Divine Renovation Interview with Fr James Mallon Part 5
Summary
TLDRIn this session, Peter Herbeck from Renewal Ministries discusses 'Divine Renovation' with Father James Mallon, exploring the Holy Spirit's role in transforming parishes from maintenance to mission. They emphasize the necessity of a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit and experiential faith to empower church growth. The conversation touches on overcoming obstacles like clericalism and pelagianism, and the importance of embracing the Holy Spirit for effective evangelization. Resources and upcoming events related to the book are also mentioned.
Takeaways
- 📚 Peter Herbeck and Father James Mallon discuss the importance of 'Divine Renovation', a book by Father Mallon that aims to shift parishes from maintenance to mission.
- 🔥 The Holy Spirit is identified as the driving force behind the mission of the church, essential for the realization of the ideas discussed in the book.
- 🌪️ The concept of a 'New Pentecost' is introduced, signifying a renewed outpouring of the Holy Spirit to empower the church for the new evangelization.
- 👤 The necessity for a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit is emphasized, as many Catholics believe in but do not have a personal connection with the Holy Spirit.
- 🙏 There is a call for everyone to have an experiential faith, to not only know about the Holy Spirit but to experience its power in their lives.
- 🔑 The sacraments, particularly confirmation, are highlighted as moments of receiving the Holy Spirit, but there is a challenge to ensure these are accompanied by a transformative experience.
- 🏆 Pope John Paul II is quoted, emphasizing the need for the Holy Spirit to create movement within the church and the lives of believers.
- 🌟 The Holy Spirit is described as God's love poured out into our hearts, enabling us to cry out 'Abba Father' and know our identity as children of God.
- 🏛️ The church is encouraged to create spaces for the Holy Spirit to work, such as through prayer and spiritual retreats, leading to life-changing encounters.
- 🛑 The script addresses the need to clear out 'junk' or obstacles, such as clericalism and pelagianism, that hinder the work of the Holy Spirit in the church.
- 📈 Pelagianism is critiqued as a heresy that undermines the necessity of God's grace, promoting a culture of minimalism and moralism rather than a life empowered by the Holy Spirit.
Q & A
What is the main topic of the book 'Divine Renovation' by Father James Mallon?
-The book 'Divine Renovation' focuses on transforming parishes from a state of maintenance to a mission-driven approach, emphasizing the role of the Holy Spirit in this transformation.
Why is experiencing the Holy Spirit considered essential for the church's mission according to the discussion?
-Experiencing the Holy Spirit is essential because it empowers individuals with a personal relationship and a sense of God's power, which is necessary for effective evangelization and missionary discipleship.
What is meant by 'new evangelization' in the context of the discussion?
-The 'new evangelization' refers to a renewed effort to spread the Christian faith, which requires a 'new Pentecost' or a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit to empower believers for this mission.
Why is there a need for a 'new Pentecost' according to Ralph Martin?
-A 'new Pentecost' is needed because the first wave of evangelization was empowered by the Holy Spirit, and a similar empowerment is necessary for the new evangelization to be effective.
What is the significance of having a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit as discussed in the transcript?
-Having a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit is significant because it allows for an experiential faith and a deeper understanding of God's power, which is crucial for living out one's faith and being an effective missionary disciple.
Why do some Catholics struggle with developing a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
-Some Catholics struggle with this because the Holy Spirit can seem abstract or 'weird' to relate to personally, especially when compared to the more relatable figures of God the Father and Jesus Christ.
What is the importance of the sacraments in receiving the Holy Spirit according to Catholic theology?
-Sacraments such as Baptism and Confirmation are seen as channels through which the Holy Spirit is received, but the discussion points out the need for these sacraments to be accompanied by a tangible, transformative experience of God's power.
What did Father James Mallon mean by 'junk' in the context of Chapter Four of 'Divine Renovation'?
-The 'junk' refers to obstacles such as clericalism and pelagianism that hinder the working of the Holy Spirit and prevent individuals and the church from moving forward in their mission.
What is the heresy of pelagianism and how does it relate to the church's evangelization efforts?
-Pelagianism is a heresy that denies the need for God's grace, suggesting that humans can achieve salvation through their own efforts. This mindset can undermine evangelization by reducing Christianity to moralism and minimizing the transformative power of God's grace.
How can parishes and communities foster an encounter with the Holy Spirit according to the transcript?
-Communities can foster such encounters by creating spaces for the Holy Spirit to work, such as through prayer meetings, retreats, and by intentionally calling upon the Holy Spirit in various gatherings, as exemplified by the Alpha experience.
