Truth in Telecoms, Robert Vis Part 1
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Truth in Telecoms,' the host engages in a candid conversation with Johnny, the 'viz,' discussing his unique views on various topics and his journey in the telecom industry. They delve into the evolution of Bird, reflecting on the company's strategic shift from SMS to CRM, prompted by market changes and the need for innovation. The discussion also touches on the challenges faced by companies like Twilio and CSE, the impact of fraud and corruption in the industry, and the importance of adapting to technological advancements. The conversation is filled with humor and insights, offering a behind-the-scenes look at the telecom world.
Takeaways
- 😀 The host expresses admiration for 'the viz', appreciating his unique views on various topics and his rarity in the industry.
- 💬 The conversation touches on the importance of having a strong online presence and the influence of social media, as 'the viz' is followed for his opinions on platforms like X.
- 🎤 There's a humorous exchange about nicknames, with 'the viz' being a local nickname that reflects the culture of giving nicknames in certain regions.
- 📈 The discussion highlights the significant market capitalization loss in the telecom industry, with companies like Twilio, Cinch, Bandwidth, and Ring experiencing declines.
- 🚀 The guest, Robert, is praised for his company's successful transition from SMS to CRM, escaping the downfall of the SMS market at the right time.
- 🤝 There's a mention of past business dealings and the strategic importance of humor and relationships in the industry, as well as the impact of one individual, Allan, on significant industry events.
- 📱 The conversation delves into the evolution of the telecom industry, with a focus on the shift from APIs to CRMs and the need for an abstraction layer for brands.
- 💰 The script criticizes certain industry practices, such as prepayments to carriers and the funding of corruption in the gateway business, which is seen as detrimental to the industry's health.
- 🌐 Robert discusses the global ambitions of his company and the necessity to move beyond SMS to remain competitive and innovative in the changing landscape of telecommunications.
- 📉 The script reflects on the decline of the SMS market and how it was affected by factors like fraud, the desire for cheaper prices by brands, and the carriers' strategies, leading to a loss of interest from investors.
Q & A
What does the speaker admire about 'the viz'?
-The speaker admires 'the viz' for his unique views on various topics such as climate, free speech, Europe, and more. He also appreciates that 'the viz' is not afraid to voice his opinions, even if they put him in the minority.
Why did Allan get a haircut?
-Allan got a haircut because 'the viz' showed up, as mentioned by the speaker, implying that 'the viz' has an influence or a level of respect that prompted Allan to make a change in his appearance.
What is the significance of the name 'the viz'?
-The name 'the viz' is a nickname that originates from the speaker's local culture where everyone has a nickname. It is not something that was created but is a common practice in the area he is from, reflecting old European traditions.
Why does the speaker believe that CRM is becoming more important in the telecom industry?
-The speaker believes that CRM is becoming more important because APIs are becoming less important as businesses prefer to focus on their core business rather than managing multiple APIs. CRM provides an abstraction layer that simplifies the complexity for brands.
What does the speaker think about the state of the SMS industry?
-The speaker thinks the SMS industry has seen better days. He mentions that it has become less fun due to increased fraud, carriers raising prices, and brands wanting lower prices, leading to a less profitable and more corrupt industry.
Why did the speaker decide to transition his business away from SMS?
-The speaker decided to transition his business away from SMS because of the industry's shift towards multiple channels and the need for an abstraction layer like CRM. He also saw the writing on the wall with the decline in SMS's importance and the corruption within the industry.
What does the speaker think about the role of fraud in the telecom industry?
-The speaker believes that fraud has been detrimental to the telecom industry, as it has led to an unsustainable business model where carriers raise prices, while brands demand lower costs, creating a corrupt ecosystem.
Why does the speaker consider the industry's move towards CRM a positive development?
-The speaker sees the move towards CRM as positive because it allows for a more customer-centric approach, providing brands with a single point of contact for multiple communication channels, which simplifies their operations and aligns with their core business focus.
What is the speaker's opinion on the role of customer behavior in shaping the telecom industry?
-The speaker believes that customer behavior has been a significant factor in shaping the telecom industry, as they are demanding more sophisticated solutions that go beyond traditional SMS, pushing the industry towards more integrated and multi-channel communication platforms.
