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Summary
TLDRThe podcast episode discusses the recent developments in the crypto industry, with a focus on on-chain data, the growth of Bitcoin ETFs, and the emergence of new projects on the Bitcoin blockchain. The hosts share their experiences from the Denver conference, highlighting the significant interest in the Blast chain launch and its impact on the market. They also delve into the rise of Bitcoin layer two solutions, the dynamics of institutional flows versus meme coins, and the potential future of various crypto projects.
Takeaways
- 🎙️ The podcast episode features a discussion on the crypto industry, onchain data, and recent events in the space.
- 🏛️ The guests disclose that the views expressed in the podcast are independent and do not represent their employers.
- 🤝 The community power of the data house was highlighted during the meetup in Denver.
- 📈 The launch of the blast chain and its impact on the crypto industry was a significant topic of conversation.
- 💡 The blast chain managed to gather an impressive 2.2 billion in TVL despite being a 'fancy multisig'.
- 🔄 The shift of various protocols and projects to the blast ecosystem was noted, with some teams forking themselves or spinning up new entities.
- 🚀 The developer incentive program on blast was discussed, which rewards developers for creating useful contracts without heavy BD processes.
- 📊 The growth of Bitcoin layer two solutions and their TVL was analyzed, with a focus on Merlin and B squ.
- 🌐 The interest in Bitcoin layer twos is primarily based in Asia, with the majority of VCs involved being Asian.
- 🦅 TheOrdinals on the Bitcoin blockchain and their impact on NFT trading volumes were highlighted, showing a significant increase in activity.
- 📈 The Bitcoin ETFs have seen substantial flows, with Fidelity and Black Rock ETFs recently hitting record numbers.
Q & A
What is the main topic of discussion in the podcast?
-The main topic of discussion in the podcast is onchain data, charts, crimes, and metrics that move the crypto industry.
Who are the hosts of the podcast?
-The hosts of the podcast are Denning, Corgi, Dobby, and Boxer.
Where did the hosts meet recently?
-The hosts recently met in Denver.
What was a highlight of the week for Dobby in Denver?
-A highlight for Dobby was meeting a bunch of people he works with, either closely or not, and experiencing the data community connection outside of their companies.
What was a low point during the Denver trip for the hosts?
-A low point was the difficulty in booking the podcast recording, which resulted in most of the week being empty and not as happy.
What is the significance of the Blast launch in the conversation?
-The Blast launch is significant as it represents a major event in the crypto industry, with the company announcing its chain in November 2023 and attracting a large amount of attention and investment.
What did the hosts discuss regarding the Ethereum layer 2 solutions?
-The hosts discussed the growth and development of Ethereum layer 2 solutions, such as Optimism and Blast, and their impact on the crypto industry.
What was the main issue with the Denver venue according to the hosts?
-The main issue with the Denver venue was the cold and dry weather, which made it uncomfortable for the hosts and caused physical discomfort.
What was the hosts' general consensus on attending conferences?
-The hosts agreed that while attending conferences can be time-intensive and temporarily affect work productivity, it is useful in the long term for networking and gaining industry insights.
What was the notable event at the Denver conference involving block builders?
-A notable event was a heated panel with block builders on stage, where the moderator asked about the launch of a relay and the presence of a significant portion of Ethereum's block builders.
Outlines
🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Denver Experience
The paragraph introduces the podcast, highlighting the hosts and their roles in the crypto industry. It discusses their recent gathering in Denver, sharing personal experiences and interactions within the data community. The conversation ranges from the enjoyment of meeting colleagues and attending side events to the challenges of recording the podcast and dealing with the cold, dry climate of Denver.
🚀 Blast Launch and Market Response
This section delves into the launch of Blast, its development as an L2 solution, and the community's response. It covers the initial skepticism around Blast's TVL growth, the migration of capital to different smart contracts, and the eventual transition to an actual chain. The summary also touches on the variety of protocols emerging on Blast and the potential for scams, weighing the opportunities for developers and the strategic decisions behind farming airdrops.
🌐 Bitcoin Layer 2 Developments and Market Trends
The paragraph discusses the growth of Bitcoin Layer 2 solutions, particularly Merlin and B squ, and their rapid TVL increase. It explores the reasons behind this growth, including the abundance of dormant capital in Bitcoin and the interest from Asian-based VCs. The conversation also highlights the potential for Bitcoin L2s to attract users due to Bitcoin's reputation and the possibility of deploying EVM-compatible chains on Bitcoin.
📈 Bitcoin ETFs and Their Impact on the Market
This section provides an in-depth analysis of Bitcoin ETFs, their flows, and their impact on the market. It discusses the tracking of on-chain flows, the percentage of Bitcoin supply moving into ETFs, and the potential future growth. The summary emphasizes the manual effort required to track these flows and the goal of promoting transparency in the blockchain space.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡onchain data
💡Layer 2 solutions
💡yield farming
💡developer airdrop
💡bridged total value locked (TVL)
💡DeFi (Decentralized Finance)
💡Bitcoin ETFs
💡ordinals
💡zk-rollups
💡memcoin
Highlights
The podcast discusses onchain data, charts, crimes, and metrics in the crypto industry.
The podcast guests include Denning Onchan, Corgi at flbs, and Dune's resident data house.
The podcast guests share their experiences from the recent Denver gathering.
The launch of the blast chain and its impact on the crypto industry is a major topic.
Blast gathered 2.2 billion in TVL with its initial chain, which was just a smart contract multi.
Blast chose the optimism stack but did not follow the super chain standard.
After 12 days since launch, blast has a bridged total value locked of 2.66 billion.
Many teams are forking themselves or spinning up new entities to operate under new names in the blast ecosystem.
The blast protocol has a developer incentive program that rewards smart contracts based on usage.
Bitcoin Layer 2 solutions are gaining attention and have significant TVL.
Ordinals, which allow inscriptions on the Bitcoin blockchain, have led to a surge in NFT activity on Bitcoin.
