Divine Renovation: An Interview with Fr Mallon Part 2

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Peter Herbeck and Father James Malan explore the concept of 'Divine Renovation,' emphasizing the transformation of parishes from maintenance to mission. They highlight the importance of vision in leadership, with Malan drawing parallels to Martin Luther King Jr.'s 'I Have a Dream' speech to illustrate the power of a compelling vision. The conversation delves into the role of the priesthood in guiding the Church, the necessity of overcoming clericalism to foster mature discipleship, and the strategy of communicating this vision through homilies and engaging key stakeholders to build a united and dynamic parish.

Takeaways

• 📚 The book 'Divine Renovation' by Father James Malan is a guide for parishes to transition from maintenance to mission, focusing on becoming communities of missionary disciples as emphasized by Pope Francis.
• 🌟 Vision is about the future and should be a picture that excites and stirs passion, much like Martin Luther King's 'I Have a Dream' speech, which was not about a plan but a dream.
• 🎯 Leadership within the Church is hierarchical and the role of priests in shaping the vision is crucial, with the pastor's passions and personality often reflecting in the parish over time.
• 💡 The first task of vision is to define it and communicate it to others in a way that is compelling and wins people over to the cause, not just posting it in a bulletin.
• 🔍 Each person, whether a pastor or in any ministry, should have a dream for the future of their ministry that excites them and should be encouraged to articulate this vision.
• 🚌 The metaphor of the 'bus' is used to describe the process of communicating vision, where the leader must ensure everyone knows where the bus is going before boarding.
• 🔑 The role of the leader is to cast vision and then win people to it, which involves more than just preaching but also personal engagement with key stakeholders.
• 🔄 The process of change should not be rushed from vision to implementation without ensuring that the congregation understands and is on board with the vision.
• 👂 Listening to the congregation and addressing their concerns is vital in the process of visioning, as it helps to motivate and engage them in the change process.
• 👨‍👧‍👦 Clericalism is identified as a barrier to discipleship, where the clergy take on roles that should belong to the baptized, hindering the growth and maturity of the laity.
• 🌱 The ultimate goal of pastoral care is to help believers grow to maturity in Christ, which is hindered by a culture of dependency fostered by clericalism.

Q & A

What is the main theme of the book 'Divine Renovation' by Father James Malan?

The book 'Divine Renovation' focuses on the transformation of parishes from a maintenance mindset to a mission-oriented approach, emphasizing the development of communities of missionary disciples as inspired by Pope Francis.

What does Father James Malan suggest as the first step in leading a parish towards a vision?

The first step is for the leader, typically the priest, to have a clear vision of the future that is exciting and passionate, and then to communicate this vision to the congregation effectively.

How does Father Malan describe the role of a leader in casting vision?

A leader casts vision by painting a picture of the future that is so compelling it stirs passion and excitement, similar to how Martin Luther King Jr. presented his dream on the Washington Mall.

What is the importance of the hierarchical structure in the Church according to the transcript?

The hierarchical structure signifies that the Church is led by priests, which is dogmatically defined and crucial for the leadership role within the priesthood to guide the vision and mission of the Church.

Why is it crucial for a priest to communicate the vision to the congregation?

Communication of the vision is essential to win people over to the cause, making them excited about the future direction of the parish and ensuring they understand and support the changes being implemented.

What does Father Malan suggest as a method for leaders to find their vision?

He suggests that leaders should tell their story, identify the things that drive them crazy, and use that frustration as a catalyst for their vision, as it represents the opposite of what they desire to see in their ministry.

How often did Father Malan recommend preaching a visioning homily in his parish?

Father Malan recommended preaching a visioning homily every three weeks to keep reminding the congregation about the vision and purpose of their actions and changes.

What is the significance of the Sunday homily in communicating the vision to the congregation?

The Sunday homily is a key tool for a priest to communicate the vision because it allows them to speak directly to the entire congregation, ensuring that everyone is informed and aligned with the vision.

What is clericalism and why is it an issue in the Church according to Father Malan?