Why does the speaker mention the importance of abstraction layers in the telecom industry?
-The speaker mentions the importance of abstraction layers because they allow businesses to focus on their core operations without getting bogged down in the technical complexities of managing multiple communication channels and APIs.
Outlines
😀 Welcoming Remarks and Industry Insights
The speaker warmly welcomes the audience to 'Truth in Telecoms' and expresses gratitude for the guest, 'the viz', who is known for his unique and bold opinions on various topics like climate, free speech, and Europe. The speaker admires the guest's views and aligns with them on many issues. There's a light-hearted moment about Allan getting a haircut, and the conversation shifts to discussing the evolution of the telecom industry, specifically mentioning the progress of 'Bird' and how it has moved from being associated with the criminal SMS industry to being recognized by major players. The speaker also humorously addresses the competitive nature of the industry, referring to a 'sexiest man alive' contest and the camaraderie among industry professionals.
📱 Telecom History and Legal Battles
The discussion delves into the history of the telecom industry, with the speaker recounting his experience with Iris Wireless and the strategic move of selling to two German entities. There's a mention of a podcast with significant viewership and the impact of exposing illegal business practices that led to the firing of a notable industry figure. The speaker also touches on his interactions with various industry players, including those from CSE and John Wick, and shares anecdotes about legal battles, highlighting the complexities and the personalities involved in the telecom sector.
🚀 Transition from SMS to CRM and Market Dynamics
The speaker reflects on the transition from SMS to CRM, triggered by changes in the market and customer behavior. He notes the rise of fraud in the industry, the desire for brands to seek the lowest prices, and carriers to maximize their profits, which led to an unsustainable business model. The conversation also covers the shift towards multi-channel solutions and the decline in the importance of APIs as businesses sought to focus on their core competencies. The speaker observes the loss of market capitalization in the industry and credits the move away from SMS as a timely decision, aligning with the changing landscape.
💸 Corruption, Market Saturation, and Strategic Shifts
This section discusses the corruption within the industry, particularly in the firewall sector, and how it has impacted the market. The speaker is critical of practices that involve money laundering and the negative impact on the SMS pricing. He also addresses the saturation of the market and the need for companies to innovate and compete on a global scale. The speaker shares his experience with the German company he sold his assets to and their struggles in the market, emphasizing the importance of strategic business decisions and the avoidance of unethical practices.
🌐 Global Expansion, Market Fragmentation, and the SMS Industry's Future
The speaker compares his entrepreneurial journey with that of Jeff Lawson, the founder of Twilio, highlighting the different paths they took due to market conditions and regional differences. He discusses the challenges of global expansion, the fragmentation of the European and APAC markets, and the necessity of building an abstraction layer to operate effectively. The conversation also covers the low margins in the SMS business and the strategic decisions that needed to be made to stay competitive. The speaker concludes by emphasizing the need for innovation and adaptation in the face of an evolving industry.
📉 The Downfall of High-Valued Companies and the Shift to SaaS
In the final paragraph, the speaker discusses the downfall of high-valued telecom companies and the shift towards SaaS as a business model. He critiques Twilio's business practices and the broader industry's transition from consumer messaging to application messaging. The speaker also reflects on the industry's past, including the role of P2P messaging and the changes in carrier practices that affected the business models of companies like Twilio. The conversation ends with a call to read more about the campaign registry, indicating a deeper dive into the industry's evolution.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Truth in Telecoms
💡Viz
💡Bird
💡CRM (Customer Relationship Management)
💡Fraud
💡API (Application Programming Interface)
💡Market Cap
💡SMS (Short Message Service)
💡Wall Street
💡Globalization
💡Innovation
Highlights
Introduction of the podcast and acknowledgment of the guest, 'the viz', for his unique views on various topics.
Discussion on the importance of having one's own opinion and the rarity of such individuals in the industry.
Mention of the guest's influence on Allan's decision to get a haircut, highlighting the guest's impact.
The guest's transition from being known as 'fish' to 'the viz', reflecting a change in reputation and identity.
A humorous take on the prevalence of nicknames in certain regions, particularly in the guest's hometown.
Praise for the guest's business acumen, particularly in the area of SMS and CRM.
Reflection on the guest's past business moves and the strategic sale of assets to German investors.