What is the role of the Holy Spirit in making missionary disciples as discussed in the transcript?
-The Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in making missionary disciples by empowering individuals with divine love and grace, enabling them to live out their baptismal and confirmation promises and to share the Gospel with others effectively.
Outlines
🌟 Empowering the Church through the Holy Spirit
In this segment, Peter Herbeck and Father James Mallon discuss the critical role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church, as outlined in the book 'Divine Renovation'. They emphasize the necessity of a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit, which is often overlooked in favor of relationships with God the Father and Jesus Christ. The speakers highlight the importance of experiential faith and the church's need for a 'new Pentecost' to empower its members for the mission of evangelization. They also address common misconceptions and barriers to embracing the Holy Spirit's power, such as the reduction of the Holy Spirit to mere theory and the reluctance to engage in experiential worship. The conversation underscores the transformative potential of the Holy Spirit in the lives of individuals and the church as a whole.
🚀 The Holy Spirit: Catalyst for Missionary Discipleship
This paragraph delves into the concept of creating missionary disciples through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Pope Benedict XVI's perspective is cited, emphasizing that effective missionary work requires being 'clothed with power from on high'. The speakers discuss the transformative experience of the Holy Spirit as a catalyst for movement within the church and individuals' lives. They mention 'Lumen Gentium' 36, which speaks to the shared power to conquer sin and spread the gospel. The Alpha experience is highlighted as a practical example of facilitating such encounters with the Holy Spirit, leading to life-changing conversions. The importance of repeatedly invoking the Holy Spirit in various church gatherings is also stressed, as is the recognition that the Holy Spirit is essential for reaching the unchurched and non-Christians in a post-modern society that seeks experiential validation of faith.
🛠 Clearing Obstacles to the Holy Spirit's Work
The discussion in this paragraph focuses on identifying and addressing theological and practical obstacles that hinder the Holy Spirit's work within the church and individual believers. The concept of 'clericalism' and 'Pelagianism' or 'neo-Pelagianism' are examined as examples of such obstacles. Pelagianism, an early church heresy denying original sin and the necessity of divine grace, is contrasted with the Catholic belief in the transformative power of God's grace through Jesus Christ. The speakers argue that misunderstandings about grace can lead to a culture of minimalism within the church, where the focus shifts from the necessity of God's grace to a moralistic approach to faith. This can undermine the church's evangelizing mission and the believer's experience of a new life in the Holy Spirit, which is central to the Christian faith.
📚 Resources and Prayer for Divine Renovation
The final paragraph provides information on how to obtain Father James Mallon's book 'Divine Renovation' and engage with the resources and community associated with its message. It mentions the book's popularity, with multiple printings and translations available, and the existence of a reader's guide and a forthcoming workbook for practical implementation. Details about a conference and a website, divinerenovation.net, are provided for those interested in further exploration of the book's themes. The paragraph concludes with a prayer for the listeners, invoking the Holy Spirit to inspire a passion for change and a renewal of the church, guided by hope and the recognition of God's life-giving power.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Divine Renovation
💡Holy Spirit
💡New Evangelization
💡Experiential Faith
💡Personal Relationship
💡Pentecost
💡Missionary Disciples
💡Post-Modern Society
💡Sacramental Theology
💡Pelagianism
💡Minimalism
Highlights
Peter Herbeck and Father James Mallon discuss the importance of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church and the concept of 'Divine Renovation'.
The necessity of a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit for the realization of a parish's mission.
The historical context of the term 'Holy Ghost' and its transition to 'Holy Spirit', affecting how people relate to the Holy Spirit.
The challenge of experiencing the Holy Spirit's power in a personal way, as opposed to a purely intellectual understanding.
The role of the Holy Spirit in the new evangelization and the need for a 'new Pentecost' to empower it.
The importance of experiential faith and the Holy Spirit's power in making missionary disciples.
The contrast between the sacramental reception of the Holy Spirit and the lack of a subsequent transformative experience.
The theological abstractions that may hinder the recognition of the Holy Spirit's power in daily life.
The transformative effect of the Holy Spirit's power on individuals and communities, as seen in youth ministry experiences.
The need to move beyond theoretical knowledge to a lived experience of the Holy Spirit's power.
The significance of the Holy Spirit in creating movement within the church and the role of personal experiences in this process.
The importance of ongoing encounters with the Holy Spirit's power for the vitality of the Christian faith.
The role of the Holy Spirit in overcoming obstacles within the church and personal lives.
The impact of the Holy Spirit on fostering a culture of holiness and mission within the church.
The practical steps taken by parishes to facilitate encounters with the Holy Spirit, such as retreats and prayer sessions.