Clergyism is the inappropriate appropriation by the clerical caste of what is proper to the baptized, leading to a lack of personal responsibility and maturity among the laity. It is an issue because it hinders the growth and discipleship of believers.

How does Father Malan define the role of a priest in relation to the congregation's spiritual growth?

Father Malan defines the role of a priest as a shepherd who is meant to feed the sheep, with the goal of helping them grow to spiritual maturity, rather than acting as a spiritual surrogate for the laity.

What is the importance of identifying and winning over key stakeholders when implementing change in a parish?

Identifying and winning over key stakeholders is crucial because it ensures that influential members of the community are aligned with the vision and can help support and drive the changes, preventing division and resistance.

Outlines

00:00

📚 The Role of Vision in Parish Leadership

In the first paragraph, Peter Herbeck and Father James Malan discuss the concept of vision in the context of church leadership. They emphasize that vision is about defining a future that excites and motivates, using Martin Luther King Jr.'s 'I Have a Dream' speech as an example. The paragraph highlights the importance of leaders, particularly priests, in shaping the vision of a parish. It also touches on the idea that a leader's passion can significantly influence the direction of a parish. The summary encourages leaders to articulate and communicate their vision, not just as a plan, but as a compelling picture of the future that inspires others to join the mission.

05:03

🔥 Harnessing Discontent to Fuel Visionary Leadership

The second paragraph delves into the idea that frustration can be a catalyst for visionary leadership. It discusses the potential negative outcomes of unaddressed frustration, such as cynicism and despair, but also posits that a 'godly discontent' can be harnessed to drive positive change. The speaker shares personal experiences of being driven by a desire to improve the maturity and engagement of Catholic believers. He emphasizes the importance of communicating this vision through preaching and winning people over to the cause. The summary underscores the need for leaders to identify and articulate their vision, using their own experiences of discontent as a mirror to the future they wish to create.

10:06

🤝 The Importance of Communication and Community in Visionary Leadership

In the third paragraph, the focus shifts to the practical aspects of communicating a vision within a parish. It discusses the牧师's role in preaching the Sunday homily as a key method for conveying the vision to the congregation. The speaker also addresses the issue of clericalism, defining it as the clerical caste's inappropriate claim over what belongs to the baptized. The paragraph argues against a clergy-centric model and instead promotes a community-based approach where members care for one another. The summary highlights the need for leaders to take control of their message, identify key stakeholders, and involve them in the visioning process to foster a sense of ownership and unity.

15:06

🛠 Building a Leadership Team for a Missionary Parish

The final paragraph serves as a transition to the next topic, which is forming a leadership team. It emphasizes the importance of vision and communication in achieving the goal of becoming a missionary parish. The speaker suggests that having a clear vision is crucial for guiding the formation of a leadership team that can effectively lead the parish towards its mission. The summary points out the significance of a unified vision in building a strong leadership foundation that is essential for the transformation of a parish into a vibrant, outward-focused community of believers.

Keywords

💡Divine Renovation

Divine Renovation is a book by Father James Malan that serves as the central theme of the video. It deals with the transformation of parishes from a maintenance mindset to a mission-oriented one. The book is mentioned as one of the best on the subject of moving from a static to a dynamic church community, as illustrated by the discussion on how to become communities of missionary disciples as envisioned by Pope Francis.

💡Missionary Disciples

Missionary disciples are Christians who are actively engaged in spreading the faith and making disciples of all nations, as instructed by Jesus. In the video, the concept is tied to the idea of moving parishes from maintenance to mission, emphasizing the need for church communities to be more than just receivers of faith but also active in sharing it.

💡Vision

Vision in this context refers to a clear and inspiring picture of the future that a leader has for their community or organization. It is defined by the speaker as something that excites and stirs passion, using Martin Luther King Jr.'s 'I Have a Dream' speech as an example. The video emphasizes the importance of a leader's vision in casting a direction for the parish and inspiring others to join in that vision.