Discussion of the competitive landscape in the telecom industry and the various players involved.
Anecdote about the guest's involvement in the industry and the humorous side of business dealings.
Mention of the significance of Jean Lou, the founder of Haywire, and his impact on the industry.
Analysis of the decline in market capitalization for companies in the telecom space and the reasons behind it.
The guest's perspective on the changing dynamics of the telecom industry, including the rise of fraud and its impact.
Insight into the guest's strategic decision to move away from SMS and towards CRM solutions.
Discussion on the importance of customer behavior and how it influenced the guest's business decisions.
The guest's commentary on the state of the SMS industry and the shift towards multi-channel communication.
Critique of the industry's reliance on APIs and the shift towards more abstracted solutions like CRM.
Final thoughts on the future of the telecom industry and the guest's role in shaping it.
Transcripts
excellent welcome to truth in telecoms
I'm not sure whether we're doing a
beauty contest on this but Johnny how
are you well well first of all you know
I want to thank the viz which I knew he
would show up because he's a viz he's
the only guy in this industry there's
very few guys on his level of balls I
mean if you have if you have a chance to
follow him on X which not a lot of
people do because not really a lot of
people follow him on X he has his own
opinion on things and I I quite follow
him there and he he he has really unique
view on life and on whether it be
climate or whether it be free speech or
whether it be Europe or whether it be a
lot of things I I find him I I I uh I
admire his views and and agree
unfortunately for uh myself with him in
a lot of ways because we're we're kind
of like in the [ __ ] minority on a lot
of things uh so I want to thank the viz
um and and yes look Allan just got a
haircut because the viz showed up I as
everybody knows I've been screaming to
Allan to get a haircut for months he
gets a haircut and look how handsome he
is so now he gets thrown in to the
sexiest man alive uh sexiest man and SMS
contest um so uh yeah I mean so look
this thank you so much for for uh
accepting my bait thank you thank you
thank you for my new nickname yeah what
the viz yeah you know you know F
actually means fish so um it's it's been
uh I mean it's been like how long have I
not been in school but like forever
like 25 years or something but 25 years
ago uh people uh yeah people in school
used to call me fish fish the fish they
called you the fish yeah but keep keep
it keep it the viz don't change the fish
I hate it the viz is AOL look I grew up
literally 10 miles from where that
orange guy is running for president here
lives and people don't understand where
I'm from everybody has a nickname it's
just it's like the Queens Long Island Bo
and you don't have a real you just have
a nickname so it's not something that he
created it's just something that if you
come to this neck of the woods people
just have uh nicknames it's a lot of
Italian um old European um just just a a
mix and it's just a a nickname as the
thing but the viz is like I mean how can
not how can you not be the viz I mean
it's like it's like right there in front
of you it's like too easy but uh I want
to dive into it Robert and and the first
thing I want to do is I want to talk
about how uh you know shocking some of
your progression progressing that as far
as where you've taken Bird right now so
you know I noticed something when I
posted yesterday an old friend of mine
Jean Lou Who founded Haywire many years
ago I don't know if you know Jean he's
at
Salesforce I don't know Jean but I know
Haywire okay so Jean founded Haywire my
partner Rick Joyce who was my partner at
TCR acquisition he was also the attorney
at um Venable he was Jean's lawyer he's
also the former Chief Council head of
cyber for the US Coast Guard because we
were involved in that whole campaign
registry in Saturday he used to
represent him and John he would just
tell me how brilliant Jean was and then
I met Jean at the ctia conferences that
we had when I when I had one of the
three hubs so I would be sitting there
as Iris which was me and one carrier and
then I'd have coverse and I'd have sap
and I'd have the mobile operators and
you'd have you'd have you know Doug
Gardner from twio and you'd have the
guys from zip Whip and it'd all be a lot
of fighting and I got very friendly with
Jean but jean went to to Salesforce Jean
had a lot Jean had a lot of patents too
like thoron but he had patents that he
actually monetized and he sold this
company to Salesforce and became the
principal architect of mobile so I still
keep in touch with Jean and he popped
up and he doesn't pop up at all but he
popped up when bird came up and CRM so
I'm saying to myself well Jean's got to
be maybe concerned because without Jean
Salesforce does not go to mobile he he
is he was the smartest guy in our
industry from a technical standpoint and
I'm going back a decade you know what I
mean so I think you're on you're on
Jean's radar So you you're gone from
like the criminals in SMS to the big
boys
so congratulations I mean you know you
guys don't get enough credit for being
