Jordan Peterson: Christ & Suffering

Summary

The transcript delves into the concept of tragedy, particularly the Passion of Christ, as the ultimate tragedy where the most innocent and good suffers the worst. It explores the psychological and religious implications of confronting fear and suffering, drawing parallels to biblical narratives like the Exodus and the story of the bronze serpent. The discussion suggests that facing our fears, akin to the Israelites looking at the serpent on the pole, can lead to transformation and healing, with the Passion symbolizing the confrontation with the ultimate fear and the Resurrection representing the triumph over it.

Takeaways

• 😔 The script discusses the nature of tragedy, emphasizing that the most tragic stories involve terrible events happening to those who least deserve them, likening this to the story of Christ's Passion.
• 🕊️ It explores the idea that Christ's crucifixion represents the ultimate tragedy because he was not only innocent but also embodying ultimate goodness, yet suffered the worst punishment.
• 🔍 The speaker delves into the psychological aspects of religious narratives, suggesting that confronting one's fears and suffering can lead to transformation and growth, drawing parallels to psychotherapy techniques like exposure therapy.
• 🗝️ The concept of the 'staff of Moses' is highlighted as a symbol of orientation, grounding, and healing, which is also associated with transformation due to the nature of snakes shedding their skin.
• 🐍 The script interprets the biblical story of the bronze serpent as a metaphor for voluntary exposure to what one fears as a path to healing and overcoming adversity.
• 🕊️🔁 The story of the resurrection is presented as a counterpoint to tragedy, suggesting that the ultimate narrative is one of overcoming suffering, not just the suffering itself.
• 🤔 It questions the modern perspective on suffering, pondering whether our culture's central placement of an archetypal tragedy serves as a form of inoculation against life's catastrophes.
• 🛑 The narrative of Exodus is examined through the lens of psychological resistance to tyranny, both external and self-imposed, and the struggle for freedom as a divinely inspired desire.
• 🏺 The script touches on the post-modern concept of group identity and challenges the notion of intrinsic rights, suggesting that the idea of slavery being wrong is rooted in the belief of individual sovereignty.
• 🧐 It reflects on the human tendency to long for past tyrannies, even brutal ones, when faced with uncertainty or the aftermath of liberation, drawing examples from real-world historical contexts.
• 🔑 The story of the Israelites' wandering in the desert and their struggle with faith is presented as an allegory for the human condition, questioning whether freedom from tyranny leads to a better or worse state of existence.

Q & A

What is the core element of tragedy according to the script?

The core element of tragedy is when the worst possible thing happens to the person who least deserves it.

Why is the story of Christ's Passion considered the ultimate tragedy?

It is considered the ultimate tragedy because Christ, who is not only innocent but also embodies ultimate goodness, endures the worst possible punishment through crucifixion, which was designed to be a terrible torture.

What is the significance of the serpent in the Exodus narrative?

The serpent in the Exodus narrative symbolizes transformation and healing. It also represents a method of dealing with fear through voluntary exposure, as looking at the bronze serpent on the staff cured the Israelites of the snake bites.

How does the script relate the story of Christ's Passion to the concept of confronting one's fears?

The script suggests that just as the Israelites were cured by looking at the serpent, confronting what is terrifying can lead to healing and transformation, which is a central theme in Christ's Passion and Resurrection.

What does the script imply about the relationship between suffering and personal growth?

The script implies that suffering can lead to personal growth, as it forces individuals to confront their fears and challenges, potentially leading to a greater sense of self and resilience.

What is the significance of the resurrection in the context of the script's discussion on tragedy?

The resurrection signifies that the tragedy is not the end of the story. It offers a resolution and a transformation, suggesting that overcoming suffering can lead to a renewed state of being.

How does the script connect the idea of the 'worst possible thing happening to the least deserving person' to the concept of intrinsic worth?

The script suggests that recognizing someone's intrinsic worth is essential to understanding why it's tragic when the worst happens to them. It challenges the notion of group identity over individual sovereignty, implying that each person has an intrinsic value that should not be subjected to arbitrary tyranny or suffering.

What does the script suggest about the role of the 'spirit of God' in the Exodus narrative?

The script suggests that the 'spirit of God' represents the force within individuals that opposes tyranny and seeks freedom, which is a psychological interpretation of the divine intervention in the Exodus story.