Bitcoin Layer 2s like Merlin and B squ have attracted significant VC interest, much of which is based in Asia.
Bitcoin ETFs have seen significant flows, with 1% of Bitcoin supply moving into ETFs.
The Bitcoin ETF has the potential to吸收 up to 8.2% of Bitcoin supply annually based on recent flows.
The podcast also touches on the Solana ecosystem and its recent meme coin activity.
There is a notable split in the market with institutional flows going into Bitcoin ETFs and retail flows going into meme coins on Solana.
The guests discuss the impact of Bitcoin Layer 2s and ETFs on the perception of Bitcoin as a secure and established technology.
The podcast highlights the importance of transparency in the blockchain space and the potential for on-chain analysis to reveal significant holders of Bitcoin.
The discussion includes the potential for cross-chain interactions and the bridging of assets between EVM chains.
The podcast concludes with a reflection on the overall state of the crypto industry and the diverse opportunities it presents.
Transcripts
hello everyone uh welcome to the index
podcast where the three of us come
together every couple weeks to discuss
onchain data charts crimes and metrics
that move to crypto industry um with me
I have Denning onchan Corgi at flbs
Hobby resident data House of at
dragonfly and myself that is boxer uh
Community power horse at Yun um before
we properly start this episode um we
need to disclose that nothing we say
here is Legal Financial invest
text or even life advice um the re the
views expressed in the podcast are not
representative of our employers and uh
we are acting independently of our
respective professional roles so with
that um last week we all hung out at
Denver so maybe um Dobby how how was
your week in Denver week was awesome I
mean it's really cool to meet like a
bunch of people that you work with close
or not uh you know like the the whole
data Community thing is like we're all
connected apart from aside from our
companies and it's kind of cool to meet
all those people you guys as well then
we also had like you know low points
where we try to to to book like the
podcast recording uh thing and we
couldn't and then so it was empty most
of the week so that was uh not as happy
at a moment but you know overall very
cool uh very cool week yeah um I liked
it I I had like a more packed agenda of
like meeting the teams and I didn't even
go to the main venue until the last very
day I was like at the Meb side events um
the one organized by Titan was pretty
cool there was like a heated panel of
all the block Builders uh on the stage
and like you know the moderator was
asking unhinged question about are you
guys GNA launch a relay Etc and there
was like a photo taken by someone who
was like oh that's 90% of blocks of
ethereum on the stage which is like by
three top Builders so um it was quite
interesting event um I learned about
execution tickets by Mike neuter like
the new epbs Direction Etc um yeah and
also great to see y'all in the um venue
briefly um Dune happy hour was cool like
a lot of the data people around there
low lights was definitely like Denver
sucks I I'm just a hater Denver it's so
cold and it's also like so dry my nose
was bleeding every day yeah and it's
dusty kind of so yeah I I don't know who
like decided that Denver was the place
we're all going to meet at in February
it's like it's really really a strange I
I think it just developed like this
historically but also like my my lips
and my nose they were they were
absolutely [ __ ] I've never had it this
bad in my life like it was insane um I I
think it used to be a small Meetup with
like locals there and that's why like
yeah go into this yeah yeah quite yeah
crazy how how these things go um I also
like pretty good week um we we had a
dune company onite at the same time so I
also like met a bunch of Dune people we
kind of aligned on product directions
and stuff um but yeah in general it's
like really really cool to always meet
Wizards wherever you go it's like
especially like as a dune employee you
can just like walk around a conference
with a dune shirt and somebody will oh
my God you work at Dune this is amazing
I love the product you're just like yeah
we're trying our best it's always like
quite a quite a humbling experience um
so funny like the very last day I went
to the main venue to meet Dobby and he
said he was like working on his Dune
dashboards and then you and another Dune
guy walked over like oh you're a doom
user and like oh it's BBY yeah yeah
Berard and me we were just hanging out
ber like spotted from the distance like
hey this guy's working on dude like
turns out to be Dy which was pretty
hilarious just to Total coincidence um
but yeah overall like really cool to to
also meet kind of the North American
wizard like before I like I mostly meet
like the European and and I guess the
Asian people because they they have like
an easier time coming to Europe um but
now I actually met met quite a few
people who are based in North America as
well um so yeah just real good times um
the conference itself is like Giant and
it was really interesting like for me
it's always like really I have like a
good time just asking questions and I
going deeper and going deeper and it's
like usually it's it's not really
sociable socially acceptable to just
like ask ask like a hundred questions
but like if the people are in the booth
they need to answer my question so like
I have a really good time just like
pressuring them and like asking asking
not not the nicest question sometimes um
but yeah really really engaging
conversations and you can really kind of
load your load your brain with a lot of
content with with a lot of understanding
and kind of The Vibes of the industry so
I think like while it is very time
intensive and like your usual like work
productivity really suffers in such a
week um I I think long term it's always
useful to kind of go to these
conferences like once in a while so yeah
with with with our weeks in Denver
covered one big topic that I that
repeatedly came up in in conversations
there is um the blast launch and just to
kind of recap um blast launched their
their chain or like their they announced
their chain in November uh 2023 so
that's four month ago um and their
initial chain uh in quotation marks uh
was just a fancy multi so uh they didn't
really have a chain they were just like
hey deposit your money with us um you're
going to get the native yields which is
the whole kind of uh trademark or the
the whole uh pitch of blast is um they
are developing an L2 which has the
native yield for uh D or usdb what how
however they call that which basically
deposits uh stable coins into the maker
uh Reserve module and then they have
ethereum which uh they deposit into um
the liquid staking module of L Lio and
basically um up until uh March 20 uh
February 28 or 29 um this Capital was
just sitting around there it was not
like an actual chain but rather it was
just sitting in this smart contract
multis um and they had gathered an
insane um 2.2 billion uh in tvl so
that's that's pretty insane um so maybe
let me share my screen real quick let's
