Jordan Peterson Explains the Cross of Jesus Christ w/ Joe Rogan

Summary

In this thought-provoking script, the speaker delves into the symbolic significance of the Exodus story, particularly the tale of the Israelites' journey through the desert and the biblical account of poisonous snakes. They explore the psychological parallels of facing fears and the transformative power of bravery over safety. Drawing connections to Christ's crucifixion and the concept of resurrection, the narrative suggests that by confronting our deepest terrors, we may glimpse the triumph of the benevolent spirit over suffering, hinting at a profound, cross-cultural understanding of human experience.

Takeaways

• 📚 The story of Exodus is presented as either insane or true, with no middle ground, challenging the listener to consider its implications deeply.
• 🌍 After escaping tyranny, people often find themselves in a metaphorical desert, symbolizing a period of uncertainty and self-reflection.
• 🕊️ The Israelites' journey in the desert represents the psychological and social transition from being prisoners of tyranny to finding freedom.
• 🗿 The worship of idols by the Israelites after escaping reflects a human tendency to seek new forms of orientation when old structures are removed.
• 🐍 God's response to the Israelites' idolatry by sending poisonous snakes is a test of their faith and an opportunity for them to confront their fears.
• 🛑 The instruction to create a bronze serpent on a staff and have the people look at it to avoid being bitten symbolizes the psychological approach of facing one's fears to overcome them.
• 🔮 The connection between the bronze serpent and Christ being lifted up in the Gospels suggests a deeper, archetypal link between overcoming fear and spiritual redemption.
• ✝️ The crucifixion of Christ is described as a 'limit story', embodying the aggregation of human fears and the ultimate expression of suffering and betrayal.
• 🙏 The act of meditating on the Stations of the Cross is likened to a process of confronting and understanding one's deepest fears and the potential for redemption within them.
• 🕊️ The concept of a hero going into the abyss to rescue someone signifies a journey into the depths of suffering with the hope of finding spiritual victory.
• 🌟 The idea that looking into the depths of evil and suffering can reveal the benevolent spirit that overcomes it, suggesting a fundamental life force that transcends mortality.

Q & A

What is the main theme of the story discussed in the transcript?

The main theme is the psychological and spiritual journey from tyranny to freedom, symbolized by the Exodus story and the journey of the Israelites through the desert.

Why do the people go into the desert after escaping tyranny according to the transcript?

They go into the desert because it represents the space between freeing oneself from tyranny and finding a new sense of identity and purpose.

What does the desert symbolize in the context of the story?

The desert symbolizes a place of uncertainty and struggle, where individuals must confront their own misconceptions and misperceptions after escaping from a tyrannical situation.

Why do the Israelites start worshipping idols after leaving Egypt?

The Israelites start worshipping idols because they lack a new orientation and structure after leaving the tyranny, leading to fragmentation and conflict among themselves.

What is the significance of the poisonous snakes sent by God in the story?

The poisonous snakes represent the consequences of the Israelites' fragmentation and idolatry, serving as a punishment and a catalyst for them to seek God's help.

What does God instruct Moses to do in response to the snake bites?

God instructs Moses to create a bronze serpent on a staff, which, when the Israelites look at it, will prevent the snakes from biting them anymore.

How does the bronze serpent on a staff relate to the concept of psychotherapy?

The bronze serpent on a staff represents the psychotherapeutic principle of facing one's fears to overcome them, which is a form of voluntary exposure to what one is afraid of.

What connection does the transcript draw between the story of the serpent in the desert and the Gospels?

The transcript suggests that Christ's crucifixion, where he is 'lifted up' like the serpent, is a symbolic connection to the serpent story, indicating a shared theme of overcoming suffering and death.

What does the transcript suggest about the nature of bravery in the context of the story?

The transcript suggests that bravery is better than safety, as it is a more reliable cure for terror and represents the ability to face and overcome one's fears.

How does the transcript interpret the Stations of the Cross in relation to the story?

The transcript interprets the Stations of the Cross as a process of confronting and understanding the various aspects of suffering and betrayal, ultimately leading to a deeper understanding of life and resurrection.

What is the broader implication of the connection between the serpent story and the New Testament, according to the transcript?

