FLAT VS. CONICAL Burrs Discussion with coffee grinder company Kafatek!
Summary
TLDRIn this video, the hosts discuss the nuances of flat and conical burr grinders for coffee, challenging the traditional belief that flat burrs are best for light roasts and pour-over, while conicals are suited for dark roasts and espresso. They explore how modern grinder designs blur these lines, offering clarity and extraction efficiency across both types. The conversation delves into the technical aspects of grinder design, like surface area, particle size distribution, and the impact of grind speed and alignment on coffee flavor. The hosts conclude that while there are still differences, the gap between flat and conical grinders has narrowed, and the choice often comes down to personal preference, workflow, and the precision of the grinder.
Takeaways
- 😀 The debate between flat and conical bur grinders has evolved, with modern designs capable of handling both light and dark roasts effectively.
- 🔍 Flat bur grinders are often recommended for light roast coffees and pour-over methods due to their clarity and extraction capabilities.
- 🌟 Conical bur grinders are traditionally associated with dark roasts and espresso, offering a more blended flavor profile with less clarity.
- 🛠️ Surface area and grind size are critical factors in grinder performance, with conical burs potentially producing more fines due to the coffee's rolling action.
- ⏱️ The speed of coffee grinding and the time coffee spends in the bur affect the particle size distribution, which differs between flat and conical designs.
- 🛠️ Design intricacies such as the number of teeth and their aggressiveness influence the grinding speed and, consequently, the flavor extraction.
- 💰 Flat bur grinders tend to be more expensive due to the complexity of their design and manufacturing process.
- 🤔 The choice between flat and conical bur grinders may come down to personal preference and workflow, rather than a significant difference in coffee quality.
- 🔄 The precision of the grinder is paramount, with alignment being particularly important for flat burs to ensure consistent grind size.
- 🌿 The quality of coffee and water used is ultimately more critical to the final taste than the type of grinder, emphasizing the importance of using high-quality ingredients.
Q & A
What is the main difference between flat and conical burrs in coffee grinders?
-Flat burrs consist of two flat cutting discs, while conical burrs have a conical shape with an outer burr and the coffee flows from top to bottom. The conical burr can either spin or have a stationary cone with a spinning outer burr.
What is the traditional recommendation regarding flat and conical burrs for different types of coffee roasts?
-Traditionally, flat burrs were recommended for light roast coffee and pour-over brewing, while conical burrs were suggested for dark roast and espresso due to their ability to handle the oils and tars better.
How has the perception of flat and conical burrs changed in recent times?
-The perception has evolved as modern burr designs have emerged that can perform well with both light and dark roasts. The distinction between what flat and conical burrs are 'intended' to do has become less clear, as both types can now achieve excellent results across a range of roasts.
What are the general flavor profiles associated with flat and conical burrs?
-Flat burrs are often associated with clarity and sharp, distinct flavor peaks, while conical burrs tend to produce a more blended and smoother flavor profile.
How does the surface area of burrs affect the grinding process?
-The surface area of burrs influences the speed of grinding and the particle size distribution. Larger burrs, like conical ones, can lead to more fines due to the coffee rolling around more before exiting.
Why are conical burrs considered easier to use in coffee grinders?
-Conical burrs are easier to use because they generally require less preparation work for the coffee puck. They allow for skipping the distribution step, making it simpler to achieve a good tamp and extraction.
What challenges did the designer face when creating flat and conical burrs?
-Designing flat burrs was more challenging due to the need for precise alignment and parallelism between the burrs to control grind size. Conical burrs, on the other hand, focus more on concentric alignment, which is less critical for performance.
Why might conical burrs produce more static in ground coffee?
-Conical burrs may produce more static due to the rubbing action of the coffee as it goes through the burr. The coffee spends more time in the burr, which can lead to increased static buildup compared to flat burrs.
How important is the precision of a grinder when using flat or conical burrs?
-The precision of the grinder is crucial as it affects the grind size and consistency. For flat burrs, the alignment and parallelism are critical, while for conical burrs, concentric alignment is more important.