do this so 2.2 billion in tvl
and for for those just listening we're
now opening up def Lama um and we're
we're looking at a chart which basically
just show shows the pre-launch farm uh
blast tvl um and surprisingly if we look
at this in US dollar terms and in eth
terms because eth went up 70% during
like during the time from uh from
November when last first launch to uh to
now um and surprisingly if we look at
the US dollar and the e they're not that
different even though eth went up quite
a bit so what that basically tells us is
that continuously during the whole time
this Farm was live people were
depositing funds in there which is quite
surprising to me I I would have not
expected this like I I I only looked at
this data yesterday the first time and
it yeah very very surprising that
there's so many people who are kind of
like not late to the party but like in
in mid December or like like end of
December they were like ah yeah let me
like deposit my eth into blast which is
I I can't really rationalize that
decision um but in the end like I think
a lot of blast TBL was big farming
Capital so maybe it was just this was
the best opportunity for them risk
adjusted to deploy their capital in this
yield opportunity so I I I guess it's
it's not really the retail users who are
driving a lot of this but more like the
big farmer or like the professional
Farmers so yeah um that the that for
that um and then blast finally launched
February 28 I think I wrote this down
somewhere um but 12 days ago um I wrote
down 12 days ago but not the DAT that's
that's pretty stupid but yeah um so
blast finally converted to actually
being being a chain um they chose the
optimism stack um but they didn't choose
to be part in the super chain so yeah
maybe the super chain is if you follow
certain methodologies or certain
standards that the optimism Collective
is kind of enforcing so that all the
that all the chains are kind of
interoperable in case they ever get to
like a level where they can more easily
do interoperability in the future blast
did not choose to follow the super chain
standard because Blast has made too many
changes in their kind of
core like mechanisms just because of the
Native yield and and and all of this ja
um so so yeah um but they're still using
the optimism stack um so in in the end
they kind of benefit from from what
optimism has developed in the source
stack there um and yeah um in the
beginning there there was like a bit of
unclarity there's a bunch of Articles
from blockworks or from uh from from
other news news outlets where there like
ah Blast has lost all all of its tvl but
then what what ended up happening is
just defi Lama is only so Nea Lama had
indexed the the multi contract that was
the bridge or like that is supposedly
the bridge um but it ended up that you
didn't so if you actually funds moved
into a different smart contract so it
looked like a lot of capital left um the
blast bridge but in the end it just
moved somewhere else um and now 12 day
12 Days After launch um we are at 2.66
billion in bridged total value locked um
so I think there's a net outflow of 50K
in ether so I think the The Ether terms
here are more kind of like that's the
better metric to look at because the
market is the market is sending so hard
at the moment so uh at the time the
bridge uh or the prearm finished we were
sitting at 670k ether um in value so
it's not 670k ether but rather The
Stables plus The Ether in the bridge
contract where worth 670k ether and now
we're sitting at 650k worth of ether
even though the e e price has gone up so
nominally they've actually lost 20K in
ether but since the prices are all going
up um the tbll overall has like in in
dollar terms has increased so yeah uh
what does all of this tell us um and and
what is actually happening on blast so
if you if you look at the blast
protocols and I for those of you just
listening we're still on the on the defi
Lama page there's kind of a a lot of new
names here there's a few names which are
kind of noticeable I've I I kind of
remembered basabi from 2021 like this
was like the peak defi yield farming era
I I think I I I lost quite a lot of
money in their pool too so no good
memories from me to Babi um but fair
enough um and a lot of like there's not
a lot of um kind of rutal prot protocols
deployed here so there's no Unis swap
there's no a there's no maker I mean
maker is being used in the background
but maker maker itself hasn't deployed
here um and yeah um just just a lot of
new names and um I overheard some
conversations at e Denver that basically
what what what is happening is that a
lot of teams are they basically Fork
themselves or they just spun up a new
entity um and are now um operating under
a new name in the blast ecosystem so if
you've previously kind of had whatever I
I don't want to put bad names on any
protocol now so I'm just gonna like I
don't know some like Unis swap V2 Fork
on Phantom or polygon or whatever they
just um have a new skin now and now
they're operating on blast as I don't
know P Finance or orbit protocol or
Thruster and I think sometimes the the
associations are publicly known so
they've actually kind of like they've
publicly said hey we're going to do this
and and like this is this is like a
project that the team's also taking on
but I think there's also like quite a
few Protocols of basically like ah we're
a new team and since the old team or
like the team that was operating on I
don't know mes was unon they can just
like Sprout up in a new place and and
this place is now blast and they they
they're like basically rinse and
repeating their like I don't know
they're sioning Grand money on mates and
now they're kind of like farming the
developer air drop on blast um so that
actually is is a good yeah in a in a way
it makes sense where like you're goingon
to as as a Dev if you're if you're
working on a now dead chain and you see
this chain that's just launched with all
this liquidity and you know you have a
chance to be like first mover uh and you
have like there's like 50% of the
upcoming air drop or something going to
protocols so there's there's a good
flywheel for a potential you know
potentially your protocol doing well
there and so I guess it's a you know if
it wasn't doing so well in other chains
or if you just want to expand it there
probably a good rational here but of
course it's a it's a d gen chain maybe
for now and kind of a bet uh on its
future more than anything so yeah yeah I
agre people was saying like they're
going to be so many scams on blast but I
I'm not aware what exactly are you guys
aware of any like projects that's like
scam on I mean why why more or less than
other chain launches may maybe I don't
know but I'm not really looking for scam
so I don't really
know let me a to some scam Farms let's
go there definely some like mcoin mcoin
was like a thing you know there's
several few mcoins that launched and
were announced pre prior to the launch
of the main net so maybe that's where it
comes from where it's like d gen heavy
and therefore if if it attracts the DJ
they'll probably have you know a lot of
scams as a result but yeah I don't know