How does the script discuss the concept of confronting one's own presuppositions?

The script discusses confronting one's own presuppositions as a form of self-imposed tyranny, suggesting that we often hold onto these limiting beliefs even when they are not beneficial, and that escaping them might be akin to wandering in the desert.

What is the script's perspective on the idea that suffering is undeniably real?

The script posits that the reality of suffering is undeniable, especially one's own pain, and that this reality can lead to questioning the nature of that which overcomes pain, suggesting a deeper existential or spiritual inquiry.

How does the script relate the story of the Israelites in the desert to modern-day challenges?

The script draws parallels between the Israelites' struggle in the desert and modern challenges, suggesting that people today also face crises of faith and are tempted to seek solace in false idols or to long for the stability of past 'tyrannies'.

Outlines

00:00

😔 The Tragedy of Innocence and Suffering

This paragraph explores the concept of tragedy, particularly focusing on the Passion of Christ as the quintessential example of an undeserving person enduring immense suffering. The speaker discusses the nature of tragedy, the innocence of Christ, the intentional cruelty of crucifixion, and the psychological and spiritual implications of such an event. It also touches on the idea that pain is a reality that is difficult to deny, and it raises the question of whether that which overcomes pain might be even more real, hinting at the significance of the resurrection in Christian belief.

05:01

🤔 The Morality of Slavery and the Biblical Narrative

The speaker delves into the moral implications of slavery, questioning why it is considered wrong and how this judgment is tied to the concept of individual sovereignty and intrinsic worth. They critique post-modern thought that prioritizes group identity over individual rights and challenge the notion that slavery can be justified by group dynamics. The paragraph also reflects on the biblical narrative of the Israelites' exodus from Egypt, pondering the psychological and spiritual significance of their journey from tyranny to the desert and the implications of their struggle with faith and idolatry.

10:01

🐍 The Symbolism of Snakes and the Power of Confrontation

This paragraph examines the story of the Israelites in the desert and God's response to their complaints—sending poisonous snakes to bite them. The speaker interprets this as a metaphor for the consequences of losing faith and the importance of confronting one's fears. They draw a parallel between this biblical story and modern psychological practices, such as exposure therapy, which encourages facing one's fears to overcome them. The discussion also includes the significance of the bronze serpent on a staff as a symbol of transformation and healing.

15:02

🕊 The Resurrection and the Overcoming of Suffering

The speaker reflects on the Passion of Christ as an archetypal tragedy, discussing the concept of tragedy in its purest form and its psychological impact on individuals. They explore the idea that the worst possible suffering is inflicted upon the most innocent, as exemplified by Christ's crucifixion. However, they also highlight the resurrection as a symbol of hope and transformation, suggesting that confronting and overcoming suffering can lead to growth and renewal, much like the process of psychotherapy.

20:02

🛡 The Role of Suffering and the Potential for Transformation

In this paragraph, the speaker contemplates the role of suffering in personal development and the potential for transformation that it can inspire. They suggest that suffering can be a catalyst for change and that confronting it directly can lead to a deeper understanding of oneself and one's values. The discussion also touches on the idea of gratitude for suffering, considering whether it is possible to appreciate the challenges that life presents as opportunities for growth and self-improvement.

Keywords

💡Tragedy

Tragedy in this context refers to a narrative or real-life event causing suffering or disaster, especially one that evokes pity or terror. It is central to the video's theme as it discusses the Passion of Christ, which is portrayed as the ultimate tragedy where the most innocent and good person suffers the worst. The script uses the concept of tragedy to explore the depth of human suffering and its potential transformative power.

💡Innocence

Innocence is the state of being free from guilt or sin. In the video, Christ's innocence is highlighted as a key element of the Passion story, emphasizing the injustice of his suffering. The script contrasts Christ's innocence with the severity of his punishment, underscoring the tragic nature of his story.

💡Crucifixion

Crucifixion is a method of capital punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a cross and left to hang until death. The video discusses crucifixion as the means of Christ's death, designed by the Romans to be a terrible torture. It is used to illustrate the extreme suffering and the depth of tragedy experienced by Christ.