The importance of recognizing and addressing clericalism and pelagianism as obstacles to the Holy Spirit's work.
The theological implications of pelagianism and its practical effects on the church's evangelization efforts.
The need for a proper understanding of grace and original sin to effectively share the Gospel.
The importance of the Holy Spirit in creating a new creation in believers, beyond moral striving.
The upcoming Divine Renovation conference and resources available for those interested in the discussed topics.
A closing prayer for the listeners, invoking the Holy Spirit's grace for their personal and communal renewal.
Transcripts
welcome friends i'm Peter Herbeck from renewal ministries and we're in session five with father
James Mallon the author of I think a very important book and a timely book in the
life of the church it's called divine renovation bringing your parish from maintenance to mission
and session five is about the engine that drives it all the holy spirit and how we can
live in the holy how it's essential to live in the holy spirit for any of this stuff that you've
talked about to become a reality well we speak about the new evangelization and i've heard ralph
martin say many times you know in order to have a new evangelization we need a new pentecost because
the first wave evangelization was was it came as a result of of the empowering by the holy spirit
and it's number nine in my list of ten values that the churches that are actually make producing
missionary disciples uh rely on one of their values is for everyone to have an experience
of the power of the holy spirit this is important language everyone to have an
experience we're talking about experiential faith and for it to be an experience of god's power
i think you know a lot of catholics uh they certainly you say you believe in the holy spirit
they say of course i believe in the holy spirit but but often um a couple of things happen there
is there's not a personal relationship with the holy spirit people have a sense of relationship
with god the father they can relate to father image of course with with jesus even people
have a personal encounter with jesus that comes to the holy spirit it's a bit weird you know because
i don't know if you remember i remember before the holy spirit had had a name change yeah it
was called holy ghost right it was like how do you experience how do you have a relationship
with the holy ghost but yeah but we're not just called to have a personal relationship god we're
called to have a tri-personal relationship with god so that's number one people often
don't have any kind of relationship with the holy spirit they often never pray to the holy spirit
and so that's that's an obstacle we have to overcome secondly we we've almost reduced the
holy spirit i believe in our theology and spirituality as almost a theory we we know
intellectually that we've received the holy spirit when we were baptized we received the holy spirit
through the sacraments which i totally believe we receive the holy spirit confirmation but how is it
and i've seen hundreds and hundreds of teenagers some of them gum chewing eye rolling teenagers
receiving the holy spirit and you never see them again you never see them again
and look totally bored out of their minds like this is not an experience of power this is not
what has been described in the new testament now granted the sacraments you don't have to have an
accompanying subjective experience to know that they're valid but then we have to face the issue
in our sacramental theology is what is a valid sacrament if there's no fruitfulness these are
theological categories these are ontological you know uh you know medieval um scholastic categories
of thought that that really are abstractions like in the end if if a sacrament isn't changing your
life what are we oh this is almost heretical who cares if it's valid he's making no difference you
know and so what what does the new testament say jesus said before he ascended to the father stay
in the city until you are clothed with power from on high with power and i think this is the thing
is the need for people to experience the holy spirit as as the experience of power we're often
shy in the church today of of of experiential faith we're we're very safe in our heads
uh we're very much children of the enlightenment we're very much in love with the idea of a reality
uh rather than experiencing the reality itself and and i think when it comes to the holy spirit
we're sometimes fearful uh you know the holy spirit that's what those crazy people do on
tuesday nights in the church basement they're into that stuff we're we don't do that stuff
and so there's this shying away of an experience of power and i think that we block often here's
my conviction is that often times and i know this because of my own life peter i i i live uh almost
it's to some degree a shallow version of the christian faith because it's the times when i've
experienced god's power through the holy spirit that it's it's almost revealed to me is how much
most of the time i'm lacking that a power that's available to me that i because i just accepted is
is is being normative to live this way normative to live with a little tiny experience of power but
when you experience power you experience power you never forget yeah i think one of the one of
the things pope john paul ii said that touch me he always points back to acts chapter 1 verse 8.