so funny it's just like you know it's I
I read all your posts and I'm like I
don't know sometimes whether they're
like or not because I start fighting
with everybody in the industry if I like
too much but
like I still need I still need some of
them you know like it's not over yet but
um uh but at the but at the same time
it's freaking hilarious you know we
gotta laugh Alan and I have been around
I'm 58 I've been around you seen too
much and if you don't laugh I mean
what's the point of life you know if you
don't find humor I mean I'm the guy in
the industry I took an asset called Iris
Wireless and suit cerse didn't really
know the value of it but obviously as we
know twio paid 750 million for a
minority state in cers to get the same
access that I had and I'm the dumbest
guy in the world I use it to restructure
these two Germans in Germany who by the
way I'm like the only guy in the world I
I gotta find the two dumbest people in
Germany I mean Germans are so smart
altogether I find the only two morons uh
in the whole country uh it's it's quite
amazing but we got to have fun I have
fun a lot more than Allan uh look we've
had some kind of audiences I mean we did
your podcast you got 5,000 views which
doesn't sound like a lot but it's a lot
and you got that when we were banned
yeah but we were doing podcast with 70
plus thousand views when Allan got Jeff
Lawson fired from twio that was Allan by
the way just so you know he got Allen
fired when he exposed the fact that the
minority Stak he bought in twio in cerse
was kind of illegal because you don't
buy a minority stake in a company with
public shareholders money uh when
there's another $2 billion doar and debt
behind it and nothing In fairness I like
cerse though you know why I like coverse
I like look I love CSE John Wick I just
did a whole podcast on John Wick go read
watch my podcast on John Wick I fought
cers I I had them beat they settled with
me I wasn't stupid enough to go all the
way to trial with them because they're
owned by the carel group and tinch found
out the hard way tinch got pass a motion
to dismiss just so you know how they
lost these idiots and then they went to
curse I literally went to got to the
access to the chairman of uh Carlile
literally the CEO of carile who a friend
of mine and said go settle this they fly
to Germany they try to settle with the
Germans because thoron had them in court
um and the Germans asking for $100
million in new agreements so they fly
back and all of a sudden tinch finds out
what America is all about and the judge
that ruled in their favor oh retired and
they nominated a magistrate Church in
Tampa and he overruled and then tinch
went from winning to losing and spending
N9 million dollars doing it because they
thought they could do whatever they want
here and you really can't but C look you
have to like cin you don't have a
choice well what's your choice you you
you you know and you're look John Wick
go welome my podcast on John Wick I mean
I go back with John Wick he's a
gentleman I nobody could talk about him
the way I talk about
him why do you like C of us I I you know
I don't um so uh I'm we're less close to
them than you might think but like you
know you know what I think it is a lot
of these companies are made you know
there's there's management there's
owners um and there's a lot to be said
for them and honestly I don't I I'm not
like trying to chicken out I honestly do
not know enough about it to to to Jud to
judge there but there are some really
good people at cerse so when I say I
like them I would argue the folks that
we deal with on the account management
side and the the the the Sales
Management side and the procurement side
and the routing side and you know I I
always hear from the team how well they
work with them so that's more what I
mean with there's a there's a new
there's a new breed at cerse so going
back a decade when they tried to [ __ ]
me being the third asset and look I just
restructured a company I couldn't spell
text messaging Robert I I come from the
coin C industry excuse my language and I
restructured this company wiped out $30
m in debt and then they had this crazy
CEO who decided like oh no I'm not gonna
give you a new agreements like what do
you mean they're Auto renewed the last
14 years you have to you know uh and
then I restructured it and and took him
on a court nobody thought I would beat
him and I went and found Rick Joyce and
we beat him um I was just a [ __ ] and
didn't really know the value it's funny
after I sold the company to to the
Germans I sold my assets actually I get
in touch twio gets in touch with me and
tells me well we want to buy it I'm like
well you can't you got to go to Germany
they flew to Germany uh T twio put a
deal on the table for the Germans that
would have been worth 800 million doron
turned it
down now you could buy Thorston for the
for for the amount of money that Jeff
Lawson spends at his hair
products right see this is what I mean
you but we have 20,000 but there's
20,000 other people that laugh at us
just the ones that don't laugh at us or
the ones that don't like us which are
the kind of the criminals and the Shady
basses that are running around so we
just call stuff out for what it is
number one we don't care number two
everybody's a [ __ ] nobody's really