💡Betrayal

Betrayal is the act of delivering someone over to another, often to an enemy, especially one's own people. In the script, the betrayal by Christ's best friend is mentioned as a part of the tragic narrative, adding to the layers of suffering and the complexity of human relationships within the story of the Passion.

💡Tyranny

Tyranny refers to oppressive power or control, often exercised through arbitrary or oppressive policies. The video script discusses the role of tyranny in the context of the Passion, where the people and the state are under the control of a harsh regime, contributing to the tragic circumstances that led to Christ's crucifixion.

💡Resurrection

Resurrection is the act of rising or being raised from the dead. In the video, the concept of resurrection is presented as the culmination of the Passion story, symbolizing hope, transformation, and the overcoming of suffering. It is contrasted with the tragedy of the crucifixion to suggest that the story of life and redemption continues beyond death.

💡Exodus

Exodus is a term that originally refers to the departure of the Israelites from Egypt, as told in the Bible. In the script, the story of Exodus is used as a metaphor for liberation from oppression and the journey towards freedom, which parallels the themes of suffering, struggle, and eventual triumph over adversity.

💡Sovereignty

Sovereignty is the state of having supreme power or authority. The script touches on the idea that true sovereignty lies in the individual's intrinsic worth and freedom from arbitrary tyranny. It challenges the notion of group identity as the ultimate determinant of existence and argues for the importance of individual sovereignty in moral judgments.

💡Desert

In the script, the desert serves as a metaphor for a place of testing, struggle, and transformation. It is where the Israelites wandered for 40 years, a period of trials and tribulations that represented both a physical and spiritual journey away from tyranny and towards self-discovery.

💡Snakes

Snakes in the script are symbolic of fear, danger, and the potential for transformation. The story of the bronze serpent in the wilderness is used to illustrate the concept of facing one's fears as a path to healing and understanding. It is also connected to the idea of Christ being 'lifted up' as a means of salvation.

💡Confrontation

Confrontation in the video refers to the act of facing or dealing with a problem or difficult situation directly. It is discussed as a necessary step in overcoming suffering and achieving personal growth. The script uses the concept of confrontation to explore the idea that acknowledging and facing one's fears or challenges can lead to transformation and healing.

Highlights

The concept of tragedy is explored through the lens of undeserved suffering, particularly in the context of the Passion story.

Crucifixion is described as the epitome of human cruelty, designed to inflict the maximum amount of suffering.

The psychological impact of betrayal by a close friend and persecution by one's own people is discussed in relation to the Passion.

The reality of suffering is presented as undeniable, with pain being a powerful evidence of reality.

The idea that overcoming pain may signify an even greater reality is introduced.

The biblical series on Genesis is mentioned as a precursor to a potential series on Exodus.

The Bible is considered as a living text that shapes our worldview and is embodied in our actions.

The story of Moses leading the Israelites is analyzed for its psychological and spiritual implications.

The spirit of God is likened to the inner drive against tyranny and for freedom.

The concept of not being subjects of tyranny is tied to the idea of being children of God.

The question of why slavery is wrong is explored from a philosophical and moral standpoint.

The narrative of the Israelites in the desert and their struggle with faith and temptation is discussed.

God's response to the Israelites' complaints with poisonous snakes is analyzed as a harsh but instructive measure.

The bronze serpent on a staff is presented as a symbol of transformation and healing through confrontation with fear.

The psychological technique of exposure therapy is compared to the biblical story of facing the serpent.

Christ's comparison of himself to the serpent in the wilderness is examined for its deeper spiritual meaning.

The association between the serpent and Satan is explored, with the serpent representing the ultimate internal adversary.

The Passion is described as an archetypal tragedy, encapsulating the essence of all tragic stories.

The story of the Passion is contrasted with the hope and transformation signified by the Resurrection.

The potential for growth through suffering and confronting one's fears is highlighted as a key message.

The idea of being grateful for suffering as a means for personal growth and transformation is introduced.