if there's like much proven to that yeah
I think so so far those legit projects
here so if you're a Unis swap for or if
you're V2 for or something like this
actually I think the game theory
basically plays out in a way that you
are like it's an EV plus action to just
stay stay in the game and actually Farm
the airdrop legally I think if you if
you kind of weigh like committing a
crime versus just getting getting money
from the developer air drop from blast I
I think that turns out to be the better
decision in in a lot of cases um and
that's basically the whole playoff last
year they they've like tried to do like
a good kind of web two inspired GTM
motion the same play that they did with
b um just rinse and repeat or like not
rinse and repeat but basically evolved
that Playboy to be like hey we can
actually like power a whole chain with
this maybe um put a lot of like put a
little bit of innov innovation with uh
the the native yields um on this chain
and now they're basically trying to get
developers um to deploy on this chain
with a developer incentive program and
this developer incentive program is
designed in a way where it's mostly kind
of like not BD heavy and like you don't
need to like Lobby for Grants or
something but rather um the smart
contracts that are deployed on the chain
and that are getting usage are actually
just going to get air drop the points or
gold I think it's like the the internal
name that they're using for this um so
so it is really interesting um where
where a lot of other chains are
basically like they have this like very
heavy DD process and like you need to
submit governance proposals and like do
all of this stuff like basically like
what blast is doing here is like they're
more or less employing this retroactive
program where they're like build
something useful make people use the
contract on our chain and we're actually
going to reward you with with the native
chain tokens without without like having
like heavy BD or like all of this like
belts and wizards that you like Hoops
you need to jump through um so we'll
we'll see how this ends up I I think
this is like like blur like the the
founder Pacman how whatever his real
name is I forgot um he's really keyed
into the things like I I think these are
like he's he's like learned the lessons
that like all of these other chains are
are painfully learning uh slowly and
like we we'll see if this actually has
attracted any any useful Builders or
like any any good Builders um maybe
maybe as a last aspect from from the
data side um even though there's so much
Bridge tvl so bridge tvl is is is not
like value locked on the Chain but
rather just like how many stables and
how much ether is on that chain um their
place eight or nine um so really really
impressive number actually um they
they've surpassed optimism in wait have
they pass optimism wait in terms of in
terms of l2s they're like third I think
if you just look at total brid
rollups yeah yeah optimism I think uh no
optimism optimism has M but but they
basically like they're in the top 10 of
bridged tvl chains so like that's super
impressive for like a chain that's 12
days old basic basically um so we'll
we'll see if actually something use to
cons this what I can say for right now
is that even though there's all of this
tvl and like theoretically there's a lot
of users there's very little Dex
activity or like in general like I don't
think there's that much interesting
stuff happening on this chain so we will
we will see how this actually turns out
um I I think users will kind of keep
grinding for the points and for the
airdrop there's a lot of other
interesting things happening at the
moment so maybe that's like actually
kind of bad for blast in a sense because
it's like it's not really the most
exciting thing and there's not like that
like the casino is not spinning as fast
on blast as of now and like how how do
you get the casino over on blast um so
yeah that's my uh that's my short uh
recap of what's happening on last and
yeah really a big Topic in Denver like
every I don't know like lots of
conversations which you're like ah like
is your project going to deploy there
and like is June going to integrate
blast and like what what is happening
here um so it really has captured a lot
of attention which is like compared to
all the other like I don't know there's
like so many l2s and layer ones who had
like even like Booth uh in in the actual
e Denver and you just walk past them and
be like ah whatever another L2 and Blast
has really like they like we're talking
about it they they've captured the
attention they've they've captured a lot
of uh a lot of Rich Capital um so yeah
we'll we we'll see how this story heads
up yeah I I feel like this chain is
definitely going to be more like yel
heavy or like like speculation heavy
chain and like in East Denver I most
thing I've heard was like it's going to
be a [ __ ] show because all the developer
tools aren't even ready like bunch of
like devs complain to me about like even
the node provider like you can only use
Quick node back then using uh to deploy
on plus but then the node doesn't even
allow you to query per like block range
specified Etc so like it's just really a
pain in the ass to integrate blast and
seems like it was kind of like a sh Show
after the launch but I guess it's live
now this morning I saw they were down
for a few minutes after Duncan upgrade
but they're back now so we'll see how it
goes you conf yeah okay I I you confuse
me with this morning because uh for me
it was like two hours ago which in the
middle of after I always forget but my
the the like it's it's funny because I
think I think they're the First on to
have like native yields and you have um
you have that tried to Pivot into doing
the same thing in December so like blast
at the reward program starting from
November up until like two weeks ago or
something and Mana was like okay we got
to front run them by basically doing the
same program but even more D gen
starting in December and only making it
last a month so we launched prior to
blast um but I think it's it's like they
if you look on like L2 beat you'll see
like M has done them before behind blast
um but I don't know I don't know much
going on on menta which has launched uh
a bit earlier while I like I've heard
more about things launching on blast uh
so I'm just yeah I don't know I don't
know what the reasoning here is maybe
it's just like bless has the bigger
branding and was the first mover and the
First on to do all this uh whereas menta
was more of a
copycat um yeah I'm just curious on how
that plays out in the long term I think
Native yield does make sense for the end
user though on a protocol level it's not
really how it was intended or how it was
designed but like you know it's it's it
makes sense uh to have um to have the
user not being diluted uh to death
through uh you know native yield of
ether and stable coins especially since
Le funds are often just sitting there
anyways speaking of l2s I remember like
a lot of people were talking about
Bitcoin later too as well at East
Denver so I think we going to like walk
us through about some findings and data