What is the impact of grinder design on the cost of flat versus conical burrs?
-Flat burrs generally cost more to produce due to the additional steps required for their manufacturing, which is why flat burr grinders tend to be more expensive than conical ones.
What factors should one consider when choosing between a flat and conical burr grinder today?
-Today, the choice between flat and conical burrs is less about roast type and more about personal preference, workflow, and the specific characteristics of the grinder, such as precision and ease of use.
Outlines
😀 Introduction to Flat vs. Conical Burr Grinders
The video script begins with a discussion on the differences between flat and conical burr grinders in the context of coffee preparation. The speaker introduces the topic by addressing the common question of whether to purchase a flat or conical burr grinder. The script mentions that while traditionally, flat burrs were recommended for light roasts and pourovers, and conical burrs for dark roasts and espresso, modern burr designs have blurred these distinctions. The conversation aims to explore the broader differences and specific design elements of each type of grinder, with an emphasis on their impact on coffee flavor and extraction.
🔍 Detailed Comparison of Flat and Conical Burrs
In this paragraph, the script delves deeper into the technical aspects of flat and conical burrs. It discusses the physical differences in burr design, such as the flat cutting discs of flat burrs versus the conical shape of conical burrs. The conversation touches on the impact of burr design on coffee flow and extraction, with a focus on how the coffee grinds interact with the burr surfaces. The script also addresses the idea that modern burr designs have made it possible for both flat and conical burrs to perform well with different roasts, challenging traditional recommendations. Additionally, the discussion includes the importance of surface area, grind size, and the coffee's time spent within the burr, which affects the particle size distribution and, consequently, the flavor profile of the coffee.
🛠️ Design Challenges and Practical Considerations
The script continues with a focus on the design challenges faced when creating flat and conical burrs. It highlights that flat burrs are generally more difficult to design due to the need for precise alignment and parallelism, which is crucial for consistent grind sizes. In contrast, conical burrs are easier to use and require less stringent alignment, making them more user-friendly. The discussion also covers the practical aspects of grinder use, such as the ease of preparing a coffee puck with conical burrs versus the potential need for additional steps with flat burrs. The conversation suggests that while there are still differences in the performance of flat and conical burrs, these differences may be less significant in modern high-end grinders, and personal preference plays a significant role in grinder choice.
💬 Final Thoughts on Burr Grinder Selection
The final paragraph wraps up the discussion by emphasizing the importance of precision in grinders, regardless of burr type. It points out that the precision of the grinder, rather than the burr type alone, is critical for achieving the desired grind size and consistency. The script suggests that the choice between flat and conical burrs may come down to personal preference, workflow, and specific brewing goals. It also acknowledges that while there are measurable differences in grind profiles and extraction yields between flat and conical burrs, these differences may not be as pronounced or as important as once thought. The conversation concludes with the idea that with high-quality grinders, whether flat or conical, it is possible to make great coffee, and the ultimate factors for a good cup of coffee are the quality of the coffee beans and water used.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Flat Burr Grinder
💡Conical Burr Grinder
💡Light Roast
💡Dark Roast
💡Particle Size Distribution
💡Extraction Yield
💡Surface Area
💡Precision
💡Workflow
💡Tolerances
Highlights
Discussion on choosing between flat and conical bur grinders.
Traditional advice on flat burs for light roast and pourover, conical for dark roast and espresso.
Modern grinder designs can perform tasks traditionally associated with the opposite bur type.
Flat burs provide clarity and great extractions, while conicals offer more blended flavors.
Conical burs are easier to use for puck preparation, often requiring less work.
Surface area and particle size distribution are key factors in bur design.
Conical burs can produce more fines due to the coffee's rolling action.
Designing flat burs is more challenging due to the need for precision and alignment.
Conical burs have a larger sweet spot and are generally easier to use.
The debate between flat and conical is less significant with modern grinders.
Workflow is a significant differentiator between flat and conical burs.
Flat burs tend to generate more static due to the coffee's rubbing action.
High-end grinders show differences in grind profile, but the flavor gap has narrowed.