that's building on what you're talking about being clothed with power here it is just before
jesus ascends to heaven he says you know you receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you
and you will be my witnesses he said i'm the one who will baptize you with my spirit and
pope benedict said here's the summit of jesus's mission jesus came down should we be his witnesses
how can we make missionary disciples i mean what is making it means to make if they have not been
clothed with power from on high it ain't going to work this is why we can't be afraid of this stuff
we've got to step out of our boxes and say lord we're willing to trust that that this is beyond
uh strategy this is beyond good ideas and good programs and and staying in our safe limitations
we've got to call down and call upon the power of the holy spirit here's an important point um again
pope john paul ii he said in the scripture the power that the holy spirit gives creates movement
and it's a good question say am i moving where am i moving toward lumigentium 36 talks about
our king the king has given us a share in his power to conquer sin in us and to share the
gospel with others holiness and mission he's given us power to move into the very thing we're called
love god love neighbor make disciples some people have said you know and so it without it without
that encounter with power we're not going to go there because of the flesh because of the world
because the stuff that holds us back and obstacles within the church you know you mentioned you mean
but the power is that you know who's the spirit is god's love poured out to our heart
into our hearts so that our spirits cry out abba father and this is when when truly we
know who we are as sons and daughters of god when we have that experience of god's love
being poured into our hearts now how do we do that concretely this is one of the great things about
the alpha experience is at the heart about 60 of the way through the the course people go on a holy
spirit uh weekend away and usually it's common for 60 to 70 percent of the participants to go
and this these days culminate in an experience of being prayed over
to experience the power of god and guess what the holy spirit touches people people have their lives
changed it's unbelievable yeah and we see it again and again and we don't we just have to create the
space and step back the holy spirit touches hearts and people are converted and it's an experience of
god's power and here's the other thing we do at the parish is we go back to that again and again
we constantly call on the holy spirit whether it's at staff meetings or ministry meetings or
when we bring our ministry leaders together for those leadership summits we finish every
single session laying on hands and calling on the holy spirit to come in power because
the experience of being filled with the holy spirit that experiential thing
is something of course that goes away and my own need in my own life is i'm so weak and broken that
i need that as often as i can because then i know that it's it's it's not me that's that's working
that there's a power grip greater than me it it worked and so seeking that experience but
we're often in the church we're shy of these experiences but here's one one final thing
if we're going to reach the unchurched the the fallen away the non-christians you see
in the past in a kind of a more modern uh mindset uh the primary question for people was maybe is
it true but in a post-modern society the primary question that people are asking is not is it true
so when we lead as the church with the truth the truth the truth the truth now i'm all about the
truth but that's not the question people the 90 of people are not asking that question they're asking
does it will it work for me i mean look at all the weird new age stuff people are into they're
looking for experience that will make a difference in their life that's the primary question they're
asking does it work and so as a tool again to reach the young church to bring them to conversion
and to living the life of a missionary decide but that experience of god's power is key once they
have that then they begin to be interested in the truth uh but that's that's that's very good and i
think one of the reasons why alpha and maybe other instruments like it are so effective is they speak
to a post-christian culture right a post-modern culture they don't have any expectation there's an
introduction to the person of jesus but there's a conviction and the knowledge the expectation
that the holy spirit is its primary mission is to reveal to every human heart the person of jesus
christ yes and so you present the kerygma you present the basic gospel message and it's not
something by my willpower that i'm going to make happen that's what paul said when my gospel came
to you i came in fear and trembling but when my gospel came to you it came to you in power
so that you knew that your faith was based on the power of the holy spirit and not on somebody's
intelligence that's exactly what sin paul says and in the early church of course people people
came to christ and then were were filled with the holy spirit they had this experience
of power and this is the thing we have great plans great theology uh great statements and and in the
end often one of the things that's lacking is this experience of god's power the experience
of the holy spirit second pope benedict at one point said what the church needs now are witnesses
who have been touched intimately and personally by the power of the holy spirit and they know
it exactly and they know it exactly that that's a gigantic game changer the holy spirit is the
game changer really jesus said i will send him he will speak to you imagine having a parish where
where sixty seventy percent of your people in your parish have been taught intimately touched
by the power of the holy spirit and they know it you know my in my parish christ the king and are
not perfect but there's that very experience i mean that people know i mean we had almost 90
of the people come to church every weekend but people are engaged in raising their families
they know they're on a mission it's because of the role of the power of the holy spirit and how
our our parishes and the communities around help lead people into an encounter with the lord as a
process a key process of discipleship now we've got a few minutes left and there's a chapter in
here i found very interesting it's a little bit of a theological chapter chapter four he said
clearing out the junk and that there's junk that sometimes that we're holding on to that
becomes an obstacle to the working of the holy spirit which ends up stagnating us and being
able to move forward can you talk about that a little bit we talked about the first one that