💡Leadership

Leadership is a key concept in the video, particularly in the hierarchical structure of the Church where priests play a crucial role. The script discusses the leader's role in casting vision and the importance of communication in winning people over to that vision. It also touches on the idea that everyone has the capacity to be a visionary and a leader.

💡Clergy Centric

Clergy centric refers to a model of church operation where the clergy are seen as the primary or sole providers of spiritual care and leadership. The video criticizes this model, suggesting it is insufficient for creating a mature and engaged community of believers. Instead, the speaker advocates for a shift towards a more communal and participatory model of discipleship.

💡Clericalism

Clericalism is defined in the video as the inappropriate appropriation by the clergy of what is proper to the baptized. It involves a mindset where the clergy see themselves as the only ones responsible for spiritual matters, and the laity passively accept this role, leading to a lack of personal engagement and maturity in faith. The speaker argues that overcoming clericalism is essential for the growth of the Church.

💡Maturity

Maturity in the context of the video refers to the spiritual growth and development of believers to a level of personal relationship with Jesus, knowledge of Scriptures, and active participation in the Church's mission. The lack of maturity is identified as a problem that the speaker is passionate about addressing, with the goal of moving towards a Church community where all members are growing and contributing to the mission.

💡Homily

A homily is a sermon or religious discourse delivered usually by a priest during a worship service. In the video, the speaker discusses the importance of the homily as a tool for communicating vision to the congregation. It is mentioned as a key method for the priest to inspire and guide the community towards the shared vision of becoming missionary disciples.

💡Discipleship

Discipleship involves the process of learning from and following Jesus Christ as one's spiritual leader. The video emphasizes the need for Catholics to be engaged in discipleship, moving beyond passive participation to active engagement in the Church's mission. The speaker's vision includes equipping people for ministry and sending them out to make more disciples.

💡Midsize Groups

Midsize groups, as mentioned in the video, refer to communities of about 20 to 30 people that meet regularly in homes for support, prayer, and growth in faith. These groups are part of the speaker's vision for creating a more connected and caring church community, where members are known, loved, and cared for beyond the traditional clergy-centric model.

Highlights

The importance of a leader in casting vision for a parish, emphasizing the role of priests in shaping the vision.

A vision should be a picture of the future that stirs passion and excitement, like Martin Luther King's 'I Have a Dream' speech.

The hierarchical nature of the Church and the significance of priests leading the vision.

The necessity for leaders to communicate their vision effectively to inspire others to join the mission.

The role of pastors in shaping the vision of a parish and reflecting their passions and personality.

Encouragement for leaders to define their vision for the future of their ministry and to articulate it vividly.

The idea that everyone has the capacity to become a better leader and to be visionary, regardless of their current abilities.

The suggestion to tell one's story as a way to find and express one's vision.

The concept of 'godly discontent' as a driving force for change and vision realization.

The importance of addressing the frustration that arises from the gap between inspiration and reality.

The牧师's vision for a dynamic and vibrant Sunday Eucharist that fosters an outward-focused community.

The牧师's approach to communicating vision through regular preaching and engaging the congregation.

The牧师's strategy for identifying and winning over key stakeholders in the parish to support the vision.

The牧师's emphasis on the importance of the Sunday homily as a primary tool for vision communication.

The牧师's discussion on the role of mid-sized groups in creating a sense of community and care within the parish.

The牧师's critique of clericalism and its impact on the maturity and discipleship of the laity.

The牧师's call to overcome clericalism by encouraging laypeople to take on their proper roles in the Church.

The牧师's vision for a parish that is life-giving, nurturing spiritual growth, and producing mature believers.