Extraction yields can be higher with flat burs, but it doesn't always equate to better taste.
The precision of the grinder is crucial, especially for flat burs where alignment is key.
Conical burs focus on concentric alignment, which is less critical than flat bur alignment.
The choice between flat and conical burs often comes down to personal preference and workflow.
Good water and coffee are more critical to the final taste than the type of bur.
Transcripts
okay we are at cfch and let's kind of
talk a little bit about flat and conical
flats and conical everybody always ask
question uh do I buy the flat bur
grinder do I buy the conle bur grinder
and this is more of like a broader level
video where we're talking about these
from from like a high level and we we'll
kind of have Dennis go you know nerd out
and talk about you know very specific
things with design and then we can also
talk about you know if you were looking
at picking up a monolith MH you why
should you get the flat and why should
the conle you have different uh Grinders
but otherwise let's kind of start with
the the broader overview of flat versus
conical obviously first of all these
Burrs look very different very different
so with a flat bur you
have flat cutting flat cutting two discs
that are flat and then with a cicle you
have the cone yes and then you have the
outer bur and the coffee pretty much
flows from top to bottom you usually the
cone will spin but there are designs
where the outer bu spins instead and The
Cone is stationary okay and that's
pretty much you know on the surface of
it that's it and I know for many many
years a lot of people always talk about
if you're doing light roast and you're
doing pourover get flats and if you're
doing dark roast and espresso get
conical but I think nowadays you we have
found many different bird designs that
can kind of do uh the Opposites right
you have Conor I that can do light roast
really well you have flats that can do
dark roast really well so it's kind of
like now it's like okay well what are
what are the actual differences if if
you can design burst to do what things
are you know do what it's not intended
to do right for example so I guess
what's kind of your take on that like
just why would somebody pick a flat
versus a a conle yeah for me like I
often people ask me that and you like
the first thing I say if you are into
the light roasted coffee as espresso get
get the max get the flat burs and reason
being the clarity you're going to have a
lot of clarity you know you're going to
have a great extractions because these
you know the sugar canes they extract
really really well the conicals
especially the shuri cons they extract
very well too but the flavors I feel are
more Blended so you know there are Peaks
you know the flavors are maybe on the
Peaks I would say sharper tasting as
opposed to like a smoother flavors on a
flats and then the
chicles do not be as clear as the flat
yeah so those are like the you know the
general like General differences now
let's talk a let's kind of get a little
more specific right because basically
the first kind of thing I think we can
talk about is surface area or spur size
differences between conical cuz for
example you can have uh well you can
have big conical today so like 71 mm
these are 98 Flats here how are how is
surface area measured or like how's size
like dictated with some of these birs
nowadays yeah it's got like you know the
the one of the things that it does is a
speed like how fast they grind and then
you know but that's controlled by many
factors you know like how many teeth
does the bird has and like the more
teeth the faster it's going to grind
then how aggressive these teeth are so I
think the the time the coffee spends in
this conical bur largely affects that
particle size distribution of the conle
bur and I think because the coffee kind
of rolls over all around before exiting
so the more it goes around and around
before getting out of the bur the more
fines you will get and it's you know
that's different from the flat
bur because the coffee usually will go
faster through these this is where bir
design all this it's like incredibly
convoluted right like how fast does the
coffee go in how fast does it spend in
here and then how fast does it go out of
here and how long does it take to go out
of there and then the surface finish oh
and then yeah and then like
how smooth is the surface so there are a
lot of very specific things to these
with something like chicles what making
small versus large chicles what are the
differences there like why do you end up
with 71 mm versus say 68 or 48 or 38
yeah it's a same like you know kind of
thinking that we had in coffee Community
years ago probably from the Titan
project like a larger bir better taste
so that's you know I was like okay I'm
making a large bir you know like a
larger bir and I think it does taste a
better you know it's like a larger sweet
spot as you say taste it's better easier
to use like the conical bird grinders
are easier to use big yes in the terms
of the puck preparation like you don't
have to do like you can usually skip the
wdt even with the conical B you can just
shake it and Tamp it and it's good to go
