

that that would be somehow a betrayal of

you know the way your friends brexiteers

have voted no because things have

changed over the past two years and

we've got a very different

um position now there's a very different

offer of what brexit is we didn't know

what brexit would be when we originally

had the first referendum could any of

you could any of you sell a second

referendum agreed to leave it's like

saying oh we don't like it can we try

again please no what we do what we

agreed was to leave but what we didn't

agree on was that destination and that's

not that's not our job to agree on the

destination our job was to say do we

want to be part of the eu or not and

but the problem with the deal as it

stands now is it looks like no one wants

it right so if you were a remainer you

recognize it's going to hurt the economy

but if you were a leader then you don't

want it it's not going to hurt it's

still going to be rocky

leave it out but if you like it then you

can vote for the deal so again so what

was this but if in the in the referendum

in the referendum what we would say is

that you've got the deal or you stay in

it's like deleting a computer file if

you say no i don't really want this do

you stay with them let's just do a quick

check bill could you sell um a second

referendum to your constituents

well the thing to do is follow the

policy we agreed at our conference which

is a step-by-step approach we've got to

get through these things do you think in

your heart you could sell them a second

reference we've got to get through these

votes i think in time we may get we may

well get to a second referendum that's

why we we left it on the team it

wouldn't be a bad thing well

if that's the right thing for the

country at the time absolutely yeah the

point is to do this thing in the right

order i do support a second referendum

for some of the reasons we've already

discussed i've got lots of people in my

constituency who absolutely want there

to be a second vote but at the end of

the day i think we have a representative

democracy exactly as the lady has said

and actually we 650 are selected in 2017

to take these decisions to scrutinize

the agreement on the table to listen to

what people are saying and to make that

judgment on the 11th of december if we

have enough referendum we cut across our

represented democracy and we will ask

questions about well why do we have a

parliament don't i want to bring you and

go like later i just this

i believe this commentary that comes

around a people's vote second referendum

it's a misnomer when we talk about uh we

didn't know what we was voting for

because we did there's an argument for

that and i would counter that argument

but let's look at the here and now

you're proposing if i understand

correctly that we would have a

referendum with a choice of the

accepting of the withdrawal act as it

currently stands or remaining in the eu

well if you take either of those options

both lead us on a path where we do not

know where it will end because this is a

problem with the

drawer like there's so much ambiguity

look at the discussion the debates will

we get our waters back can we control

this on what time scales will the

transition appear

hang on later one second

so that's one option the second option

to vote to remain

in 20 years will we be in a single

currency will there be a european armed

army what what will the european project

look like this this commentary that we

do not know where we're going to be

applies to every single option applies

to the eu

but we would at least be at the table to

make those decisions

why should we as a public after having

our biggest democratic expression of

will

allow our government to mismanage this

process for two years and to come back

and say this is a terrible deal take it

or remain okay we set a precedent for

this there's one more compromise i want

to talk about which is whether people

feel that economically we will be worse

off can i just ask for a raising of hand

which of you here can say we will be

better off after brexit

absolutely

okay

okay so so

for our audience here

if we have short-term economic losses or

even longer-term economic losses is it a

price price worth paying israel

no absolutely not i mean

moving past our generation onto the next

generations that are coming through um i

think we'll be paying the price for the

decisions that are made in haste blindly

today for many generations angela do you

disagree with that or do you think that

we won't suffer at all economically

what's your sense they will suffer i

think to start off with i think they'll

be sort of like growing pains being out

there on our own but everything is

unknown unless we take the upshot option

of trying how do we know

so can i see a raising of hands from

from our audience here who would say

it's worth whatever economic pain there

is

to get on the right

or on the brexit place

not whatever but no i mean you know it's

worth paying i think we're already

paying off the prices i mean looking at

the current economic status pound value

has dropped so dramatically and

everything has just gone household the

expenses has gone up

by about the level that a lot of

commentators said that the pound was

overvalued by and it's

so so the reason i'm backing the prime

minister's deal is because actually an

orderly exit when you've been married

for 40 odd years you can go for an

acrimonious divorce or you have an order

a friendly divorce say look we can stay

friends we can trade together but we're

leaving we don't want to walk down so we

leave on the 29th of march just let me

finish this sorry i think if we you know

my instinct as

uh sort of someone who was in business

going into politics is if we deliver the

prime minister deal you'll see the

markets react positively

um to that deal including the pound you

saw it immediately when when the markets

thought things were not going well not

just financial services and property

companies but retailers got hit

immediately so i think if we have a

disorderly brexit which is where i think

we will respect where marcus is at no it

isn't that you will hurt the economy

he's shaking his head that is absolutely

not not the case that we can absolutely

have a

managed uh

situation uh when when i've looked at

the actual numbers uh behind this the

government's fear-mongering is a managed

situation do you mean a no deal brexit

no look we we are going to have a

constructive relationship with with our

eu friends we are not going to walk into

the the atlantic and

we don't need a withdrawal agreement to

do that there are lots of side

agreements that we can do

managing our borders is not going to

upset our just-in-time supply chains

it's complete fear-mongering by the

government

they have over-estimated

they've overrated they've overestimated

the non-tariff barrier cost by 15 times

in there

so there's a lot of disagreement with

what we are saying and yet

and you

are going to walk through the same bit

of the lobby in the house of commons

well let's see what happens

you're going to vote against the

government right well

the rgb could yet to back down couldn't

they but uh you know these these things

send happenings do you support the

nikki's

nonsense we saw figures today showing

the economy being 3.9 percent lower as a

result of this deal than if we stayed in

the european union

without a deal it was 1.66

thank you very much indeed