Transcripts

it's tragic when something bad happens

to someone

well what if they deserve it

okay well then it's not so tragic it

still might have an element of tragedy

but it's really tragic if something

really terrible happens to someone who

clearly doesn't deserve it

so what's the most tragic story

well it's the worst possible thing

happening to the person who least

deserves it well that's core to the

passion story that's for sure right

because not only is christ innocent

he he's not merely innocent he's also

good and not just good he's as good as

it gets and yet his life is

this the tragic

the tragedy of the passion is the worst

of all possible punishments

visited upon the least deserving person

but it's much way worse than that that

just barely begins to scrape the surface

because

it's

torture

and a terrible torture because the

romans designed crucifixion to be a

terrible torture like consciously

and so

it's tragedy at the hands of your fellow

man

and your fellow man motivated by the

spirit of cain in the most fundamental

sense how can i inflict the most misery

possible in the shortest period of time

let's say subject to that at a young age

with foreknowledge as a consequence of

betrayal by your best friend at the

hands of a mob of your own people

who are simultaneously under the thumb

of a tyranny that's part and parcel of

what's persecuting you

who persecute you

knowing you're innocent not just

innocent but also good and who

choose to punish you instead of

punishing someone they know to be

criminal

it's all of that it's like the sum total

of all possible fears

if you're looking for certainty

the reality of suffering is certain

[Music]