there yes so give me one second while I
share my screen first of all first of
all like I don't why Bitcoin layer to um
my general understanding is that people
think now there is capital flowing
through Bitcoin ETF and like people want
to use Bitcoin in a more like easier way
like you could use the wbtc on ethereum
but it's not like they want the capital
to be bridged off from Bitcoin so there
there needs of like using Bitcoin layer
to and they are supposedly all evm
compatible and that's all I understand
all more or less so I first want to roll
it back to like the original state of
like what was the first layer two which
is lightning which isn't a layer two in
in how you would compare it to what you
have on etherum so it's it it only is
for transfers but at much lower fee and
and everything and you can see that that
usage is going is well it hasn't ever
really been uh crazy high in terms of
usage but also it's been going down
lately um so this is this has been the
main known you know uh it's like a
staple of Bitcoin in a way and was a was
a big part of uh of of uh I think it was
launched in
2018 uh so that was a big development
for the chain um then you had others uh
come in and one of them was Stacks which
also launched in I think 2018 and was uh
you can compare it more maybe to polygon
where it's a you know it's a side chain
more than an L2 that uh you'll find on
on uh on on ethereum much like
optimistic rollups or ZK rollups so
technically while it is like connected
to the Bitcoin chain it really can
sustain on its own uh and I think it's
more of a you know it's a it's a States
uh it like track the state rather than
the actual uh every transaction those
are settled offchain so that's why you
are able to have much lower costs um and
this you know this didn't get much
structured until maybe later on where
actual uh inscriptions came around and
you could settle on bitcoin uh and have
actual proofs uh posted on bitcoin
that's where it get through tvl you also
have another one
which um you may have heard of which
isn't either a L2 but Thor chain which
is another one but it's a bit
controversial so the the point of Thor
chain is to bridge native assets across
chains so one of the main ones being eth
to bitcoin uh the problem here that I'm
showing is a tweet that shows that uh a
lot of the a lot of the transfers are
used basically for uh kind of like
scammers moving across chains to
obfuscate uh where the the funds are
headed uh so that's just one thing is
just that you know there is any check
you're not you're not going to get
censored so it's just an easy way for
anyone including of course Bad actors uh
to bridge off of ethereum onto Bitcoin
and just keep shuffling funds until
hopefully you've lost the people you've
lost the white hats trying to track you
I guess or you you know you move first
onto the exchanges before they're able
to to alert them and and say hey like
can you block these funds um so that's
just an unfortunate development but you
know um that's St chain I don't know if
they if they've done much work there or
if they've actually uh iterated on On th
chain in a way to to make it like you
know it's hard to have
permissionless uh chain that also
prevents uh Bad actors but I don't know
maybe there's something like this is
basically the torado like thing repeated
right where it's like are you really
trying to like be permissionless or are
you I don't know do do you want to
prevent North Korea or Russia to to like
use your protocol and that's like it's a
really like hard philosophical debate
and question but like I I I wouldn't I
don't know to toor chain doesn't seem to
give a [ __ ] like I haven't seen any
communication from them being like no
we're like censoring or whatever yeah
it's like they would lose most of their
volume if they can if they prevented
this so it's kind of like you know it's
it's hard to which side do you choose do
you choose Being Greedy or do you choose
being right and uh I guess they chose
the first one uh for now maybe that
changes uh and then you had another
development that uh you've heard about
which are ordinals uh so ordinal are uh
in a way roughly to put nfts on on the
Bitcoin blockchain but really it's
inscription so you are submitting Json
uh packets on Bitcoin to put it simply
and the major difference probably that
the metadata is going to be posted on
the Bitcoin blood chain straight away
rather than being offchain like on other
uh ERC 721s and ERC and what I want to
show here is how actually some of the if
you look in the top F some of the more
prominent nfts overall in terms of
market cap uh although I mean for more
IL liquid tokens market cap isn't
necessarily the best metric but I guess
it's what you know it's the best we have
probably
uh you can see that like node monkeys
here is like second to uh B apes and if
you look throughout the like the top 20
you'll see quite a bunch of Bitcoins in
there uh so it is a prominent chain uh
there's almost you know there's like
probably fewer Solana ones than Bitcoin
ones for example which I would have you
know I would have guessed the opposite
but I think this comes from uh Solana we
have more public access to like sonana
data whereas Bitcoin usage especially
ordinal I honestly I know a little less
on the data and also because usage of
the Bitcoin ordinal seem to have St like
they've stemed wrong from um the Asian
side of the world uh so we probably
didn't see it coming as much um so yeah
that's that's another thing uh and if we
look overall if we look
overall sorry what if you click on the
number of O owners of the ranking of
this
nft uh number of owners yeah there's
there's fewer for no monkeys so I guess
it's it's not as spread out but also
those are younger so you know Supply
like holders tend to grow over time so
maybe this is just an impact of them
being younger relative to B Apes
honestly I don't I don't know the
Dynamics exactly of holders on B apes
and not monkeys it's a maybe maybe
there's something there I I honestly
don't know but yeah it's it's probably
more well heavy on not monkeys um but if
you look wait maybe how great can we can
we quickly put in plain words what we're
looking at here was this the last
24-hour trade volume of nftd collections
this is based on last last 30 24 hours
let's look at 30
days uh 30 days it's I mean it's I put
24 hours but it roughly looks the same
even more skew TOS Bitcoin it seems on
you on 30
daysin ones then
just to put this in plain words once for
anyone who's not like uh looking at this
website um oh yeah in the last 30 days
ordinals related collections or like nft
collections on bitcoin are taking up
maybe 10 spots on the top 20 leaderboard
of nft volume in the last 30-day in
nominal Vol or like volume in US dollar
yeah
exactly um it doesn't necessarily mean I
think volume
uh I mean it's hard to find a good
source again for like orinal because
it's hard to be to track it um but I
think volume is comparable uh to
ethereum mainnet volume uh but it it you
know uh overall isn't much higher but it
is higher in terms of uh I guess what
like you know um high value nfts are
going to be more prominent over there uh