dangerous oh they're dangerous no
they're not they're SMS people what
dangerous so they they may pay some
people off in different countries how do
that make them dangerous they may run
artificially inflated traffic and enjoy
when people get spammed but that doesn't
make him dangerous although thoron trap
has legitimately dangerous and I'll get
to a story about him later but yeah look
CSE is really good people John Wick we
fought toe-to-toe we're still friends to
this day although he hides from me now
uh we've been friendly I tried to sell
him tinch again a couple of years ago I
did a podcast if I was on your wrong
side I would be hiding too that is not
that is not like let's be honest here no
listen there's no wrong side it's not my
wrong side it's it's the song of right
and quite frankly nobody scared you
don't nobody scar you okay at the end of
the day and you know that so but but
back into what you're going with CRM
because you really got out because
there's over I think it's 110 billion
dollars in Market cat has been lost
between twio cinch bandwidth ring
central blink you could throw in the CMS
you could throw in a few smaller ones
over $10 billion dollars in market cap
that has been wiped out to Wall Street
Wall Street is completely dead on the
word CPS gone there's no more money uh
Allan knows it was sponsorship the other
organization know it was sponsorship so
it's amazing how you got
out right in time and on our last
podcast you talked about the transition
that you made a couple of years ago when
did you see that coming because the
stock prices were still up when did you
see that this was going to be a disaster
it's a disaster I mean it's it's it's a
it's a it's a it's a few different
things like
so just like first principles on the
whole topic like is the world still
today what it was in the past or is it
not and I think that world change
started way before stock prices were uh
were were uh were Sky High um and there
were many different indicators um fraud
accelerated whether it was I AIT or any
type of fraud but fraud is really bad
for an industry because essentially
ultimately as a provider you don't you
can't really do anything so you have
like so the problem you have is that
Brands want the cheapest price so
they're at some level responsible for it
um at the you have the carriers who want
the highest price so most carriers
started the end of life strategy you
know two three I mean I started in 2011
so two three years in we were already
sort of seeing the first first signs of
that um and then a lot of fraud so you
have carriers raising price SMS price
has gone like this you have Brands who
want SMS price to go like that and so
you're basically and fraud is also going
like this so it just it just became an
industry that wasn't as much fun as it
used to be yeah I think secondly um you
know Telecom people got a little lazy um
I used to joke to people and people said
like what kind industry are you in and
like is it fun it sounds so boring
because it's all Technical and blah blah
I was like well the thing you got to
understand about the telecoms industry
is that every conference people are
quite fun like people like to have a
good have a beer have a drink you know
uh talk to each other do business um
it's actually quite a quite quite a fun
industry to sort of be in the other
thing I always said is and if you look
at everybody's shoes you'll notice that
people are making money in this industry
and it doesn't matter whether you work
at a carrier or anywhere else because
everybody's sort of like dressed nicely
or has nice shoes or you know people are
not not people people people are not um
um cheap the best were the really big
companies where they had all these
expense accounts so you could drink for
free that was kind of like the was my
first people wonder how I bootstrapped
the company well I drank a lot on other
people's bills um so I think for us and
then and then it was ultimately customer
Behavior so customers were starting to
ask for different kind of solutions and
whether that was multiple channels or
whether that was more so there's like
the the so in like the tofa sort of
critical notifications industry you saw
customers who really wanted to move to
multiple types of channel uh channels
and we started in 2016 already with this
with a Omni Channel API way before the
industry sort of uh caught in um
conversations API um uh fun fact almost
everybody copied our name and our code
uh which is fine they can do whatever
they want we'll talk about patents later
but they can do whatever they want but
um but it's quite complex because every
single channel has their own way of sort
of doing things and then obviously from
a brand perspective you don't want to
you're abstracting all that complexity
so you don't really want to make make
all of these decisions so we saw that
Trend and then we saw a software Trend
which goes beyond the Telecom industry
which is just that apis are becoming
less important yeah so 2010 to 2020
everybody was API this API that you saw
all the companies go like this and I
think what people are finding out is
that most businesses need to focus on
their Core Business and their ability to
build on top of all these apis was very
cool and selling to all the developers
and it's but it's like and but at the