i mean

what do you accept as evidence above all

else

that's a good question that's a hard

question but i would say pain is up

there

it's very difficult not to believe in

the reality of your own pain

it's somewhat easier not to believe in

the reality of other people's pain

that's not so easy either you know

but it's

your pain seems to be

undeniably real

and so

it does beg a question which is you know

if pain is undeniably real is that which

overcomes pain even more real and i

think that's in some sense that's the

idea that lurks

behind the idea of the resurrection

so a long while back i had planned to do

a

series on exodus i did a biblical series

on genesis which

people seem to appreciate which i found

extremely useful it was quite a

privilege to have the time and the space

to walk through those books and try to

understand them

first psychologically and

i like to speak about things

psychologically before i would ever dare

to speak about them religiously

i think you leave that for last resort

in some sense

i was thinking about some of the ideas

that i talked about today

you know about

the bible being the foundation of the

lens through which we look at the world

we have this idea that the bible is a

living text

and you know if we embody it then it's a

living text that's actually accurate and

i

i think

to the degree that we're

avatars of the judeo-christian tradition

that we do embody it for better for

worse and we're stuck with that or

blessed by it or both

so i'll tell you the story when moses is

leading the israelites through the

desert

i'm very compelled by that story you

know

so for example one of the things that's

really interesting about it is that

the story begins with a tyrannical state

and then

it's the spirit of god that

characterizes the hebrew

longing for freedom

that's kind of an interesting idea you

know psychologically you think that

what's the spirit of god

the spirit of god is that which

manifests itself within you in

opposition to tyranny

could be you know that's

that's not a bad

idea it's quite an idea it's a

remarkable idea

and maybe it's true

it's certainly the case that that's how

god is presented in that story

and in many other ways but but that

being paramount

above all and you know there's a there's

another corollary to that which is

well we shouldn't be subjects of tyranny

if we're children of god for israel and

israel means we who struggle with god

it's not

appropriate for us to be subject to

tyranny

that's interesting too because i think

we we

we sort of accept that idea at face

value in the west is that yeah slavery

is wrong obviously it's like it's not so

bloody obvious these things

you know one of the things that i'm

really curious about in relationship to

the post-modern types who make group

membership the sign quan on of existence

is why is slavery wrong

exactly it's like it's just one if we're

all groups and one group

lords it over another it's like that's

not wrong it's just tough luck for the

for the oppressed group it's there's no

wrong there because it's only wrong if

we're sovereign individuals

right with some intrinsic worth who are

not to be subject to arbitrary tyranny

that's when it's wrong and you have to

accept all those other axioms

before you get to say anything about

slavery being wrong at all otherwise

it's just like marx pointed out it's

just brute economics

and so you can make a moral judgment

about that if you want but what's your

criteria for saying that it's wrong you

know and of course that would upset

people on the radical left who want to

presume that it's intrinsically wrong

without having to presume all the things

that you have to presume to make it

intrinsically wrong and without even

noticing that that's just a sleight of

hand in any case so that's part of that

biblical narrative too we're not the

sorts of creatures who should be subject

to tyranny and then the tyranny might be

well is it the tyranny of a state

or is it the tyranny we impose on

ourselves

and i would say probably both why not

both the story could be referring to

both we tyrannize ourselves with our own

presuppositions all the time

and then you might ask yourself

why why don't we just give up our

tyrannical presuppositions

you know because they're not worthy and

they're oppressive but we don't give

them up and we often celebrate them and

i think the story has an answer for that

too because it's out of the tyranny

into the desert

it's like is that better or worse

how about worse

and so what if it's the case that even

to escape from the tyranny of your own

presuppositions that you don't go from

the tyranny to the promised land you go

from the tyranny

to the desert

and who the hell excuse me wants to do

that

and the answer is no one with any sense

it's like hey i'll just keep the tyranny

thank you very much at least i know

where everything belongs there

and

fair enough i mean this is a very

serious question and it's it's an open

question in the exodus narrative whether

the desert is worse or better than the

tyranny

and so and you know you see this in in

the real world lots of people in the

soviet union pined for the days of

stalin

so i read a book once that was uh

reminiscences of a pr

of um extermination camp written by the

guards

the good old days

you know so i don't think there's a

tyranny that's so brute that we can't

long for it if it's been shattered

and so that's quite something all that

packed up in that story anyways so the

israelites are out in the desert

and uh

they're there for 40 years and you might

think well what kind of leadership do

they have it's not that big a desert and

the answer is yeah but you know the

desert after a tyranny that's no bloody

joke and maybe it takes three

generations to get through it

and that's possible

and so

there's all that and then the israelites

are wandering around in the desert and

what happens well the same thing

happened to them is it's happening to us

they're worshiping false idols and

they're tempted and it's no wonder

they're tempted because while they're in

the desert it's like it's not going so

well it's no wonder they're having a

crisis of confidence

you know and and maybe they're pining

for the old days and they're not so sure

that the god who informed them that

being the subjects of tyranny was wrong

because now here we are in the desert

and so

they lack faith and it's understandable

but despite it being understandable and

this is one of the harsh things about

the story

what does god do when he hears their

complaints

he sends poisonous snakes in there to

bite them

i think that's pretty brutal you know

and that's the sort of thing that make

it makes the technical atheist type sort

of recoil about the conceptions of god