and also because I think ethereum
overall hasn't moved all that much for
nfts lately in volume it's been
relatively stable it's grown like
slightly but you know uh relative to
previous uh 2021 highs it's it's much
lower uh we're yet to even come close to
those uh and I think the the the biggest
price moves have got have been like
fudgy Penguins moving up uh over the
past three months and then over the past
month with uh e ethereum going up uh
most of the nfts have gone down because
I'm guessing people are exiting to get
the native assets and also maybe it
remains somewhat stable in USD value um
yeah those are mostly guesses to be
honest so it's just that it Bitcoin
seems a lot more active lately in terms
of nft trading than ethereum uh which is
surprising could we maybe say that like
the nft cycle like there's nft cycle
happening on bitcoin just because they
don't have access to
shitcoins almost like there there's like
there's like so many memec coin and
shitcoin trading happening on on like
sonana and ethereum and I think like on
on bitcoin like even if we look at this
list there's like some brc2 related nfts
or something so maybe this website just
groups them weirdly and like they're
actually just fungible tokens and not
really un like non
fungible it's it's it's a weird thing
but like it it seems to me that almost
like the the meme cycle in Bitcoin is
more like happening on the nft side
rather than on ethereum and and Sana
where it's on the on the like fungible
shitcoin side yeah I agree I think it's
a you know it's not as black and white
as on ethereum where you have a clear
cut between the two um so there's
definitely some of this because you just
can't have uh shitcoins on on bitcoin uh
I mean ic20 is on Bitcoins I guess um so
yeah there's definitely this um but what
I wanted to get at with this ordinal I
didn't really want to talk about ordinal
themselves it was more about like
ordinal was the first practical
application of inscriptions on bitcoin
um but with those actually came other uh
applications which are rollups uh well
rollups uh l2s which can mean a lot of
things but the main uh the main two l2s
on bitcoin which if you look at like tvl
uh now Merlin is at like 2.1 billion in
tvl but I think I had it there uh in
total if you include the OS that bridge
on there there's almost 4 billion uh on
there which is quite a lot um and you
also have B squ uh which is another L2
but this one is yet to launch I think
the difference between the two is uh
Merlin has launched and is on Main net
uh whereas B squ is still on test net
and Merlin is currently in its uh pre uh
is like farming program where people are
essentially mining the the main uh
governance coin that'll come later uh
that is called mer Merl basically um so
that's also why the high tvl I think one
interesting thing is the the reason
these are able to grow so quickly so
such high tvl I mean if you look at like
the tvl chart it's kind of insane that
Spike how it basically uh it started in
like February and like over a month it's
gathered like substantial amount of
money and that's because you like
Bitcoin is just full of like very dond
Capital that's just sitting there and
doing nothing so you might as well
Bridge your bit Bridge your Bitcoin if
you're if you're fine with the risk
factor of bridging it you you might as
well Bridge it to farm another token uh
you know if it wasn't do anything else
in the first place um in that in that
sense it does make sense if if if that's
your goal um yeah we'll see how those
develop I think uh one one interesting
factor is if we look here so here are
the the two recent raises of uh so
Merlin and B squ and I looked through
all those VCS I wanted to see where they
were based and I think it's a really
good proxy for where interest is and
basically all of those there's like 80%
based in Asia uh there's only like up
horest is based in
California uh one based two of them are
based in Kar two in sells uh in the SE
shells uh yeah and then like one in
London and the rest is all uh Singapore
Tokyo Hong Kong Beijing SE uh yeah
it's it's it's basically very
concentrated over in Asia so that's
probably why we I mean it seems very
distant from us all this maybe I don't
know I don't know about you guys do you
guys hear a lot about like Bitcoin l2s
or is it more something like you don't
understand yeah I think kind of all
makes sense because the first time when
I heard about Bitcoin layer to was when
the
Asia people were talking about
inscription and inscription was like
really hot in Asia like and so many like
trading and like look into like Bitcoin
layer to Meb like ahead of time so I
think it's all like chained together
from like the inscription ordinals um
and now there's Bitcoin L too
yeah yeah exactly um it it it all is
related and it's basically this it's
kind of like it feels similar to B&B
maybe where it's another the change that
I don't necessarily understand all that
well uh and it's heavily tied to Asia um
yeah I don't know it's it's it's
interesting I'm definitely curious to
see how those things develop uh for now
for context those are like just selling
ZK proofs on bitcoin through
inscriptions so that's the only thing
that really makes them uh Layer Two so
you know there isn't uh it's it's it's
it's not you're not going to have
optimistic rollups like on uh ethereum
you can you can have those um but you
have uh evm compatible uh
chains and in fact there's even one of
them where people have proposed to
deploy unisoft V3 uh the chain is called
root stock it's a side chain uh so kind
of like Stacks um but it is compatible
and people are already looking into
deploying existing uh ethereum protocols
on bitcoin l2s which I thought was
pretty interesting uh but now this is
all you know very very much like The
Proposal stage I don't know how the
integration actually looks how usable
the chains are I haven't played around
with them uh I think this will take a
bit of time uh before you know we we P
like the the farming stage and where
like we actually see actively used
protocols on there um but it's probably
worth keeping an eye on so M I have a
question so these are Bitcoin layer too
and so do they submit the confirmation
batch back to
bitcoin I guess
Bitcoin I guess there's something you
can submit in Bitcoin chain rather than
value transfer so how is it attached
back to the Bitcoin say cons security or
whatever it's just it's just a ZK proof
uh that's batched like of batched uh a
batched hash of like transaction posted
uh as inscriptions that's basically it
that's that's all there is to it it's
really I could technically deploy now
too if that's you know if those are the
the chain will submit transaction was
inscription back to bitcoin chain yeah
yeah yeah okay got it got it yeah I see
in in the same field that people do
inscriptions now they basically just
post the like either the ZK proof or I
guess you could also post the raw call
data the way that optimism like that the
optimistic proofs do it today for
ethereum yeah I think I think it's on
easy GPR for now and there's any anyone
posting not anymore not call any more
now it's blog
so get of an hour ago but basically