end of the day this is not really what a
brand wants because a brand needs to
focus on their core and so they need an
abstraction layer which is the
application or what we now call CRM the
other last thing that I would say is and
this is sort of been like a thing that's
been if you look at the Tam of our
industry it's because it's so
aggregation Le everybody has their own
little trick or firewall or like sort of
thing that message just goes around so
if you accumulate the revenue of all the
companies what people aren't realizing
is that in effect the actual originating
revenue from a brand is actually much
less than what it is and it's painful
like I create like like I create I I
mean I started in 2011 I recreated a
mobile core I have every secp provider
we have mobile network codes we're we
have our own mnc's in multiple countries
like I love this industry I can go deep
on S I can go deep on Telco talk all day
long so I love it and but at the end of
the day my my job is not to just love my
industry my job is to work for customers
they pay me so you know and so that was
the other Trend that I sort of saw that
like people were just not the industry
wasn't as big so if you want to Pro so
if you want to build a company that
truly is global and that truly sort of
innovates and wants to compete with the
great at one level which is still our
company's ambition then there was just
no way we could stay in in SMS forever
and I never wanted to get to the
firewall industry I think that is all
the firewall
people should be it's it's not firewall
it's money money laundry yes fill in the
blank so like it's just it it's it's one
of those things does it make money yes
it does and I've had multiple people on
my team who forever were like why are we
not doing this you know because if we
would do this we would do such a good
job and we could do it like you know
legitimately but I never wanted to get
into that industry because it's the
biggest corruption in the world correct
you basically get a carrier you get a
carrier who with relatively good
intentions just say I want you to block
my network because you know I'm getting
all these free messaging in from all
these Brands and I want you to block
them then the almost all provided a few
legitimate ones but almost everybody
that went into that industry were also
the dodgy ones in the industry who went
to brand and they just said oh we'll pay
you a million up front or we'll do this
or we'll do that and the carers went oh
yeah thank you you know so thank you for
doing it the second they did that the
price of SMS went from and what they
often did is they often locked in the
price with the carrier so they said your
weighted average price is I don't know
one cent two cents three cents four
cents and anything else and they would
charge folks like us 12 cents yes um uh
uh for that brand and at the same time
they would look inside the traffic and
then go oh you know this brand and this
brand and this brand that sounds
interesting how about I go directly to
the brand and I tell them you know
you're using you know bird or any other
provider but actually you should be
using us because they're using us so it
just it just creates and that was a
whole Trend and then Brands realized
that that didn't work and they went back
to you know because they didn't want
first they wanted they thought oh we'll
manage 20 providers or 100 and then they
were like okay we really don't want to
do that and then they sort of went back
to the indry so all these things
together
just you know made us drop pricing to
zero in the SMS space it made us you
know be honest about what our space is
actually about they actually they enable
they enabled you to make the turn so the
corruption in the industry where it was
going and the death enabled you to shift
your business so you should be kind of
thankful for those criminals and short
short minded shortsighted thinkers I
mean look twio prepays over
least of a hundred million I know a year
more uh on on on operators deposits in
different countries and then they bury
it in their [ __ ] and we can get into
twio lers I'm just not a fan we never
just for for for what it's worth also on
the records we've never prepaid for any
any anything it's just and actually not
as much from like a uh I don't actually
have an issue with no my point being is
they're they're funding the corruption
of the Gateway deals they just funded
tinch right for ATT Mexico they fund
other operators they put the money up
front how do I know I was involved in
selling tinch for three and a half years
I've talked to all the providers I
watched CCH not meet their numbers in
Pakistan and have to give the money back
I've had con I've I've learned the whole
business because I've been stuck with
these Germans which I had no interest in
being in this industry I mean I when I
sold my assets at Germans I basically I
went and played golf for three day three
years every single day and then it came
time for them to pay me more money and
then all of a sudden I got involved in
well we're gonna and then they lost the
cerse they didn't listen to me uh they
got killed over there but Thorson didn't
really care because Thorson's the only
guy in the industry that doesn't care
about making money that's why he's the