Transcripts

I'm Peter Herbeck we're back again with

father James Malan the author of divine

renovation bringing your parish from

maintenance to Mission really one of the

one of the best maybe I think the best

book out right now I have to tell you

it's the best book I've read on the

issue of how do we actually move from

maintenance to Mission how do we become

like Pope Francis's communities of

missionary disciples okay we ended last

program you just began to touch on the

role of the leader of casting vision yes

and how that happened so let's let's

cover that I think to begin with we've

got a define vision is about where we

desire to go it's it's about the future

that makes us so excited that I can't

sleep at night I think of one of the

great vision statements Martin Luther

King on the Washington Mall he didn't

get up and say I have a plan he didn't

say I have a strategy I have an idea I

have a I have a to-do list he said I

have a dream and he painted a dream that

was beautiful and moving and stirring

that's a vision a picture of the future

that makes you passionate makes you

excited but and I think this is one of

the most crucial things in the the in

the for the task of a leader and we are

a hierarchical Church which means

doesn't mean that's we're a structured

Church it means we are led by priests

that word heroes and archaea means means

led by priests that's that's that's

dogmatically defined that's who we are

as it is a church and so the role of

leadership within the task of the

priesthood is key and I'm going to talk

about a bit a bit more of this so you

can't be avoided in its first of all to

to be in touch with with a vision and to

communicate that vision to others and by

communicating it I don't just mean you

know post it in the in the bulletin I

mean you're gonna win people to it you

got it you got to like make people go

wow I would love to be a part of that

and so vision if it's a picture of the

future that makes you passionate it's

all about where are we going because if

you're going to say we're going to be a

missionary parish that means we're going

to be a parish that's going somewhere

okay so if you're gonna say let's go bow

this question is well where are we going

well that's it if you're gonna go

anywhere if you don't know where you're

gone

anywhere will get you there right so

you've got to know what you're going and

so I think this is really key and that

means that even before the pastor sits

down with a pastoral council or a

leadership team to enunciate shared

vision the pastor can't be shy about the

fact that as leader he's gonna have a

huge impact in the shaping of that

vision it's no coincidences that

perishes after a number of years will

end up reflecting the passions and

personality of the pastor the things the

pastor is passionate about won't be

reflected within the patch because he's

because he's a leader so the first task

then under vision is for that for each

person listening whether you're a a

pastor or a ministry or whatever you do

what is the dream for the future of your

ministry that makes you incredibly

excited and I even encourage you to

write it down don't write down a plan

don't tell me how you're gonna get there

paint the picture tell me what does it

look like what does it smell like what's

happening you said the sign on the bus

then you said in that computing the sign

on the bus is about communicating that's

about letting others that know where the

bus is going I see but before you put

the sign on sign on you that wants to be

on the sign itself Rights Act Lee yeah

exactly so now here's the thing people

will say well I may be one of your gifts

as being a is being visionary nuts that

is one of the gifts that I have but

here's the thing I think that people

have different leadership capacities but

everyone is the capacity to become a

better leader and and everyone you know

if you're in the priesthood if you give

your life you you had a passion you had

a vision that burned in your heart and

everyone has it everyone is it has

capacity to be a visionary and here's I

believe one way to find it it tell your

story when Iced years ago I when I still

go to conferences like I had this

burning desire in my heart to see we're

know within within parishes and I go to

conferences and I hear these amazing

speakers and I'd have a simultaneous

reaction I'd be like ah this is amazing

it's so inspiring

I'd be like absolutely on fire and

convicted and then I think about my

parish and I get totally depressed and

it was weird it's like here I'm I'm

inspired and the prayer

at the same time and and the temptation

I think is is to is to allow the the

reality in in the face of what we feel

call to to to get us down to to make a

just give up and say why bother but why

bother but you've got you got to be in

that zone and you've got to begin from

from where you are and I think that that

frustration because if you get inspired

and then you look at your reality what's

going to come from that is a sense of

frustration that doesn't have to be a

bad thing that can be a good to know it

can be a bad thing it can lead to

negativity into despair and lack of

cynicism and cynicism anger bitterness

and I've had to struggle with that in my

own life I've had to number of times

I've had to repent and bring that beat

before the Lord but I believe there's a

godly discontent that is a good thing

Jeremiah talks about you know the fire