The broader implication is that there is a deep, archetypal connection between overcoming personal and collective suffering, with the spirit of life overcoming death as a fundamental aspect of human experience.

Outlines

00:00

🐍 The Exodus and Psychological Liberation

This paragraph explores the psychological and social implications of the biblical story of Exodus, where Moses leads his people out of tyranny into the metaphorical desert of uncertainty and freedom. It discusses the human tendency to cling to familiar structures, even if they are oppressive, and the challenges of breaking free from such 'tyrannical preconceptions.' The narrative of the Israelites in the desert, their idol worship, and the plague of poisonous snakes sent by God serves as an allegory for facing one's fears and overcoming terror through exposure and acceptance, as suggested by psychotherapy. The story concludes with a surprising twist where God instructs Moses to create a bronze serpent to cure the snake bites, symbolizing the act of confronting fears to gain bravery.

05:01

🕊️ Christ's Crucifixion: A Journey Through Suffering to Resurrection

The second paragraph delves into the profound imagery and symbolism of Christ's crucifixion, drawing parallels with the ancient story of the serpent in the desert. It examines the crucifixion as a 'limit story,' encompassing all human fears such as pain, betrayal, and death. The listener is encouraged to engage with these themes by identifying with various characters in the narrative, confronting their own fears and terrors. The paragraph suggests that by looking deeply into the abyss of suffering, one can discover the light of resurrection and the benevolent spirit's victory over catastrophe. The connection between the serpent story and Christ's self-identification with it is highlighted, proposing a deep, cross-cultural understanding of the shamanic experience of death and rebirth, culminating in the idea that the spirit of life overcomes even the worst suffering.

Keywords

💡Exodus

Exodus refers to the biblical story of the Israelites' departure from slavery in Egypt under the leadership of Moses. In the video, the exodus is used as a metaphor for liberation from psychological and social tyranny, suggesting that true freedom may lead to an uncertain and challenging journey, akin to wandering in the desert.

💡Tyranny

Tyranny in this context is the oppressive power or control exerted by a ruler or government. The video script discusses how people may be prisoners of their own tyrannical misconceptions and misperceptions, and the psychological challenge of breaking free from such mental and social constraints.

💡Desert

The desert is used metaphorically to represent a state of uncertainty and hardship following liberation from oppression. In the script, it symbolizes the psychological and existential challenges one faces after breaking free from the familiar, albeit oppressive, structures of tyranny.

💡Idols

Idols, in the script, represent false beliefs or ideologies that people may turn to when they lack a clear sense of direction or purpose. This is illustrated by the Israelites' worship of idols in the desert after their exodus, which leads to further conflict and divine punishment.

💡Poisonous Snakes

In the script, poisonous snakes symbolize the consequences of turning away from guidance and embracing false ideologies. They are sent by God as a punishment for the Israelites' idolatry, representing the dangers of succumbing to fear and division.

💡Bronze Serpent

The bronze serpent on a staff, as mentioned in the script, is a symbol from the Exodus story where looking at it healed those bitten by poisonous snakes. It represents the concept of facing one's fears to overcome them, a theme that is also explored in various forms of psychotherapy.

💡Psychotherapy

Psychotherapy is a psychological method for treating mental health issues. The script references the idea of facing one's fears as a therapeutic approach, drawing a parallel between the bronze serpent story and modern psychological treatments that encourage exposure to confront and reduce fear.

💡Christ

Christ, in the script, is associated with the serpent in the desert, drawing a connection between the New Testament and the Exodus story. This connection suggests a deeper symbolic meaning, where Christ's crucifixion is likened to a transformative and redemptive act.

💡Crucifixion

Crucifixion is the method of capital punishment used by the Romans, described in the script as an extremely painful and slow death. It is used to illustrate the depth of suffering and the potential for transformation and resurrection in the face of extreme adversity.

💡Resurrection

Resurrection in the script refers to the Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, symbolizing victory over death and suffering. It is connected to the idea of looking into the abyss of suffering and finding the spirit of life that overcomes it.

💡Abyss

The abyss in the script symbolizes the depths of suffering, evil, and terror. It is used to describe the process of confronting the worst aspects of existence, with the potential to discover the light or the benevolent spirit that overcomes such darkness.

Highlights

The story of the Exodus is presented as either insane or true, with no middle ground.