smartest guy in the industry Thorson
just wants to build his company and then
get buried in sand over centuries and
then he can come out he could be like
king thoron T thei and he'll be like a
pharaoh where people could come and see
all his patents on the wall in 3,000
years from now because he's insane but
that's why he's smarter than everybody
because he doesn't care about money and
he he's not answering to investors like
you're answering to investors he's not
answering to customers like you're
answering he's not actually building a
business he's I met with him a few
months ago and all he said was well
Johnny here I'll give you three and a
half million and then I'm gonna buy out
cpio for a dollar in three years but
you're gonna pay me 7even million if you
talk and here's a new agreement and if
you don't sign this I'm GNA cancel your
agreement I'm like first of all you
still can't cancel agreements you owe me
millions and millions of dollars you
lunatic and but that's when it real it
really hit me like he just doesn't care
I mean he blew deals with soprano stench
GMS 14 months although I don't think GMS
was so much of his fault until the end
because Yuri spent about 14 months
combing his hair to each side of his
head deciding whether or not he wanted
to buy it because we had such a
dysfunctional we had such a
dysfunctional situation with cypio and
them he he didn't know and and look we
we tried to sell tinch to GMS we were
willing to give take stock from GMS
although I got some cash and they were
getting bombed because all their
employees are in Kev that's how bad we
wanted to get away from him and he bait
and switched them pulled their pants
down made Yuri spend all kinds of money
on on you know due diligence and give me
this report and whatever that may be and
ended up falling through but uh at the
end of the show I want to try to sell
your tinch actually I want to try to
give you tinch all I want is a pair of
clogs really cool clogs I know you guys
got them clogs over there and if I can
cut that deal with you after the show
but I
mean t a part of our so let me let me
say that I'm biased in saying this I'll
be honest well then I tell you right now
they're a partner of yours because they
have to be but but I'll be but I'll be
but I'll but I'll but I'll say something
on it um it's funny because stop right
there why don't you buy
him I'll I'm gonna get there um I'll get
there I'll get there I'll get there I'll
get there I we looked at them but it's
um you didn't look at them you didn't
look at them when we were running a
process you looked at him with nicoline
Thorston where they were giving you
smoking mirrors you were not involved in
the process I know the I know the CEO of
anyways it's I can't talk about that I'm
under confiden right but like it's um
it's um the the the problem I mean when
I say I looked at them any let me not
even get into it but like we didn't get
very far let's put it that way because
we we backed out very quickly um and I
had like one of the worst calls in my
life with somebody at that team that I
was like I'm never I just never I just
don't even want to I don't even want to
go into a process with you I won't say
who it is but I will I was literally
came out of that call I remember calling
my team and I was like who is this
person why anyways I I think this is you
know his name is copsy no no but like
it's you know what when I started bird
um and we started as mobile tulip which
was kind of our first name we went from
mobile tulip to message bird to bird um
and um uh tinch was like the golden
company this was the company that had it
all figured out it was super hard to get
a connection to them um that's when I
got suck in they had all the nice Deals
they they had they had all the um they
they had all these things I think the I
think what happened is and you see that
a lot of this industry and like look
after I came on your podcast and we
lowered price and you know you saw the
whole battle with one of our competitors
yeah um you know they went they went I
mean it's wild right like they went they
went and accused us of fraud I was like
this is like the craziest thing in the
world come to America that's what people
do they backed yeah they backed out and
I mean they backed down out of it very
quickly because they were like probably
not worth fighting with us but like it's
um um and imagine I know all these
people right it's like I always I've
been to I've been to drinks with like we
all know each other from a very very
long um um time and like the problem is
it's really hard to disrupt your own
business yeah that's just a hard thing
to do because you have to disbelief your
own beliefs and when you love something
and I say that with love and I actually
say that with love to tinch to cinch to
all of these people these are all people
that I know well and they're all people
that I know truly love their product
some might be smarter in business some
might be this some might be good-looking
or bad looking but like at the end of
the day these people do truly love the
technology because SMS has something
magical it's something magic about like
doing an API call and like receiving
that message on your phone it always had
that magic and it sort of sort of always
will and if you get into like the weeds