yeah yeah you know it's much easier to
use while the flat purs are a little bit
harder and I think that comes down to
that fines like how much how many fines
is is in the you know ground coffee or
when you were designing the shur cones
and shur kins was it harder to design
for conle or was it or flat like what
are flat was much harder flat okay why
is that I it's hard to say I don't know
like the these ones these ones kind of
went easier than this like you know but
that maybe because I did these first you
know so you went through your hundreds
of iterations of and then I was like
okay now I know what I want and I know
how to get this there you know so I know
okay I need these surfaces smooth I want
to polish that you know I want to have
my curved surfaces here M you know stuff
like that so that might be the reason
that went faster I see but like the
conal the shuri cons even have much more
clarity than the traditional con right
yeah and and that's what's the
interesting thing is like you know we
mentioning this at the beginning of the
video this is my example of you can take
this thing that is not actually you know
oh they're not good for light roast but
then you take something like CH con and
you're like oh wait actually these work
really well for light roast you you can
pull fast flowing turbos and you can do
pour over with these and it'll taste
great but it's just kind of interesting
it's like it's it's like does it matter
and nowadays right is like do does the
flat versus conical debate even matter
nowadays right like my my take is it's
less less so of a thing now yeah the Gap
narrowed yeah the Gap is very narrow
like at the end of the day you can make
really great coffee out of both at least
at this level right when we're talking
like these types of birds right really
the biggest difference today still is
something like workflow is that like so
why do the these generate so much more
static it or like these seem Flats seem
to generate so much more static much
more okay I think so I think so too it's
it's just the how coffee
rubs like you know the rubbing action of
the coffee as it goes out you know
creates more static it just creates more
static and I think in the conic because
you get and like we know like if you
have that coffee that a statically if
you just steer it you are helping
dissipate that so in a vave as the
coffee spends time in this conic bur
it's getting getting stirred it's
getting stirred inside too I mean it
happens here too but not to the same
extent extent as in the conic culture I
think see yeah so it's it's just like
you know now
nowadays I'm like I don't know anymore I
can make great coffee on Flats I can
make great coffee on chicles I do think
maybe something it might just be Placebo
now for me I'm like oh if I'm brewing
light roast I need to use the flat
otherwise it won tast as good that's
what I do that's what I do like if I'm
using but on the on the flip note if I'm
using dark roast I want to use con I
mean you can observe this too if you did
psds and if you look at the coffee even
with something like very very high-end
coffee grinders like Mon conle and flat
Max you get them side by side and you
grind you will see differences
profile difference but is it as big as
you know people make it out to be
nowadays I don't think as much yeah no I
think like you know if you were not
trying them side by side like I don't
know like could you be able to pick the
difference like if you wear it like at
your friend's house and you are trying
the conical and then you come back cor
trying to Flat Max yeah you're like I
don't know ah I don't know if you're
going to be able to tell the difference
yeah cuz cuz like hard I I I agree too
cuz like now nowadays at least even the
in the from a coffee perspective like
the coffees have gotten so much better
people are using really good water you
it's like you're going to get great
results from either of them even though
there are physical differences with how
your coffee is being ground and there is
a you know visual difference and
measurable difference between fines and
all that and even an extraction like
that's that's another interesting thing
like we can easily get like 26 27
extraction yields out of the 98s but
that's much harder to get with a conical
Bird yeah and then even if you can
extract this side it doesn't necessarily
taste good no yeah the extraction it
doesn't matter we're trying to clarify
things but we may have made them more
convoluted for you probably but but
that's the thing is like you know when
you're trying to buy these Grinders in
today's landscape I think you know from
as long as they're good right it's it's
hard to go wrong right um I think really
what you should evaluate is like the the
cost right like I think I mean my
understanding is it more expensive to
produce Flats than conical or yes more
steps more steps yeah so like you that's
why you know you generally see the the
flat birg Grinders cost more money cuz
there's more work
and to to do that and then from there
it's like you know if if you if money is
of no constraint then you know pick
which one you like the most yeah right
but that's my take too is like nowadays
today the Gap is so close between these