these are independent chains and the
only yeah there's no decentralized
validator sets it's basically the same
kind of like decentralized theater that
we are seeing on ethereum Chains It's
like we are roll up or like we using the
security of Bitcoin and in the end all
they're doing is like they're posting
data on mainnet or like on it's like
inscriptions where the main thing is the
narrative where it's on bitcoin and
that's the biggest chain regardless is
the first one uh and that is bound to
attract people regardless of what we
think uh because we think like this
being in the space but like people out
outside of the space may see this as
like oh I'm going to use the application
that's on bitcoin because that's the
biggest chain and I don't really care
what the hell is going on behind the
scene as long as like I'm told it's
secure I guess I don't know um but it
it's it'll be interesting to monitor how
those developed but I think you know and
this dolman Capital as well uh which you
don't really have on ethereum because
you can already I mean you have an
ethereum but you can already use it on
Main net for all kinds of things that
can't be done on bitcoin it's just
sitting there so you have funds that
maybe you'll have like yield bearing
stuff on on l2s and you know that's
already a huge thing for a huge unlock
for anyone having Capital sitting on
bitcoin and are they mostly optimistic
rollup or like ZK or ZK okay yeah and I
saw that there's like Wormhole bridge
that if you want to like interact your
assets between evm chains with them you
can Bridge it over anyway uh yeah that
is that is possible I honest I don't
know if you say so I trust you but yeah
I'm guessing there Bridges from your
screen just now so oh really wait what
yeah that was in the Unis swap
governance proposal there's also uh T
bit oh you're right you're right yes
sorry yeah yes there there's also T
Bitcoin which I I talked to them at e
they actually have a trustless bridge on
bitcoin so it's kind of like a not
really a smart contract but it's a
wallet that is managed by a Federated
validator set and they basically they
have a kind of trustless Bridge to kind
of bridge your uh assets natively from
Bitcoin the network to another chain um
also also quite interesting and I guess
an alternative to to Wormhole um yeah it
is it is flourishing there's even like
restating protocols starting to pop up
on bitcoin like it's it's it's just
repeating all the narrative hype in
ethereum yeah I think it's an easy
Playbook maybe it's a good career like
decision to go over to bitcoin like
everyone's going to think oh man this
guy is so smart like all you're doing is
like repeating the E
playbooks there's there's people out
there who are farming this like career
career wise at the moment yeah um with
that out of the way I think um what what
what I'm observing over the last couple
weeks is like kind of a split in the
market where like on the one hand we
have like institutional flows which is
like Bitcoin ETFs and then on the other
side there's like a lot of like mem coin
crazy happening and that's mostly
focused on salana um so maybe Dobby
you've been posting these great updates
on the on the Twitter uh on Twitter
regarding the Bitcoin ETF since You'
like you're kind of like the guy to go
to uh for this data so maybe if you
could give us like a high level take of
like what you see and then um Denning
you've you've kind of participated in
the Solana meme meme CRA so maybe if we
can we can see both sides of the
trenches here I think that's like a
really really interesting um like uh
contrast or or comparison that that we
can draw here Dobby is the official
Bitcoin guy for our podcast and I'm the
Sal girl
now damn okay times have changed um it's
yeah Bitcoin ETFs have been interesting
uh I I so if if you look at how ETFs are
traditionally being reported they're
just reported based on like you know
numbers reported out of like Bloomberg
terminal and everything like this the
difference here for Bitcoin ETFs which
as a reminder launched on January 10th
they were approved by the SEC uh and one
of them was U the grayscale Bitcoin
holding which was converted into a
Bitcoin ETF um and since then I've been
looking into the flows and my goal was
uh instead of looking at reporting
numbers I want to look on CH and
actually Snoop around and see okay where
which addresses are holding those trying
to track track the actual flows on chain
and ensure that you know uh because I
think those are more interesting based
on that's just what I like to look at
and you know looking at on chain flows
also adds more context you can see more
metrics uh yeah so there's all kinds of
things that are interesting here so the
the most uh the main thing is going to
be the flows themselves here you can see
how the 10 different ETF assurers have
been seeing flows over the last few
weeks you see how originally you had
like high grayscale out flows and maybe
somewhat High launch influence for the
other atfs which slowly dwindled but
then over the past weeks they've been
back up quite a bit and in fact I think
there's like quite a few that are seeing
like record numbers lately
uh so Fidelity is one of them with
recent really high numbers black rock
also saw really high numbers and like
black rocks just yesterday so the
inflows the flows happen on chain the
next days they they're settled one day
after being traded that is according to
the sec's ruling where you have one day
settle it uh so just yesterday there was
800 million uh and and so much uh for uh
Black Rock which is its alltime again so
it's kind of crazy to see for an ETF uh
these high flows and continuously
breaking alltime highs uh just a few
weeks after launch uh that really rarely
happens and for context we are now at uh
58 billion which is a little over half
uh that of gold ETFs already um but as a
reminder a lot of it comes from
grayscale uh which had a lot of um
Bitcoin uh in its uh Bitcoin trust that
was there for a while prior to ETF being
approved um if you look they had like
600,000 uh Bitcoin they now have they've
sold off a lot of them so now just under
400,000 but interestingly uh in terms of
USD AUM they're almost uh break even
from the start just because of bitcoin's
price uh going up over time so
technically they're just earning as much
fees as they were on launch day which I
think is like the highest at like
1.5% uh so they're doing very well over
there um and so so far 1% of Bitcoins
have moved uh into ETFs which is like I
think out like way out of people's
expectation and that's also what has
driven a lot of the price hike recently
uh if you annualized that number so
currently there's like 4% backing ETFs
4% of the Bitcoin Supply and if you
annualized the past two weeks of flows
uh roughly 8.2% of Bitcoins would be
absorbed uh into uh ETFs which is really
really insane uh it's like it's it has
the impact of uh the haling from uh not
the previous one but the one before so
it's it's quite quite a wild impact on
Supply and why that is uh you know
hasn't been uh seen in a very very long
time um so yeah it's it's kind of
interesting it's kind of cool there's