of like routing and all the complexity
you know it's comparable to like option
trading where like you're doing spot
pricing and all that sort of stuff to
actually get through a price point that
a brand um uh really really wants to
have I think the problem they all had is
that they didn't want to disrupt their
own industry they were too in love with
their own story and that killed them
because the industry moved on it just is
what is like I don't I love my industry
I would love to spend when I talk to my
team every on the on the carrier side
who still reports to me is like I love
to getting into the weeds I can get
weeks distracted of my business and just
get into the weeds of like what's going
on but like at the end of the day it it
will die a slow death and it and it
won't die like fact is still around too
it's always gonna be around but it's
dead as far as Wall Street is concerned
and I don't I don't think you noow but
but everybody who cashed in I mean look
at the people who cashed in who cashed
out right you cashed into your own
company right so you're you have a longl
lasting Talent you re-engineered your
your your company you've taken you know
about a billion plus dollars into the
company and you've got partners that
believe in you right other companies
have all cashed out I mean i' I'd love
to explain to you how twilio was a 70
billion dollar Ponzi scheme they never
said they were a cpass company all they
said on Wall Street with Jim Craner is
we're a SAS company we're a SAS company
all they ever said and people I live
right here in New York made more money
when it was going down than it went up
yeah because they shorted that thing
from 450 to 40 bucks a share because
there's nothing but to had the like if
you think about also the differences of
how we started our company right like
Jeff started a little earlier than us
with voice but like we roughly start at
the same time on actually on SMS like
the the difference was that like I'm a
Dutch entrepreneur from Netherlands
which has 17 million people right so if
we were going to go Global the only or
if we were going to make any money the
only way to do that was to go westico
Global the second thing is that you know
Europe is very fragmented APAC is very
fragmented so we had to build an
abstraction layer across all of that
fragmentation from uh day one um and the
third thing is that SMS was a low margin
business when I started it so like when
I started I was late right 2011 is late
you know if you go back 10 years you had
all the gray routes and all the free
stuff and all all that
stuff ss7 but that's another
conversation you you just didn't have
the app so you didn't have as big as a
market but you kind of had and you had
that whole wave before of like sap
buying mobile 365 and like you know so
you you had a whole wave before sort of
me Christian uh
uh I hate that I I now blank on his name
now he will hate me even more uh the
three founders of cinch um uh uh Robert
how can I this is hilarious how can I
forget Robert he has the same name he's
a finalist in the sexiest man Robert
Christian it's a you gota add Christian
then too Christian's pretty sexy but
like um you know it's um uh we all start
sort of at the same time but we all but
that was already past it was already
sort of P past um past that wave of um
uh of what people were doing but um
twilio on the flip side they had the
benefit of back B back then just
utilizing P2P Roots period of here uh
basically consumer messaging versus ADP
which is application messages which is
the kind of an industry that we're that
that we're in um so they had the benefit
of being able to utilize P2P for a2p uh
which was the same in Europe and APAC 10
years before I started the business but
that had moved on to different platforms
and separation of basically uh a19 and
all the there so that was their benefit
the reason that they were able to do
that because they were able to pay
nothing or even receive money because
the way that it sort of worked is that
you had the carriers the carriers
outsourced their hubs you had three
different hubs um that carried most of
it you had a few more but that carried
most of the traffic and essentially what
would happen is the hubs would pay um uh
people to uh connect to them versus
charging a fee because essentially
because they were a third party Hub they
were able to get money from the carrier
so this all started with essentially
companies like fio being paid to send
messages and charging their customers
you know 0809 whatever it was per
message which by the way was still
significantly cheaper than Europe but
like free is free yeah um and then I
think what turned for them and they were
sort of double unlucky um one markets
turned it wasn't just twio I mean you
know they were worth 70 billion were
many other companies were worth a
gazillion dollars that that uh in in in
that time frame so they so they had that
uh downside and the carriers finally got
smart and were like hey why are we not
getting you know any any of this ref
share of this of this message from this
brand and they started charging um too
and that those two things killed the
business model but that that only
started in 2020 the carriers created the
campaign registry and you should go read
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