two unless you are going for very very
specific things like pushing for the
maximum extraction or if you are into
dark cross yeah then I would say get a
conle there's no reason to get a Max
yeah well because you know on the conle
more more fines chocolatier shots right
but you probably don't want that maximum
Clarity 27% extraction yield dark no no
it doesn't taste good yeah you know I
just want to talk about this right like
conal versus flat but from somebody who
actually makes these all day right um is
there anything else you want to add well
the most important thing like on any of
these burds then pretty much comes down
to the Precision of the grinder and the
that is important because like on the
flat burs to control the the grind size
it's pretty much how these birds come
close together that controls the size
and when you turn the funnel you are
actually spreading them further apart or
bring them closer together so then
that's where the Precision comes in like
if they are not coming
together perfectly parallel then you're
going to have a coarse grind coming out
of here and fine grind coming out of
here yeah not a good idea yeah so so
that's the other thing too is is with
the flats you know alignment is
something that matters it's got to be
parallel yeah and but on the conle
that's not that important on the conle
what's important is how concentric these
two go together I see so like if they
are a little bit tough like this it's
not going to be the end of the world
like not on the Flats on the flats 50
microns is noticeable you know on the
conical I don't think 50 microns will do
much but it will if it's a concentric
alignment so like here you are bringing
them closer together like this but if
you are off like this then you suddenly
have yeah you have different size that's
going through but but yeah that's that's
the thing is like you know a lot of what
we are discussing here is not
necessarily exactly things related to
flavor profile right it's more like well
if you own one of these alignment
matters the workflow is going to be
different but flavor profiles nowadays
they're getting pretty close together
and and in addition from that right like
the only thing that I think you should
be concerned about is and this is more
so for flaters is like you know you can
buy these flats and a lot of these
flaters you can stick them in all these
different Grinders but you have to then
look at you know the tolerances right
like the bur carrier how's the alignment
right because this is where you need to
then worry more about okay well maybe
you're not going to get the best
performance out of the Burr because of
the actual housing right and then that's
like a whole entire other conversation
but that's the that's the thing with
with these Flats is just be aware of
that right yeah but otherwise yeah like
I just wanted to have this quick little
discussion on Flats versus conical with
Dennis you know it's just cool to be
able to have a discussion on these
differences nowadays because I don't
really think they're that big anymore
yeah it's not like it's not like in the
you know previous versions like in the
old conical birs the difference was
massive you know I think these days like
that narrowed down a lot and I think the
biggest difference is actually on the
edge and especially with the dark rosts
I think is where you're going to see the
biggest difference I see I don't think
not that much in a in a light roast but
it's like if you're really pushing it
right you want like the maximum
extractions that's where you'll notice
it but also it's like you know that is
of what we can measure right it's still
going to come down to how you taste and
what you're into right you're going to
be able to taste those different like
you know I I do genuinely think if you
have a good flat and a good conle side
by side you should be able to taste
those differences but most people
probably just running one grinder if you
only one run one grinder you're probably
going to be good either ways if you're
getting a higher end flat or a higher
end conical in today's landscape right
but just wanted to provide a different
perspective there and and it's a journey
oh yeah it's fun it's a journey that's
where the fun is you know that's how I
started too you know it's like you go
through the Journey of enjoying coffee
and discovering things and it's like
it's fun yeah so it's that's that's
thing you know getting into the Hobby
and playing around with the different
Grinders and and different burs nowaday
it's like it's pretty hard to go wrong
if you pick a good manufacturer and good
grinder you pick a good flat conle
they're going to make you great coffee
it's really going to come down to what
coffee you're using and also the water
that's just still the end of the day
right the grinder is a tool for that but
you got to use good water and coffee
that is reality so yeah otherwise that
just a quick take on you know Flats
versus conical some slight difference
you know high level and some of the
closer things hope that was helpful
Maybe made things more confusing but
yeah thank you so much for watching see
you guys later
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