in the old testament it's not exactly

what you'd expect in some sense from an

all-merciful being it's like you've got

these poor israelites first of all they

were in the tyranny then they had the

part go across the red sea now they've

been wandering around in the desert and

that's not

good and so your best solution is to

send a bunch of snakes in to bite them

but you think well you know

even if you're in the desert after a

tyranny and you lose faith then the

snakes are going to bite you

right because that's what happens

because

if you're in

you know a little analog of hell

and you lose your faith

is that going to make it worse or better

and the answer is well i have reason to

lose my faith it's like fair enough that

isn't the question the question is what

happens if you lose it

or you start looking for faith in the

wrong directions and the answer is hell

gets a little deeper

that's one of the things that really

frightened me i spent a lot of time

studying atrocity and one of i realized

on a metaphorical level that the reason

hell is a bottomless pit is because no

matter how bad it is there is some

bloody stupid thing you can do that will

make it worse

and that's right you know and that's

terr that's a terrifying realization to

really understand that and so

okay poisonous snakes and so now the

israelites are not only lost but they're

being bitten

by venomous creatures and you know

there's an echo of the snake in the

garden of eden in that story and and so

finally the israelites they get kind of

tired of being bitten by the snakes

and they go to moses and say you want to

have a chat with god because you seem to

be in there fairly tight with him how

about you get him to call off the snakes

and maybe we'll

behave a little better how's that for a

deal and moses says okay i'll see what i

can do and he goes and has a chat with

god which is no trivial matter and god

doesn't do what you'd expect because

what you'd expect like and this would

even work

in terms of making it a comprehensible

narrative you'd think okay

all right guys

you've been bit enough

no more snakes

but that isn't what happens

and i think the reason that it doesn't

happen is because there's no getting rid

of the snakes i think that's

that's also why there's a snake in the

garden of eden is there's just no

getting rid of the snakes you have to

learn to contend with them it's more

like it's more that or maybe it's better

to learn to contend with snakes

than it is to inhabit a world where

there's no danger maybe it's something

like that i don't know

anyways

god says something extremely surprising

and very interesting from the

perspective of a clinical psychologist

he tells moses to cast

snake in bronze and to raise it up on a

staff and the staff seems to me to be a

reference to the staff of moses and that

staff of moses is something like the

thing you put in the ground to orient

yourself with it's the staff of god too

and it's sort of like an axiom and maybe

it's like the tree of life it's like

here i stand it's a center point it's

all of that in any case you put the

snake up on the staff that's also the

symbol of healing right the physician

symbol of healing the staff with the

snakes and so it is a symbol of

transformation and partly that's because

snakes shed their skin and are reborn

and so they're viewed as agents of

transformation and so that's all lurking

in that symbol

and then god says get the israelites to

go look at the snake on the staff and

then the poison won't poison them

anymore

and i read that as a clinician i thought

that's really interesting because one of

the things that we learned

all schools of psychotherapy learned in

the last 100 years is that if you get

people to voluntarily confront what

makes them afraid and what makes them

want to avoid then they get better it's

curative

and so that's the message there it's

like well if if something is terrifying

you

pay more attention to it

and that's actually what you teach

people in psychotherapy i mean there's a

variety of psychotherapeutic techniques

but exposure is probably

the cardinal technique

it's like if i can find out what you're

avoiding and get you to confront it

voluntarily you'll get better and the

reason seems to be is that if you get

people to confront what they're afraid

of and sometimes what disgusts them but

what they'd like to avoid let's say if

you get them to confront it voluntarily

that could be the future even you know

the indeterminate future

they don't get less afraid

they get braver

and that's different it's not like they

get accustomed to what they're looking

at and they're no longer afraid that

kind of happens but it isn't really what

happens what really happens is they

discover there's a lot more to them than

they thought

and so they're not as easily intimidated

then and so if you run a clinical client

through a session of exposure therapy

maybe they're afraid of an elevator or

something like that you get them so

they'll go in the elevator and sometimes

they're often women because women have

anxiety disorders more often than men

one of the unintended consequences of

that often is they'll go home and have

the fight with their husband that's been

brewing for 30 years

because they're now braver they see

themselves in a different light because

they've confronted this thing that

terrifies them and so it's so

interesting in that story that god's

cure for the venomous serpent is

voluntary exposure to the source of

terror it's so interesting that that's

the case and this is relevant to the

issue of suffering right and confronting

suffering dead on to actually

focus your attention on that which you

would like to avoid

one of the scariest words ever is if i

was god they wouldn't have been bitten

in the first place right so they put the

they've got the serpent the serpent's on

the pole but they're still going to get

bit and i think that that's what's

essential about that is just because the

serpent is there it doesn't mean that

everything is fixed it now looks like

the states are still there

but the the the transformation that

takes place is the focus of the

suffering becomes a symbol of faith for

them and that's obviously on the cross

well and part of the faith is the faith

that enables them to go look at the

serpent to begin with absolutely okay so

that leads us to the next part which is

in john because christ says

thousands of years later that he has to

be lifted up like the serpent in the

wilderness it's like okay

what in the world is going on there

because that's a hell of a thing for

anyone to say about anything ever and

it's right because what does that mean

why would the son of god compare himself

to a serpent and why that particular