also we talked about it uh previously
there's there's rumors of the ETF
happening sometimes this year the first
deadline is end of May uh I think uh now
that like speculation is around 20% of
that happening because not much has
happened uh on it and we're just a few
weeks away uh the other next deadline is
going to be in August this one has a
higher probability obviously because
it's further away so maybe things will
have moved by then um but yeah it'll be
interesting to monitor if like the same
happens on ethereum say the 8% number um
did you consider The Happening happening
in
April this is just looking at uh ETFs so
if you if you only look at ETFs and the
flows so
if you the past two week if you look at
I guess those numbers here the past two
weeks and you spread the two weeks onto
a year you would see that 8% is being
absorbed into the uh ETFs does that make
sense like you're the you're saying it's
Bitcoin Supply percent absor absorption
so it's like your denominator is total
Supply Bitcoin right yeah so then like
yeah no I yeah I am facturing oh yeah I
am I am facturing ing uh yeah I am
factoring all the consideration I have
like the model of how the supply is
going to look over time and yeah it's
it's factoring all this I see it's also
kind of interesting to see this like
daily bar chart and it's every five days
there's a bar and there's like two days
missing and there's five days like
they're still operating in the Boomer
banking way you know like only five days
you can even I i' I've now also started
to know a lot more about when banking
holidays are in the US because if you
see there's there's a three day Hall in
the middle that's there was a yeah it
was like President's Day oh right I mean
yeah and yeah so that's that's
interesting it's a it's a big throwback
to the old system um but it's cool to
see it like I thought I think it's kind
of cool to see this kind of bridge
between trefi and crypto uh so yeah
that's that's what stand this analysis
it is kind of maintenance heavy because
every every day I need to look into um
so maybe I can show a quick context how
I look through it um I know that like uh
so Black Rock for now right after this
podcast I'll be looking into where those
800 million uh come from and I I've kind
of familiarized myself with the patterns
and how uh coinbase custody handles them
and you can see how they tend to
increment by round numbers of 600 so
these are wallets I've tagged from
yesterday but if you look at today
you'll see uh wait those are still
yesterday do I see any with 600 and not
tagged okay maybe they haven't popped on
yet but I'll eventually see some with
like 600 and I'll know that those also
all are funded through the same coinbase
uh custody address and you know there's
a pattern to it so that's how I identify
them but it is very manual and I'm up to
right now I'm just under 3,000 addresses
overall that I'm tracking throughout all
the issues um but my goal is to is to
force those issues into disclosing those
addresses and proof of funds because at
the end of the day I like I'm not I
don't want to my goal isn't to dox
everyone at all my goal is here doing so
because uh there's actual investors
behind and who have custody their money
through them so you might as well
leverage this uh this this whole thing
the blockchain enables which is
transparency um you know uh and if you
look now there's only uh 21 shares has
shared a proof of fund so I'm tracking
37,800 uh this should have the yeah so
these are the flows from today so
there's probably a thousand or so
Bitcoin that moved today as well but
otherwise we're in the same ballpark
when I'll have updated every day I check
that I'm on the same number and I am uh
I have a question oh yeah I forgot to sh
here here's the tab was this all these
addresses you labeled are you able to
like label who are the top holder of
Bitcoin on the on channel I I it's it's
a you know it's an individual um I know
how to label Black Rock now because they
have a similar pattern but each of them
have a distinct pattern and how things
are done uh so for now it's all in my
head I know I know what I'm doing
because I've done it so much that
you know now I know what I'm looking for
um but the original idea is you have so
many people who are moving these high
amounts on chain so already that singles
out so many so many wallets um and and
then from there you're just looking for
a set of addresses that matches roughly
the reporting number uh the only problem
is that the reporting numbers are going
to be in dollars and they're going to be
in Dollars Dollar denominated based on
the Bitcoin price from yesterday so I
look at the average price price of
Bitcoin yesterday during trading hours
the average price of today and then I do
what is the ratio between those to like
get a sense of what I'm looking
for yeah but like my my question is like
are you able to say tell people reveal
what's the top 10 Bitcoin holders like
for example like because I've I've heard
like US government and China government
are on the top five like holding Bitcoin
which I I think Arkham Arkham should
have this cuz they're regularly when
they when they shared like their
grayscale um uh sluffing thing where
they found all their Holdings I think
back in September that's when they
discovered that there are
actually in the top five I can't
remember exactly one of the top five
holders of Bitcoin uh and the first one
to actually uh you know associate all
those Holdings to one single uh entity
uh because it's so spread out across
like um the reason why there's so many
addresses is because coinbase custody
spreads out their Holdings by chunks of
like 1,000 Bitcoins or something and
they also regularly shuffle them so
every two weeks or so uh Black Rock is
going to like remove all their addresses
move to all new ones and it's really
annoying but that's how it works it's
just I'm guessing it's for security
purposes of course uh that like you know
that makes a lot of sense and you don't
want to have everything held in one
address and I'm guessing think they have
you know systems that are put in place
to handle all this for them um but it's
interesting to reverse engineer uh this
systems and trying to understand why and
how those work um yeah there's
definitely a lot more work to be done
there even you know if you look at um if
you follow Arkham on Twitter you'll see
them regularly uh doxing new high
entities I think they they recently did
maybe the British government and maybe
the the German one or something uh and
there was like the biggest ethereum
traded product that was finally found on
chain today or yesterday uh in Europe um
and that's also a very very big holder
terms of Bitcoins so you know there's a
lot of stuff to be done in terms of uh
labeling um and labeling in the open
source side is still a very lacking
thing uh you know it's there's a lot of
work to be to be done and I think we can
collaborate on on this idea a lot
more show you guys a bunch of ridiculous
meme from the salana side of
Casino um so I guess are you guys also
trading on salana or at all I I got the
I got the pyop phone
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