Moses leads his people out of tyranny but into the desert, symbolizing the psychological and social challenges of freedom.

People may have nostalgia for tyranny due to the stability and predictability it provides.

The desert represents the space between freeing oneself from tyranny and finding a new direction.

It takes three generations to recover from the effects of tyranny, according to the narrative.

The Israelites' turn to idol worship in the desert reflects a lack of orientation after leaving tyranny.

God's response to idolatry was to send poisonous snakes, a metaphor for the dangers of fractured ideologies.

The instruction to create a bronze snake on a staff represents a psychological approach to overcoming fear through exposure.

The concept of facing one's fears to gain bravery is a central theme in psychotherapy.

Christ's comparison of himself to the serpent in the desert suggests a deep connection with the Exodus story.

The crucifixion story is described as a 'limit story' that aggregates all that people fear.

The stations of the cross are a form of voluntary exposure to the aspects of life that one fears.

The idea of looking into the abyss and seeing the light is a metaphor for finding hope in despair.

The connection between the serpent in the desert and Christ's crucifixion took 30 years to understand.

The hero's journey often involves a descent into the abyss to rescue or confront something significant.

The spirit of life is described as that which overcomes suffering and death, even in the face of catastrophe.

The narrative suggests that facing the worst threats can lead to a transcendent revelation.

Transcripts

this is weird this is one of those

impossibly weird stories you think this

is either insane or it's true because

that's the only options it's not boring

it's not predictable it's either insane

or it's true and i got way deeper into

that too i realized some things about

the exodus story there's a scene in

there and that's the story where god

sends poisonous this is so cool it's so

stunning i'll tell you a little bit

about it if you don't mind it's so cool

joe i can't believe it can possibly be

true so moses leads his people out of

the tyranny right but weirdly enough

they don't go to the promised land this

is very weird they go into the desert

well why well we're all

say prisoners of our own tyrannical

misconceptions and misperceptions

psychologically and socially so let's

say we we free ourselves from those well

then we're nowhere at least we were

guided by that's why people have

nostalgia for tyranny like at least we

had enough to eat then at least we knew

who we were then it's like out of the

tyrant's grasp into the desert and so

you think why don't people want to

challenge their own preconceptions it's

like yeah it's out of the tyranny into

the desert and the worse the tyranny the

worse the desert so if you've been

tormenting yourself with tyrannical

preconceptions and totalitarian

obligations and you decide to drop it or

maybe you're shocked out of that by

trauma you don't go to paradise you go

to the desert maybe that's even worse so

no wonder people don't do it so now the

israelites are out in the desert you

think why are they there for 40 years

and maybe it's because it takes three

generations to recover from tyranny

you're in the desert man and so the

israelites start worshiping idols it's

ideology it's the same thing and that's

why because they don't have anything to

orient themselves because they're not

tyrannized anymore and they get all

fractious and they fight with themselves

and moses has to spend like all day

judging their conflicts because

otherwise they're in each other's

throats and anyways they turn to false

idols and so god isn't very happy about

this and he sends poisonous snakes in

there to bite them so it's like

out of the tire tyranny into the desert

now we're fractured by ideologies now

the poisonous snakes come and so the

poisonous snakes are biting them and

biting them and biting them and they

finally break down and go to moses and

say look you want to have a chat with

god and get him to call off the damn

snakes and moses says okay and so he

goes and talks to god and god says this

is weird this is one of those impossibly

weird stories you think this is either

insane or it's true because that's the

only options it's not boring it's not

predictable it's either insane or it's

true okay and maybe we could start by

thinking it's insane but whatever moses

talks to god and god

god could just call off the snakes right

that's what you'd expect them to do but

that isn't what happens he says go make

an image of a snake in bronze and make

an image of a stick like a staff and put

the snake on the staff and then stick it

in the ground and then have the

israelites go and look at the snake and

then the snakes won't bite them anymore

you think what the hell is okay here's

the doctrine from all fields of

psychotherapy okay look at what you're

terrified of and you will get braver

that's what you're terrified of is a

pack of wolves and they're gonna [ __ ]

eat you yeah well look it's not like

there aren't real dangers but look if

you're threatened by a pack of wolves

and you go out and study them you'll

realize you're [ __ ]