serpent and that serpent in the

wilderness

and

i knew this old idea that lurks in all

sorts of stories in this corpus of

stories that i talked about you know

there's an idea that

the hero rescues his father from the

belly of the beast that's a very very

old idea and what that seems to mean to

some degree is that if you if you look

into the abyss

then that

it reacquaints you with the wisdom and

possibility of your tradition it's

something like that it forces that

it forces a maturation and a recognition

of what's fundamentally important that

confrontation with what's terrifying

well

so christ says he has to be lifted up

like the serpent in the wilderness

thought

what does that mean i thought a lot

about the relationship

between the serpent and the garden of

eden and the idea of satan because

there's an association there between

those two ideas and that's a very

strange association too because there's

nothing in that

in the biblical story in genesis that

indicates that the serpent is satan like

that's that's an idea that

aggregates across hundreds of years or

thousands of years that equation and i

tried to think that through i thought

well

the snake is the thing that threatens us

and that's true biologically

we're wired to be afraid of serpents

especially poisonous ones and they've

been in an antagonistic relationship

with mammals for like 60 million years

very long time

but

in some sense the idea of satan is

he's the ultimate in serpents

and so that's why that equation is drawn

across time it's like well what

threatens you well snakes yeah they're

pretty nasty well

there's snakes and then there's well

the origin of snakes so maybe you

conquer a snake and that's one thing and

maybe the next thing is you go out and

you find nests of snakes and you root

them out but then there's the snakes

that are in the hearts of your enemies

that's a harder snake to deal with and

then there's the snake that's in your

heart and that's the hardest snake to

deal with right and that's where the

equation between the serpent and satan

comes because the worst of all snakes is

the serpent in your own heart

and so there's a there's a

psychologization of the idea of the

predator and it becomes something that's

more spiritual is that you're most

vulnerable

to the worst impulses within you right

that's the worst predator

okay so there's the idea of the

concretization of the idea of the

serpent becoming psychologized up into

this figure of the adversary himself and

that abides within you

analogously

perhaps

is this

reference that christ makes to himself

in relationship to the snake is i

thought well what's the passion

if the snake is what you're afraid of in

this concretized sense

then the passion

is the sum total of all possible fears

i think that's right you know carl jung

he thought about the story of the

passion as an archetypal tragedy

and here's what he meant by that so

imagine that you took all these

tragedies that were ever written

and you sort of

you distilled them so that you got the

ultimate tragedy because the fact that

you can identify a bunch of different

stories as tragic means they have

something in common right and so you

could imagine you could pull out the

central pattern of tragedy and we could

flesh out some of what that might be

like it's tragic when something bad

happens to someone

well what if they deserve it

okay well then it's not so tragic it

still might have an element of tragedy

but it's really tragic if something

really terrible happens to someone who

clearly doesn't deserve it

so what's the most tragic story

well it's the worst possible thing

happening to the person who least

deserves it well that's core to the

passion story that's for sure right

because not only is christ innocent

he's not merely innocent he's also good

and not just good he's as good as it

gets and yet his life is

this the tragic

the tragedy of the passion is the worst

of all possible punishments

visited upon the least deserving person

but it's much way worse than that that

just barely begins to scrape the surface

because

it's

torture

and a terrible torture because the

romans designed crucifixion to be a

terrible torture like consciously

and so

it's tragedy at the hands of your fellow

man

and your fellow man motivated by the

spirit of cain in the most fundamental

sense how can i inflict the most misery

possible in the shortest period of time

let's say subject to that at a young age

with foreknowledge as a consequence of

betrayal by your best friend at the

hands of a mob

of your own people who are

simultaneously under the thumb of a

tyranny that's part and parcel of what's

persecuting you who persecute you

knowing you're innocent not just

innocent but also good and who

choose to punish you instead of

punishing someone they know to be

criminal

it's all of that it's like the sum total

of all possible fears

and i think that's right and it's so

interesting to me that

psychologically that

not speaking religiously to the degree

that that's possible when speaking about

such things is that

our culture has put at its center

an archetypal tragedy

it's as if we're

attempting to inoculate ourselves

against the catastrophe of life

and but what's

also so fascinating about the story of

the passion is that

the crucifixion is not the end of the

story the end of the story is the

resurrection and so the implication

there is the same as the implication

of

going into the abyss to rescue your

father from the belly of the beast it's

like

the tragedy isn't the end of the story

the resurrection is the end of the story

and so then you wonder what that means

psychologically because what you see in

psychotherapeutic session

in the psychotherapeutic milieu is that

if you get people to expose themselves

to what they're terrified of

being terrified isn't the end of the

story

recovering is the end of the story

and so that begs the question is like

well to what degree are we capable of

bearing suffering and prevailing and the

answer might be

to the degree that we're capable of

confronting it forthrightly

and that might actually just be true

and you know you think well

how could it be otherwise in some sense

like what's going to call the best out

of you if it isn't the most what's most

challenging

because it's not that easy to get the

best called out of you it's not going to

just happen because someone rings your

doorbell right you have to be shook to

the core before you're going to

undertake what's necessary to make the

sacrifices that are required to put you

in

alignment that's

that doesn't happen with no reason

so

well so

are you grateful for your suffering as a

consequence of that

i don't know that's a high standard man

that's a high standard

[Music]

you