i mentioned that was clericalism and the second one in that chapter is pelagianism or what i've
called neoplagianism meaning a reemergence of an old idea is there's nothing new under the sun
and pelagianism was a heresy in the early church in the fourth and fifth centuries later after that
there was what was called semi-pelagianism but then the person who combated this way of thinking
the most was saint augustine and the essential point of pelagianism was basically was the denial
of original sin basically that jesus is a savior to us in the sense that he shows us how to love
he models for us love and that example is enough uh we don't essentially need god's grace but the
truth is the catholic position is no no jesus yes he models love for us but he is the one
it work in us through grace who enables us to do what needs to be done he doesn't just show us how
to do it he does it in us and through us through through his grace and this is a key point because
it reveals to us our need that by ourselves separate from god's grace we cannot please god
like the default position is that we're outside of god's grace we need salvation and and
and the whole thing is how can you expect a church to evangelize which means to spread the
good news if deep down we don't believe there's any good news because if there's no bad news there
can't be good news if i say to you congratulations you're you're cancer-free you're going to say well
i never had cancer you you you're not going to be excited by this news but if you
thought you had two months to live you're going to be very excited you're going to pick up the phone
and start telling people and so if if we don't have a proper understanding of the bad news we
can't we're never going to be excited about the good news we're never going to share the good news
we're not going to feel any uh compulsion to to to share the good news with others because we don't
believe they've got cancer either and also i think what results from from pelagianism is is a culture
of minimalism we talked about culture in many of our churches the culture the predominant norm
is minimalism tell me the bare minimum remember there was used to be in catechism uh circles like
question about how much of the mass can i miss and have it still count right you
know it's like this bare minimum like and and why is that because well when you go shopping
you look for the lowest price if you're buying it if you're if you're earning it you look for
them for the most economical way to do it and so pelagianism breeds a culture of minimalism it also
takes away the ability of the church to evangelize and if you talk about the experience of the holy
spirit who needs the holy spirit who needs a spirit of power if we can do it by our own
power right there's that whole willpower thing and then christianity gets reduced to a kind of
moralism a moral striving and christianity is a new life in the holy spirit it's living a new
way of life a new power a new capacity is given to us we can't we can't call our people to something
that and expect them to do it by virtue of just moral striving we have to lead them into a full
encounter of their baptismal and confirmation graces that power to live a new way sometimes it
said you know like you know be the best version of yourself you know jesus didn't come to me
to make us a better version of ourselves he came to make us a new creation
yeah that's the language of the new testament a new creation i will put a new heart in you
and uh and this is this is through the power of god's spirit but the the pelagian thing is very
present in our church it's a it's a heresy in our church but it's rife in terms of practically how
people are relating to the life yeah yeah or even you'll hear people say well if anyone deserves to
get into heaven she does because she did this well wait a minute i thought we got into heaven
by by living a life of faith and love through through the grace and power of christ this is
you know we go about things with with a pelagian mindset and we need to identify that and really uh
embrace the reality of grace uh otherwise it will just be a lovely tune played on the bagpipes we
just have a couple of minutes one thing i'd like you to do father is tell people how can they get
the book and be in touch with what you're doing because i know people are calling you can't go
out everywhere help people understand how they can connect and then i'd like you to close
us with a prayer for the grace of the holy spirit for all those who are listening
very grateful for what's happening the book i think it's in in the united states in its sixth or
seventh printing after a year which is amazing uh spanish translation is out uh french translation
is coming uh there's a reader's guide that's been published by 23rd publications you can get there
on their website and also we have a website divinerenovation.net uh that includes podcasts
about for now once a month we're putting up a new podcast on different aspects of what we talk about
in the book also we're having a conference next june june 13th and 14th the website will be up uh
in the next couple of months possibly the time you you're watching this
and uh check that out we'd love for you to join us we get people coming from all over the place
and also there's a workbook in the works so we're working with a number of people
uh the folks at amazing parish to create a workbook that is more of a how-to because
this is more a theology and model to inspire and not so much a how-to it's a great starting point
for priests and religious particular people who have some theological formation in the
background but not limited to that but it gives them something to put a situate this whole thing
so father you know everybody is listening wants to move their parish from maintenance to mission
and fundamentally it's a work of god through us and i wonder if you could just close us
with a prayer absolutely the outpouring of the holy spirit of grace of the new pentecost in
the lives of our listeners and the father and son holy spirit i mean lord god we thank you
for the tools of communication and for the men and women who are watching this video right now lord
send your holy spirit upon them help them to be in touch with that holy discontent lord and inflame
that discontent into a passion for change a passion that is built on hope true hope lord that
you are the lord the giver of life you are the one who is able to bring forth life you are the source
of renewal in in in your church bless these men and women uh guide them help them to have
to have good teams around them and help them to go go forth with boldness uh with confidence in you
uh to work to do everything they can to see your church renewed bless them
we pray through christ our lord amen great being with you father thanks thanks peter
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