unless you have guns okay so so the

classic therapeutic treatment for terror

and the poisoning that terror induces is

exposure voluntary exposure okay so so

the the pattern there is face face what

your face what you're most afraid of and

you will be free okay okay that makes

sense voluntarily yeah now that's a

doctrine of psychotherapy now right okay

so now that's weird that's weird so god

doesn't chase away the snakes he makes

everyone braver okay because that's

better than being safe bravery is better

than safety it's a more reliable cure

for terror okay now that's cool but this

is even more cool in the gospels christ

says that he has to be lifted up like

the serpent in the desert you think

what the hell does that possibly mean

because well that's a snake first on a

stick and christ is comparing himself to

a snake on a stick okay so what is this

what can this possibly mean well i was

thinking about that in relationship to

imagery of the crucifix and the story

that surrounds it so jung thought that

the passion story was archetypal because

it's a limit story like this

this debate at oxford you cannot write a

more tragic story it's impossible

technically why well because it's a

story of the aggregation of everything

that people are afraid of so there was

no death more painful than crucifixion

that's why the romans invented it it was

to punish political miscreants it was a

slow agonizing death by suffocation

essentially and and and dehydration and

exposure it's extraordinarily painful

okay so that sucks that's pain man plus

you know it's coming that's part of the

story plus your best friend betrayed you

into it plus your people turned against

you plus they're led by a tyrant who

doubts truth plus you're a victim of the

roman empire plus you're completely

innocent plus everybody knows it plus

they they choose a criminal to be

released from this experience instead of

you even though they know he's a

criminal and they know you're innocent

so and you're young and you've done no

wrong and all you've done is help people

so it's a limit story okay so then you

think we've been looking at that limit

story for 2000 years in the image and in

the story what are we doing well you're

supposed to visit the stations of the

cross let's say okay here's the idea you

hear the crucifixion story and you play

with it who are you maybe if you're

female you're mary and why is that it's

the pieda because you have to offer your

children to the destruction of the world

that's female courage that's the mother

that doesn't hold your child back it's

like go out to what eventually your

death and destruction go out leave me be

in the world that's feminine courage man

to let her baby go you're pilot you

doubt truth but you're you'll go along

with the crowd you're judas because you

betray your best friend you're the mob

you're the criminal all of that that's

you you look on all those things that

you hate and are terrified by that's

like that's not a snake it's like the

worst of all possible snakes everywhere

that's what you're looking at what do

you see you see death you see

destruction pain terror tyranny frailty

betrayal look harder look harder look

harder what do you see the death and

resurrection you look far enough into

the abyss you see the light well that's

the story that's the connection between

those stories and this unbelievably

strange thing is is that connection

exists it's like there's the strange

story of the serpent in the desert and

we know that story is three thousand

years old something like that we know

that and then we know perfectly well

that christ said that he was allied that

his image was allied with that snake

that's written down and even if you

don't believe in the historical reality

of christ someone still made that

connection and did they know everything

we were talking about today explicitly

so what do we make of the fact that the

shamanic experience which is replicable

cross-culturally and which dominated the

human landscape for at least 20 000

years we know that it involves a a death

and a resurrection and an entry into

paradise and and a reunion with the

ancestors and so what does it mean who

knows man this is way past this is way

past my knowledge but i i know that

connection that i just told you about

between the story in in the new

testament and that story in exodus that

took me like 30 years to figure out

because there's also the idea that the

hero goes into the abyss to rescue his

fellow his father from the belly of the

beast that's the same idea right you go

down and i thought i knew this the last

time i went lecture two is like you look

into the abyss long enough and you see

you see the spirit of the benevolent

father manifesting itself that that's

the case that is the case if you look

into the depths of evil and suffering

what you see is not the finality of evil

and suffering you see the the victory of

the spirit that obtains victory over

that and then you might think

biologically well how could it be any

different joe that's the spirit of life

life is mortal suffering it's like but

we live what's the spirit of victorious

life if it's not the benevolent father

who overcomes the catastrophe of

suffering like what else could it

possibly even if you think about this

just as an instinct it's like you're

threatened by what's worse than death

and there are plenty of things worse

than death that you can be threatened by

and yet you you have a revelation that

enables your your transcendence of that

well what could it be other than the

spirit that overcomes death in some

fundamental sense