burning in his bones he can't keep it in

there is a sense of find the thing that

drives you crazy and and and don't

medicate it don't don't hide it let it

come to the fore and in a godly way I

think for instance of a mosquito bite

you know if you ever been bitten by a

mosquito there's this sense of you want

to scratch it but you know if you

scratch it will get worse well I say

scratch it scratch

that's where ditch is then scratch the

itch of your discontent and the I say

this because the very thing that drives

you crazy is the mirror image of what

will be your vision for exempted how did

how did that work for you like

concretely what it look like it worked

for me because I desire to see a parish

what drove me crazy was the the lack of

maturity in in in Catholic believers

maturity didn't even seem to be an issue

you know Mitch to be a mature believer

that's the priests job 12 me crazy the

fact that so few Catholics are engaged

in discipleship the fact that a lot of

Catholics don't seem to know the Lord

and a personal way they don't read the

scriptures know what drove me crazy is

is is the celebrations of the Eucharist

that are dead there's like a zombie

convention you know I remember one time

this kid saying to me oh I don't like

Mass I find it boring I said you know

something you're boring I have to stand

up there look at your face if you think

you're a boring like I that drove me

crazy and

what does that tell me it tells me that

my vision my passion is to have a Sun

experience of Sunday Eucharist that is

dynamic vibrant it's alive a community

that is outward focused not inward focus

there's making disciples bringing people

to Jesus bringing people to maturity has

communities of authentic love and caring

and they're equipping people for

ministry and sending them out that image

of the church if I dwell on it I lose

sleep I I can't sleep I get so excited

about it and so in that case the the

very thing that drove me crazy is the

mirror image of the vision and so I came

into my parish with this sense of vision

and I and I asked over and over again

this is where we come to communicating

vision and communicating visions about

winning people and this is often where

where the thing breaks up because a

priest can come into a parish with great

vision and he jumps from what's in his

heart to implementing change well the

people don't know what the heck you're

doing it the priest is like we're gone

here the people like what are you

talking about we didn't even know we

were supposed to go anywhere and where

is here because you haven't told us and

in communicating vision is the next

essential element it's about weeding

people there's a number of ways to do it

that the primary way a priest can

communicate vision is is preaching the

Sunday homily this is very very key it

st. Benedict parish I preached a

visioning homily every three weeks and

at our parish one person preaches all

weekends we have four weekend masses I

know that's a challenge for some pastors

depends on based on your structure but

if you're structured in a way that

you're not able as a pastor because only

the pastor can speak Division can can

speak to everyone on week one weekend I

really really encourage you to look at

your math schedule some parishes have a

math schedule that can't be done and

there's no way it can be it can be

changed because of the physical layout

yeah but 80% of parishes my experience

that have a all these masses they don't

need all these masses it's not they

could very easily change and have a

parish where the pastor could could

could speak to the whole parish because

that is if you want to speak to your

people and say guess what folks we're

going to go and this is where we're

going you've got to speak to people

because if you just implement change the

thing will fall apart and will break

apart so

so every three weeks you give every

third week of a visioning homily yes

give an example what do you what do you

say what do you do it's essentially

about the main thing repeating again the

as I said the main thing is to keep the

main thing the main thing is what is the

main thing it's reminding the church

about its purpose about why we're doing

the things we're doing why we're perhaps

making this particular change or that

particular change

I remember one weekend a couple years

ago I did a visioning homily on on youth

ministry we went to hire a youth

minister and and in many ways the way to

a key visioning homily to motivate

people to desire change is is to just

like I say scratch the itch scratch the

itch of the people saying people are you

are you happy that many of your children

and grandchildren don't go to do is this

something you're content with yeah do

you want to do something about what you

think is this is it of course people

aren't happy about this scratch the itch

you help people to get to the point

where they're like yes we want to go

where you're talking about I did the

same when we into introduced mid-sized

groups in our parish so right now we

have about 15 18 percent of our adult

population in mid-size groups we have

you live in midsize groups of twenty to

thirty people that meet every two weeks

in homes how many is a midsize group 20

to 30 percent okay yeah I'm sorry and so

these are these are communities where

people are cared for and loved and see

in my parish we have 16 1700 people on a

weekend and I said to people what is the

what is the meaning of Christian

community I said the traditional model

of pastoral care was called father well

guess what I'm not going to show up at

your door unless there's a great tragedy

in your life is that the level of care

that we want to have in our parish are

you satisfied with that level of care

and compassion of course people think

that's terrible says well we've got to

do something about it we want to be a

community where people are known and

loved and cared for and the clergy

centric model can never accomplish that

we need to care for one another we need

to break our large parish into small and

to give people a vision and a taste of

what it can mean so they're like yeah

you know when you say clergy centric is

that relate to the the clericalism stuff

that you touch on in the book is that

related I think that as Eric ilysm is a

huge huge issue in our in our church

that we've got to overcome define that

for us for listeners and then I define

clericalism as the appropriation by the

clerical

asked and by clerical chaos I include

religious and even laypeople because

some late pastoral workers have adopted

a clerical mindset it's the

appropriation of the clerical caste of

what is proper to the baptized so

basically being a missionary disciple

you can't do that I don't expect that if

you let me do it for you this is my job

yeah it's my job I'm I'm the

professional Christian you just said I

asked that of you because you have all

these other responsibilities in your

life and it's a Skype call father what

is the primary desire of a father

disease children grow and become mature

and and in st. Paul says for this I

labor to present you all complete mature

in Christ this this is one of the

primary goals of pastoral care the care

of the Shepherd to feed the Sheep why do

you feed sheep same reason as you feed

your kids so that they grow up to be big

and strong we want our people to grow to

maturity

that's discipleship and and you know

clericalism is basically say it's a

symbiotic relationship it's like the the

layperson says you do it for me you be

my spiritual surrogate you be that holy

person up in the pedestal because that

helps me to convince myself that I could

never be that so you'd do it for me and

I'm gonna leave you in isolation and God

help you if you if you fall from this

pedestal and it's mute it's mutual Pope

Francis calls it a mutually sinful

condition and and and it feeds it feeds

that the lack of maturity within within

the laity and it's not that we're we're

intolerant of immaturity any family who

has children you expect him maturity and

children yeah but any parent knows that

the child eventually becomes mature

that's the whole point of parenting is

but the church will always have immature

members because we're always called to

be to be life-giving to have

babies if if if our parish ever becomes

a hundred percent committed believers

guess what you stopped having spiritual

babies about ten years ago you're

sterile and good for you that you're all

you're all mature but so a parish always

says that have immature believers but

they're in a process of maturation we

what we should not be tolerant of is you

know if you came home and found your 28

year old son in his right

mind sitting on the couch and diaper

sucking his thumb you would be a little

concerned I think you know you would

expect that from your two-year-old but

not of your 28 year old but yet in the

church we seem to tolerate this it's

almost like it's cute if parishioners

who don't know how to pray they don't

have a person relationship of Jesus they

know nothing about the Scriptures okay

maybe before the invention of the

printing press we had in it we had an

excuse maybe before universal literacy

we had an excuse but guess what it's not

the sixteenth century anymore it's not

the 19th century and anymore really

we've got to help people to grow and I

think clericalism it has a huge role to

play in that so we've got to in terms of

communicating vision yeah the homily is

key I can't underestimate that enough

that you've got to take control of your

message on a weekend because that's your

single biggest tool to say this is where

we're going but then you've got to

identify your key stakeholders in a

sense you know your your staff your key

volunteers your ministry leaders it

could be the person who runs a prayer

ministry heck it could just be mrs.

Smith who who just has great influence

over others and you can't just be going

to the people who you like and who agree

with you you've got to sit down and not

just say here's where I sense God

calling us to go it's to paint the dream

with that person and say to that person

you know I know that you might not agree

with everything I stand I stand for a

bit I know that you're an influential

person you're a key person this

community would you help would you help

come alongside and help us make this

happen so we can own it together and and

you've got to win your key people

because if you don't win your key people

when you begin to implement the change

that's where division because a vision

is where you're going if you have two

visions you have D vision and that's the

importance of vision and communicating

vision that's a great lead-in father for

our next show on leadership forming a

leadership team friends session 3 is all

about that that's a key building block

from being able to become a missionary

parish